1st match. AIWB Lim Minor.

[Cory]

Cross posted in my training journal:

So I pretty much stopped recording dry fire. Plus, the move to Florida has pretty much mirrored my move to Kentucky with trouble finding a regular range to shoot at.

That being said... I shot my first USPSA match ever today. A117824 if you're interested.

My first match was 4 classifiers and 2 field courses. I shot limited-minor from AIWB from a Keepers Concealment holster. JMCK AIWB mag pouch (for a glock). 124gr winchester white box ammo. Beretta OEM 15 round magazines.

First thing I did when I arrived to the match was seek out the match director. I introduced myself, and let him know it was my first match. I told him I wanted to touch base with him because I was shooting AIWB in Limited Minor. I told him I had shot some steel challenge club matches before, was prior service and stuff. Not new to shooting, just new to USPSA. I wanted to make sure he knew in case any ROs had questions. He was fine with it as long as I was in the right division, and just stated make sure that I don't break 180. He was pretty relaxed with it.

I paid the fee and got signed in. I wound up chit chatting with an open shooter before the match got started, and helped move a few things around (target stands). I found out why I couldn't preregister. Apparently the club doesn't use practiscore for registering and instead uses matchsignup.com or something. After the squads were read off, the open shooter I had been chit chatting with turned out to be the primary RO on our squad. That's cool.

I took some ribbing about shooting my junk off, but it was mostly in good nature. After the first stage (6 steel classifier) the junk shooting stuff had less of an edge to it. It was obvious this wasn't my first time shooting and that I'm pretty safe. During the first stage a guy approached me, taught me how to use a tablet to enter scores and walked away. He didn't realize I was a shooter. So when I was "In the hole" I gave it back. He asked if I was shooting, and I revealed the Beretta. "You're shooting from appendix concealed?!?!" and I replied with "Yes, I am." and went and made ready and shot. He talked to me about trying IDPA a lot the rest of the day. I told him I can't shoot AIWB in IDPA but he let me know he had seen it done for years. I smiled.

Stage 2 was another classifier, but this one was turn and draw with some no shoots. I tagged a no shoot twice. I was about 1/4inch low from the Alpha. Dang. That was 2 mikes and 2 no shoots. Oh well.

Stage 3 was Virginia count classifier. 5 reload transition 5. String 2 was pretty much the same. On string 1 I goofed up and shot 6 rounds (thinking of bill drills dang it).

Stage 4 was a mirror stage with reload in the middle. Nothing special on the stage or my performance. I could have tightened up on the 25yd shots. Love the fiber optics though.

Stage 5 was a field course through a shoot house. This is where I really screwed up, but its going to take some real time to improve this mistake. I wound up missing an entire target. I was s busy pasting and "getting advice" that I didn't get a good enough look at the stage and just plane missed it. With only 2 of us seemingly willing to run the tablet it kinda forced me into that role half the time. Other wise this was a decent stage.

Stage 6 was another field course. Once again missed a target. I was first up shooter so it was more a matter of trying to get my look at the stage when their were like 11 other people also trying to look. That sucked. The stage started with 3 pieces of steel, and I'm really comfortable with steel. You hit it and move on. There is no B zone, and dumb as it sounds I like that. But I really need to work on the "game" part of it just as much as my shooting. Knowing my stage plans in the future will help.

Basically I just made rookie mistakes.

After all was said and done I chit chatted guns with that open shooter, and we talked about different ranges and different guns. As I was leaving an older guy from registration asked how I liked the match. I told him I loved it, but thought some were a little put off by me shooting concealment. I was immediately informed I can't carry conceal at this club any time ever. I nodded and said "Oh I didn't know that I've never been here before" to which I got a whole bunch of "Yeah well you can't". Apparently I'm a super danger for carrying a (unloaded) gun at the gun club. Oh well. I suspect this could be trouble from them next month, but I did already get the okay from the match director. Who knows. That wasn't the warmest reception but it was at the end of my match.

I promised Luke video of my first match a long time ago. I only remembered to ask someone to record on the first stage. Sorry. I'm happy to be able to get a classification from my first match, and look forward to seeing how I did. I had alot of low hanging fruit to fix, so I know whatever the classification is it will be easy to improve on. I'm hooked.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7gVc4t7CCg

-Cory

[Alpha Sierra]

"You're shooting from appendix concealed?!?!" and I replied with "Yes, I am." and went and made ready and shot. He talked to me about trying IDPA a lot the rest of the day. I told him I can't shoot AIWB in IDPA but he let me know he had seen it done for years. I smiled.

Why, oh why can't some people stop with the unsolicited (and wrong) advice......

As for the old guy who told you that you may not carry a concealed handgun at that club.....trust but verify, if you even care. I've lost count of the times someone told me some of range "rule" that has nothing to back it up in writing.

You found one of the reasons why I never reveal that I have a pistol hidden on me during casual conversation no matter who it is I'm talking to or where I am.

[miller_man]

Nice man. Good job for getting out there and doing it! I HATE, HATE, HATE forgetting a target - just sucks to loose those points for a target you didn't even get to shoot at. Thankfully it doesn't really happen much anymore - that is the first thing you need to know when you get to a stage- how many targets? Then - what is the start position. There really is a bit of just learning how to shoot a match.

I wouldn't worry about the dude hounding you about concealed carry. He might not have known that even though your carrying concealed, because it's a USPSA match, your unloaded the whole time - until you shoot. I would just roll on with the folks who are running the match.

BTW, did you just decock at the show clear? Looked like you might have. I believe it is a rule that you have to have the hammer down, aka drop the hammer on a clear chamber. I could be wrong.

Anyways good job, get back out there and have fun.

[Cory]

Nice man. Good job for getting out there and doing it! I HATE, HATE, HATE forgetting a target - just sucks to loose those points for a target you didn't even get to shoot at. Thankfully it doesn't really happen much anymore - that is the first thing you need to know when you get to a stage- how many targets? Then - what is the start position. There really is a bit of just learning how to shoot a match.

I wouldn't worry about the dude hounding you about concealed carry. He might not have known that even though your carrying concealed, because it's a USPSA match, your unloaded the whole time - until you shoot. I would just roll on with the folks who are running the match.

BTW, did you just decock at the show clear? Looked like you might have. I believe it is a rule that you have to have the hammer down, aka drop the hammer on a clear chamber. I could be wrong.

Anyways good job, get back out there and have fun.

Yeah, on the 1st field course I would up with a brief walk through because I started on deck, and was one of few pasting. That and getting advice from a pcc guy. The 2nd field course I was first up and just plain missed it with all the people.

I decocked, and my RO said "I get it, so no big deal but others will DQ if you don't pull the trigger" and I pulled it from there on.

The old timers knew it was unloaded. Whatever. This is enough fun I'll drive an hour and a half to another club if it's that big a thing. Hell, I'll tuck a shirt behind it until make ready if thats what they want. I just want to get out there again.

-Cory

[Alpha Sierra]

While I agree with the RO cutting you slack the first time about the decocker, he should have asked you to go through the ULSC procedure one more time.

I would have, not to be a Richard but to follow safety SOP to the letter.

BTW glad you had fun. It is kinda addictive. I took a four year break and now need to catch up.

[taadski]

This is enough fun I'll drive an hour and a half to another club if it's that big a thing....I just want to get out there again.


And so it begins. 😁

Congrats on getting out there. It has been a long time coming!

[Clusterfrack]

Good job dude! Don’t feel bad about missing targets. That’s common for new competitors even if they did spend time memorizing and visualizing their stage plan before shooting. Folks should not have been distracting you right before your turn. Also, who makes the new guy shoot first?

There are a lot of rules, and you don’t need to worry about most of them. Just the Match DQ rules. At yesterday’s match we had a new guy, also with a Beretta. He holstered it hot with the hammer back (no safety) and luckily for him, the guy who was running him didn’t DQ him. I would have.

Is AIWB worth the hassle? A gamer rig can make things so much easier.

[Jim Watson]

DQ for decocking instead of dryfiring at the ULSC would be a real overreaction or the proverbial range Nazi.
All he had to do was tell you to pull the trigger, or, better, run you through the whole ULSC cycle again. I have done so many times for various reasons, most often for the "Speed Unload."

Concealed carry at USPSA is very unusual, although required at IDPA.

AIWB would be OK in Limited, not allowed in Production. Not allowed in IDPA even if somebody says it "has been done for years."

Keeping your loaded BUG on your person during a match is not allowed. Obviously you can get away with it under adequate concealment, but if you should flash, you are done. USPSA rules 2.5, 10.5.7, 10.5.13.

[Cory]

And so it begins. 😁

Congrats on getting out there. It has been a long time coming!

It really has been a long time coming. Turns out, everyone was right. You can't gst ready for your first match by getting good enough.


Is AIWB worth the hassle? A gamer rig can make things so much easier

It is for now. I dont have the gear to play production, and I dont know if I want to. Honestly, the shooting ability seems way more important than the fancy belts. If I can stick with what I'm doing I think I will for a bit.

-Cory

[Alpha Sierra]

DQ for decocking instead of dryfiring at the ULSC would be a real overreaction or the proverbial range Nazi.
It's also a DQ that you can easily beat at arb.

There is no DQ penalty for decocking instead of dropping the hammer by pressing the trigger in chapter 10. The only DQ would be if he cranked out a shot during ULSC (8.3.7.4)

But it's best to avoid the whole mess by knowing and following the procedure.

[GuanoLoco]

Either you love Production (I do) or you don’t. I do.

I have occasionally been inclined to shoot Lim Minor AIWB with a P-09 but I’ver resisted so far.

[Carmen's Dad]

Welcome to USPSA. Hope you have a great time in the association.

[Medusa]

I’m kinda convinced to try production whenever it is I start shooting uspsa, rather than limited. I have a lot of reload practice to do, but then I do anyway.


Either you love Production (I do) or you don’t. I do.

I have occasionally been inclined to shoot Lim Minor AIWB with a P-09 but I’ver resisted so far.

[RyanM]

Nice job Cory. I'm very interested in doing exactly that, shooting limited minor from concealment AIWB. But I'm not sure how some of folks may take it. When I shot Steel Challenge AWIB, I ran into the proverbial RO "Fudd" who told me how "dangerous" AWIB was, how he only concealed carried a revolver, and was running a Serpa with the index finger release for the match. Oh the irony. :rolleyes:

[Cory]

Nice job Cory. I'm very interested in doing exactly that, shooting limited minor from concealment AIWB. But I'm not sure how some of folks may take it. When I shot Steel Challenge AWIB, I ran into the proverbial RO "Fudd" who told me how "dangerous" AWIB was, how he only concealed carried a revolver, and was running a Serpa with the index finger release for the match. Oh the irony. :rolleyes:

I'm not sure I did well, not knowing the game and not engaging targets hurt me pretty bad in the scores.

As far as not knowing how it would be received... I showed up early and volunteered to help out when they need some stuff picked up and moved. I was fortunate to park next to and chit chat with a well liked M class open shooter. Once I found out who the match director was I told him I was shooting Limited Minor AIWB, and that I was an experienced shooter just not an experienced USPSA shooter. I wanted to make sure he knew it was my first match, and what I was doing. I specifically said "I know the rules allow it I just wanted to talk with you incase any ROs have questions about this" and he responded that it was fine.

Had he said it was not fine, I would have been agreeable but provided examples of shooters who are known to shoot AIWB and are classed high, and I would have asked if he could show me the rules on holster placement in Limited Division. I really, really, didn't want to have to try either of those things out. But I think the fact I was very forth coming about my experience (Good: .mil previous outlaw steel challenge Bad: No USPSA) and came to him first made it pretty much a non-issue.

I'm not real concerned with how others take it, as long as I get to go shoot. USPSA association means they have agreed to follow USPSA rule set above all others for the sake of competitive equability. So it shouldn't really be an issue. If I was flat out not allowed, I think I would out my AIWB holster in a SS IWB position for the match. It's not that many draws. Afterwords, I would send some emails asking why I wasn't allowed.

I'm hopefully going to hit up another match tomorrow, but I'm not sure yet. It is beyond addicting and exciting.

-Cory

[Clusterfrack]

How is AIWB more dangerous than an Open gun in a race holster basically in the same position?

[Alpha Sierra]

How is AIWB more dangerous than an Open gun in a race holster basically in the same position?
I know AIWB cultists get all hot and bothered when safety is brought into question, but think hard about the geometry of the two setups that you mention and you will see the answer.

[Alpha Sierra]

USPSA association means they have agreed to follow USPSA rule set above all others for the sake of competitive equability. So it shouldn't really be an issue.

