SS 9mm replacement cylinders for K frame

[Wyoming Shooter]

Gentlemen - I have a S&W 65 and 66. I'm wondering about the feasibility of procuring stainless 9mm replacement cylinders cut for moonclips. The idea is to save some money on training ammo and speed up my reloads. Thoughts? Thanks. ELN

35930

35931

[Lon]

2 things - what grips are on that 66?

And you can find stainless cylinders on eBay, gunbroker and other online sources. Just need to give them to a gunsmith to get squared away with your revolver. Thought about doing the same on a couple of occasions. TK Custom can do the 9mm conversion. So can Pinnacle.

[OlongJohnson]

I have zero experience with this so I'm just thinking it through.

Wouldn't it be ideal-er to start with a .32 cal (or anything smaller than .38/.357) cylinder and have it rebored for the shorter 9mm case and to have the throats correctly fit the smaller bullet diameter? You could then set it up to headspace properly on the case mouth so the clips were floating in the grooves; a slightly bent clip wouldn't act as a suspension spring that absorbed the energy of a firing pin strike.

If the gunsmith was really switched on, he could adjust the positions of the holes to get each one more perfectly aligned with the barrel with the gun as it locks up on each hole. That would provide best accuracy and minimize force and wear on the timing/lockup components. Probably not easy or cheap to do... Would take a lot of 9mm rounds to make it about the saving of money. But awesome can be worth it.

Also, if one was going to go over the top on that, starting with a M64 or M67 and its shorter cylinder might be of benefit.

[Jim Watson]

9mm conversion is $250 at Pinnacle, $300 at TK; TK clips are $8 each, plus the price to buy and fit a spare cylinder.
It is going to take a while to recoup the cost with econoball 9mm.

Do you plan to return the .38 cylinder for carry? If so, why does speed of loading 9mm matter?

Me? I just load up a batch of .38s, the Dillon is set up for that now while I have a good supply of 9mm on the shelf.

Gee, Olong, a K .32 cylinder to do a precision conversion to is vanishingly scarce. Could you use a K22 cylinder? Is it going to be as strong as a centerfire cylinder.

[Wyoming Shooter]

2 things - what grips are on that 66?...

VZ 320 with the finger grooves ground away. I like 'em.

[1986s4]

I'm not to sure how practical a 9mm revolver really is in practice. Moon clips are notorious for bending and thus rendering them unusable until bent back. There are ejection systems for rimless cases but are there practical speedloaders for them? I reload so maybe I'm biased but .38spl/.357mag work really well with speedloaders and ejection is simple and positive.

[Poconnor]

I had a blued 4” Ruger security six that had a lot of finish wear. I should have converted it to 9mm instead of selling it

[jtcarm]

I'm not to sure how practical a 9mm revolver really is in practice. Moon clips are notorious for bending and thus rendering them unusable until bent back. There are ejection systems for rimless cases but are there practical speedloaders for them? I reload so maybe I'm biased but .38spl/.357mag work really well with speedloaders and ejection is simple and positive.

I have some TKs in .40. Anybody who could bend one unintentionally could screw up a crow bar.

9mm revolvers are actually the way to go for USPSA. Moon clips are the fastest reload and rimless rounds work much better.

Korth sells a 9mm conversion cylinder for L-frames that function without moons, but with cost + gunsmith fitting, you’d have to do some serious 9mm shooting to make it pay for itself.

But why not pay those conversion costs for a reloading outfit, for even cheaper ammo?

[1986s4]

I have some TKs in .40. Anybody who could bend one unintentionally could screw up a crow bar.

9mm revolvers are actually the way to go for USPSA. Moon clips are the fastest reload and rimless rounds work much better.

Korth sells a 9mm conversion cylinder for L-frames that function without moons, but with cost + gunsmith fitting, you’d have to do some serious 9mm shooting to make it pay for itself.

But why not pay those conversion costs for a reloading outfit, for even cheaper ammo?

I've bent/broke things that should never be broken. Reminds me of the '57 Willy's Jeep I was restoring, broke a bunch of sh!t on that puppy.. I don't shoot USPSA often and I shoot IDPA once a month... In revolver division. A moon clip 9mm doesn't make sense in that game. I'd love a Korth but $$$.

