Trouble brewing [Archive] - pistol-forum.com

RevolverRob

03-04-2019, 06:06 PM

Some folks really just shouldn't own dogs.

This.

In my experience bad dogs are a reflection of bad owners.

That said some dogs have tons of red flags all over the place. Being abandoned at a shelter/kennel is a good first flag. In my experience the breeds most likely to cause problems are pits and huskies with lazy/over-tolerant owners. I've seen this most in socializing situations with other dogs (i.e., dog parks).

And the owners are pretty much all the same. They are unable to control their dog with commands or physically. The other day, I had to jump into a dog fight at the park. It was started by this exceptionally verbal and aggressive Pit that had no business being in a dog park. The Pit was agitating one dog in particular and kept fixating and nipping at this other dog. Four times the Pit had to be separated, but the owner wouldn't take the Pit from the park. Finally, the dog that was being picked on had enough and attacked the Pit. I watched as the Pit's owner rushed in, she grabbed her dog, but was not strong enough to control it and the Pit bodily yanked her into the brawl. The owner of the other dog picked their dog up bodily and was trying to extract when the Pit turned and stayed on the other dog and its owner. I got there just quick enough to snatch the (rather small, 45-pound pitbull) by it's harness and yank it bodily off of its feet, away from the human and dog it was trying to attack. Then holding a snarling, snappy, squirming, pitbull, I carried the dog at arm's length about 30 feet to the gate of the park and told the owner to come leash her damn dog and take it home.

Frankly, if this had occurred in Texas, I might well have shot the damn thing. It was clearly an animal that does not need to be.

Darth_Uno

03-04-2019, 06:08 PM

Every time someone says pit bulls are violent, someone is guaranteed to post a pic of their toddler riding one like He-Man and Battlecat.

I've got friends that have them and I didn't let my kid over there when he was little. I could just see him belly-bombing them for snuggles, as kids will do, and them not being overly keen on the situation. Especially because he'd do it to my Lab and she'd just wag her tail and give him kisses.

Although these specific dogs seem pretty chill tbh, and the only dog that ever bit me was a Chihuahua.

SiriusBlunder

03-04-2019, 06:10 PM

The title and subject made me think of one of my favorite Far Side cartoons:

35793

Alpha Sierra

03-04-2019, 07:07 PM

Not aimed at the OP, but to me this is kind of like being told (by the owner) the gun just went off.

Unlike guns, animals can go off without apparent or real provocation.

That's a fact

Duelist

03-04-2019, 07:16 PM

Unlike guns, animals can go off without apparent or real provocation.

That's a fact

True, because they have their own brain with unseeable triggers.

But they do usually give signals. Maybe even obvious ones, like nipping a child or tearing at an adult male’s arm. Things like that.

OlongJohnson

03-04-2019, 08:18 PM

A friend of mine told of a family member's pit that seemed the sweetest pet, until they came home from church one Sunday to find the cat spread around the kitchen.

The only dog that ever bit me was a neighbor's cocker spaniel. I had known it its entire life since they brought it home, a couple years. Was petting it and hit the button on the back of its spine above its shoulders, and it instantly turned. Same thing happened to another friend's mom, except that cocker was their family dog. She was holding it in her arms and when it turned, it bit her across the face and inflicted a disfiguring injury. If that happened in my house, the dog would be dead before we left for the hospital.

Casual Friday

03-04-2019, 08:27 PM

LittleLebowski

03-04-2019, 10:05 PM

Forgot to mention that these two incidents are one week apart.

BehindBlueI's

03-04-2019, 10:12 PM

We had pit bulls when I was a kid. The most dangerous thing any of them did was take a kid's shoe off playing. We did, however, have one we didn't keep. She showed signs of being too difficult to train for us to handle, and she went to a breeder.

I've been bitten by three dogs. A Doberman, an Akita, and a Pitbull. The Akita was, by far, the worst. The Pit didn't get much of a chance for round 2, though, since I shot it in the chest.

EMC

03-04-2019, 10:33 PM

You guys might be interested in this event that happened yesterday in my area.

https://kutv.com/news/local/dog-rips-off-childs-arm-in-attack-in-layton-arm-is-missing

Husky bit the 4 year old boy's hand off above the wrist and ate it when the boy put his sock covered hand under the fence.

Stephanie B

03-04-2019, 10:41 PM

RevolverRob

03-04-2019, 11:06 PM

I've never seen a dog go off without warning signs. Even the one I shot had aggressive body language, I just didn't react fast enough to kill it before it killed my sister's (very peaceful) cat.

Too often, people think of dogs and cats as some kind of toy, something for the kids to play with. Dogs may have been domesticated for a few thousand years, but remember that our 'domesticated' pet friends are just at the end of millions of years long evolutionary chains. In that time, they evolved dominant, predatory instincts. If an owner does not demonstrate dominant behavior, the pet will take charge fast, it will fill the hole where dominance is missing.

As for breeds, in my experience working dogs by they hunting, livestock herding, or livestock guarding breeds are the best. As long as you know, you exercise the damn things. Otherwise, just buy a stupid little Bichon or Shih Tzu* to keep you company.

The least reliable breeds are those which seem to belong on the mastiff side of things. I've found plenty of lovely boxers and English mastiffs over the years, but it still seems wise to be careful when selecting a dog from that side of the tree. Or any dog whose primary breeding purpose was protection (including the livestock guard breeds).

RevolverRob

03-04-2019, 11:11 PM

Husky bit the 4 year old boy's hand off above the wrist and ate it when the boy put his sock covered hand under the fence.

Fuckin' Huskies. Those are dogs that are two-and-a-half handfuls of work for any owner. Not a breed I'd ever recommend as a pet for most folks, even experienced dog owners.

I'm not sure what has prompted the explosion of huskies lately, but I've been seeing lots of them around, they are starting to number up like Doodles. At least the Doodles (especially Golden Doodles) just want you to throw the ball and play. The Huskies just want to nip and bite at you or pick fights with other dogs in the park.

Joe in PNG

03-04-2019, 11:14 PM

Fuckin' Huskies. Those are dogs that are two-and-a-half handfuls of work for any owner. Not a breed I'd ever recommend as a pet for most folks, even experienced dog owners.

I'm not sure what has prompted the explosion of huskies lately, but I've been seeing lots of them around, they are starting to number up like Doodles. At least the Doodles (especially Golden Doodles) just want you to throw the ball and play. The Huskies just want to nip and bite at you or pick fights with other dogs in the park.

One would think the film "The Thing" would have been warning enough...

HCM

03-05-2019, 12:13 AM

This entire thread is stupid.

The OPs assertion that all pit bulls are monsters is just as stupid as the people who say all pit bulls are angels.

Dogs are dogs. Some of them are aggressive, some passive, some social, some anti social etc, etc etc.

Most credible shelters and rescue organizations test dogs behavior and either put down or flag the ones with issues as needing homes without children, other pets etc.

However, it does not appear the OP’s wife’s coworker adopted from a credible organization. Instead she adopted a random dog of unknown back ground which someone appears to have “dumped” for cause and unsurprisingly got an ill tempered and ill socialized dog that bit nipped at her child and bit her husband. I’m confident she ignored warning signs in the dogs behavior because in her own way she is just biased as the OP.

The dog needs to be put down, or at a minimum, removed from a home with small children. But all of that is due to the dogs behavior and has fuck all to do with the breed.

pcanzac

03-05-2019, 01:06 AM

The title and subject made me think of one of my favorite Far Side cartoons:

35793https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/jan/20/fraser-island-dingo-attack-boy-in-hospital-after-running-into-pack-of-wild-dogs

Dingos still at it I see, still a nice place to visit if you're not on menu.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

0ddl0t

03-05-2019, 01:10 AM

But all of that is due to the dogs behavior and has fuck all to do with the breed.

But it does have to do with the breed. Pit bulls are:

1) more prone to violence than the average breed
2) capable of doing more damage than the average breed

That doesn't mean you can't have a good pitbull (or rottweiler or doberman etc), but pitbulls, as a breed, are clearly more dangerous than golden retrievers or beagles. Nature AND nurture are at play here...

Totem Polar

03-05-2019, 02:07 AM

I’m with the case-by-case people here. The last two dogs we owned were a boxer/amstaff mix and a rottie, respectively. Both were delightful and loving dogs to the end. But breeds like that are indeed like a G19: mine have always been fine and safe, but I’m not trusting some other asshole’s until I know the owner.

The dog in LL’s post is clearly in need of remediation.

rob_s

03-05-2019, 05:52 AM

Pit bulls are:
1) more prone to violence than the average breed
2) capable of doing more damage than the average breed

What is the basis for this opinion, and what are your qualifications?

Alpha Sierra

03-05-2019, 06:47 AM

fixer

03-05-2019, 06:53 AM

Thought these recent stories were pertinent:

pack of 6 german shepherds attack and kill TN woman. I wonder if these were truly all pure bred GSDs. I suppose if you had 6 GSDs locked up and never socialized them or "trained" them as some type of attack dog, this could happen.

I've got personal experience with an unsocialized GSD and it was a damn head-case and a true public menace.

https://www.macon.com/news/nation-world/national/article226987909.html

This video is a mail carrier getting attacked by a large dog resembling a pit. Shows how these dogs get in a zone and nothing short of death stops them. Note towards the end the dog goes after the owner.

http://www.fox2detroit.com/news/local-news/owner-of-dog-who-attacked-detroit-mail-carrier-ticketed-animal-taken

fixer

03-05-2019, 07:04 AM

Here are some statistics with sources. Some of these sites have an axe to grind with BSL but nevertheless there is a clear trend.

https://www.dogsbite.org/dog-bite-statistics-quick-statistics.php#death-statistics

https://www.askadamskutner.com/dog-bites/bite-statistics-according-to-dog-breed/

Duke

03-05-2019, 07:19 AM

This entire thread is stupid.

.

I agree.

People are going to do dumb things that you don’t like. That’s called freedom.

Dog is biting people who possess it. Why do we feel a need to care about that ?

“Oh but it could get loose and bite someone else”

Congrats. You’re walking the same line as anti gunners, preaching to the what if’s of life.

Moving on to things that actually effect me now....

Hambo

03-05-2019, 07:32 AM

This entire thread is stupid.

It's just another version of the annual dog shooting thread.

BehindBlueI's

03-05-2019, 07:32 AM

People are going to do dumb things that you don’t like. That’s called freedom.

Dog is biting people who possess it. Why do we feel a need to care about that ?

Well, personally I draw a line between biting adults that own it and biting children. Children don't have a choice in the matter of ownership.