It might be an issue if an unreasonable Range Master invokes 5.2.4

5.2.6 USPSA Competition matches will not require the use of a particular type or brand of holster. However, the Range Master may deem that a competitor’s holster is unsafe and order that it be improved to his satisfaction, failing which it must be withdrawn from the match. Divisions may restrict a specific type of holster. Providing the Division does not restrict the type or physical location of the holster, IWB or concealment holsters are legal, as long as the firearms can safely be drawn and replaced, and so doing does not break any safety rules.

The above does not apply to holstering and drawing per 10.5.5.1 but some dickhead who hates AIWB might still try

[Cory]

It might be an issue if an unreasonable Range Master invokes 5.2.4


Hopefully you don't run into that guy

He could try. And he would win, for that match. He would lose in the long term, because the holster I use is used by others who shoot USPSA from AIWB, and AIWB itself is an acceptable method within USPSA.

You seem very adament in pointing out every worse case possibility repetitively. It's in multiple threads. I'm not sure I find it appealing, but I'm trying to imagine it is somehow created by the emotionless medium of text and isn't your personality.

-Cory

[Alpha Sierra]

He could try. And he would win, for that match. He would lose in the long term, because the holster I use is used by others who shoot USPSA from AIWB, and AIWB itself is an acceptable method within USPSA.

You seem very adament in pointing out every worse case possibility repetitively. It's in multiple threads. I'm not sure I find it appealing, but I'm trying to imagine it is somehow created by the emotionless medium of text and isn't your personality.

-Cory

I'm neutral on the issue of AIWB. I don't do it but don't care if others do. Since you're new to USPSA, I'm trying to give you some intel you can use if you need it.

If help isn't wanted, just let me know.

[Clusterfrack]

I know AIWB cultists get all hot and bothered when safety is brought into question, but think hard about the geometry of the two setups that you mention and you will see the answer.

I don’t know... a properly wedged AIWB holster doesn’t sweep any body parts.

[Cory]

I'm neutral on the issue of AIWB. I don't do it but don't care if others do. Since you're new to USPSA, I'm trying to give you some intel you can use if you need it.

If help isn't wanted, just let me know.

It's welcome and appreciated. I've been following USPSA shooters and USPSA in general for a few years, but am new as a shooter. In other words I'm aware of the rules in general, but not able to specifically state their number and verbatim. So I definitely appreciate someone who can.

I just wanted to give you the heads up that brevity is the sole of wit, but doesn't translate well to text. And being direct is appreciated in person, but appears crass when indirectly communicated. Playing devils advocate or glass half empty eventually wears on folks. Like I said, I do my best to not assume it's personality and instead to take it with benefit of the doubt. I guess it came off wrong. Probably still coming off wrong. That's text for you I guess.


-Cory

[Alpha Sierra]

I don’t know... a properly wedged AIWB holster doesn’t sweep any body parts.

I'll take your word for it cause I ain't looking in there to see for myself.

[YVK]

Glad you eventually got going, Cory. Match mistakes are growing pains, just keep shooting.


ID'ing yourself as a new shooter is a very smart thing to do. I wish people realized that and didn't make you score just before your turn to shoot. As far as AIWB, I have always de-emphasized that. Sanctioned match - RO's responsibilities to run it by the rules; ignorance is also a learning opportunity but not an excuse. However, I have almost always reminded, quietly, to an RO who was running a stage that it was coming out of AIWB when starting position was uprange, and the direction I was moving. ROs do get understandably nervous about uprange starts, and unusual holster position can take to another level. When you show them that you care about their safety, people tend to appreciate that, even if factually you're no more dangerous than people who draw from a strong side.

One more thing that I want to mention. You may have thought this through already, if yes - disregard. USPSA may be the first place, or only place, where you will eventually be required to draw from a seated start. Most cases of AIWB fatalities that I know of were related to handling a loaded gun while seated. Dry fire the hell out of this scenario, even if it is not common. Personally when drawing from appendix seated, I don't put my hand on a gun until I am fully upright.

[Cory]

Glad you eventually got going, Cory. Match mistakes are growing pains, just keep shooting.


ID'ing yourself as a new shooter is a very smart thing to do. I wish people realized that and didn't make you score just before your turn to shoot. As far as AIWB, I have always de-emphasized that. Sanctioned match - RO's responsibilities to run it by the rules; ignorance is also a learning opportunity but not an excuse. However, I have almost always reminded, quietly, to an RO who was running a stage that it was coming out of AIWB when starting position was uprange, and the direction I was moving. ROs do get understandably nervous about uprange starts, and unusual holster position can take to another level. When you show them that you care about their safety, people tend to appreciate that, even if factually you're no more dangerous than people who draw from a strong side.

One more thing that I want to mention. You may have thought this through already, if yes - disregard. USPSA may be the first place, or only place, where you will eventually be required to draw from a seated start. Most cases of AIWB fatalities that I know of were related to handling a loaded gun while seated. Dry fire the hell out of this scenario, even if it is not common. Personally when drawing from appendix seated, I don't put my hand on a gun until I am fully upright.

Really appreciate you chiming in! You're a big part of the reason I got my act together with my reholster and slowed it down.

I hadn't really worked the sitting draw. I may wait until standing to draw if that's an option. Are you ever required to draw and actually fire while seated?

This isn't something I think of as a strong option for self defense. I feel like seated is where AIWB doing a more slow hidden draw may be a better option. I hadn't thought much about speed. I think i'll look more into this.

-Cory

[Alpha Sierra]

Personally when drawing from appendix seated, I don't put my hand on a gun until I am fully upright.
That's not a bad idea no matter where your holster is. The danger is very real even when the holster is on the side.

[YVK]

Are you ever required to draw and actually fire while seated?



Nope. Sitting is a higher risk situation, USPSA doesn't DQ you for sweeping your leg when drawing from sitting but they don't require shooting from sitting.

More so, and tangential to this discussion a bit, but there are stages where you're sitting and gun is loaded on a table in front of you, with all targets available from that position. A lot of folks pick it up and shoot while remaining seated, thinking that this is faster. I don't know of any good shooter who tested it and found that doing it that way gives better hit factors. Most strong shooters learn how to pick it up and get a grip while getting upright, and then crush it.






This isn't something I think of as a strong option for self defense. I feel like seated is where AIWB doing a more slow hidden draw may be a better option. I hadn't thought much about speed.

-Cory

All I think about with appendix and sitting, USPSA or anything else, is safety.

[scw2]

YVK to confirm you’re saying most of those seated injuries are from the draw portion and not reholstering? Due to them getting on the trigger early while standing and sweeping their legs?

[YVK]

That's not a bad idea no matter where your holster is. The danger is very real even when the holster is on the side.

I find that mentally prioritizing standing up and getting a grip correctly gets me to where I am pretty much standing when gun's coming out. There is instructional video of Ben doing a seated start, he is much faster to the gun and with the draw than I am, and he still doesn't get it that far out before he is standing.
I also get my hand on a gun faster with AIWB than strong side when standing up, function of less hand travel and grip being less of a moving target.


@YVK (https://pistol-forum.com/member.php?u=39) to confirm you’re saying most of those seated injuries are from the draw portion and not reholstering?

I don't know the details, reholstering, drawing, or adjusting. I think I've heard of three reports, two for sure, where fatal outcome was related to AIWB gun and sitting in a vehicle. I don't differentiate and consider all sitting AIWB manipulations a high risk.

[Cory]

Posting this here as well... because it seems like this thread is serving as the current AIWB in USPSA thread and this might be food for thought.

From my journal:

Made it to another match. It was like an hour and a half drive but I had to go so I could get classified. I tanked a classifier at the last match, and needed another one.

Nice club. Talked alot with some M class shooters (Single Stack) one of which was the Match Director. Had a great time. Managed to shoot at all the targets this time.

Strong shooters. I didnt place well, but I'm too new to worry about that at the moment. Results:
https://practiscore.com/results/cards/9f92bba2-7e84-40c7-9818-43443ac4481c

Uspsa.org is showing the classifier but it says that the match activity fee has not been paid. Im wondering if the club is still going to pay because I need this classifier for my initial classification.

Anyway... you learn a lot on match day.


https://youtu.be/BlAc8KLoUo4

https://youtu.be/wn1zRM40SwQ

https://youtu.be/0LjinsZiu7w

https://youtu.be/o0WBDq7AF-Y

https://youtu.be/BcsIPmEFHes

-Cory


-Cory

[tyrusasmith]

it seems like this thread is serving as the current AIWB in USPSA thread

Based on the quote from the OP, I hope this is the right place to post this.

After I took a Gabe White class I got interested in skills testing under pressure with my carry gear and decided to try USPSA Lim Minor running AIWB from concealment for my first USPSA match ever. I ended up placing 11th out of 20 in my division and overall had a great time. The stages were fun and I got to take my wife and daughters out to the range to cheer me on. I felt I did as well as I could with the skills I had at the time. I have to work more on focusing on the front sight. Throughout the match I only had 1 miss of the cover garment during draw, and 1 reload that didn't go in the magwell like butter. This was the first time I've ever shot a spinning target ( Irish Plate Rack ) and I think If I'd had more ( any) experience doing that I could have easily placed higher in the standings. I plan to compete in another match in a few months.

Now for the detailed experience with the R.O. and AIWB in USPSA. In short, the head guy didn't know AIWB was legal in USPSA and treated me like my holster and gun was a suicide bomb. Multiple times before the match he said he was going to DQ me for any questionable offense, and his tone came across as he was out to DQ me as a way to dissuade me from AIWB altogether. More bluntly... I'm an idiot for even considering AIWB at all. He said that he would let it slide today, but don't come back here again with that setup.

Read on if you feel compelled to do so...


I followed the advice from Gabe, and this forum to immediately seek out the person in charge to let them know my intentions on gear setup. Next time I'm going to have to call and email in advance just so I can make extra sure I don't catch them off guard. Possibly even get some sort of letter from a higher up?


Specifically before each load and make ready he would threaten me with a DQ for this or that potential issue. ( Although those issues weren't something I'd encounter with the draw technique I've practiced)
On the turn and draw el prez classifier, as I was about to load and make ready, he said that if the muzzle came past him he'd shoot me dead then and there.
As I was on deck for the stage I could here him say to others "there are other organizations for what I'm trying to do, and he doesn't know why I'm even here".
As I was going to run my first draw stage he asked if I needed to tuck my shirt in before making ready. I said, "No sir, I don't intend to." Which was met with a scoff and eye roll so hard I could see it behind his sunglasses.
After the match, I can see in the videos my wife filmed, him talking shit and criticizing my methods behind my back.
After a stage with a reload ( which I did rather quickly) he said, " You know, you don't have to rack the slide after a reload when your first mag isn't empty, you're just dropping rounds on the ground and wasting time." I replied, " Thanks, but I don't think I did that sir." He swore "TO GOD" I did and suggested that when the timer goes off I wouldn't be able to remember anything anyway.... Upon review of the video, I reloaded normally without any extra weapons manipulations.
I heard alot of the southpark "Timmy" catchphrase all day just within earshot.


All in all, I killed him with kindness and gun handling safety second to none. I even placed only 2 slots below him overall out of 53 shooters.
It kind of sucked to have that first match pressure compounded by someone who made it obvious they didn't like what I was doing, and was out to DQ me. That is really the only part that irks me was the discomfort he put on me right as I was getting ready to make ready. I totally lost focus I felt it may have been unnecessary.

As an aside, to give an idea of this guy's attitude. He was wearing a custom shirt that said:
Because I'm
THE [Guy's name here]
that's why.



Overall, I'd recommend USPSA Lim Minor AIWB from concealment as long as you communicate with the head R.O. ahead of the competition.

[45dotACP]

[LIST]
Specifically before each load and make ready he would threaten me with a DQ for this or that potential issue. ( Although those issues weren't something I'd encounter with the draw technique I've practiced)
On the turn and draw el prez classifier, as I was about to load and make ready, he said that if the muzzle came past him he'd shoot me dead then and there.
As I was on deck for the stage I could here him say to others "there are other organizations for what I'm trying to do, and he doesn't know why I'm even here".




Sounds like you encountered a dude who had zero/zilch/nada business being a RO. I'd see if you could get the MD involved because a dude threatening to shoot you is not the kind if attitude USPSA needs to be projecting to the broader firearms community.

Gabe is not unknown in the sport and he has been featured in the major publications of USPSA.