[jtcarm]

I've bent/broke things that should never be broken. Reminds me of the '57 Willy's Jeep I was restoring, broke a bunch of sh!t on that puppy.. I don't shoot USPSA often and I shoot IDPA once a month... In revolver division. A moon clip 9mm doesn't make sense in that game. I'd love a Korth but $$$.

9mm revolvers aren’t even legal in IDPA. One of their many bass-ackwards revolver rules.

[OlongJohnson]

[QUOTE=1986s4;855853]I've bent/broke things that should never be broken. QUOTE]

Marine, right?

My problem is I find things wrong that nobody's ever seen before, and then I have to figure out how to fix them.

[Spartan1980]

I'm not to sure how practical a 9mm revolver really is in practice. Moon clips are notorious for bending and thus rendering them unusable until bent back. There are ejection systems for rimless cases but are there practical speedloaders for them? I reload so maybe I'm biased but .38spl/.357mag work really well with speedloaders and ejection is simple and positive.

I'm in this camp. I also reload and have a bunch of Starline .38 Short Colt brass which is just a standard .38 Special case trimmed to 9mm length, so it's a 9mm with a rim. Also 9mm loses a nice amount of velocity due to the barrel/cylinder gap, so they are never as fast as their auto brethren. I have 50 Hearthco clips that work perfectly and you pretty much have to step on them after dropping to bend them. I just can't figure out what 9mm does that this setup doesn't. For those that don't reload I still can't see what you get over .38 +P in a quality moonclip except for cheaper practice ammo. That's definitely a legit issue, but quite a long payback.

[Joe in PNG]

From reading other threads, a 9mm in a revolver supposedly offers better expansion & penetration than most .38 Specials when fired from a short 2" barrel.
But, I'm oft wrong.

[1986s4]

9mm revolvers aren’t even legal in IDPA. One of their many bass-ackwards revolver rules.

Not that IDPA has everything right but it's really more of a level playing field and power factor thing. IDPA recognizes that a moon clip revo is faster than a speedloader so in an effort to not obsolete every .38 spl revolver out there they put a power factor requirement on moon clip loading revolvers. Something that a 9mm is probably not going to meet [also 6 round]. That said I do think that 7 & 8 round revolvers are common enough to be allowed in their own division or maybe with the moon clippers? But the revolver division is not highly entered so probably not worth the effort.
My most recent IDPA match saw 30 shooters with 3 of us being revolver guys.

[HeavyDuty]

If someone recreates the 547 ejection system in a conversion, I’ll be there so fast...

[1986s4]

[QUOTE=1986s4;855853]I've bent/broke things that should never be broken. QUOTE]

Marine, right?

My problem is I find things wrong that nobody's ever seen before, and then I have to figure out how to fix them.

Ha, Marines do have a reputation don't they? But no, Texas Guard, maybe I missed my calling. When I'm focused I often end up damaging myself, like hey, I'm bleeding and what's with that flap of skin, how did that happen and when?

[OlongJohnson]

Not that IDPA has everything right but it's really more of a level playing field and power factor thing. IDPA recognizes that a moon clip revo is faster than a speedloader so in an effort to not obsolete every .38 spl revolver out there they put a power factor requirement on moon clip loading revolvers. Something that a 9mm is probably not going to meet [also 6 round]. That said I do think that 7 & 8 round revolvers are common enough to be allowed in their own division or maybe with the moon clippers? But the revolver division is not highly entered so probably not worth the effort.
My most recent IDPA match saw 30 shooters with 3 of us being revolver guys.

Both S&W and Ruger make guns that are not just designed for, but named for the IDPA requirements. And if you were really serious, you'd at least test with a Model 67.

The first rule of competition is to read the rulebook, and then figure out what will work best for you within those rules. There's always ChumpCar and LeMons if you can't be happy in SCCA or NASA.

[1986s4]

Both S&W and Ruger make guns that are not just designed for, but named for the IDPA requirements. And if you were really serious, you'd at least test with a Model 67.

The first rule of competition is to read the rulebook, and then figure out what will work best for you within those rules. There's always ChumpCar and LeMons if you can't be happy in SCCA or NASA.