Duke

03-05-2019, 07:45 AM

Well, personally I draw a line between biting adults that own it and biting children. Children don't have a choice in the matter of ownership.

Agree

Still the same mindset as anti gunner wanting to ban your gun for your kids safety

LittleLebowski

03-05-2019, 07:55 AM

LittleLebowski

03-05-2019, 07:56 AM

I agree.

People are going to do dumb things that you don’t like. That’s called freedom.

Dog is biting people who possess it. Why do we feel a need to care about that ?

“Oh but it could get loose and bite someone else”

Congrats. You’re walking the same line as anti gunners, preaching to the what if’s of life.

Moving on to things that actually effect me now....

Horseshit. I'd say the same fucking thing about a German Shepherd if it behaved this way. Furthermore, you take the bullshit line of insinuating I'm against freedom. Stop making up shit. Stop putting words in my mouth to further your argument. Be honest.

Duke

03-05-2019, 08:02 AM

Horseshit. I'd say the same fucking thing about a German Shepherd if it behaved this way. Furthermore, you take the bullshit line of insinuating I'm against freedom. Stop making up shit. Stop putting words in my mouth to further your argument. Be honest.

This persons dog biting folks who aren’t you or your’s doesn’t effect you....

There’s no bullshit there.

BehindBlueI's

03-05-2019, 08:28 AM

Agree

Still the same mindset as anti gunner wanting to ban your gun for your kids safety

Not even close. I don't recall suggesting we ban dogs. Did someone call for such a thing and I missed it?

Or are you just arguing against your own statement that literally nobody else brought up so you have something to argue about?

“Oh but it could get loose and bite someone else”

Congrats. You’re walking the same line as anti gunners, preaching to the what if’s of life.

This persons dog biting folks who aren’t you or your’s doesn’t effect you....

There’s no bullshit there.

This is starting to remind me of the thread where a member said he could do anything he wanted to his child because it's his child and nobody else's business.

Duke

03-05-2019, 08:39 AM

Not even close. I don't recall suggesting we ban dogs. Did someone call for such a thing and I missed it?

Or are you just arguing against your own statement that literally nobody else brought up so you have something to argue about?

This is starting to remind me of the thread where a member said he could do anything he wanted to his child because it's his child and nobody else's business.

If the dog is that dangerous - get off the internet and go call child protective services.

If the situation isn’t that dire then this is all just noise.

CCT125US

03-05-2019, 08:49 AM

BehindBlueI's

03-05-2019, 08:54 AM

If the situation isn’t that dire then this is all just noise.

Most discussion/conversation is. Sometimes people just like to vent or share and get feedback. If you don't find this particular discussion on a discussion board of interest to you, it's pretty easy to not be a part of it.

Rex G

03-05-2019, 09:06 AM

My motivation to carry, both a firearm and a very stout blade, in my small city, is more to defend against loose/feral dogs than against human predators. I know that my GSD will defend me, against dogs, but I have seen a very dead GSD that had been disassembled by two pit-types. I do not hate pit-type dogs, but am well aware of the damage they are physically capable of causing, and the proliferation of “rescued” pit-type dogs being placed in unsuitable homes is disturbing, to me.

willie

03-05-2019, 09:15 AM

HCountyGuy

03-05-2019, 09:29 AM

Are we doing this AGAIN?

I’m no dog “expert” but I’ve had GSDs since I was old enough to remember. The exceptions being a dope of a Husky and the current family pet is a black lab who quite literally showed up one day as a puppy (we’re guessing a Christmas present that got dropped off/abandoned). After canvassing the neighborhood to see if he belonged to anyone and even checking for a chip, we decided to keep him.

You know how many folks are scared shitless by GSDs? Quite a few, almost in the same vein as those preaching about how dangerous pit bulls are. Now, are they more capable of inflicting significant injury than smaller breeds? Absolutely. But you know what? I’ve encountered way more aggressive smaller dogs than I have larger ones in my life. One of my HS friends who used to run a kennel and now trains GSDs for defensive work has had similar observations.

It’s kinda like the liberals screaming about curbing gun violence by banning AR-15s because they’re a more capable platform of carnage versus a handgun (larger standard capacity mags, easier to more efficiently wield, etc). Sure it is a more potent option and looks scary, doesn’t mean it’s akways the problem.

Most negative incidents are a result of stupid owners not knowing anything about dogs. They think “awww cute” and that dogs are easy without considering it’s still an animal, you need to train it and look out for the warning signs it might be an imminent problem. Kinda like humans, and we have apologists for career violent criminal dirtbags too.

I can’t speak much to pit bulls as I’ve only really been around a handful for any significant amount of time, but they were some of the biggest dopes you’d ever met. Needy little things that would trample you solely for attention.

At the end of the day, dismissing one breed as being worsevsimply because it gets put under the microscope a bit more is rathervasinine. Not saying to ignore the incidents, but they may be a bit disproportionately reported.

Now cats on the other hand...assholes.

ETA: None of this is meant to be dismissive of the dog’s behavior in the OP. Those are some red flags and that dog’s on the road to the Old Yeller treatment.

LittleLebowski

03-05-2019, 09:31 AM

This persons dog biting folks who aren’t you or your’s doesn’t effect you....

There’s no bullshit there.

I don't want kids to get hurt. You are a breed apologist standing on a soapbox. You are emotionally invested in the breed, I'm emotionally invested in those three boys. See how we differ?

0ddl0t

03-05-2019, 09:31 AM

What is the basis for this opinion, and what are your qualifications?
Some of ya'll sure have a thing for resumes. My resume does not matter, there is zero scientific dispute about the statements I gave (only sociological hopes and dreams that all breeds are always equal and that any inequality is always the result of an oppressed upbringing).

No matter how much coaching and training you throw at it, a chihuahua will never outsprint a field of greyhounds. A Clydesdale won't win a barrel racing championship. And a pigeon won't outdive a hawk...

Still the same mindset as anti gunner wanting to ban your gun for your kids safety
There is a world of difference between saying "this carries a higher risk" and "you can't do that because I think it is too risky for you."

Here are some statistics with sources. Some of these sites have an axe to grind with BSL but nevertheless there is a clear trend.

https://www.dogsbite.org/dog-bite-statistics-quick-statistics.php#death-statistics

https://www.askadamskutner.com/dog-bites/bite-statistics-according-to-dog-breed/

There is a fair bit of documentation in the insurance industry too. Not just from bites, but also from the destruction of property. Poodles bite as much as any breed, but the claim amounts (a good proxy for risk) are small.

More info: https://insurancehub.com/dangerous-dog-list/

Rex G

03-05-2019, 09:32 AM

In my area, many from the hood are irresponsible pit bull breeders. Some fight their pits and select for size and aggression. Offspring populate the community. The dogs usually are chained. Regardless, few of these owners socialize their dogs, which have an exceedingly high prey drive to start with. When apologists end up with these pups, some of these folks may deny realities of their animals being the result of a long lone of irresponsible breeding. People screwed up the dogs.

Quote: “The dogs usually are chained.”

Notably, the one of the above-mentioned pit-types, that had disassembled the GSD, was dragging quite a length of chain. Of course, one way to make a dog become meaner is to keep it on a chain.

Aray

03-05-2019, 09:38 AM

Deleted due to no value added.

11B10

03-05-2019, 09:45 AM

So much truth here. Personal background: Grandfather was a VET, and I probably handled/rough-housed/played with, more dogs than anyone here has ever seen. Having said that, I have exactly ONE very close encounter with a pit. Two years ago, I had just started my mower in my front yard, when a good friend, walking her terrier mix, arrived at the corner across the street. A Wrangler was parked nearby. As my friend got closer, a large pit jumped out of the Wrangler's back flap and seized the terrier, his upper jaw clamping down on the inside of the terrier's left rear leg and began to shake/twist it, trying to rip it off. The scene evolved into: My friend trying to pull her terrier one way & several teens that were the occupants of the Wrangler trying to make the pit release (mostly hysterical screaming which only exacerbated the situation). By this time, I had crossed the street, my right hand on my P30SK (still out of sight under my shirt). As I approached, one kid had begun to choke the pit, one arm under his jaw and the other on top of his neck. All this ^^^ took only seconds. Story has a good news/bad news ending. The choke worked very quickly, much to my surprise. I was totally prepped to shoot the pit,
and would have, if he hadn't released as soon as he did. The terrier has made a full recovery, but the owner, who still is my friend and walks her dog through the area every day, has never followed up with the provisions afforded her under state law. She doesn't know where the dog is/who owns the dog/whether anything was done with it. This, despite my urging and pointing her to the site that explains her rights. My biggest concern is that my only grandchild (a beautiful girl who just turned 4) lives and plays both at her house, just 1/2 block from where this happened, and at our house, across the street from this scene. I don't think it's a stretch to conclude that the pit wouldn't know the difference between a small dog and a small child. I did attempt to shorten this, but it seemed everything was to the point.

JclInAtx

03-05-2019, 10:30 AM

My wife’s coworker is a highly educated teacher. She’s also a pit bull apologist. About four months ago, her family (husband, three boys, the oldest is 8) adopted a four year female pit bull that was “abandoned due to lack of funds to pay current bill” at some dog boarding kennel.

So far:

- the dog has “nipped the youngest kid because the kid bit the dog’s tail”.

- the dog bit the husband’s arm, tearing flesh and drawing blood. Excuse (I shit you not) is that the husband
“startled” the dog

I don’t see anything good coming out of this dog adoption and I think that someone is gonna get hurt.

I'd have to agree with your assessment. There's been a lot of shitting on the dog in this thread, but it seems to me that may only be half the problem. There's not much background given for the family but how much experience do they have with dogs? Dogs need training (many owners need this to), attention and exercise - some breeds more than others. Any breed will develop behavior problems if not properly cared for. I also don't think any dog should be put in the position of getting bit by a child. That's just asking for trouble no matter what breed it is. A pit is more a concern than a chihuahua but either can turn and bite back. A cat may be a more suitable pet for this family.

LittleLebowski

03-05-2019, 10:53 AM

I'd have to agree with your assessment. There's been a lot of shitting on the dog in this thread, but it seems to me that may only be half the problem. There's not much background given for the family but how much experience do they have with dogs? Dogs need training (many owners need this to), attention and exercise - some breeds more than others. Any breed will develop behavior problems if not properly cared for. I also don't think any dog should be put in the position of getting bit by a child. That's just asking for trouble no matter what breed it is. A pit is more a concern than a chihuahua but either can turn and bite back. A cat may be a more suitable pet for this family.