That sort of behavior is unacceptable.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

[Duelist]

Sounds like you encountered a dude who had zero/zilch/nada business being a RO. I'd see if you could get the MD involved because a dude threatening to shoot you is not the kind if attitude USPSA needs to be projecting to the broader firearms community.

Gabe is not unknown in the sport and he has been featured in the major publications of USPSA.

That sort of behavior is unacceptable.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

Agreed. That dude’s behavior would have had me protesting to the match director on another shooter’s behalf, let alone my own, and probably writing a formal complaint to the club president.

[Alpha Sierra]

Based on the quote from the OP, I hope this is the right place to post this.

After I took a Gabe White class I got interested in skills testing under pressure with my carry gear and decided to try USPSA Lim Minor running AIWB from concealment for my first USPSA match ever. I ended up placing 11th out of 20 in my division and overall had a great time. The stages were fun and I got to take my wife and daughters out to the range to cheer me on. I felt I did as well as I could with the skills I had at the time. I have to work more on focusing on the front sight. Throughout the match I only had 1 miss of the cover garment during draw, and 1 reload that didn't go in the magwell like butter. This was the first time I've ever shot a spinning target ( Irish Plate Rack ) and I think If I'd had more ( any) experience doing that I could have easily placed higher in the standings. I plan to compete in another match in a few months.

Now for the detailed experience with the R.O. and AIWB in USPSA. In short, the head guy didn't know AIWB was legal in USPSA and treated me like my holster and gun was a suicide bomb. Multiple times before the match he said he was going to DQ me for any questionable offense, and his tone came across as he was out to DQ me as a way to dissuade me from AIWB altogether. More bluntly... I'm an idiot for even considering AIWB at all. He said that he would let it slide today, but don't come back here again with that setup.

Read on if you feel compelled to do so...


I followed the advice from Gabe, and this forum to immediately seek out the person in charge to let them know my intentions on gear setup. Next time I'm going to have to call and email in advance just so I can make extra sure I don't catch them off guard. Possibly even get some sort of letter from a higher up?


Specifically before each load and make ready he would threaten me with a DQ for this or that potential issue. ( Although those issues weren't something I'd encounter with the draw technique I've practiced)
On the turn and draw el prez classifier, as I was about to load and make ready, he said that if the muzzle came past him he'd shoot me dead then and there.
As I was on deck for the stage I could here him say to others "there are other organizations for what I'm trying to do, and he doesn't know why I'm even here".
As I was going to run my first draw stage he asked if I needed to tuck my shirt in before making ready. I said, "No sir, I don't intend to." Which was met with a scoff and eye roll so hard I could see it behind his sunglasses.
After the match, I can see in the videos my wife filmed, him talking shit and criticizing my methods behind my back.
After a stage with a reload ( which I did rather quickly) he said, " You know, you don't have to rack the slide after a reload when your first mag isn't empty, you're just dropping rounds on the ground and wasting time." I replied, " Thanks, but I don't think I did that sir." He swore "TO GOD" I did and suggested that when the timer goes off I wouldn't be able to remember anything anyway.... Upon review of the video, I reloaded normally without any extra weapons manipulations.
I heard alot of the southpark "Timmy" catchphrase all day just within earshot.


All in all, I killed him with kindness and gun handling safety second to none. I even placed only 2 slots below him overall out of 53 shooters.
It kind of sucked to have that first match pressure compounded by someone who made it obvious they didn't like what I was doing, and was out to DQ me. That is really the only part that irks me was the discomfort he put on me right as I was getting ready to make ready. I totally lost focus I felt it may have been unnecessary.

As an aside, to give an idea of this guy's attitude. He was wearing a custom shirt that said:
Because I'm
THE [Guy's name here]
that's why.



Overall, I'd recommend USPSA Lim Minor AIWB from concealment as long as you communicate with the head R.O. ahead of the competition.

Guys like him need to be run the F out of the sport on a rail.

What's his name and what club was this at?

[taadski]

Guys like him need to be run the F out of the sport on a rail.

What's his name and what club was this at?


Avoiding posting that kind of foolishness is one of the many reasons this place holds a higher standard. Just sayin’.

[Alpha Sierra]

Avoiding posting that kind of foolishness is one of the many reasons this place holds a higher standard. Just sayin’.

I don't consider outing an unprofessional RO to be foolishness. It diminishes the integrity and appeal of the sport. I am certain USPSA HQ would love to know.

Maybe tyrusasmith should express his concerns on doodieproject, a "foolish" forum where such things that affect the sport negatively are taken seriously. Kinda like Paul V Hendricks +2 systematic cheating...…

It's too bad there's no video of tyrusasmith's match. Then we would not only have this guy's face but also audio and video of his outrageous comments.

[taadski]

Good idea. Take it to Doodie Project. :o

And while I’m not making excuses for the clown shoe antics, posting personal info isn’t appropriate in my opinion.

And just to put it out there, ROs aren’t “professionals”, they’re volunteers from all walks. And in a lot of clubs there are slim pickings. But again, no excuses for the behavior. Seems like the OP speaking with the MD would be the best course of action.

[Cory]

Based on the quote from the OP, I hope this is the right place to post this.

Now for the detailed experience with the R.O. and AIWB in USPSA. In short, the head guy didn't know AIWB was legal in USPSA and treated me like my holster and gun was a suicide bomb. Multiple times before the match he said he was going to DQ me for any questionable offense, and his tone came across as he was out to DQ me as a way to dissuade me from AIWB altogether. More bluntly... I'm an idiot for even considering AIWB at all. He said that he would let it slide today, but don't come back here again with that setup.

Read on if you feel compelled to do so...


I followed the advice from Gabe, and this forum to immediately seek out the person in charge to let them know my intentions on gear setup. Next time I'm going to have to call and email in advance just so I can make extra sure I don't catch them off guard. Possibly even get some sort of letter from a higher up?


Specifically before each load and make ready he would threaten me with a DQ for this or that potential issue. ( Although those issues weren't something I'd encounter with the draw technique I've practiced)
On the turn and draw el prez classifier, as I was about to load and make ready, he said that if the muzzle came past him he'd shoot me dead then and there.
As I was on deck for the stage I could here him say to others "there are other organizations for what I'm trying to do, and he doesn't know why I'm even here".
As I was going to run my first draw stage he asked if I needed to tuck my shirt in before making ready. I said, "No sir, I don't intend to." Which was met with a scoff and eye roll so hard I could see it behind his sunglasses.
After the match, I can see in the videos my wife filmed, him talking shit and criticizing my methods behind my back.
After a stage with a reload ( which I did rather quickly) he said, " You know, you don't have to rack the slide after a reload when your first mag isn't empty, you're just dropping rounds on the ground and wasting time." I replied, " Thanks, but I don't think I did that sir." He swore "TO GOD" I did and suggested that when the timer goes off I wouldn't be able to remember anything anyway.... Upon review of the video, I reloaded normally without any extra weapons manipulations.
I heard alot of the southpark "Timmy" catchphrase all day just within earshot.


All in all, I killed him with kindness and gun handling safety second to none. I even placed only 2 slots below him overall out of 53 shooters.
It kind of sucked to have that first match pressure compounded by someone who made it obvious they didn't like what I was doing, and was out to DQ me. That is really the only part that irks me was the discomfort he put on me right as I was getting ready to make ready. I totally lost focus I felt it may have been unnecessary.

As an aside, to give an idea of this guy's attitude. He was wearing a custom shirt that said:
Because I'm
THE [Guy's name here]
that's why.



Overall, I'd recommend USPSA Lim Minor AIWB from concealment as long as you communicate with the head R.O. ahead of the competition.

This is as good a place as any for it.

I'm sorry your experience was so different from mine. I was addressed with caution, and after a single stage it became an entirely non-issue. At 2 different clubs.

The first time someone threatens to shoot me completely unprovoked I would be lodging a formal complaint against them and would press the issue until adequately addressed. USPSA is so much fun, and this just discourages folks from shooting it with the gear they might have.


Avoiding posting that kind of foolishness is one of the many reasons this place holds a higher standard. Just sayin’.

Coming from a doodie, this means more. I'm not sure how this is best addressed but I'm certain that some members here know.

-Cory

[Alpha Sierra]

I encourage tyrusasmith to contact USPSA HQ directly.

If he's not a member, here's a link to the incident report form: https://uspsa.org/viewer/NROI_Incident_Report.pdf

[Clusterfrack]

tyrusasmith, that sucks. In my experience its rare to have such a douchebag RO. You dealt with it well. The MD should be able to help you avoid that kind of treatment in the future.

“Did I break any rules?”

If not you can ask him to please be quiet so you can concentrate on the competition.

[tyrusasmith]

I contacted Mr. Troy McManus, the DNROI for USPSA, for guidance on how I should approach future matches. Within 20 minutes he responded that he would handle the situation, and gave me the pertinent rules below. I'll print out the email and have a copy of the USPSA rule book on hand for future matches. I'll also try to contact the MD and RO days/weeks before the match to give them a heads up on my intentions.



The rules support using an AIWB or any IWB holster, as long as you are meeting division requirements and can safely draw from concealment.
Here are some pertinent rules:

10.5.5.1 Exception – A match disqualification is not applicable for sweeping of the lower extremities (below the belt) while drawing or re-holstering a handgun, provided that the competitor’s fingers are clearly outside of the trigger guard. This exception is only for holstered handguns. Sweeping does not apply to a handgun holstered in compliance with Rules 5.2.1 and 5.2.7.
Appendix D2, #12, #20: No restrictions on type of holster.
This is the important one in this instance:
5.2.6 USPSA Competition matches will not require the use of a particular type or brand of holster. However, the Range Master may deem that a competitor’s holster is unsafe and order that it be improved to his satisfaction, failing which it must be withdrawn from the match. Divisions may restrict a specific type of holster. Providing the Division does not restrict the type or physical location of the holster, IWB or concealment holsters are legal, as long as the firearms can safely be drawn and replaced, and so doing does not break any safety rules.

[nate89]

I'll echo those saying it really is too bad to be treated like that, especially at a first match. Although I shoot carry optics now with a 'gamer' rig, I shot lim minor for about two years, and usually it was with a 226/229 from appendix. If CO rules allowed for appendix carry I'd still do it because that's how I carry. i think I had a bit of an advantage since I knew several of the match regulars already. I still had a couple ROs who would make comments about appendix being either unsafe or slow. Honestly a lot of the comments subsided when I started improving to the point that I was beating many of those making the comments. It's not a reason to practice, but sure is a nice benefit to getting better--makes it easy to pull scores up when someone wants to act like dick.

[Alpha Sierra]

I contacted Mr. Troy McManus, the DNROI for USPSA, for guidance on how I should approach future matches. Within 20 minutes he responded that he would handle the situation, and gave me the pertinent rules below. I'll print out the email and have a copy of the USPSA rule book on hand for future matches. I'll also try to contact the MD and RO days/weeks before the match to give them a heads up on my intentions.



The rules support using an AIWB or any IWB holster, as long as you are meeting division requirements and can safely draw from concealment.
Here are some pertinent rules:

10.5.5.1 Exception – A match disqualification is not applicable for sweeping of the lower extremities (below the belt) while drawing or re-holstering a handgun, provided that the competitor’s fingers are clearly outside of the trigger guard. This exception is only for holstered handguns. Sweeping does not apply to a handgun holstered in compliance with Rules 5.2.1 and 5.2.7.
Appendix D2, #12, #20: No restrictions on type of holster.
This is the important one in this instance:
5.2.6 USPSA Competition matches will not require the use of a particular type or brand of holster. However, the Range Master may deem that a competitor’s holster is unsafe and order that it be improved to his satisfaction, failing which it must be withdrawn from the match. Divisions may restrict a specific type of holster. Providing the Division does not restrict the type or physical location of the holster, IWB or concealment holsters are legal, as long as the firearms can safely be drawn and replaced, and so doing does not break any safety rules.


Unsafe holsters per 5.2.6 are things like holsters that collapse (sausage sacks), SERPAs, holsters that don't cover the trigger, etc. 10.5.5.1 takes care of any "safey" issues with AIWB

[Cory]

A snip from my training log. That post is longer and has videos. I'm still trying to get out there and shoot, and it's still AIWB. I had a bit of consternation from the timer guy (What do you call ROs that aren't real ROs?) but otherwise no issues.



Made it to another match.

About AIWB:

Same club as my first match. I helped set up a bit, briefly mentioned AWIB to the match director while doing so. His reply was pretty relaxed "Yeah, no worries. Just be safe." and then started casually talking about the design of the stage he was making.