Not quite sure what you're saying here. I am aware of the S&W and Ruger IDPA revos. They're nice but I'm happy with my M13. I have read the IDPA rule book and moonclip revos have a higher power factor @ 155. I know that IPSC allows 9mm major in open so maybe it's possible but I'm not going there.

[Jim Watson]

Note also that IDPA says that cliploaders must be .357 Magnum or larger.
A 9mm overloaded to f-155 is not legit.
Makes me glad I could not find a Speed Six 4" 9mm and that I did not splurge on the short lived .38 Super revolver.

[RevolverRob]

9mm revolvers are actually the way to go for USPSA. Moon clips are the fastest reload and rimless rounds work much better.

Actually, everyone competing seriously with revolvers in USPSA and ICORE run .38 Short Colts.

They do so, because they are the length of 9mm with a rim, so faster to reload. But they also do so, because .355" bullets give sub-par accuracy performance in .357" barreled revolvers. The 986 and 929 are quasi-popular, but typically group in the 4" range at 25 yards. Good enough to play the game at an okay level, but when you add in Minor scoring and the need to score more A hits, you eventually outrun the gun.

Guys have found solutions of course, loading up specifically tuned 986/929 loads to get them accurate enough. But at that point...you might as well load .38 Short Colts. Unless you're specifically setup to load 9mm (which some are, I am not).


From reading other threads, a 9mm in a revolver supposedly offers better expansion & penetration than most .38 Specials when fired from a short 2" barrel.
But, I'm oft wrong.

True in 2" guns for sure. The gain there is significant over a .38 special. We recognize that the 9mm guns aren't quite as good as a .357 magnum, but few are willing to load a 340PD with maggies and shoot them. Meanwhile, an LCR loaded with 9mm +P can approximate the performance of 125-grain magnum from a short barrel, while giving less recoil and cheaper ammo.

In this sense the best place for a 9mm revolver is in the snub (<3" barrel range). Above 3" the distance between 9mm, .38 Special +P, and .357 Magnum is so small, it's not generally worth the effort to get a 9mm gun what with the moonclips, etc.


Not that IDPA has everything right but it's really more of a level playing field and power factor thing. IDPA recognizes that a moon clip revo is faster than a speedloader so in an effort to not obsolete every .38 spl revolver out there they put a power factor requirement on moon clip loading revolvers. Something that a 9mm is probably not going to meet [also 6 round]. That said I do think that 7 & 8 round revolvers are common enough to be allowed in their own division or maybe with the moon clippers? But the revolver division is not highly entered so probably not worth the effort.
My most recent IDPA match saw 30 shooters with 3 of us being revolver guys.

The 8-shot guns run with 5, 6, and 7s in USPSA. Admittedly, if you want to be highly competitive, you need to go 8 or bust, but that's playing the game. Moonclips speed up reloads, but the guys carrying 8-shot guns for defensive work use speedloaders on the streetz, because the Moonclips are too easy to muck up. Even the good ones can get bent rather easily. Drop one, step on it, leave it unprotected in your skinny jeans pocket when you sit down, or get it half-inserted into the gun and go to shut the revolver and wrench it between the frame and cylinder. The clip WILL get bent.

Do the same to a speed loader, worst case scenario, it becomes a bunch of loose rounds to single load in the gun. Do it to a moon clip, you're going to be playing a fancy new game called, "moon clip-speed strip", how fast can I get rounds out of a metal clip that doesn't want to give them up easily? :eek:

I guess my point is - I think if IDPA is still focusing on being a "street oriented" competition then leaving the moonies out is probably a wise idea.

[jtcarm]

Actually, everyone competing seriously with revolvers in USPSA and ICORE run .38 Short Colts.



I beg to differ. 9mm outnumbered the .38 SC/LC almost 2-1 at the 2017 Nationals.

https://uspsa.org/magazine/view//2018-00#page=40

I regard IDPA rules as idiotic because they further handicap revolvers vs autos, when the revolver division is tiny. You’ve got to be die-hard revolver to shoot the division. If it could be more competitive, more people would shoot it. Plus I’d invest in an 8-shot revolver if I could run it in USPSA and IDPA. I’m not going to buy a 627 to shoot USPSA once a month.