In a household like this (three boys, dog being left alone for most of the day), there's no way I would adopt any strong willed breed like a pit, Malinois, GSD, etc, especially a four year old rescue dog. For what it's worth, the mother (wife's coworker) is pretty clearly a breed apologist whom is emotionally invested so I'm not at all sure that the excuse about the kid biting is actually true.

RevolverRob

03-05-2019, 10:59 AM

Some of ya'll sure have a thing for resumes. My resume does not matter, there is zero scientific dispute about the statements I gave

Well, it kind of matters, because what you just said is wrong. If you're a subject matter expert in quantitative genetics and behavioral trait assessment - by all means - not only tell us, but set us right.

Returning back to the point:

I'm not going through the entirety of vet literature and genotyping of dog breeds, crossed with quantitative assessment of traits, but I can guarantee you that there is plenty of scientific dispute. I can guarantee you this, because there is not a consensus at all that behaviors are as genetically controlled as we want to believe in any organism. Behavior is an incredibly plastic trait and underlying behavioral shifts are virtually impossible (at present) to map to the genetic loci that designate the differences between dog breeds. While I have no doubt that behavioral traits are tied to the phenotypic shifts we see in dog breeds, I do not believe it is anywhere as close to a 1:1 situation or even a Many:1 situation, we're looking at a Many:Many situation.

And for the record my resume: Senior Graduate Fellow (about 6-months from being Dr. RevolverRob) in Evolutionary Biology studying the evolution of the genetic basis for trait shifts that define macroevolutionary processes. I hold an advanced (M.S.) degree in Earth Sciences with a focus on Paleobiology and Earth Systems, and a B.A. in Anthropology.

(only sociological hopes and dreams that all breeds are always equal and that any inequality is always the result of an oppressed upbringing).

There is, of course, some equilibrium of nature and nurture in these situations. But I'm not inclined to say that it is always directly a reflection of breed, when evidence of proper nurture tends to indicate to the contrary.

Let us remember that statistically speaking there are thousands of pitbulls that never harm a fly and there are dozens that do. That's a case of the outliers on the spectrum doing the most public image damage to a group.

Statistically - No different than mass shooters doing damage to over a hundred million gun owners.

No matter how much coaching and training you throw at it, a chihuahua will never outsprint a field of greyhounds. A Clydesdale won't win a barrel racing championship. And a pigeon won't outdive a hawk...

What you just described are mostly functions of phenotypic constraint, not behavior. It's important to separate those two, particularly if we're claiming a genetic basis to behavioral traits (be they desirable or undesirable).

____

All of this said LL is right. Regardless of breed, the dog in the OP likely needs not only significant training, but the owner(s) definitely do. In this case, because the adopter is a "pitbull apologist", her bias has allowed her to adopt a dog that likely has special needs (i.e., advanced and significant training), but she assumes love alone with rehabilitate it. This has caused her to not only misjudge a rather large animal, but has allowed her to easily ignore numerous red flags. Just like "love" won't rehabilitate a bratty child, it will not rehab a bratty dog. You either double down and work hard with the dog (which can cure the issues in most cases) are you euthanize it. Bad dogs, like bad people, don't get to be part of our society.

LittleLebowski

03-05-2019, 11:04 AM

The owner is oscillating between blaming her husband for "startling" the dog (also a breed apologist) and spewing the below excuse:

since pits are a fighting breed, the eeeevil fighting dog breeders set the pit bull females up to be “raped” by the males and when her husband tapped the dog on its flank to go walk it, it got violent because genetic rape memories and/or the dog was raped

RevolverRob

03-05-2019, 11:15 AM

The owner is oscillating between blaming her husband for "startling" the dog (also a breed apologist) and spewing the below excuse:

What the FUCK are "genetic rape memories"?!

Holy fucking shit, that's a fucking stupid ass pseudo-science statement. That is literally among the worst I've heard.

As far as the dog being 'raped'. I've never seen a dog get raped. If a dog really does not want to be mounted, they will turn around and rip the fucking face off of the mounter. Also, way to anthropomorphize a dog. Unless the dog was abused and violated by a human, I doubt it is emotionally scarred by hanging out with other dogs, unless it was literally a chew toy for them.

My guess is the dog was abandoned, because it had emotionally weak owners, like it does now as well, and it was a behavioral problem child, due to lack of discipline. This dog could be a fucking Dalmatian and have the same problems. This isn't a breed issue, it's an owner issue.

You should respond by saying, "Well, your anthropomorphization of the dog has caused it extreme emotional distress. Learning that its ancestors were raped and that is possess genetic rape memories has caused it to lose its natural identity. At this point the only solution is to either put yourself or the dog down."

Genetic Rape Memories...what in the actual fuck.

Alpha Sierra

03-05-2019, 11:15 AM

The owner is oscillating between blaming her husband for "startling" the dog (also a breed apologist) and spewing the below excuse:
since pits are a fighting breed, the eeeevil fighting dog breeders set the pit bull females up to be “raped” by the males and when her husband tapped the dog on its flank to go walk it, it got violent because genetic rape memories and/or the dog was raped

She's batshit crazy (all due respect to GuanoLoco)

willie

03-05-2019, 11:17 AM

In my area when you see a kid walking through the hood with his pit on a leash, he's headed to a dog fight contest. These are high stakes games. Having a mean dog gives the guy status. Puppies from mean dogs bring premium prices.

My hunting buddy's profession is animal control. He is allowed to go armed but has not personally had to kill a dog. However, on two occasions, a police officer has had to shoot and kill two pits who were attacking him. Usually when catching an errant pit, he drives up and invites the dog to jump into his truck with him. Then together they look for the owner. That's my friend's temperament. He spends a lot of time chasing and catching stray chickens. He figured out that one chicken escaped continuously because the chicken learned that my friend would feed it. But back to pits. My buddy concluded that a pit might make a really good family dog but then could go down the street to kill somebody else's dog. Two neighbors have been attacked in their yards when a random pit appeared. They shot the dogs.

Sensei

03-05-2019, 11:19 AM

What is the basis for this opinion, and what are your qualifications?

Most people having that opinion base it on old empiric and a lot of recent anecdotal evidence. The empiric evidence is old because the CDC stopped collecting data on breed-specific bite patterns in the 90s due to the explosion in mixed-breed animals making it increasingly difficult to accurately assign bites to specific breeds. When we did collect that data, animals identified as pit bull terrier types generally led the pack for serious bites during most reporting periods despite being a relatively unpopular breed back then (meaning a disproportionate number of serious bites for their prevelance in the population):

35808

When it comes to the destructive capacity of dog bites, I liken that data to wound ballistics - some good among a lot of crap. Much of variability exists due to heterogeneity in how the measurements are taken (i.e. front vs rear of the jaw, anesthetized animal vs. awake). Having said that, the pit bull breed consistently ranks up there with rotts and GSD.

As for my qualifications, I’m board certified in emergency medicine and see dog bites on a fairly regular basis. I’ve only seen life or limb-threatening injuries a handful of times (maybe 4 or 5 in 15 years of this shit). I cannot say with certainty that all of the bad bites were from pit bulls, but I can remember only 1 specific situation being a chow instead of a pit.

I'd prefer that all the cheap/easy/bullshit potshots that everyone keeps taking at each other not happen, at least not on PF.

Apparently we found a topic more controversial that blonds vs. brunettes or Asians vs. Brazilians. Who wudda thunk it...

mtnbkr

03-05-2019, 11:32 AM

Apparently we found a topic more controversial that blonds vs. brunettes or Asians vs. Brazilians. Who wudda thunk it...

How did I miss those threads?

Chris

Gadfly

03-05-2019, 11:39 AM

"Its the owner not the breed" seems to be thrown around a lot. It has some merit.

BUT, we have been using selective breeding for hundreds and hundreds of years. We selected traits and created scent dogs, retrievers, herders, rat dogs, bite dogs, tracking dogs... So it is safe to say some breed have been selected for being more protective and aggressive. Period. You don't buy a Bloodhound to heard cattle, you use it to track scent. You don't buy and Australian Blue healer to retrieve ducks on a hunt, you use them as cattle dogs. And that Lab that loves to swim and bring you ducks will looks silly and confused when you yell "sic 'em"... Breeds encourage traits.

Does the way they were trained and raised matter? Yes. but there are breed differences. Anyone here heard of a bite or attack by a Golden Retriever? Or a Lab? I am shocked there was a Great Dane bit recorded in the chart above, as I have never know them to be more than docile 130lb lap dogs (we owned two in my youth). Being in LE, our agency has shot a few dogs, mostly Pits. I have been bitten twice, both times by German Shepherds (one of whom I had been friends with for 6+ years!).

This seems quite the emotional topic. Take emotion out of it, and at least admit that different breeds have encouraged different traits and temperaments over the centuries. It is a fact. Some breeds are more aggressive than others, although individual results will always vary.

BehindBlueI's

03-05-2019, 11:42 AM

How did I miss those threads?

Chris

No shit, link?

Also, obligatory "why not both"?

Duke

03-05-2019, 11:43 AM

I don't want kids to get hurt. You are a breed apologist standing on a soapbox. You are emotionally invested in the breed, I'm emotionally invested in those three boys. See how we differ?

Actually I’m not even an animal person - so not a breed/species apologist at all.

Stop putting words in my mouth (see how that works)

If you’re that emotionally involved - call the appropriate authorities and report the situation.

Unless/until you’re involved to that level then this is all just virtue signaling.

JohnO

03-05-2019, 11:48 AM

I have a friend who adopted a pit from a shelter. They had the dog for a few years with no issue. The dog was well integrated into the family and the three kids all were very fond of the dog. Out of the blue the pit bit a little girl visiting their house on the face. Fortunately there wasn't any lasting effects from the bite. That dog was put down within 24 hours.

I don't think you can blame the breed without knowing what an adopted dog's life was like before you bring it home. However it may be fair to say that certain breeds may be prone to problems. The risk of those problems may be heightened in areas where dogs like pits are owned by a certain element and abandoned.

BehindBlueI's

03-05-2019, 11:48 AM

Some of ya'll sure have a thing for resumes. My resume does not matter

See, it actually does. Not all opinions are equal, and finding out how someone knows what they thing they know is part of the vetting process as to if you know your ass from a muddy hole in the ground on the topic.

Well, it kind of matters, because what you just said is wrong. If you're a subject matter expert in quantitative genetics and behavioral trait assessment - by all means - not only tell us, but set us right.

Returning back to the point:

I'm not going through the entirety of vet literature and genotyping of dog breeds, crossed with quantitative assessment of traits, but I can guarantee you that there is plenty of scientific dispute. ...

See?