Got a great stage plan from someone who seemed to know what they were doing. It was my best stage. Went to the brief, and headed out to my squads stage. I was taping up for other shooters, and was asked if I knew how to run the tablet. I replied with "Kind of but I'm really bad at it" and wasn't asked again. I was kind of relieved. I'm happy to paste, reset, and stuff, but I feel like score keeping really keeps me from learning the stage prior to shooting.

When I stepped up to shoot, I was asked "Where is it?" and I showed the gun prior to Make ready. I got a "Ugh, you can't..." and I said "I already have match director approval to shoot, but you're welcome to ask for him" and his sentence trailed off and was followed by "Make Ready". I holstered in my normal manner: thumb on hammer, dominate side leg back, exaggerated lean, hard look. RO was silent. I shot the stage. "If finished, Unload and show clear. I see clear, Hammer down" I did so. "Now, very very slowly and without flagging yourself reholster". Apparently now that I'm reholstering an empty gun he was looking close for a DQ. I replied with "Absolutely" and reholstered as I had before.

Once again I've found that after watching me shoot a stage all reference to me shooting AIWB becomes very tongue in cheek, and well meant fun. I didn't advertise it between stages or anything, but showed those who asked. There were a few, but none malicious. The match director, Chad, put on a hell of a fun match and it flowed pretty smooth.

I've seen one guy at all 3 matches I've shot (Dan). It's cool to start seeing the same faces and talking shop with them about shooting. Made a new friend named Frank who had spent alot of time at Ft. Drum and saw a NY patch on my shooting bag. This game really brings everyone together even when society makes out like your radically different. You aren't. I guess it's alot like the Army in that way. Either way the folks who play the game all tend to be awesome.


-Cory

Wondering how things went for tyrusasmith. This game is a ton of fun, and it really sucks to see someone who can't give it a shot. If you're being safe and within the rules then you should be good to go.

-Cory

[tyrusasmith]

I plan to shoot only 6 matches per years because other obligations, but it is time once again for signup. Coincidentally I'm able to compete April 28th, and that is the weekend the same club is hosting the match. To prepare for any issues with AIWB, I contacted a member of the board of directors and forwarded him the info from Troy Mcmanus. He passed it along to the entire club's board and they are all aware and agree that as long as I handle the gun safely it shouldn't be a problem. Hopefully it goes smoothly, but I'll try to kill them with safety, kindness ( and a good match performance) again.

I'm planning on going with another Gabe White class alumni Sauer Koch and if I remember correctly it will be his first USPSA match as well. Should be fun!

[Sauer Koch]

Yes, I’ve shot three IDPA matches, but never USPSA, should be fun.

[Alpha Sierra]

Yes, I’ve shot three IDPA matches, but never USPSA, should be fun.

Interested in your opinion of one vs the other. Will tune in next week for that.

[Sauer Koch]

Interested in your opinion of one vs the other. Will tune in next week for that.

Yeah, it’ll be interesting. I’ve seen plenty of USPSA on YT, etc, but it seems more stressful, which isn’t necessarily a bad thing, due to the freedom to shoot the stage however you see fit.
Been shooting my P30 LEM consistently since December, so I’d rather use it, but with this dickhead RO, I’m considering shooting my Grayguns tuned 226, with my OWB Blackpoint Tactical holster. I know USPSA is much more ‘gamey’ than IDPA, but hopefully they don’t get their panties in a wad...

[Medusa]

I’ve done a few idpa matches so far this year, and just did my first USPSA match. Total newbie at everything, unlike others in the thread. I had a lot of fun, and will shoot more of both. Shooting production in USPSA, I can see I need to learn to manage reloads more proactively, can’t just rely on slide lock as one does in idpa. Also, for me it just requires more planning and memorization, as the stages are longer and involve more shooting, more targets ....the stage walkthrough is a bigger deal.

[Alpha Sierra]

Yeah, it’ll be interesting. I’ve seen plenty of USPSA on YT, etc, but it seems more stressful, which isn’t necessarily a bad thing, due to the freedom to shoot the stage however you see fit.
Been shooting my P30 LEM consistently since December, so I’d rather use it, but with this dickhead RO, I’m considering shooting my Grayguns tuned 226, with my OWB Blackpoint Tactical holster. I know USPSA is much more ‘gamey’ than IDPA, but hopefully they don’t get their panties in a wad...

Do what you want within the rules and don't concern yourself with dickheads. ROs do not get to make up rules unless someone lets them do it unchecked.

But depending on how things go it might be smart to have a strong side holster in the range bag. That way a trip to the safe area can fix the issue if that's how you choose to solve it.

I suppose USPSA is more "stressful" because you're not told how to basically deal with the problem. I think that's a plus.

[olstyn]

Shooting production in USPSA, I can see I need to learn to manage reloads more proactively, can’t just rely on slide lock as one does in idpa.

Planning where to reload is probably the most important single thing to learn in USPSA in all divisions except Open and PCC. In Production, Single Stack, and Revolver, this usually translates to "if I'm moving, I should be reloading," but there are some exceptions, depending on stage layout. Welcome to the game! :)

[GJM]

A consideration is trying not to be “that guy.” By “that guy,” I mean the new guy that sucks at the game, doesn’t know any of the other shooters at that club, and shows up shooting concealed at a USPSA match with a holster position that is foreign to most other participants.

Here is the big secret when it comes to USPSA and a fast draw — it hardly matters, except that your draw give you a good grip, because of how varied the start positions are and how many shots are fired after the draw during a typical stage. What does matter is if you shoot yourself because that will mess up the match, or make other shooters concerned. Most other shooters will be a lot more impressed with how fast you tape and reset steel than how fast your draw is.

An alternative is to start shooting with a conventional holster, and after a few matches when people know you, go to concealed. When Pepperoni, for example, shows up concealed everything thinks this is neat, because of how well he shoots and how he handles his Beretta — plus they hope concealed may slow him down a bit.

[Sauer Koch]

A consideration is trying not to be “that guy.” By “that guy,” I mean the new guy that sucks at the game, doesn’t know any of the other shooters at that club, and shows up shooting concealed at a USPSA match with a holster position that is foreign to most other participants.


That sounds very elitist, and not the most inviting set of conditions for a newbie.

How can I be good at something I've never done...of course I'm going to suck. Yes, I've shot IDPA, but I know it's quite different. I've never been to this club, so no, I don't know anyone at all, other than knowing 'of' a particular asshole RO. I'm not going to buy a bunch of USPSA-specific gear, just to go try this out.

I'm going primarily to support my friend Tyrus, and just want to look into it, but if my carry gear isn't good enough, then I'll gladly shoot elsewhere.

[HopetonBrown]

I'm not going to buy a bunch of USPSA-specific gear, just to go try this out.

Just shoot your IDPA gear, bro-ham.




But if my carry gear isn't good enough, then I'll gladly shoot elsewhere.

Aww, don't take your ball and go home!

GJM is trying to help you navigate through life. Go to the USPSA match with your IDPA gear. Go early, help set up. Make friends. During the match help paste and reset. Do this 2 or 3 times, then bust out your cool guy gear. This strategy can be used in many aspects in life as well.

Why are we getting so many upset AIWB guys lately?

[Sauer Koch]

Just shoot your IDPA gear, bro-ham.




Aww, don't take your ball and go home!

GJM is trying to help you navigate through life. Go to the USPSA match with your IDPA gear. Go early, help set up. Make friends. During the match help paste and reset. Do this 2 or 3 times, then bust out your cool guy gear. This strategy can be used in many aspects in life as well.

Why are we getting so many upset AIWB guys lately?

First, I'm not an AIWB guy, so that isn't an issue, but I'm not running gamer gear either, it'll be OWB Kydex holster at 4:00.

I do all those things you said, I'm all about helping out, so we shall see...

[Alpha Sierra]

That sounds very elitist, and not the most inviting set of conditions for a newbie.

How can I be good at something I've never done...of course I'm going to suck. Yes, I've shot IDPA, but I know it's quite different. I've never been to this club, so no, I don't know anyone at all, other than knowing 'of' a particular asshole RO. I'm not going to buy a bunch of USPSA-specific gear, just to go try this out.

I'm going primarily to support my friend Tyrus, and just want to look into it, but if my carry gear isn't good enough, then I'll gladly shoot elsewhere.

It took me two or three passes to get GJM meaning but I think his point is this, for the first few times you go to a particular club in your area do the following:

Show up with gear that is familiar to everyone
Don't shoot from concealment
Get people to know you by being safe and courteous


By "gear that is familiar to everyone" I mean a basic strong side OWB holster and some basic mag pouches on your off side. It's gear that you can easily conceal under an untucked shirt, but visible and in positions on your body that everyone is used to seeing.

Once people know who you are and that you're basically a safe and competent shooter, switching to AIWB from concealment won't raise any concerns in anyone's mind.

[tyrusasmith]

A consideration is trying not to be “that guy.”

I see where you're coming from and I considered that approach, but I'm such a die-hard all or nothing kind of guy. I busted ass to loose 65 lbs just to appendix carry. Then dry fired 50-100 hours in 50 days to earn a Light Pin at Gabe White's Class. Now, I'm using USPSA just as objective metric to keep my dry fire and personal range motivation up (plus it is fun). I want 1 gun and 1 gear setup, and I want to be good with it. On top of that, with my match schedule ( 6 per year) it would take forever for me to be a known entity at any of the 5-6 clubs within driving range. I have to wait for a weekend to open up, then pray there is a match. Not the other way around. I put it in my head to do the work with the club staff to make sure my setup won't cause trouble for them, and I'm refining my communication so I don't run into problems at other clubs. I'll put on my thick skin to take the Timmy comments in stride and as Coach Klein, the famous Louisiana football coach, said, "Use it as tacklin fuel" to safely beat as many nay-sayers at their own game.

In short, for me, the time it would take to do it like a normal person is more valuable than the headache I'll have to endure for being "that guy".

Thanks for the advice though. It is good to see the perspective of someone who has been doing it well for a while.



Sauer Koch hell man, you were fast enough with your HK gear to earn a pin at Gabe's class and didn't get scolded for unsafe handling. If you run your HK gear with your shirt tucked in you'll look like a normal person next to me.

[Sauer Koch]

It took me two or three passes to get GJM meaning but I think his point is this, for the first few times you go to a particular club in your area do the following:

Show up with gear that is familiar to everyone
Don't shoot from concealment
Get people to know you by being safe and courteous


By "gear that is familiar to everyone" I mean a basic strong side OWB holster and some basic mag pouches on your off side. It's gear that you can easily conceal under an untucked shirt, but visible and in positions on your body that everyone is used to seeing.

Once people know who you are and that you're basically a safe and competent shooter, switching to AIWB from concealment won't raise any concerns in anyone's mind.

I agree with all that. I'm fine NOT shooting from concealment, and as I said above, I don't shoot AIWB. My gear setup is just as you described, shooting a 226. I'm all about being safe, again no argument there.

[tyrusasmith]

Why are we getting so many upset AIWB guys lately?

I think it may only be 2 threads that I'm participating in and bumping. I'm not trying to grind an axe or anything, just getting perspectives from seasoned shooters and relaying my experience.

[Alpha Sierra]

1. dry fired 50-100 hours in 50 days to earn a Light Pin at Gabe White's Class.

2. with my match schedule ( 6 per year) it would take forever for me to be a known entity at any of the 5-6 clubs within driving range.

3. I'll put on my thick skin to take the Timmy comments in stride and as Coach Klein, the famous Louisiana football coach, said, "Use it as tacklin fuel" to safely beat as many nay-sayers at their own game.

Just a few final comments
1. Your ability to draw lightning fast and rip wicked splits is not what will carry the day. There are other technical elements involved that will affect your hit factor significantly more than stand and shoot skills. 99% of the gun classes out there never teach that stuff.

2. You can become a "known entity" real fast (much faster than you might assume) if you're open and friendly with your squad. You are highly likely to run into them again if you're shooting your local area.

3. I think you're overdramatizing what will happen

AAR required early next week

[JSGlock34]

My typical monthly USPSA match has 4-5 stages. So, that’s 4-5 draws for an entire match. On the other hand, I’ll pull the trigger 20x more over the course of a match. To me the “training” benefit is getting out of the range booth and moving through a stage with a pistol in my hand, and making hard shots under competitive conditions.

[tyrusasmith]

Just a few final comments
1. Your ability to draw lightning fast and rip wicked splits is not what will carry the day. There are other technical elements involved that will affect your hit factor significantly more than stand and shoot skills. 99% of the gun classes out there never teach that stuff.