IDPA already bears little semblance to real world. Not 10% of shooters run what they carry, or how they carry.

Who EDCs a Glock 34 under a shoot-me-first vest?

[RevolverRob]

I beg to differ. 9mm outnumbered the .38 SC/LC almost 2-1 at the 2017 Nationals.

https://uspsa.org/magazine/view//2018-00#page=40

Interesting.

It would be nice to know how many were surveyed. Any ideas? Percentiles mean more in the context of the sample size they represent.

Also to note: 99% of shooters are running handloaded ammo - the majority of them 160-grain Bayou Bullets. Whether they are running the 9mm 160 (.356" diameter) or the .38/.357 160 (.358" diameter) - the point remains that they aren't using factory .355" bullets. The reason why is because of sub-par accuracy from the 9mm guns using factory ammo.

Which returns us back to the OP - and my answer to the OP's question:

Don't spend your time converting a .357" barrel gun into a 9mm. .38 LRNs are currently about $230/1000 from various sources. The 9mm you're planning to shoot is probably cheaper, like $200/1000 but will likely give you sub-par accuracy.

Instead, take the cash spent on a conversion and buy a case or two of .38 and a stack of Safariland Comp III speed loaders or a stack of Speedbeez Dade-Type Loaders (https://www.speedbeez.com/product-category/speed-loaders/6-shot-38357-speedloaders/sw-k-frame-6-shot-38357/). Since you can't run 9mm moonclips in IDPA and you can't compete at a high level running a 6-shot gun in USPSA, speed reloading with a 9mm moonclip gun is cart before the horse in that realm.

[RevolverRob]

Who EDCs a Glock 34 under a shoot-me-first vest?

Not me. It's a 1911 under a shoot-me-first vest (https://www.concealedcarry.com/product/tropic-concealment-vest/).

[OlongJohnson]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dyYoJlINTHo

[willie]

The expense involved would allow purchase of a Ruger 9mm LCR. Then if you are not pleased, you can sell the Ruger.

[Norville]

Interesting.

It would be nice to know how many were surveyed. Any ideas? Percentiles mean more in the context of the sample size they represent.

.

There were 26 shooters at 2018 Revo Nationals. Probably all were surveyed, but such a small group represents a dead division.

[Spartan1980]

Also to note: 99% of shooters are running handloaded ammo - the majority of them 160-grain Bayou Bullets. Whether they are running the 9mm 160 (.356" diameter) or the .38/.357 160 (.358" diameter) - the point remains that they aren't using factory .355" bullets. The reason why is because of sub-par accuracy from the 9mm guns using factory ammo.

Correct. 3" to 5" groups at 25 from a rest out of 929s (with their long barrel and sight radius) is pretty much the norm. Put in a .358" hi-tek coated bullet and it shrinks to 1". You'll never get good accuracy out of a .3575" +/- .0005" barrel with .355 bullets. Remember the old Ruger SA .357 gun that came with a 9mm cylinder? Those extra cylinders didn't get used much.

Also with a .38 you can run moons, speedloaders or loose rounds if your gun is cut for moons. With 9mm you can't. Well I guess you could run loose rounds if the cylinder is reamed to headspace properly. My 625 will. But it's definitely a NY reload proposition.

[jtcarm]

Better still, spend that conversion cost on a Lee Classic Turret press kit ($219 on Amazon)

By purchasing components in bulk and loading cast bullets (that includes Hi Tek coated), you can produce .38 ammo for under 15-cents per round.

Let’s say you buy brass-cased .38 ammo for 25-cents apiece (about as cheap as you’ll get brass). Then the equipment will have paid for itself in 2500 rounds, or 6 months if you shoot 100 rounds per week.

I guess you can buy 9mm ammo for about the same price as the .38 handloads, but I would not be optimistic about the accuracy of a .355 factory bullet out of a .357 bore.

[03RN]

7cpr for rimrock 158 grain bullets.
3cpr for primers
$23/lbs of unique 5.2grains per round

Brass from 20cpr perfecta .38. Wish I bought more than 2 cases.