"How do you know what you know" is a pretty powerful question, both to evaluate others and for some self-awareness checks.

RevolverRob

03-05-2019, 12:04 PM

Or a Lab?

I have, as in, I have been bitten by a Lab, one of the two dogs I've been actually bitten by before (I'm not counting playful mouthing behavior). This was a chocolate Lab and she was about 10 or 11 years old, I was 17 or so. It was a friend's dog that had known basically its whole life. But as the dog aged it got dementia and was becoming blind. As a result, it was much easier to startle the dog and set off an instinctual response. One that drew blood in my case. The family put her down not long after that, because she was really not having a great life at that point.

TBH - I've seen a lot of older Labs, Goldens, GSDs, Rottweilers, etc., that were much more likely to nip at a person, because they were old and cranky. I'm at the point now, where a dog that has grey hair (from aging) around its nose is a tell for me to be much more careful with that dog in handling and approach. Some old dogs are still big puppies, some old dogs are cranky old bastards and will bite at the least provocation.

I'd be willing to bet most bites by relatively docile dogs are probably age/senility related.

TGS

03-05-2019, 12:05 PM

Every time someone says pit bulls are violent, someone is guaranteed to post a pic of their toddler riding one like He-Man and Battlecat.

Well, that's true of nearly any dog breed. You could take "pit bulls" and replace it with GSD/Mal, and your maxim would be validated by people in this very thread and pictures they've posted on P-F.com of their toddler playing with their high drive dog, while in this thread denouncing the idea of having a high-drive dog in the same household as toddlers.

Lots of virtue signaling and emotional drivel in this thread. I think a lot of people need to take a step back and breath for a second.

Gadfly

03-05-2019, 12:07 PM

Side note:

My dad tells a tale of his youth. When he was a boy, they lived next door to an old preacher and his wife. Old preacher had a chow that would always bark at him, but never really bothered him. One day, My grandfather pulls up into the driveway to hear the old wife screaming for help. The chow had attacked the preacher and had him down on the ground by the throat. The wife's hands were bloody from trying to break it up. Grandpa being to good union carpenter he was reached into his pickup truck bed and grabbed a scrap of 2x4, and knocked the s--t out of the dog. Which only made it mad, and it came at Grandpa. Grandpa gave it a couple more pine wood kisses, and it decided to go back to the preacher.

"Enough of this..." So, Grandpa went back to the pick up, where he retrieved his Rock-o-la M1 carbine from behind the seat, and ended the chow. Old preacher lived, but was messed up for life.

Grandpa was not one to play around.

Side side note (not dog related):
Apparently, a Scout master in my dads scout troop had some suspicions activities. My dad said that during a scout meeting my grandma had taken to, Grandpa and two other dads showed up and escorted the Scout master in question outside. A few minutes later, the scoutmaster came back into the meeting and announced that would be his last night working with scouts. He left town shortly there after. Dad tells me he did not know what that was all about until he was around 20, and Grandpa filled him in about the rumors as to why the guy had left his previous town and come to Houston. within 24 hours of the rumor hitting, the local dads decided to "invite him to move on".

Different times.

RevolverRob

03-05-2019, 12:10 PM

I think a lot of people need to take a step back and breath for a second.

I'll tell you what make bad pets...Camels.

So grumpy...and spitty...and bitey...and humpy.

That said, I absolutely want a miniature llama or alpaca. Who could say no to these fuzzy guys?

35811

Larry Sellers

03-05-2019, 12:12 PM

Pit/Boxer owner here, we adopted our guy from a local shelter at about 8 months old. We were told he was living in a car after his owner was evicted...

He has a large scar on his head, unsure where it came from and no real other behavioral issues that we have noticed/witnessed. He came from a "hood" as others have called it and I'm sure he had less than any training or proper nutrition. I have 3 nephews all under the age of 5, and when they visit I would be lying if I said I wasn't "on edge" just because I'm hyper vigilant about that stuff anyway. He was cornered on the couch one evening with my wife and the youngest kept swiping at his face, my wife told my nephew to leave him be but we all know how kids are. He swiped at the dog and the dog growled and pushed further into the couch. That was his way of saying "I am uncomfortable" nobody was bit but my nephew was scared. I counted that as a win for us.

We trained him and he knows the basic commands,but I would be lying if I said he had the recall of a trained working dog. We love him, but don't get me wrong, if he injures something or someone badly (unfortunately reactionary) he would be re-homed or put down if need be. I can tell you for certain that when our guy passes away, we will be buying a dog from a reputable breeder, most likely a GSD because I have always wanted a dog with that drive and personally I believe starting with a clean slate (puppy) vs a rescue has some advantages.

He's a strong dog, and I'm not oblivious to the fact that they can be violent. I take a dry chemical extinguisher with me on runs at work if its for a reported dog bite and PD hasn't secured the dog, it's worked on a few dogs and moved them away from us.

Realized "I" is in the post alot. I think it started with the Pit reference since we have one but I think we have to give them all a fair shake. I try and do that with folks I encounter.....

TGS

03-05-2019, 12:13 PM

I'll tell you what make bad pets...Camels.

So grumpy...and spitty...and bitey...and humpy

Seriously, Rob, camels are the biggest fucking assholes I've ever met.

They're funny as shit though, because the noises they make are like the gnarliest farts you've ever heard in your life...….but coming from their mouth.

LittleLebowski

03-05-2019, 12:14 PM

Actually I’m not even an animal person - so not a breed/species apologist at all.

Stop putting words in my mouth (see how that works)

If you’re that emotionally involved - call the appropriate authorities and report the situation.

Unless/until you’re involved to that level then this is all just virtue signaling.

I didn’t put words in your mouth, I called you a breed apologist due to your emotional response and lack of logic. No, I’m not going to call CPS and get those kids taken away from their home by the state due to a potential dog bite.

Yes, I’m gonna discuss my feelings on this matter on the discussion forum I helped found. I’m not a virtue signaling kind of guy, I’d say the many folks on here whom have met me in real life would agree on that. If you don’t like what I have to say in this thread, unsubscribe.

LittleLebowski

03-05-2019, 12:15 PM

Coyotesfan97 curious about your thoughts on this.

Dan_S

03-05-2019, 12:17 PM

I'll tell you what make bad pets...Camels.

So grumpy...and spitty...and bitey...and humpy.

That said, I absolutely want a miniature llama or alpaca. Who could say no to these fuzzy guys?

35811

I could. Ever work with alpacas?

There’re a camel with wool, and, in addition, obstinate ornery creatures that can only be handled due to their relatively small size. I’ve picked up more than one, and hauled it onto the shearing mat. Oh, you gotta tie them down while your shearing them, and put a sandbag over their neck behind the head, unless you like being covered in green goo they barf up when upset.

blues

03-05-2019, 12:23 PM

Pit/Boxer owner here, we adopted our guy from a local shelter at about 8 months old. We were told he was living in a car after his owner was evicted...

Our little rescue gal, a 55 lb Boxer / Staffie mix, (our best guess and that of the vets), is a bit headstrong as well. She understands the basics but isn't as receptive to following orders as well as our Weimaraner was (who was also a rescue from a breed specific organization).

Definitely nature / nurture at work with dogs...but the owners make a huge difference in the balance.

LittleLebowski

03-05-2019, 12:27 PM

I've rescued two strong willed, high drive dogs; a male 4 year old GSD and an 18 month old Mal. Both took a few months to start showing their true personalities, but as shepherd breeds; they simply became protective and very bonded. Both were infinitely patient with children. The one dog (rescue Chow/Lab mix) I have owned was put down the day it snapped at my daughter. My current dog is a 5 year old GSD female that I bought. Again, very patient with children and very protective/watchful.

Larry Sellers

03-05-2019, 12:27 PM

Our little rescue gal, a 55 lb Boxer / Staffie mix, (our best guess and that of the vets), is a bit headstrong as well. She understands the basics but isn't as receptive to following orders as well as our Weimaraner was (who was also a rescue from a breed specific organization).

Definitely nature / nurture at work with dogs...but the owners make a huge difference in the balance.He is a good alarm for my wife when I'm at the firehouse for 24, he's not perfect and it's absolutely dependent on who's around and what the level of training is.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

RevolverRob

03-05-2019, 12:42 PM

Seriously, Rob, camels are the biggest fucking assholes I've ever met.

They're funny as shit though, because the noises they make are like the gnarliest farts you've ever heard in your life...….but coming from their mouth.

1) You missed the great burn opportunity, "...biggest fucking assholes I've ever met...but I haven't actually met you, yet." :eek:

2) They are absolutely hilarious animals. And very cool from a natural history perspective as well.

But yea as Dan_S noted - they're kind of a real pain in the ass as livestock, let alone "pets". But then again, most animals are a pain in the ass, some are just less so. Growing up a neighbor had both alpacas and llamas and they were fairly docile, but stubborn animals. I never helped with shearing them, so I can't say how that was. But I know when shearing time came, it was a week-long affair, with lots of grunting, groaning, and bitching...on both sides of the equation.

0ddl0t

03-05-2019, 12:46 PM

Well, it kind of matters, because what you just said is wrong.
Doctoral dissertation notwithstanding, NU-UH!!!

:P

I'm not going through the entirety of vet literature and genotyping of dog breeds, crossed with quantitative assessment of traits, but I can guarantee you that there is plenty of scientific dispute. I can guarantee you this, because there is not a consensus at all that behaviors are as genetically controlled as we want to believe in any organism.
The claim I made was:

But it does have to do with the breed. Pit bulls are:

1) more prone to violence than the average breed
2) capable of doing more damage than the average breed

That doesn't mean you can't have a good pitbull (or rottweiler or doberman etc), but pitbulls, as a breed, are clearly more dangerous than golden retrievers or beagles. Nature AND nurture are at play here...
If you have a credible study from the journal of quantitative genetics and behavioral traits that says otherwise, by all means - let's hear it!

Behavior is an incredibly plastic trait and underlying behavioral shifts are virtually impossible (at present) to map to the genetic loci that designate the differences between dog breeds. While I have no doubt that behavioral traits are tied to the phenotypic shifts we see in dog breeds, I do not believe it is anywhere as close to a 1:1 situation or even a Many:1 situation, we're looking at a Many:Many situation.
Your inability to find a genetic loci does not make my statements untrue. Some behavioral traits are easy to quantify. For example, does an animal respond to fear with agression? Simple test with binary results. From there you can go further: do dogs respond with agression when the agressor is larger? Smaller? Same size? You can attempt to quantify degrees of agression: hackles & snarl? feigned charge? full attack?