2. You can become a "known entity" real fast (much faster than you might assume) if you're open and friendly with your squad. You are highly likely to run into them again if you're shooting your local area.

3. I think you're overdramatizing what will happen

AAR required early next week

1a. I'm not hung up on AIWB for the draw, mostly for the "this is how I carry normally, and it fits within the rules" aspect. Dry fire for me isn't just about drawing and trigger control. I did a ton of different drills developed by Ben Stoeger, Tim Herron, and Steve Anderson. All in all, I'd put those 50+ hours at about 40% draw/pin run practice ( I wanted to ingrain a safe AIWB draw before going to class), 20% target transitions, 20% movement, and the other 20% into "other". That other stuff was reloads, table pickups, weird positions, etc. I sought out USPSA type dry fire drills specifically because those would help me out being a fundamentally better shooter both in the class, in USPSA later on, and in everyday life. The only thing they don't help with is cover.

1b. Pistol Shooting Solutions is a freaking great class that has alot of movement, transitions, shooting on the move and other skills. Most specifically in the man v man drills. I do also plan to take a Tim Herron, Steve Anderson, and/or Ben Stoeger class after I get a good lay of the land in USPSA.

2. I consider myself to be a friendly helpful guy, and I've already got some rapport (and seemingly left a good impression) with one of the club's board members. He gave me some great tips for targets I've never seen before. I hope your're right, but I'm prepared for the alternative based on my schedule.

3. My first match was awesome besides the harassing from the R.O. The next match isn't until April 28th. Here is the AAR from the first match if anyone cares to read it. https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?35558-1st-match-AWIB-Lim-Minor&p=862291&viewfull=1#post862291

[Mr_White]

I’ll try to keep this as lean as possible because there are a whole lot of things that have been brought up in this thread.

First, tyrusasmith, I’m really sorry you had that bad RO experience. From what you reported, that guy is completely and utterly wrong, particularly in threatening to shoot you (unbelievable!) I mean that in the general sense – I do believe you. I think you are taking the best possible approach in being extremely polite and cooperative and an exemplar of safety, while still doing things the way you want. I would also have complained to both the MD and DNROI if I had an RO act as you reported.

Some places don’t really know the legality of AIWB in USPSA because it doesn’t come up much. A USPSA club is required to adhere to USPSA rules though, and the BOD itself has ruled that AIWB is legal in Open, Limited, and Limited-10. It’s been quite a while now, but they made it very clear a number of years ago. I just tried, but was not able to locate the actual ruling to send to you. Sorry, I wish I could have found it. I’m sure DNROI is aware though. An RO should NOT be able to ‘deem a holster unsafe’ solely based on it being AIWB – as long as the holster is otherwise of standard safe design. By that I mean normal IWB holsters with appendix optimizations, such as the Keepers, JM, Dark Star, etc. Something nonstandard, like a trigger guard only holster for example, might be different.

I’ve been lucky that I shoot USPSA in a region where we have many current and former match/section/area directors, as well as high level ROs, so the rules were quite well known when I started here and I had no trouble. Sometimes when I go to a match further away where people don’t know me, I have to have some extra conversations with ROs, but none have gone badly over AIWB. It’s usually been related to them telling me my holster position isn’t legal because they see my Glock and think I’m shooting Production (where AIWB isn’t legal.) When they find out I’m in Limited, it’s all good. And then they see my back plate flapping and I have to explain to them about the Gadget and that my Glock is not in fact in the middle of breaking. :)

As others have said, the main thing they are concerned about is safety. Of the sketchy gunhandlers that show up at USPSA, most of the ones I have seen were ill-founded tactical guys with oddball gear. So you are right to simply be kind and patient with them while giving them the opportunity to see that you are very safe. The more they see that, and further, that you are a competent shooter too, I don’t think your problems will continue.

Those who have said that the draw is only a very small part of USPSA are absolutely correct. It is a perfectly valid path to just shoot gamer gear in the game and then practice separately with your carry gear. I certainly understand you and Sauer Koch wanting to not go the game gear route. I’m not interested either. That being said, one of the things I most deeply appreciate about USPSA is their effective ‘big tent’ philosophy baked into the rules that allow us AWIB folks to compete as we carry, since in a great irony of life, IDPA is dead set against us doing so.

[Mr_White]

cor_man257

There is a rough custom that we have in my area with regard to shooter/stage flow. This is what I’ve seen elsewhere as well, though I certainly can’t say it isn’t different somewhere else.

When your squad gets to a stage and the previous squad is all finished, someone reads the written stage briefing, then there is a 5-minute period to walk through the stage and make your plan. Your plan needs to be completed and burned into your mind by the end of this period, because it is the only dedicated time you are likely to have for that.

When you are either ROing or running the tablet/scoring, it is time to call for someone else to do it when you are 2-3 shooters away from your turn. It is improper (I’m not saying there is any official rule regarding this) for no one to be willing to take over those responsibilities, which must be shared among the squad. You then are roughly exempted from pasting and resetting the stage while you then visualize your plan over and over. If you were pasting/resetting, it’s the same thing when you are 2-3 shooters away from your turn, though you just step away from it and don’t have to call for someone to replace you.

When you are the next shooter, you are definitely exempted from pasting and resetting, and while they are scoring the shooter right before you, it is your last chance to walk through the stage. Other shooters trying to sneak walk throughs in during this time can do so, but they need to get out of your way because you have the priority as the next shooter.

After your turn shooting, you are also exempted from pasting and resetting, because you need to go refill your magazines and otherwise deal with your gear so you are ready when your next turn to shoot comes.

When you are not about to take your turn shooting, taking your turn shooting, or dealing with your gear right after taking your turn shooting, you need to be either helping paste and reset the stage, ROing, or running the tablet/scoring.

That’s how it works and it’s a good informal system. Usually you have one or a few people who are certified ROs or at least very up on the rules, and those people take the most turns running the timer and the tablet, and everyone else tends to help with pasting and resetting the stage. That’s normal and doesn’t mess anything up as long as everyone is doing something useful.

[45dotACP]

Probably the most frustrating thing about IDPA is the inability to run AIWB, because some of the rule set notwithstanding, I am actually sort of a fan of the concealed start and the lower round count stages although I'd love to see longer, more difficult shots.

Otherwise, I actually don't mind IDPA that much. I do consider it the last great stronghold of the service revolver and I'm growing more fond of wheelguns.

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

[Alpha Sierra]

, I actually don't mind IDPA that much. I do consider it the last great stronghold of the service revolver and I'm growing more fond of wheelguns.

I thought so too but in the local IDPA matches that do their signup and squadding in Practiscore I typically see none and if I do see some, it's never more than three total.

As much as I like revolvers, and they are what I started carrying and competing with, I'm pretty much sticking with SSP and Production at least for this entire season.

[Cory]

cor_man257

There is a rough custom that we have in my area with regard to shooter/stage flow. This is what I’ve seen elsewhere as well, though I certainly can’t say it isn’t different somewhere else.

When your squad gets to a stage and the previous squad is all finished, someone reads the written stage briefing, then there is a 5-minute period to walk through the stage and make your plan. Your plan needs to be completed and burned into your mind by the end of this period, because it is the only dedicated time you are likely to have for that.

When you are either ROing or running the tablet/scoring, it is time to call for someone else to do it when you are 2-3 shooters away from your turn. It is improper (I’m not saying there is any official rule regarding this) for no one to be willing to take over those responsibilities, which must be shared among the squad. You then are roughly exempted from pasting and resetting the stage while you then visualize your plan over and over. If you were pasting/resetting, it’s the same thing when you are 2-3 shooters away from your turn, though you just step away from it and don’t have to call for someone to replace you.

When you are the next shooter, you are definitely exempted from pasting and resetting, and while they are scoring the shooter right before you, it is your last chance to walk through the stage. Other shooters trying to sneak walk throughs in during this time can do so, but they need to get out of your way because you have the priority as the next shooter.

After your turn shooting, you are also exempted from pasting and resetting, because you need to go refill your magazines and otherwise deal with your gear so you are ready when your next turn to shoot comes.

When you are not about to take your turn shooting, taking your turn shooting, or dealing with your gear right after taking your turn shooting, you need to be either helping paste and reset the stage, ROing, or running the tablet/scoring.

That’s how it works and it’s a good informal system. Usually you have one or a few people who are certified ROs or at least very up on the rules, and those people take the most turns running the timer and the tablet, and everyone else tends to help with pasting and resetting the stage. That’s normal and doesn’t mess anything up as long as everyone is doing something useful.

I appreciate this alot.

Seems sort of similar to how my 3 matches so far have gone. The major difference being there is no real walk through. It's more of a there are the targets okay lets shoot. Perhaps it only feels that way because I'm such a novice at planning a stage.

I would highly agree that it's improper for no one to be willing to take over when someone is on deck. I think me being asked to score immediately has a lot to do with the concealment thing. On the first stage everyone assumes I'm just an observer not a shooter and thus might as well score.

I've also noticed that without fail you'll have 3 shooters who paste, shoot, load mags, and paste again while the others gab.

I'll keep picking up on the etiquette as I go, but it seems to boil down to don't be a jerk to othera and help out. Like any group of people some don't do great at following norms.

-Cory

[Mr_White]

I appreciate this alot.

Seems sort of similar to how my 3 matches so far have gone. The major difference being there is no real walk through. It's more of a there are the targets okay lets shoot. Perhaps it only feels that way because I'm such a novice at planning a stage.

I would highly agree that it's improper for no one to be willing to take over when someone is on deck. I think me being asked to score immediately has a lot to do with the concealment thing. On the first stage everyone assumes I'm just an observer not a shooter and thus might as well score.

I've also noticed that without fail you'll have 3 shooters who paste, shoot, load mags, and paste again while the others gab.

I'll keep picking up on the etiquette as I go, but it seems to boil down to don't be a jerk to othera and help out. Like any group of people some don't do great at following norms.

-Cory

The part about reading the written stage briefing to the squad, followed by a 5-minute walk-through period is actually a rule, so that should definitely happen at least. I've heard about some places/clubs that have problems with people not helping tape sometimes. It's pretty uncommon here, but generally if we are short of tapers, I yell out in command voice "NEED MOAR TAPERS" without even looking back at anyone - a few more people always materialize. Sometimes folks are just engrossed in conversation and didn't pay enough attention to notice that there weren't enough others doing it.

[OldRunner/CSAT Neighbor]

The part about reading the written stage briefing to the squad, followed by a 5-minute walk-through period is actually a rule, so that should definitely happen at least. I've heard about some places/clubs that have problems with people not helping tape sometimes. It's pretty uncommon here, but generally if we are short of tapers, I yell out in command voice "NEED MOAR TAPERS" without even looking back at anyone - a few more people always materialize. Sometimes folks are just engrossed in conversation and didn't pay enough attention to notice that there weren't enough others doing it.

As always Gabe’s throwing down much wisdom here & as a long time 2ndry RO running the tablet, that command voice "NEED MOAR TAPERS" has been spoken/growled more Xs than I care to remember.

[olstyn]

Sometimes folks are just engrossed in conversation and didn't pay enough attention to notice that there weren't enough others doing it.

I think it would be difficult to find someone who has not been guilty of that at least occasionally, especially on low round count stages with big squads where there just isn't room for everyone to help with pasting & resetting. :)

[Alpha Sierra]

The major difference being there is no real walk through. It's more of a there are the targets okay lets shoot. Perhaps it only feels that way because I'm such a novice at planning a stage.

It may be because of you being new. Stage breakdown and planning is one of those things that you need to learn by shooting matches unless you happen to be lucky enough to belong to a club where there is stuff available to setup practice stages.

[Yung]

jetfire's latest video is gospel.

https://youtu.be/Jotti0zvgr8

[Alpha Sierra]

jetfire's latest video is gospel.

https://youtu.be/Jotti0zvgr8

1. 24 round max limit for a stage: yes
2. 15 round max limit for SSP and CO: Don't care one way or the other. I do think that USPSA letting carry optics use mag rules similar to limited is a mistake.
3. Appendix carry: don't care one way or the other

I do agree with Caleb that IDPA's rules regarding holster and ammo carrier location are stupid. The rule should be simple: you can wear them wherever you want if you can conceal them with the garment you choose to wear. That simple wording forces shooters to deal with the consequences of the concealment garment they choose to use. Those who use gamer vests have limited themselves as to where they can wear their holster and/or ammo carriers by the design of their garment. Those who choose to use a normal closed front shirt to untuck over their gear can reap the benefits of more coverage by getting more freedom to place their stuff on their belt.

The concealment test would still be the same: face the RO and raise your arms straight out to the sides. If the RO can see something on your belt, it's not legal. If he can't then it is.

[Mike C]

Hard to argue with allowing AIWB and carrying of ammunition anywhere on the body. I'm sure some would though, not sure if it would be more of an argument on safety as much as it would be possible advantages/percieved advantages. If AIWB were allowed I do think it would be prudent to require a specific type of holster i.e. nothing collapsable.

[Alpha Sierra]

Hard to argue with allowing AIWB and carrying of ammunition anywhere on the body. I'm sure some would though, not sure if it would be more of an argument on safety as much as it would be possible advantages/percieved advantages.

When it comes to IDPA, concealed carry is their model. Every equipment decision in the rules should flow from that model. That's why my ideal rule for equipment placement should be: if you can conceal it, it doesn't matter where on the belt you place it. By keeping it that simple you open possibilities for improvement in concealed carry gear and techniques and you force competitors to make trade-offs between equipment location and concealment garment that are based on the sport's model.

Want an easy to sweep, open front garment? Cool. Just can't wear stuff right up front where they can't be hidden.

Want to wear your holster or mags closer to centerline? Cool. Just can't wear a gamer vest that would expose them.

But such a rule will never get adopted because it wasn't invented by the IDPA leadership.

[tyrusasmith]

AAR required early next week
2nd USPSA match went well. Shot my P229, Limited Minor, AIWB from concealment again, although 3/5 stages this match were table starts. The problem R.O. from last match "said his piece" during the pre-match safety brief, but I didn't give him what he wanted, and the other R.O.s were super cool. Video below annotated with my after stage notes for my own record and improvement.

9th/37 Overall
3rd/12 Limited
2nd/30 B Class & Below
1st/23 C Class & Below
78.5% A zone hits

Special thanks to Sauer Koch for filming and competing with me in the match. He did great for a first time USPSA shooter!

https://youtu.be/1FOU5zb6vBo

[Sauer Koch]

Again, congrats, it was cool watching you out there! Another reminder of how I need to step up my game. You’re very methodical, so with a little more time, you’ll be moving up the ranks quickly.

[OldRunner/CSAT Neighbor]

2nd USPSA match went well. Shot my P229, Limited Minor, AIWB from concealment again, although 3/5 stages this match were table starts. The problem R.O. from last match "said his piece" during the pre-match safety brief, but I didn't give him what he wanted, and the other R.O.s were super cool. Video below annotated with my after stage notes for my own record and improvement.

9th/37 Overall
3rd/12 Limited
2nd/30 B Class & Below
1st/23 C Class & Below
78.5% A zone hits

Special thanks to Sauer Koch for filming and competing with me in the match. He did great for a first time USPSA shooter!

https://youtu.be/1FOU5zb6vBo

Nicely done Tyrus & also good to see I wasn't the only AIWB shooter using a cover shirt this wknd in La. as we had our monthly USPSA match @ Jerry's Sun. in Bossier parish.

[Mr_White]

2nd USPSA match went well. Shot my P229, Limited Minor, AIWB from concealment again, although 3/5 stages this match were table starts. The problem R.O. from last match "said his piece" during the pre-match safety brief, but I didn't give him what he wanted, and the other R.O.s were super cool. Video below annotated with my after stage notes for my own record and improvement.

9th/37 Overall
3rd/12 Limited
2nd/30 B Class & Below
1st/23 C Class & Below
78.5% A zone hits

Special thanks to Sauer Koch for filming and competing with me in the match. He did great for a first time USPSA shooter!

https://youtu.be/1FOU5zb6vBo

Tyrus, that is awesome! Nice job and thanks for posting your report, as well as for your patience as the ROs at the particular club your competing at realize that you don't need any extra attention. You are doing more than your part in the unification of the technical and tactical worlds. :)

Glad to see you and Sauer Koch made it out to the match, and I hope you both had a great time!

[Mr_White]

Had a really fun return to USPSA this last Saturday. It took me a few stages to feel less rusty, and in all reality, I probably still am rusty. But, the really important thing was that I had a lot of fun and enjoyed the match, the shooting, and the people very much! That’s what I was hoping for more than anything. As I shot the match, I really thought that two of the Limited shooters I was squadded with had me beat. It turns out I was wrong and I actually won Limited. That was a very nice surprise later in the day when I was home telling my son I was sure I had not won this particular match, and right then a message came through from my friend telling me I had won.

Limited results: https://www.practiscore.com/results/new/80082?q_division=2

Combined results: https://www.practiscore.com/results/new/80082

Match video:

https://youtu.be/dp5Blyflk6w

[Sauer Koch]

It was a little different from what I'm used to (IDPA), but nothing drastic, so in the end, it was a lot of fun. The RO's we had were awesome, very helpful, and joking around keeping things fun. Max Michel Sr. shoots at this club, but he was in another squad, so we only got to see him shoot one stage.

A good time for sure.

[Sauer Koch]

Congrats Mr_White on your win!

[Cory]

Had a really fun return to USPSA this last Saturday. It took me a few stages to feel less rusty, and in all reality, I probably still am rusty. But, the really important thing was that I had a lot of fun and enjoyed the match, the shooting, and the people very much! That’s what I was hoping for more than anything. As I shot the match, I really thought that two of the Limited shooters I was squadded with had me beat. It turns out I was wrong and I actually won Limited. That was a very nice surprise later in the day when I was home telling my son I was sure I had not won this particular match, and right then a message came through from my friend telling me I had won.

Limited results: https://www.practiscore.com/results/new/80082?q_division=2

Combined results: https://www.practiscore.com/results/new/80082

Match video:

https://youtu.be/dp5Blyflk6w

Wow, your on the move shots look so smooth. And you transition so much better than me. It's amazing that when I look at someone better than me shooting USPSA it isn't the AIWB aspect that leaves me in awe. It's the shooting. It just matters so much more.

I've really got to make it out to a class with you at some point. Not so I can move up from C class, but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't hurt my classification either lol.

Thanks for posting.

-Cory

[OldRunner/CSAT Neighbor]

Wow, your on the move shots look so smooth. And you transition so much better than me. It's amazing that when I look at someone better than me shooting USPSA it isn't the AIWB aspect that leaves me in awe. It's the shooting. It just matters so much more.

I've really got to make it out to a class with you at some point. Not so I can move up from C class, but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't hurt my classification either lol.

Thanks for posting.

-Cory

As a fellow C class shooter I can relate on both counts Cory & also have my 1st class w/ Gabe booked for November when he's in Dallas.

[tyrusasmith]

Nicely done Tyrus & also good to see I wasn't the only AIWB shooter using a cover shirt this wknd in La. as we had our monthly USPSA match @ Jerry's Sun. in Bossier parish.
Thanks, I might go take a ride up there for a match one weekend. At least you've done the legwork to get the R.O.s familiar with concealment in USPSA.


Tyrus, that is awesome! Nice job and thanks for posting your report, as well as for your patience as the ROs at the particular club your competing at realize that you don't need any extra attention. You are doing more than your part in the unification of the technical and tactical worlds. :)

Glad to see you and Sauer Koch made it out to the match, and I hope you both had a great time!
Yep, we both had a great time. I want to thank you again for providing me, through your class and pin awards, a very difficult set of goals to try to attain. The Light Pin ranks in the top 3 for the hardest thing I've worked for in my life. Through that I realized the importance, challenge, and enjoyment of focused dry and live fire. Before working towards a practicing for you class, my shooting was always limited by budget and I thought I had to spend money to practice, now I can get better for almost free.

I'm really pumped to take those skills into a more frequent, objectively measurable testing environment all the while running as close to a gear setup to my normal stuff as possible. Thanks again for helping pave the way for myself and others to do the same.

[Cory]

So looks like I'll be shooting Saturday in Volusia County FL for a matched hosted by Extreme GM. That's i guess a duo of Gorka Ibanez and Manny Bragg.

Gotta drive 2 hours 15 minutes to get to the match, and register by 830ish AM. So I guess I've got the bug.

The cool part? Looks like the MD from my local club will be in my squad. He's a Master in production and A in limited. Hopefully a lot to learn from being on his squad.

-Cory

[Alpha Sierra]

You guys might enjoy this

https://youtu.be/SXp0sX24wd4

[GJM]

You guys might enjoy this

https://youtu.be/SXp0sX24wd4

This guy is a strong shooter and friend of YVK. Pretty sure he shoots a P09 in .40, as I remember hearing he broke two P09’s in one match.

At the two day match I was at last weekend, Travis Mccamish, was in my squad. He is a multi division GM, and shot a Glock 19 with an RMR from concealed appendix, in Open division. Travis is in a timmie mode, and Open is the only division he can compete in with a CO pistol from appendix.

[tyrusasmith]

You guys might enjoy this

That's pretty slick. I'm set up to shoot another match in June, I've got the bug real bad as well.
I have this urge to keep getting more gamey, so I bought these new Inov-8 mudglaw g series instead of changing my gun setup. To many JJ videos make we want to move fast.

38418

[tyrusasmith]

This guy is a strong shooter and friend of YVK. Pretty sure he shoots a P09 in .40, as I remember hearing he broke two P09’s in one match.

At the two day match I was at last weekend, Travis Mccamish, was in my squad. He is a multi division GM, and shot a Glock 19 with an RMR from concealed appendix, in Open division. Travis is in a timmie mode, and Open is the only division he can compete in with a CO pistol from appendix.

I'm considering a red dot for my P229, more specifically an ACRO. Do you think it would be easier to move up in class shooting lim minor with irons, or open minor with an acro?

I'm excited about shooting like I carry, and I'm interested in the acro, but I'm concerned that moving up in class would be unnecessarily difficult in open. My eyes are still decent right now, so I'm not forced that way at the moment. I'm also torn between the "shoot like a man with irons" mentality vs the " dots are the future, jump in early" mentality.

[Mr_White]

So looks like I'll be shooting Saturday in Volusia County FL for a matched hosted by Extreme GM. That's i guess a duo of Gorka Ibanez and Manny Bragg.

Gotta drive 2 hours 15 minutes to get to the match, and register by 830ish AM. So I guess I've got the bug.

The cool part? Looks like the MD from my local club will be in my squad. He's a Master in production and A in limited. Hopefully a lot to learn from being on his squad.

-Cory

If you think of it, extend my regards to Manny!

[GJM]

I'm considering a red dot for my P229, more specifically an ACRO. Do you think it would be easier to move up in class shooting lim minor with irons, or open minor with an acro?

I'm excited about shooting like I carry, and I'm interested in the acro, but I'm concerned that moving up in class would be unnecessarily difficult in open. My eyes are still decent right now, so I'm not forced that way at the moment. I'm also torn between the "shoot like a man with irons" mentality vs the " dots are the future, jump in early" mentality.

I think the answer is “it depends.” On field courses, where you make one draw, one reload, and shoot a lot, the appendix draw and reload doesn’t cost you like on a classifier. On a classifier, where you generally draw and reload, shooting only a few rounds, the concealed appendix draw and reload is going to be a significant penalty.

Both Open and Limited are going to be hard to move up in, shooting minor from concealment, but Open more so than Limited. The Acro is a great defensive sight, but not so great a gaming sight.

For me, Carry Optics is the sweet spot, using an open carry holster and mag pouches, and I can easily practice appendix draws outside of competition.

[Mr_White]

I think the answer is “it depends.” On field courses, where you make one draw, one reload, and shoot a lot, the appendix draw and reload doesn’t cost you like on a classifier. On a classifier, where you generally draw and reload, shooting only a few rounds, the concealed appendix draw and reload is going to be a significant penalty.

Both Open and Limited are going to be hard to move up in, shooting minor from concealment, but Open more so than Limited. The Acro is a great defensive sight, but not so great a gaming sight.

For me, Carry Optics is the sweet spot, using an open carry holster and mag pouches, and I can easily practice appendix draws outside of competition.

I agree. I think both will be hard - Open probably harder than Limited.

[taadski]

Do you think it would be easier to move up in class shooting lim minor with irons, or open minor with an acro?

Yeah, what Gabe and George said.

I was personally going to respond “Neither of the above” when I read your post. 😆

[tyrusasmith]

I think the answer is “it depends.” On field courses, where you make one draw, one reload, and shoot a lot, the appendix draw and reload doesn’t cost you like on a classifier. On a classifier, where you generally draw and reload, shooting only a few rounds, the concealed appendix draw and reload is going to be a significant penalty.