Pitbulls:
*are more likely than the average breed to respond to fear with agression
*are less likely to break off an attack once it has started
*are stronger than the average breed, particularly in the head, neck, and jaws

You will, of course, observe considerable diversity within a breed (some beagles will respond more aggressively than some pit bulls -- and we've all seen a tiny purse dog chasing a much larger dog). But there are meaningful and measureable differences between breeds. To quote the eminent software engineer James Damore:
https://video-images.vice.com/_uncategorized/1502146696203-Screen-Shot-2017-08-07-at-65310-PM.png

See, it actually does. Not all opinions are equal, and finding out how someone knows what they thing they know is part of the vetting process as to if you know your ass from a muddy hole in the ground on the topic.
It matters only if you wish to substitute someone else's thought for your own.

JohnO

03-05-2019, 01:01 PM

Pit/Boxer owner here, we adopted our guy from a local shelter at about 8 months old. We were told he was living in a car after his owner was evicted...

My friend who had the Pit probably picked him up in the pound in your work area. They live down behind Roberts Dodge. There is a strong possibility that their Pit came from less than ideal living conditions. Now they have two English Setters they purchased as puppies.

I remember back 25 years ago when the local TV news programs were reporting about "softer breeds" being stolen for use as bait dogs to train up fighting dogs. Given the state of society today it's a safe bet that the dog underworld hasn't gotten any better.

NH Shooter

03-05-2019, 01:02 PM

- the dog has “nipped the youngest kid because the kid bit the dog’s tail”.

Animals capable of inflicting harm on humans sometimes do so when tormented by unsupervised/undisciplined children, then the parents-by-biology-only can't fathom why little Damien got his face torn off by their newly adopted pit bull terrier.

And of course the dog gets shot, because that's easier to justify than shitty parenting and poor decision-making.

Dan_S

03-05-2019, 01:07 PM

Animals capable of inflicting harm on humans sometimes do so when tormented by unsupervised/undisciplined children, then the parents-by-biology-only can't fathom why little Damien got his face torn off by their newly adopted pit bull terrier.

And of course the dog gets shot, because that's easier to justify than shitty parenting and poor decision-making.

As someone who’s earliest memories are of UNPROVOKED aggression by dogs, I have a VERY different view.

Dogs are, to me, just that. At the slightest sign of aggression towards a human that is not for the protection of the owner, the dog needs to be put down, full stop.

To this day, I’m terrified of dogs. There’s some serious trauma there. On the flip side, I’ve worked with 2000 pound bulls, so I’m not a fraidy-cat.

Having said that, yes, persons, young or old, that are unaccountable for how they treat animals shouldn’t be surprised if said animal doesn’t appreciate being tormented, however, I have personally experience a lot of absolutely unprovoked aggression from dogs throughout my life.

Not to put words in LittleLebowski ‘s (LL, by all means correct me if I’m wrong) mouth, but our backgrounds and experiences being what they are, I think we both view dogs as many in the farming/ranch in world view them. They’re awesome working companions, and serve a very necessary purpose, be that guarding livestock, herding cattle/sheep, or protecting your home. The minute a dog ceases to act appropriately - be that killing the livestock it is supposed to be protecting, or biting a family member, it is no longer useful, beneficial, or reasonable to keep it - it is now a liability- and so it is removed from the equation permanently.

RevolverRob

03-05-2019, 01:10 PM

The claim I made was:

If you have a credible study from the journal of quantitative genetics and behavioral traits that says otherwise, by all means - let's hear it!

That's not actually how this works. You broad claim is:

But it does have to do with the breed. Pit bulls are:

1) more prone to violence than the average breed
2) capable of doing more damage than the average breed

In order to qualify those statements you must provide the corresponding evidence. The NULL hypotheses are that:

1) "all breeds are equally prone to violence"
2) "all breeds are capable of doing equal damage"

If you have the evidence to falsify those hypotheses, then by all means present it. You provided some evidence for falsifying hypothesis 2, by linking to the insurance index, where it appears pitbulls on average cause more damage when they bite. But that's far away from confirming the idea.

Your inability to find a genetic loci does not make my statements untrue. Some behavioral traits are easy to quantify. For example, does an animal respond to fear with agression? Simple test with binary results. From there you can go further: do dogs respond with agression when the agressor is larger? Smaller? Same size? You can attempt to quantify degrees of agression: hackles & snarl? feigned charge? full attack?

Pitbulls:
*are more likely than the average breed to respond to fear with agression
*are less likely to break off an attack once it has started
*are stronger than the average breed, particularly in the head, neck, and jaws

So...can you cite the study where the data you claim, came from? Or are you simply guessing?

You will, of course, observe considerable diversity within a breed (some beagles will respond more aggressively than some pit bulls -- and we've all seen a tiny purse dog chasing a much larger dog). But there are meaningful and measureable differences between breeds. To quote the eminent software engineer James Damore:

I never denied measurable differences between breeds. No one is mistaking a Chihuahua for a Rottweiler. The problem you have here is, you're making a claim that you are proposing is backed up with an underlying genetic basis, but without clear evidence. Remember, by context "breed" is a set of traits crossed to produce a desired outcome (i.e. classic Mendelian traits).

I'd honestly LOVE to see data for what constitutes an "average dog". I doubt very much that one can accurately quantify average dogness for Canis familiaris, because so much artificial selection has occurred that there isn't really an average any more. If you go look at Canis latrans (Coyote) you will see a much more uniform structure and set of traits...which, by the by, don't look like a pitbill in the skull. In fact, brachycephalia (the pushed in snout of mastiffs and bulls) is a selectively disadvantageous trait, because it compromises immune system and breathing in wild animals. It works fine if someone is feeding you.

The irony is, I'm asking you to demonstrate the data that contradict point two, which with the broad base generalizations you've made is exactly what you're doing, treating an average as representative of a population.

I could also get into all the details of how that figure is actually wrong. For instance: Not all biological populations overlap and therefore generalizations of means is a perfectly acceptable way of treating them. But hey, computer scientists have been telling biologists for years that we don't know dick about data, particularly biological data. And then they start messing with very messy biological data and realize that 1s and 0s are a lot cleaner and neater than reality. If you've written software, you have complete knowledge of the system (in theory). In biology that is impossible.

Duke

03-05-2019, 01:18 PM

I didn’t put words in your mouth, I called you a breed apologist due to your emotional response and lack of logic. No, I’m not going to call CPS and get those kids taken away from their home by the state due to a potential dog bite.

Yes, I’m gonna discuss my feelings on this matter on the discussion forum I helped found. I’m not a virtue signaling kind of guy, I’d say the many folks on here whom have met me in real life would agree on that. If you don’t like what I have to say in this thread, unsubscribe.

Everything you say is right

Everything I say is wrong. Got it.

That’s very a logical and devoid of emotion position for you to take.

Thanks for setting me straight.

LittleLebowski

03-06-2019, 09:16 AM

And we're back online!

BehindBlueI's

03-06-2019, 09:58 AM

It matters only if you wish to substitute someone else's thought for your own.

Which we all do routinely, and should, as none of us are experts in every field. Learning from actual experts is a pretty handy thing to be able to do. So is sorting out who's an actual expert, who just thinks they are, and who's just a poser with a keyboard.

0ddl0t

03-06-2019, 10:51 AM

In order to qualify those statements you must provide the corresponding evidence.
Where I come from, the burden of proof is placed on the person who is saying "you're wrong" - especially when discussing a widely known belief.

But for the record, I did post a link to supporting evidence earlier in this thread. The insurance industry collects all sorts of data on losses and homeowner dog claims have become a significant expense to the point many now maintain a dangerous dog breed list of 7-14 breeds. Pitbulls are on every dangerous dog breed list I've seen. I consider monetary damages a pretty good proxy for physical damages.

I can also provide personal anecdotes from my time growing up & working with trainers for seeing-eye, tracking, and medical alert dogs along with bread & butter obedience work with the general population. Anybody who has ever spent considerable time at dog parks and dog beaches can also tell you that more often than not the aggressive problem dog running amuck is a pitbull. I also now own and manage substantial residential rental real estate and can assure you that pitbulls have done by far the most property damage (we're talking crazy stuff like chewing completely through door frames. Not trim, all the way through the fricking frame!). There is zero, zero dispute from reputable trainers and landlords that pitbulls are the most problematic breed today.

Remember, by context "breed" is a set of traits crossed to produce a desired outcome (i.e. classic Mendelian traits).
Care to tell the class what Mendelian traits were desired in the terrier group?

They were bred to work solo (they are less sociable)
They were bred to seek out ground rodents (fantastic/strong diggers as well as being very tenacious)
They were bred to kill ferociously (trademark terrier flesh ripping neck oscillation)

And how about the bully breeds? They were bred to bait bulls. Yes, as in Toro Toro... As such, they are not intimidated by size disparity and they respond counterintuitively to fear/aggression.

And those are just the AKC-type traits. Over the years unscrupulous breeders have bred pitbulls specifically for dogfighting, amping up the strength, agression, and tenacity.

Casual Friday

03-06-2019, 11:42 AM

I find it somewhat strange that people don't believe that a Pitbull is capable of inflicting much more bodily harm than most other breeds. I understand the debate about whether or not they're more prone to it, but it seems a bit delusional to think an attack from a Lab or other medium sized dog is equivalent. I have a friend who's owned pits for years and years, his feeling is that they are not the right dog for 99% of the people who have them because they are often underestimated and people overestimate their own ability to deal with them. The last time there was a Pitbull thread, I invited him to join the forum and give his thoughts, but since he has very little interest in guns he wasn't interested in joining a gun forum just to talk about dogs.

One thing he brought up last time I talked to him was that there are a lot of breeds who are called Pitbulls and look similar to Pitbulls by the public and news outlets who may or may not be in the pitbull family. This may or may not have caused dog attacks and bites to be credited towards Pitbull attacks, when in fact it was one of the many breeds who are not.

The most aggressive and dangerous dog he has owned, his own words, was a Presa Canario Cane Corso mix, neither of which are Pitbulls or so I'm told. I've been around other dogs of his and this one is the only one that I was truly afraid to turn my back on. It was fucking huge, and built like a roided up body builder. When you would pet him, it was like a bag of cinder blocks with short fur. He could not leave someone alone with the dog if he had to use the bathroom or leave the room, typically he would put the dog up if he had company. If that dog would have ever bit or attacked someone, he had no doubt that it would have been labeled as a Pitbull in the news. He had him put down when the dog was 7 or 8 because he started showing signs of aggressive behavior towards him.

Totem Polar

03-06-2019, 12:17 PM

a Presa Canario Cane Corso mix...