Thanks for the insight and confirming the direction I'm leaning.

[tyrusasmith]

I agree. I think both will be hard - Open probably harder than Limited.

Gabe, do you have any posts detailing your current gear selection and placement? (Most specifically your mag pouches)

I run my normal carry gear with an appendix Keeper holster and single appendix mag pouch, but I carry additional mags in a double owb mag pouch at 9 o'clock. I find that my shirt stays up over the mags about 50% of the time after my draw and that helps on the reloads. Do you setup your gear to try to encourage your shirt to stay up over your mags after the draw?

Do you have any videos out there detailing clearing a shirt to grab the mag? I've stumbled upon this technique where I wave my hand in a circle to sweep the shirt out the way, then grab the mag. It seems to work better than pulling the shirt up and trying to grab it before the shirt falls back down.

[YVK]

You guys might enjoy this

https://youtu.be/SXp0sX24wd4


Stepan is 81% Limited shooter.


Like many Russians, he is on a smarter side so, as GJM has pointed out, he does shoot major pf.

[Mr_White]

Gabe, do you have any posts detailing your current gear selection and placement? (Most specifically your mag pouches)

I run my normal carry gear with an appendix Keeper holster and single appendix mag pouch, but I carry additional mags in a double owb mag pouch at 9 o'clock. I find that my shirt stays up over the mags about 50% of the time after my draw and that helps on the reloads. Do you setup your gear to try to encourage your shirt to stay up over your mags after the draw?

Do you have any videos out there detailing clearing a shirt to grab the mag? I've stumbled upon this technique where I wave my hand in a circle to sweep the shirt out the way, then grab the mag. It seems to work better than pulling the shirt up and trying to grab it before the shirt falls back down.

I'll try to get back to you with a video and more explanation of my hand path sometime soon. I'm currently using two JMCK OWB single pouches at about 9/9:30. Like you, my shirt piles on top of the mag pouches a significant amount of the time, leaving the magazines exposed. However, I can't rely on that happening, so I always have to move my hand to clear the shirt even if the shirt sometimes turns out not to be in the way.

[Alpha Sierra]

Stepan is 81% Limited shooter.


Like many Russians, he is on a smarter side so, as GJM has pointed out, he does shoot major pf.

I just wanna know if the RO wearing jeans and a Safariland cap is single

[YVK]

Not sure. Really nice gal.

[Cory]

Full post about my match:
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?22554-Cory-s-training-log&p=884295&viewfull=1#post884295

Shot "Extreme GM" match. I did absolutely terrible. Hard match for me, with a lot of lessons learned.

Nobody cared about me shooting AIWB. At all. It was a far more experienced group of USPSA shooters though.

My first stage the RO asked me if I was comfortable with shooting. I told him I was comfortable and safe as a shooter, and that after seeing me shoot my first stage everyone tends to realize that. I did tell him "I reholster slow, and I pay attention to that. If that bothers you you'll get over it". He smiled and said something along the lines of "I've got no problem with that at all". While he asked me that stuff, he never really referenced the fact that he might have been worried about AIWB. Not knowing me, I think that's something he would have done with every new face my age at his regular club.

On another stage the acting RO (different guy) threw me for a loop when he said "If you are finished, unload show clear, clear, hammer down... and waistband" I immediately froze and asked him to repeat it. He did "Waistband... holster" I told him I thought he was hunting for a DQ because not everyone likes what I'm doing with AIWB. He laughed and was like "Nah man, just messing with ya"

On another stage while making ready I heard the same guy say "Here goes Gabe White". While walking between two hot stages I called back "I wish I shot like Gabe White!". After shooting the next stage and clearing I talked with him about it. He basically was like I know that became popular when Gabe White started shooting AWIB and became a Master. I told him that Gabe posts here on PF and has offered me a ton of valuable advice. Another guy jumped into the conversation and was talking about Gabe hitting bowling pins and tennis balls one handed at a dead run, and how that's incredible.

I don't think anyone had any problem with AIWB at all (in fact nobody even mentioned it outside of referencing Gabe White) and everyone could have cared less. They talked with me more about how to develop skill than about the fact I'm using AIWB. There was talk about how limited minor was going to really going to be a hindrance when shooting against major power factor. In fact, that was talked about more I think.

Mr_White I couldn't pass on your regards to Mr. Bragg. He wasn't actually present at the match, his counter part Gorka Ibanez ran it.

-Cory

[Mr_White]

Cory,

Thanks for the report. No worries on saying hi to Manny - after I asked, I realized it might not be very practical depending on how it worked out.

I'm not surprised people weren't uppity/bothered by/impressed by AIWB - that's been my experience overall. Shooting and integrating it with all the movement is what USPSA is all about. Major vs minor is a way bigger factor than holster position.

Reloads - I have always benefited in USPSA from rolling heavy as a timmy. I don't have to change my gun around to have something very very capable to shoot with. I add a couple additional spare magazines in a back pocket just in case, but as a rule I don't need more than the two spares on my belt that I'm already carrying anyway. Larger capacity magazines also play into this - I've willingly oriented gear right at the convergence of carry and gaming for me.

Stage planning will partly come with time. Ben Stoeger's class also helped me enormously with stage planning. It's not like I'm great at it, but my score suffers due to idiotic stage planning a LOT less frequently than before.

To offer a super basic method, try this:

1. Read the written stage briefing. Make sure you know how many rounds are required per target (sometimes it's not best 2 on paper...) and how many total rounds the stage is.

2. Walk around the outside of the stage and make sure you have actually located all the targets.

3. Identify the spots you must go to in order to shoot all the targets. This will define a lot of your stage plan because these spots are not optional.

4. Figure out where you are going to shoot the other targets from - ideally from the mandatory positions you're already going to, or while moving between them.

5. Figure out where the reloads have to happen.

6. Walk through as many times as you can during the 5 minute period.

7. Make sure you quit taping and resetting 2-3 shooters before your turn and just think through and visualize your plan over and over as many times as you can. Ideally, you should be able to visualize the entire plan from start to finish with your eyes closed.

8. Remember you can rob stage plans off other shooters. I do this a lot. They see a lot of things I miss in stage planning.

9. The consensus at the upper levels of USPSA is that there is not usually a lot of magic in stage planning. Among decent plans the difference is in quality of execution. Just don't have a bad plan, and it will all boil down to the shooting and movement.

[Yung]

While the Tuesday Night Steel at Rio Salado is my favorite, I haven't been able to attend since the beginning of the year when I changed hours at my side job. Somebody at the monthly IDPA Classifier at the Phoenix Rod & Gun yesterday morning mentioned that the the monthly Intro to Steel should be coming up and that's when I thought about this thread. They go by USPSA rules and while I'd gone enough times to be told to stop registering on Practiscore as Novice and go in D Limited so I didn't have to download my magazines, it had only just clicked that being in Limited meant I should also be able to draw from concealed appendix.

Having made that realization alone wouldn't have been enough for me to leave my ALS in my range bag if it hadn't been for that classifier I shot earlier. It was the first IDPA event I attended as well as my first visit to the PRGC and while I was told it could be shot without concealment, I'd insisted on using an IWB anyway -- might as well stay consistent for the future if I can make it to a regular match. However, the difference combined with wearing my magazines on my offhand side instead of centerline was something I was no longer used to. Likely not enough to make Expert instead of Sharpshooter though, my final time was in the 120s for ESP. There's always next month.

So anyhow I shot the Intro to Steel from AIWB for the first time and I was reminded that the friendly-as-ever reception from the same familiar ROs was one of the big reasons I kept coming back to Rio Salado after taking their practical starter course. On the first stage I was asked "Where's your gun?" and then something along the lines of 'Oh yeah, USPSA allows that' and that was about it. Someone even made a quick trip to the next bay where the other stages were to let them know I was good to go and I really should have come back and thanked him for that after I was done for the day.

My hope is more folks take the plunge and show everyone this can be just another thing so that one day we can be hipsters and unironically say we were doing it in competition before it went mainstream. Just kidding,I wanna be special forever.

[GJM]

For fun, I would like to occasionally shoot from AIWB at USPSA matches, but my CO pistol would put me in Open. Hopefully USPSA changes that, so AIWB is legal for Production and CO, not just Limited and Open.

[Mr_White]

Gabe, do you have any posts detailing your current gear selection and placement? (Most specifically your mag pouches)

I run my normal carry gear with an appendix Keeper holster and single appendix mag pouch, but I carry additional mags in a double owb mag pouch at 9 o'clock. I find that my shirt stays up over the mags about 50% of the time after my draw and that helps on the reloads. Do you setup your gear to try to encourage your shirt to stay up over your mags after the draw?

Do you have any videos out there detailing clearing a shirt to grab the mag? I've stumbled upon this technique where I wave my hand in a circle to sweep the shirt out the way, then grab the mag. It seems to work better than pulling the shirt up and trying to grab it before the shirt falls back down.


I'll try to get back to you with a video and more explanation of my hand path sometime soon. I'm currently using two JMCK OWB single pouches at about 9/9:30. Like you, my shirt piles on top of the mag pouches a significant amount of the time, leaving the magazines exposed. However, I can't rely on that happening, so I always have to move my hand to clear the shirt even if the shirt sometimes turns out not to be in the way.

Ok Tyrus, here you go! This video is set up to show the mag-retrieval side. It has four reps shown at full speed (plus time for each) and then the same four reps shown at quarter speed. Hopefully you can see the detail of the magazine retrieval. The 'trick' for me is a consistent shirt clear, because that supports a consistent grip on the magazine, which is the big key to reloads. For me, the consistent shirt clear is dependent on this: I have to make sure my support hand fingers touch my pant leg. If I don't make sure the fingers touch the pants, then it often results in a short-stroked shirt clearing motion, failure to actually clear the shirt, failure to consistently grasp the magazine, and the reload falls apart. I really only lift the shirt a minimal amount - enough to get the baseplate in my palm. The shirt kind of piles on top of my hand but falls away as I bring out the new magazine.


https://youtu.be/MjOw816hX5k

[OldRunner/CSAT Neighbor]

Clearly not Tyrus nor Cory but thx. for the detailed explanations plus the videos Gabe, they're all very helpful both for stage planning & working reloads.

I'm a mere C class shooter in CO that also shoots AIWB w/ a shirt over but my JMCK single mags. are carried @ 1100.

Going to try your 900-930 position w/ them this Saturday & this > " I have to make sure my support hand fingers touch my pant leg. If I don't make sure the fingers touch the pants, then it often results in a short-stroked shirt clearing motion " stood out to me.

Already signed up for your DFW class but in the mean time tips like your last two posts give me/us additional info. for tweaking/refining our P shooting skills.

[tyrusasmith]

This video is set up to show the mag-retrieval side.

Gabe, thanks so much for taking the time to demonstrate this in detail. Your movement looks more efficient than mine and I'll definitely put in some time to try it myself.

Once again, class act on your part, thanks!

[tyrusasmith]

Did some AIWB USPSA in July. Hooked up on 2 stages, bombed the rest. My lizard brain fought me to focus on the front sight and I ended up target focusing the entire match. I've been focusing my practice lately on making sure I stay front sight focused despite the adrenaline.

Here are the applicable AIWB stages.


https://youtu.be/hCEjj8TJrhs


https://youtu.be/iPYyQ9-nLL0


https://youtu.be/8pnzreA8sJs

[HopetonBrown]

I've been focusing my practice lately on making sure I stay front sight focused despite the adrenaline.



Nobody out there doing good is front sight focused for much of a match. 15 yard partial yes, but for most stuff you can just look through your sights. Would probably make a good thread topic.

[Cory]

Nobody out there doing good is front sight focused for much of a match. 15 yard partial yes, but for most stuff you can just look through your sights. Would probably make a good thread topic.

I'm a total USPSA scrub. but I tend to agree with this. On the stages I see through my sights instead of looking at them I'm far faster. Oddly, the accuracy and As seem about the same either way. If it's equal accuracy but one is faster then there is a clearly better approach.

-Cory

[tyrusasmith]

Nobody out there doing good is front sight focused for much of a match. 15 yard partial yes, but for most stuff you can just look through your sights. Would probably make a good thread topic.


I'm a total USPSA scrub. but I tend to agree with this. On the stages I see through my sights instead of looking at them I'm far faster. Oddly, the accuracy and As seem about the same either way. If it's equal accuracy but one is faster then there is a clearly better approach.

-Cory

I should have clarified. I'm not looking for the serrations on the sights, but I was basically point shooting off of index the entire match. That got me 6 misses and 3 no shoots.

All I saw was a fiber dot and the target, I didn't even see the rear sight at all, nor where the dot was in relation to the notch.

My practice now is making sure I at least see the dot in the notch, and hopefully get it lined up a little better.

[HopetonBrown]

My practice now is making sure I at least see the dot in the notch, and hopefully get it lined up a little better.

Has anyone ever done the sight alignment demo in front of you?

Stand 5-7 yards from an IPSC/IDPA target, and push the front sight all the way to the right so that you have a single light bar on the left, fire a round, push it all the way to the left, press a shot, bury the front post in the notch to where your fiber is at the bottom of the notch, then again at the top of the notch?

If you haven't seen it or tried it yourself it's quite illuminating how much sight alignment error you can have and still get hits.

Edited to add a vid from EL

https://youtu.be/LrdEhBxX3xo

[tyrusasmith]

Has anyone ever done the sight alignment demo in front of you?

Stand 5-7 yards from an IPSC/IDPA target, and push the front sight all the way to the right so that you have a single light bar on the left, fire a round, push it all the way to the left, press a shot, bury the front post in the notch to where your fiber is at the bottom of the notch, then again at the top of the notch?

If you haven't seen it or tried it yourself it's quite illuminating how much sight alignment error you can have and still get hits.

Edited to add a vid from EL

https://youtu.be/LrdEhBxX3xo

Yes, I was introduced to that in Gabe White's class. I was shooting with Trijicon HD XR sights and the front post and rear notch widths were well matched. I was able to get A's as long as the dot was wholly in the u notch (rather than perfectly centered).

In this match I had about 2 hours of dryfire and 250 rounds on a new set of Dawson P320 competition sights mounted on my P229.

The Dawsons have a much smaller dot than the Trijicon sights, the dot is very near the top of the front post, and the notch is much deeper on the rear. Supposedly this is the preferred setup of many competition shooters so they have less obstruction of the targets.

It seems that my engrained " put the dot in the middle of the notch" mindset that I acquired from the Trijicons didn't work for the Dawsons. The Dawsons require the equal height approach which puts the dot much closer to the top of the rear notch.

The change in aiming technique might be part to blame, but I know I didn't recall seeing the rear notch the whole match. I'm going to guess I was centering the fiber in the rear notch by instinct.

[HopetonBrown]

I was shooting with Trijicon HD XR sights and the front post and rear notch widths were well matched. I was able to get A's as long as the dot was wholly in the u notch (rather than perfectly centered).

The Dawsons have a much smaller dot than the Trijicon sights, the dot is very near the top of the front post, and the notch is much deeper on the rear. Supposedly this is the preferred setup of many competition shooters so they have less obstruction of the targets.

It seems that my engrained " put the dot in the middle of the notch" mindset that I acquired from the Trijicons didn't work for the Dawsons.


It's the same technique across all iron sights.

The HD XR are 122/169, the Dawson competition are 100/135, so there's actually more slop in the Trijicons.

Maybe try the demo yourself to see how much sight misalignment you can get away with.

My personal experience (YMMV) is it's not really a lot about sight alignment but how well I can press the trigger without pushing the gun off target.

[tyrusasmith]

It's the same technique across all iron sights.

The HD XR are 122/169, the Dawson competition are 100/135, so there's actually more slop in the Trijicons.

Maybe try the demo yourself to see how much sight misalignment you can get away with.


By introduced, I meant I was shown the concept, we did it, and I do it occasionally in practice, especially with new sights.

While I know the concept is the same across all sights, my experience with these 2 in particular sights has made me change my aiming technique.

With the Trijicons, if the full dot is anywhere in the notch, it seems like it was good to go. Especially on the vertical axis. My goal was to put the dot right in the middle of the notch. Vertical and horizontal

On the Dawsons, if you put the dot in the middle vertically, C zone all day long. I have to now put the dot at the top of the notch.

In the picture below you can see the "goal" I was going for on the Trijicons, that doesn't work on the Dawsons. The asterisks are what I was doing in the last match, although I can't even confirm that I saw the rear sight. In practice, I was able to recreate the low misses/ no shoots and better understand what was going on.41896

[Mr_White]

Nobody out there doing good is front sight focused for much of a match. 15 yard partial yes, but for most stuff you can just look through your sights. Would probably make a good thread topic.


Has anyone ever done the sight alignment demo in front of you?

Stand 5-7 yards from an IPSC/IDPA target, and push the front sight all the way to the right so that you have a single light bar on the left, fire a round, push it all the way to the left, press a shot, bury the front post in the notch to where your fiber is at the bottom of the notch, then again at the top of the notch?

If you haven't seen it or tried it yourself it's quite illuminating how much sight alignment error you can have and still get hits.

Edited to add a vid from EL

https://youtu.be/LrdEhBxX3xo


I quoted a couple of posts but there was a lot more worth discussing.

First, although I absolutely agree that target focused shooting is extremely prevalent in USPSA and can be done extremely effectively, it is not accurate that no one doing well shoots much of a match front sight focused. I guess that depends on what you mean by doing well. ;) I am certainly in the minority, but I shoot ALL shots that are not from a retention or compressed position, front sight focused. I have won numerous local Limited matches that way, one Major (just a Section match, but still a Major), as well as various other good finishes. If you meant national champions and contenders, that's definitely not me and I haven't been doing much with USPSA the last couple years. I'm not deep in right now. It's also been a big part of every non-USPSA shooting accomplishment I've been fortunate enough to succeed in.

Second, I completely agree with the importance of understanding acceptable sight alignment, and the relative effects of sight errors vs. trigger errors. That is critical. However, it is a long recognized error to shoot a fiber optic like it's a red dot sight (that is, put the dot on the target and press, never mind the rear sight.) While there are plenty of close shots where that may work, it's not even close to sufficient for the totality of shots one will face in a match. When a person has a hard time finding the discipline to shoot the top edges and light bars and instead gets sucked into shooting the FO like red dot, it is often recommended that they spend some time with all black sights. With all black sights, there's not much to use but the top edges and light bars.

ETA: I believe that is the root problem Steve Anderson attempts to address with his prescription to "throw your fiber in the river."

[HopetonBrown]

First, although I absolutely agree that target focused shooting is extremely prevalent in USPSA and can be done extremely effectively, it is not accurate that no one doing well shoots much of a match front sight focused. I guess that depends on what you mean by doing well. ;) I am certainly in the minority, but I shoot ALL shots that are not from a retention or compressed position, front sight focused.

Just so we are clear with definitions, when OP said front sight focus, I am assuming he means technique no. 3, and when I say look through sights, I'm referring to technique no. 2.

Edited to add: I originally typed 1 when I meant 3.



https://youtu.be/mDf_aOHXFrw

[Mr_White]

Just so we are clear with definitions, when OP said front sight focus, I am assuming he means technique no. 1, and when I say look through sights, I'm referring to technique no. 2.



https://youtu.be/mDf_aOHXFrw

Hmmmmmm - using the methods presented in the video as references, technique 1 is target focused shooting, technique 2 is neither target nor front sight focused, and technique 3 is front sight focused shooting.

All three are highly viable and are used by shooters far better and worse than myself. Ignoring compressed and retention positions where I'm not getting the gun to full extension, I use technique 3 exclusively.

I don't know whether Matt was using targets at different distances, but if they were at the same distance, I think there is a confounding element of the demonstration in the video. The radically different amounts of time spent firing each shot appears to me to include a lot of difference in trigger manipulation. There may be something I am missing, and I really like Matt a lot and think he's a great shooter. This is all for the purpose of discussion and I mean no criticism of him.

To say that front sight focused shooting is necessarily slower seems to me as untrue as if one were to say that target focused shooting can't produce A-zone hits at 25 yards. Both are examples of things that are conventionally true as generalities, but the capabilities of individual practitioners may not shake out the same way, especially if they put in a lot of work developing skill using an aiming method that suits them.

[AKDoug]

Hmmmmmm - using the methods presented in the video as references, technique 1 is target focused shooting, technique 2 is neither target nor front sight focused, and technique 3 is front sight focused shooting.

All three are highly viable and are used by shooters far better and worse than myself. Ignoring compressed and retention positions where I'm not getting the gun to full extension, I use technique 3 exclusively.

I don't know whether Matt was using targets at different distances, but if they were at the same distance, I think there is a confounding element of the demonstration in the video. The radically different amounts of time spent firing each shot appears to me to include a lot of difference in trigger manipulation. There may be something I am missing, and I really like Matt a lot and think he's a great shooter. This is all for the purpose of discussion and I mean no criticism of him.

To say that front sight focused shooting is necessarily slower seems to me as untrue as if one were to say that target focused shooting can't produce A-zone hits at 25 yards. Both are examples of things that are conventionally true as generalities, but the capabilities of individual practitioners may not shake out the same way, especially if they put in a lot of work developing skill using an aiming method that suits them.

Methods of aiming constantly come up in all types of firearms and archery target disciplines. I was a fairly high level archer (state champion, but never did well on the national level) in a division that used sights. Most sighted bows use a peep sight on the string, a pin or other aiming device on the actual bow, that you aligned just like a peep sighted rifle. Just like a pistol sight, some people aimed focusing on the pin and had a fuzzy target, some aimed by staring at the bullseye and didn't focus on the sight at all, some spent their time with a fuzzy target and made sure their front sight was perfectly centered in their rear peep circle. Like you mention, people won major competitions using all three methods. When people stared at the bullseye and allowed the rest of the shot just happen, we called them sub-conscious aimers. In archery I was a sub-conscious aimer. Accuracy levels required at 20m to be in the running in most competitions required putting all 60 of your arrows in about a 2" circle over the course of fire. You simply couldn't miss that to be competitive. People asked me all the time how I aimed, and when I said I focused on the X and just let the rest happen they wouldn't believe me.

I am well aware that action pistol shooting isn't the same as bullseye pistol or target archery, but I do believe that the human brain has the capability to aim subconsciously and quickly if we don't mess with it. For my personal pistol shooting on action pistol type events, I am target focused and allow my subconscious do the aiming and pressing of the trigger. I suck, though, so I am well aware that I don't know anything and would be open to trying a different method. A decade of archery competition makes it difficult to change, though.

[GJM]

I think your shooting looks great — you move well and have great recoil control.

I would experiment with a bit more patience, not sure whether it is sights, trigger or both, to get your hits where you want them to be. Bet that patience costs you little in time.

[tyrusasmith]

I think your shooting looks great — you move well and have great recoil control.

I would experiment with a bit more patience, not sure whether it is sights, trigger or both, to get your hits where you want them to be. Bet that patience costs you little in time.

Patience is the term I was looking for. I think I touch one off as soon as the fiber was on the A rather than holding for a few hundreds to confirm that I can see the front in the rear notch. I think that is the approach I've been taking in my recent practice without being able to describe it well.

[Yung]

In keeping with the theme of this thread, over this weekend I attended my second and third ever official USPSA club matches, drawing from appendix concealment. My first match last week was with an outside-the-waistband strong side open. There was some good-natured commentary yesterday (in reference to something a high-level shooter did at a major match, named Travis McCamish I think), and no issues raised or confusion during stage procedure yesterday or today at all, despite everyone else wearing an open belt.

Venue for all three matches was Rio Salado Sportsman's Club/Usery Pass Gun Range, in Mesa, Arizona. Here the results on Practiscore.

https://practiscore.com/results/cards/109554
https://practiscore.com/results/cards/109993
https://practiscore.com/results/cards/110065

Thanks to cor_man257 and tyrusasmith for taking the initiative.

[Cory]

In keeping with the theme of this thread, over this weekend I attended my second and third ever official USPSA club matches, drawing from appendix concealment. My first match last week was with an outside-the-waistband strong side open. There was some good-natured commentary yesterday (in reference to something a high-level shooter did at a major match, named Travis McCamish I think), and no issues raised or confusion during stage procedure yesterday or today at all, despite everyone else wearing an open belt.

Venue for all three matches was Rio Salado Sportsman's Club/Usery Pass Gun Range, in Mesa, Arizona. Here the results on Practiscore.

https://practiscore.com/results/cards/109554
https://practiscore.com/results/cards/109993
https://practiscore.com/results/cards/110065

Thanks to cor_man257 and tyrusasmith for taking the initiative.

The initiative does not belong to me, but rather Gabe White.

Glad you had a good time. My local club seems to be on hiatus for USPSA.

-Cory

[Yung]

Gabe is great and is why I found out AIWB in competition is a thing, don't get me wrong. But he alone wouldn't have been enough for me to feel comfortable trying it myself.