That’ll do if you can’t find a honey badger to breed with satan.

TGS

03-06-2019, 12:20 PM

I find it somewhat strange that people don't believe that a Pitbull is capable of inflicting much more bodily harm than most other breeds.

I haven't seen or heard anyone claim such.

Casual Friday

03-06-2019, 01:14 PM

I haven't seen or heard anyone claim such.

Never in your life or in this thread? Because I was making reference to things I've seen posted elsewhere, or I would have quoted the person in my post.

LittleLebowski

03-06-2019, 01:16 PM

blues

03-06-2019, 01:19 PM

Well, fuck it since this thread got kinda weird... What's everyone think about this possible new PF forum knife? Tamara thinks highly of this brand. I'm ordering one of their knives, just not sure which one.

Just because Tam has a sharp tongue and sharp wit doesn't automatically make her an expert on blades. ;)

(That said, I have no personal experience with the brand.)

mtnbkr

03-06-2019, 01:23 PM

Well, fuck it since this thread got kinda weird... What's everyone think about this possible new PF forum knife? Tamara thinks highly of this brand. I'm ordering one of their knives, just not sure which one.

https://www.amazon.com/BESTECH-KNIVES-Swordfish-Linerlock-BTKG03C/dp/B07B2FRXDG/ref=sr_1_10?crid=39TMJWEF752E7&keywords=bestech+knife&qid=1551896086&s=gateway&sprefix=bestech%2Caps%2C131&sr=8-10

Can we trust that it's actually D2 and not 440A as some tests have discovered? I'm wary of Chinesium knives.

Ontario makes a RAT-1 with D2 steel and orange scales for about the same price. Made in Taiwan (not China yet).

Benchmade's deep concealment pocketclip fits too!

Chris

Totem Polar

03-06-2019, 01:26 PM

Well, fuck it since this thread got kinda weird... What's everyone think about this possible new PF forum knife? Tamara thinks highly of this brand. I'm ordering one of their knives, just not sure which one.

https://www.amazon.com/BESTECH-KNIVES-Swordfish-Linerlock-BTKG03C/dp/B07B2FRXDG/ref=sr_1_10?crid=39TMJWEF752E7&keywords=bestech+knife&qid=1551896086&s=gateway&sprefix=bestech%2Caps%2C131&sr=8-10

Always good to have options:

https://www.knifecenter.com/item/SKCC0505/stedemon-knife-company-c05-flipper-folding-knife-14c28n-black-stonewashed-spear-point-blade-orange-g10-handles

https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-fedcb/images/stencil/1280x1280/products/4451/11189/IMG_9680__52043.1518026326.JPG

LittleLebowski

03-06-2019, 01:46 PM

Always good to have options:

https://www.knifecenter.com/item/SKCC0505/stedemon-knife-company-c05-flipper-folding-knife-14c28n-black-stonewashed-spear-point-blade-orange-g10-handles

https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-fedcb/images/stencil/1280x1280/products/4451/11189/IMG_9680__52043.1518026326.JPG

Fuck, I want that.

Totem Polar

03-06-2019, 01:55 PM

Fuck, I want that.

Right? The Chinese can do a smexy, hard-on inducing blade; no wonder there’s almost 1.4 billion of them...

;)

RevolverRob

03-06-2019, 02:25 PM

Where I come from, the burden of proof is placed on the person who is saying "you're wrong" - especially when discussing a widely known belief.

We're not dealing with law. We're dealing with science. In science - to falsify the null, you must provide the evidence that falsifies it. Then we debate if you adequately did that and provided sufficient evidence to back up your claim. A "widely known belief" is irrelevant in science (or in court) absent evidence of it. You made a claim of zero scientific dispute. You were asked to provide both a context for that statement (e.g., resume) and evidence for it. You've provided very minimal supporting evidence. And nothing that makes us think that your opinion should be considered to carry more weight due to substantial pre-knowledge. (This is why folks here like resumes).

But for the record, I did post a link to supporting evidence earlier in this thread. The insurance industry collects all sorts of data on losses and homeowner dog claims have become a significant expense to the point many now maintain a dangerous dog breed list of 7-14 breeds. Pitbulls are on every dangerous dog breed list I've seen.

I granted you that in my previous post.

I consider monetary damages a pretty good proxy for physical damages.

I don't. Because costs vary widely and settlement values range significantly based on any number of human factors. Closer to this would be the evidence that Sensei provided regarding dog bites and serious ones.

There is zero, zero dispute from reputable trainers and landlords that pitbulls are the most problematic breed today.

That is a different statement than you made before. To clarify, I take umbrage with your statement about "zero scientific dispute". If you want to amend your statement to reflect some other cross-section of opinion, that's fine. Since you're new here - I'm perfectly willing to let this go.

Please do remember, here on P-F you're going to find a lot of folks who not only are supremely well read, but have excellent working vocabularies and read what you write and interpret it as so.

If you meant something else that's fine. But let's not backpedal and try to deflect, we're all perfectly fine to go, "Hey, whoa, I misspoke back there."

Care to tell the class what Mendelian traits were desired in the terrier group?

They were bred to work solo (they are less sociable)
They were bred to seek out ground rodents (fantastic/strong diggers as well as being very tenacious)
They were bred to kill ferociously (trademark terrier flesh ripping neck oscillation)

And how about the bully breeds? They were bred to bait bulls. Yes, as in Toro Toro... As such, they are not intimidated by size disparity and they respond counterintuitively to fear/aggression.

There are A LOT of terriers and for instance Dachshunds were bred to hunt badgers, often solo. Point being you can't focus on just the Mendelian traits of the parental group(s) (besides the fact that crosses reduce the presence of those traits...not increases them). Also, let us remember that "Pitbull" is a very loose term encompassing no less than four distinct breeds.

Over the years unscrupulous breeders have bred pitbulls specifically for dogfighting, amping up the strength, agression, and tenacity.

No one is denying that some dogs have been far and away inbred in attempts to produce specific traits.

Coyotesfan97

03-06-2019, 02:34 PM

I PM ‘d LL when the thread was closed.

“Sorry the thread was already closed when I saw your post. That dog would’ve been gone after the first incident if it was me. Actually there wouldn’t be a first incident because I’m not rehoming a Pit Bull.

The only dogs that have seriously gone after my police dogs are Pits. The fact that I haven’t shot one has either been due to the close proximity of other Officers or a belief that shooting a dog would’ve resulted in a compliant suspect getting shot from sympathetic fire from rookie Officers.”

I can think of three incidents at least where I’ve been spinning in a circle keeping my police dog between me and a Pit in the middle of several Officers where I absolutely 100% would’ve shot the dog if I didn’t have to worry about the other cops. Fortunately each time the Pit got Tased and it was run for the hills time.

One time I had an uninvolved lady let her Pit out her back door after hearing the commotion of us dealing with calling a hiding suspect back to us with a bunch of new Officers. The guy was hiding in a carport storage room. Of course it goes after my dog.

One of the other K9 guys had a rifle and he said he didn’t shoot the dog because he thought the suspect would’ve gotten shot by another cop. I had the same thoughts. Again the dog got tased and ran off.

I’ve had plenty of encounters with friendly Pits or indifferent ones. I’m not a Pit hater. I just don’t want to own one.

TGS

03-06-2019, 03:11 PM

Never in your life or in this thread? Because I was making reference to things I've seen posted elsewhere, or I would have quoted the person in my post.

I was mostly referring to this thread, but I've never heard anyone say that in my whole life, including those awful, terrible, "breed apologists". Geez, they're just the scum of the earth, those people....but I've never heard them deny that pitbulls are physically great at fighting.

Sensei

03-06-2019, 04:46 PM

I haven't seen or heard anyone claim such.

Never in your life or in this thread? Because I was making reference to things I've seen posted elsewhere, or I would have quoted the person in my post.

I was mostly referring to this thread, but I've never heard anyone say that in my whole life, including those awful, terrible, "breed apologists". Geez, they're just the scum of the earth, those people....but I've never heard them deny that pitbulls are physically great at fighting.

See post #28 (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?35463-Trouble-brewing&p=853336&viewfull=1#post853336) in this thread that has 5 likes.

NH Shooter

03-06-2019, 05:21 PM

Having worked with a dog rescue organization here in NH (of which only a very tiny percentage of the dogs rescued could be categorized as pit bull mixes), the greatest challenge we face is vetting the adopters and then educating them on responsible dog ownership. Even with mandatory classes before taking the dog, we have about a 5% return rate for various reasons, related to both the dog and the family that adopts it. The majority of those dogs can be re-homed, but some of them cannot.

The most prevalent attitude is that getting a new dog is like going to Best Buy and getting a new big screen. The new big screen is awesome, everyone loves it for a while, but then the novelty wears off. The same is true with the dog adoption, especially when the realization of the amount of work required becomes inescapable. But unlike a big screen, you can't simply turn off the dog and forget about it.

Dogs are lots of work. Raising kids (and keeping them safe) is lots of work. Combining the two more than doubles that work. Dogs must be taught appropriate behavior, but much more importantly, kids must be taught appropriate behavior around dogs and learn to recognize when a dog is not comfortable. This is what we see as the biggest challenge to successful integration into a family with young children.

For anyone with young children and a new dog at home, I highly recommend spending some time on this site - https://www.thefamilydog.com/stop-the-77/

The heartache and pain you might avoid within your own home is well worth the time spent.

Casual Friday

03-06-2019, 05:36 PM

I was mostly referring to this thread, but I've never heard anyone say that in my whole life, including those awful, terrible, "breed apologists". Geez, they're just the scum of the earth, those people....but I've never heard them deny that pitbulls are physically great at fighting.

I'll see if I can dig up the Facebook post from our local page from last summer. It turned into a real slugfest in the comments so it may have been deleted. Cliff notes version, a lady posts about being at the dog park and someone showed up with a pit and let it off leash, which resulted in her dog getting chewed up. Lady who owned the pit happened to be on the FB group as well and chimed in that it was being blown out of proportion, that the other dog was no worse off than hers, and called it aggressive puppy play. The other lady posts pics of the dogs injuries, as well as the back of her Suburban which looked like a crime scene.

See post #28 (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?35463-Trouble-brewing&p=853336&viewfull=1#post853336) in this thread that has 5 likes.

Good catch.

KeithH

03-06-2019, 05:38 PM

Well, fuck it since this thread got kinda weird... What's everyone think about this possible new PF forum knife? Tamara thinks highly of this brand. I'm ordering one of their knives, just not sure which one.

https://www.amazon.com/BESTECH-KNIVES-Swordfish-Linerlock-BTKG03C/dp/B07B2FRXDG/ref=sr_1_10?crid=39TMJWEF752E7&keywords=bestech+knife&qid=1551896086&s=gateway&sprefix=bestech%2Caps%2C131&sr=8-10

35850

I'm a dog lover but if the knife will work on a dog them I'm interested. Dogs are the primary reason I carry weapons.

BehindBlueI's

03-06-2019, 05:44 PM

See post #28 (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?35463-Trouble-brewing&p=853336&viewfull=1#post853336) in this thread that has 5 likes.

What is the basis for this opinion, and what are your qualifications?

Is asking how someone knows something disagreeing with everything in the quoted post? Seems like kind of a reach to me.

Hambo

03-06-2019, 06:00 PM

Well, fuck it since this thread got kinda weird... What's everyone think about this possible new PF forum knife?

My Halloran pikal has enough orange for me.

35858

Sensei

03-06-2019, 08:12 PM

But it does have to do with the breed. Pit bulls are:

1) more prone to violence than the average breed
2) capable of doing more damage than the average breed

That doesn't mean you can't have a good pitbull (or rottweiler or doberman etc), but pitbulls, as a breed, are clearly more dangerous than golden retrievers or beagles. Nature AND nurture are at play here...

Is asking how someone knows something disagreeing with everything in the quoted post? Seems like kind of a reach to me.

Most people don’t need to have the obvious empirically proven to them. Nor do they refer to commonly accepted facts as opinions.

Others need a randomized control trial before accepting that parachutes are a good idea when jumping out of a plane - all while being completely incapable of performing the simplest of Google searches on their own.

A few will play silly internet games by referring to commonly accepted facts as opinions, and then demanding references and credentials in an attempt to distract the conversation.

El Cid

03-06-2019, 08:53 PM

There's no way anyone will convince me that pitbulls are, as a whole, no more volatile and aggressive than just about anything else out there.

I don't have any "qualifications" to say that, and I don't f-ing care. I don't want one ever near me or my family and there will be trouble for whoever doesn't respect that.

I’m really curious about the bolded part of your statement. Since you’ve pretty well established that a Pit would not be in your home or on your property, are you referring to public places? It appears to me you’re implying you’d use violence against anyone with a Pit who goes near your family. I hope I’m wrong. Maybe you were just puffing out your chest with internet bravado. But if you will threaten or harm someone for getting close to you or your family in a place they can legally be... well I’d suggest you find the best criminal defense attorney in your area and put him or her on retainer.

BehindBlueI's

03-06-2019, 09:52 PM

Most people don’t need to have the obvious empirically proven to them. Nor do they refer to commonly accepted facts as opinions.

Others need a randomized control trial before accepting that parachutes are a good idea when jumping out of a plane - all while being completely incapable of performing the simplest of Google searches on their own.

A few will play silly internet games by referring to commonly accepted facts as opinions, and then demanding references and credentials in an attempt to distract the conversation.

If you want to argue with (or about) Rob_S about his standards or proof or posting style, that'sthe subject of several Pvestifus entries, IIRC, and you'll hear nothing from me on the topic. That said, none of this equates to "I find it somewhat strange that people don't believe that a Pitbull is capable of inflicting much more bodily harm than most other breeds" being said in this thread anywhere, which is what was originally the topic of contention.

nycnoob

03-07-2019, 12:41 AM

Thousands sign petition to save dog that chewed off child’s hand (https://nypost.com/2019/03/06/thousands-sign-petition-to-save-dog-that-chewed-off-childs-hand/)

https://nypost.com/2019/03/06/thousands-sign-petition-to-save-dog-that-chewed-off-childs-hand/

More than 110,000 people have signed an online petition (https://www.thepetitionsite.com/542/559/582/save-polar-and-bear/?taf_id=61668887&cid=fb_na&fbclid=IwAR0TFf2eWDVpQ_COpT7uv0OY4Yi3WR2J-CNzA_kppyU9EAKj_dGYT1fjwkg#bbfb=467182730) to save a dog’s life after he bit off a four-year-old child’s hand in Utah.

(https://nypost.com/2019/03/05/4-year-old-boy-playing-with-neighbors-husky-gets-arm-ripped-off/)

The unnamed boy was attacked after sticking his hand — covered in a sock — through his neighbor’s fence when a husky named Bear sunk his teeth into it, thinking it was a toy.

Bear tore the child’s hand off, presumably ingesting the appendage.

10mmfanboy

03-07-2019, 12:44 AM

Just because it's a pit doesn't make it a bad dog. I have seen this very same thing with all breeds of dogs. Powerful breeds need more training and exercise and discipline than other breeds. All to often when I hear of a pit attack its usually a dog that is chained up or stuck indoors all day. They need tons of exercise!

I also know exactly the kind of person that makes excuses for their dogs behavior, as if it is a human child. If you can't be the alpha and have the time and dedication it takes to train working breed dogs then find another more lazy breed of dog.

I have had 3 pits and 2 AB and none of them ever attacked anyone or snipped or bitten anyone, and all of them really enjoyed playing with children.

At the end of the day all domestic dogs are 99% wolf, there are always tell tale signs I've seen when a dog shows aggression. Most ppl are just not tuned into seeing the signs or think all animals, even apex predators are their best friends in the world and surely would never eat them.

Sensei

03-07-2019, 12:52 AM

If you want to argue with (or about) Rob_S about his standards or proof or posting style, that'sthe subject of several Pvestifus entries, IIRC, and you'll hear nothing from me on the topic. That said, none of this equates to "I find it somewhat strange that people don't believe that a Pitbull is capable of inflicting much more bodily harm than most other breeds" being said in this thread anywhere, which is what was originally the topic of contention.

I understood the topic of contention to be a perceived belief, not an expressed statement or quote. That perceived belief seemed pretty reasonable given the silly questions of fact, demands for evidence, and requests for qualifications, all of which came across to me as nothing more than weak attempts to give (im)plausible deniability to likeminded fact deniers.

Given our disagreements in the past, I completely understand if you perceive the topic of contention in a different light. Once again, it’s the internet.

fixer

03-07-2019, 06:57 AM

I've had some fantastic experiences with Pitts but also some frightful ones. Same with a GSD. I've had more negative interactions with Pitts simply because their population where I live is about triple that of GSDs.

For example...just last week I happened upon a pack of wild and feral dogs at a Hobbs gas plant I was working at. One of the dogs was a coyote. Hilariously the pittbull that was amongst them, highly malnourished, ran up to me to the fright of some near by folks. The dog came up, laid down, and wanted a belly rub. The other dogs came close by. I tried to interact but the Brittany Spaniel dog was the apparent leader and snarled at me. lol. so I climbed a near by fan deck until they left out. I found the dogs later as I was leaving in a large open area having a field day killing and eating wild rabbits.

The single worst experience I've had was with a mixed breed that I couldn't even begin to tell what it was. The dog literally came from nowhere and was trying to kill me. It was one of the very few times I drew a pistol in self defense. My biggest lessons learned were 1) a raging dog coming at you and in close quarters is a super hard target 2) the owner's are gonna be a bigger POS than their stupid fucking dog 3) less lethal options don't seem viable when a dog is hell bent on death and mayhem (note the postal worker video I posted earlier) 4) loose dogs that are aggressive and known to be so, are a true public menace that should be dealt with decisively and harshly. Most municipalities (some rare exceptions) simply ticket the owner and try to enforce a leash law.

I've learned that any population of dogs will have some "tail" end outliers that can cause mayhem. I think breed traits are important to pay attention to and respect as more than noise.

DocGKR

03-07-2019, 08:51 AM

HCountyGuy

03-07-2019, 09:14 AM

I’d be curious to know if the higher frequency of pit bull related incidents are due to perhaps their population/more prevalent concentration in urban areas (my small-sample observation).

BehindBlueI's

03-07-2019, 09:22 AM

I’d be curious to know if the higher frequency of pit bull related incidents are due to perhaps their population/more prevalent concentration in urban areas (my small-sample observation).

I don't know why dogs feel that bicycles are crimes against nature, but riding one in the countryside is a good way to get a quick idea of the local dog pupulation. At least in my home county, where chaining or fencing a dog seems to be counter to the culture*, I very rarely interacted with pits. Again, perhaps due to the free range approach to dog ownership, I think other than "mutt" I'd have had a tough time assigning a breed to many of them.

*exceptions for hunting dogs, as they were prime theft targets if left to roam.

blues

03-07-2019, 09:28 AM

I don't know why dogs feel that bicycles are crimes against nature, but riding one in the countryside is a good way to get a quick idea of the local dog pupulation. At least in my home county, where chaining or fencing a dog seems to be counter to the culture*, I very rarely interacted with pits. Again, perhaps due to the free range approach to dog ownership, I think other than "mutt" I'd have had a tough time assigning a breed to many of them.

*exceptions for hunting dogs, as they were prime theft targets if left to roam.

I found that running in rural / farm areas is a sure way of attracting the local mongrels.

Around here, where I'm one of the few who actually walks his dog and doesn't let her roam free during the days, I'm used to coming across unattended dogs on a regular basis. Most are not an issue.

Haven't had to shoot any yet. Have taken a blackthorn walking stick to a few of them over the years. They gave me a wide berth afterward.

Nearly shot a pair of Rotties one time as they charged me and caught me unaware. Fortunately, (mostly for me), the lead dog understood "gun" and put the brakes on a few feet from my pulling the trigger.

BehindBlueI's

03-07-2019, 09:52 AM

I found that running in rural / farm areas is a sure way of attracting the local mongrels.

Around here, where I'm one of the few who actually walks his dog and doesn't let her roam free during the days, I'm used to coming across unattended dogs on a regular basis. Most are not an issue.

Haven't had to shoot any yet. Have taken a blackthorn walking stick to a few of them over the years. They gave me a wide berth afterward.

Nearly shot a pair of Rotties one time as they charged me and caught me unaware. Fortunately, (mostly for me), the lead dog understood "gun" and put the brakes on a few feet from my pulling the trigger.

I tried OC at first, and learned that it was difficult to use from a bike and not very effective. I then tried one of those air horns for boaters. It fits in the water bottle holder, quick and easy to access, no aiming required, and it is quite effective at deterring dogs.

JohnO

03-07-2019, 10:02 AM

I don't know why dogs feel that bicycles are crimes against nature, but riding one in the countryside is a good way to get a quick idea of the local dog pupulation.

Back when I was doing citizen road races and clocking hundreds of miles per week dogs were a novelty. The first time through a new area could lead to a surprise especially if the dog launched with little or no noise. Once I had their number I was ready. The sprint was always fun. I just about looked for it (getting chased) on my rides. Just thinking about those days brings back so many memories. Watching movies like Breaking Away, American Flyers and going down to NYC to watch the criterium stage of the Tour-de-Trump inside Central Park. Greg LeMond & Lance Armstrong (when he was a young pup , pre-cancer) along with all the top guys at the time were there. The race later became the Tour DuPont.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8uP-dxllKQ

Casual Friday

03-07-2019, 10:05 AM

I have a three tiered approach to dealing with dogs that show aggressive behavior. I have a bunch of trails and miles of rural country roads to walk on and dog encounters are quite common.

1. Yell at it. I have a fairly deep voice that carries quite well and that seems to be successful for most dogs who are not real motivated or interested in .

2. If yelling at it doesn't work and it gets within striking distance while still showing aggressive behavior, they get booted underneath the chin. Occasionally dogs will give up the barking and growling and just want to check you out, those avoid the boot but I keep my hand on the strap. I've had to kick dogs on several occasions that got too close.

3. Shoot it. If I put boot leather to the dog and it comes back it's going to get shot. I have no desire to shoot someone's pet, but I have no problem doing so if people can't be bothered to keep their dangerous mutts at home. I've had numerous 1's and 2's encounters, but have never had to shoot one.

I reserve the option to skip step 2 and go right to 3 if it's a Pit, a Rott, Akita, Chow, or any other dog that will likely be unphased by being kicked.

LittleLebowski

03-07-2019, 10:12 AM

I’m really curious about the bolded part of your statement. Since you’ve pretty well established that a Pit would not be in your home or on your property, are you referring to public places? It appears to me you’re implying you’d use violence against anyone with a Pit who goes near your family. I hope I’m wrong. Maybe you were just puffing out your chest with internet bravado. But if you will threaten or harm someone for getting close to you or your family in a place they can legally be... well I’d suggest you find the best criminal defense attorney in your area and put him or her on retainer.

Maybe he means legal trouble, maybe he means verbal confrontation. I don't think we should look for hypothetical, implied threats; we are all on the same side, but you are absolutely free to continue in this vein if you wish.

TGS

03-07-2019, 10:15 AM

In 30 years of practicing at Level I Trauma Centers, the vast majority of patients I've seen who sustained serious dog bites received them from Pit Bulls and Pit Bull mixes. In fact, Pit Bull/Pit Bull mixes were the cause of more of those serious dog bite injuries than all of the other dog breeds combined...

Likewise, while working in an LE capacity, the significant majority of dog bite/dog aggression incidents I was aware of were with Pit Bull/Pit Bull mixes, very distantly followed by Akita, Chow, Rottweiler, GSD, Doberman, Husky.

As always, YMMV.

I'm not surprised, but when reading things like this we have to remember that correlation does not equal causation, all that.

Irresponsible people buy pits specifically to mistreat them, because they're all scary and shit. Some people even buy them specifically as fighting dogs, whether it be a stud or bait.

They are also extremely prevalent in economically depressed urban areas because of the culture and demographics, as well as being quite possibly the cheapest dog in history.

So, you've got a dog that is overwhelmingly popular in urban areas, bought specifically by shit owners to be scary, almost always mis-treated or purposely abused, possibly even used for fighting.....yeah, no kidding that most of the bites come from Pitts.

We shouldn't take that as evidence that Pitts are inherently evil dogs, or something. If the Belgian Mal was the ghetto dog du jour, you'd see the same results.....but, that'll likely never happen because most people in economically depressed neighborhoods can't afford a Mal, and it simply doesn't have the cultural significance in their demographics that Pits do. You can be sure as shit that nobody is putting a Malinois into a fighting ring unless it was a free dog or simply as a way of flaunting their wealth, which is why you typically don't see them. Pits, however, are similarly high drive dogs that are very strong and great fighters like a Mal, but free and probably the most prevalent commodity in ghettos next to bail bonds and liqour shops.

whomever

03-07-2019, 10:16 AM

"I don't know why dogs feel that bicycles are crimes against nature, but riding one in the countryside is a good way to get a quick idea of the local dog pupulation."

+1 'pupulation'

Anecdote alert: Eons ago I ran cross country in high school. It was a rural county seat type of town. One of our practice loops ran for 7 or 8 miles out through the county. At about the 4 mile mark you'd turn a corner past a farmhouse. Inevitably a big german shepherd would come off the farmhouse porch after you. The house was set way back from the road - maybe 400 yds, and the frontage was only 100 yards or so, and the dog would dutifully stop as soon as you were off 'his' frontage. You'd slow just a bit before turning the corner to get ready, then turn the corner and sprint for all you were worth and just beat the dog to the far boundary. This was before pepper spray was a thing.

One day I must have been a little off, or the dog was having an up day, because it became clear I wasn't going to make it. I'm frantically sprinting in terror, realizing I'm just not going to make it. 20 feet from the boundary his jaws clamped down on my calf ... it turned out he was completely toothless. The XC team had been sprinting by that house for years. I wonder how many of those years were after his teeth were gone.

RevolverRob

03-07-2019, 10:30 AM

Pits, however, are similarly high drive dogs that are very strong and great fighters like a Mal, but free and probably the most prevalent commodity in ghettos next to bail bonds and liqour shops.

And weed. Don't forget weed.

I actually think you're spot on here, that there is a very strong correlation between the scum that frequently own pit bulls and those dogs that bite.

I'm certainly not a breed apologist, I think there is first a very strong correlation and second a relatively weak causation. Big(ger) dogs with bigger muscles and bigger teeth and bigger jaws, are going to cause more damage to soft fleshy things than smaller dogs. So in that sense, bigger pitbulls are going to be capable of more damage than a smaller breed. But I suspect that a big portion of the damage done by Pits is because Pits are just the "ghetto dog dujour" as you intimated.

Let me also be clear, anyone that breeds and fights dogs for sport is a scumbag that should be euthanized with their dogs. If you want to participate in sport fighting, climb in the ring and fight a person your own size. If you want to bet on it or watch it, go watch a fight. Plenty of adult humans, who are cognizant and can consent, are willing to fight it out for your entertainment.

JRB

03-07-2019, 10:57 AM

...

The unnamed boy was attacked after sticking his hand — covered in a sock — through his neighbor’s fence when a husky named Bear sunk his teeth into it, thinking it was a toy.

Bear tore the child’s hand off, presumably ingesting the appendage.

People who assume all dogs are automatically friendly and harmless are no less stupid than people who muzzle themselves or other people and 'it's okay because it's unloaded'. It's damn sad that a little kid had to pay that kind of price for his parent's stupidity.

People who assume certain breeds are more/less dangerous by any metric other than physical size are as ignorant as anti-gun types that think an AR-15 is evil but a Mini-14 is fine.
Each dog is a population of one and should be treated as such until it's found worthy of trust, especially around children. There are too many mixes out there and irresponsibly bred asshole dogs raised by asshole people to make anything resembling a sound judgement on apparent breed alone.

I've been bitten twice in my younger years - one was a black lab, the other was a plott hound. The lesson learned there was asshole people tend to raise asshole dogs regardless of the breed.
Many assholes are attracted to tough, aggressive looking asshole dogs and pits fit the bill these days. That means there's a lot of pit bull-mix sorts of dogs out there and some are bad and some are good.

If we flipped that perception overnight to demonize Rotties or GSD's instead of pits we'd see the assholes and shitbirds want irresponsibly bred poorly mannered shitty asshole mixes of Rotties and GSD's instead of pits.

Just my $0.02.

RevolverRob

03-07-2019, 11:46 AM

People who assume certain breeds are more/less dangerous by any metric other than physical size

I add one more metric - age. Older dogs tend to be assholes. I get it, age makes most folks cranky and dogs are no exception, because they tend to hurt and cannot communicate and bitch to achieve catharsis like humans can.

So for me it's Size, Age, Owner, Breed as my assessment, in that order, of a dog.

And the best predictors of whether are not a dog will be an asshole are size, age, and the owner. Examples like this:

Small + Old + Old = High percentage chance of asshole dog.

Big + Young + Young Asshole = High Percentage Chance.

Medium + Middle Aged + Middle Aged = 50/50

In my experience, old small dogs, with old owners are the nastiest of the lot.

Alpha Sierra

03-07-2019, 01:48 PM

I’m really curious about the bolded part of your statement. Since you’ve pretty well established that a Pit would not be in your home or on your property, are you referring to public places? It appears to me you’re implying you’d use violence against anyone with a Pit who goes near your family. I hope I’m wrong. Maybe you were just puffing out your chest with internet bravado. But if you will threaten or harm someone for getting close to you or your family in a place they can legally be... well I’d suggest you find the best criminal defense attorney in your area and put him or her on retainer.

A. I am referring to public places where I, too, have the right to be without being threatened.
B. I understand the self defense laws (statutory and judicial precedent) of where I live pretty well.
C. I'm not going to give examples

TGS

03-07-2019, 01:54 PM

I’m really curious about the bolded part of your statement. Since you’ve pretty well established that a Pit would not be in your home or on your property, are you referring to public places? It appears to me you’re implying you’d use violence against anyone with a Pit who goes near your family. I hope I’m wrong. Maybe you were just puffing out your chest with internet bravado. But if you will threaten or harm someone for getting close to you or your family in a place they can legally be... well I’d suggest you find the best criminal defense attorney in your area and put him or her on retainer.

A. I am referring to public places where I, too, have the right to be without being threatened.
B. I understand the self defense laws (statutory and judicial precedent) of where I live pretty well.
C. I'm not going to give examples

It's definitely the type of statement on the internet that investigators and lawyers salivate over, and people often wish they hadn't made.

El Cid

03-07-2019, 02:08 PM

A. I am referring to public places where I, too, have the right to be without being threatened.
B. I understand the self defense laws (statutory and judicial precedent) of where I live pretty well.
C. I'm not going to give examples

Okay. I was just curious because your post made it appear to me that you were going to do something to anyone who came near you with a Pit Bull. I was concerned you didn’t understand that the mere presence of a certain breed of dog is hardly enough for you to take action against the dog or owner. The best course of action for you would be to leave. If the dog isn’t being aggressive, your fear of it (no matter how legitimate you believe it to be) doesn’t justify making threats or using force against it or the owner.

Maybe he means legal trouble, maybe he means verbal confrontation. I don't think we should look for hypothetical, implied threats; we are all on the same side, but you are absolutely free to continue in this vein if you wish.

I’m confused. What legal trouble would there be for a person legally walking their dog in a public place? And if Alpha Sierra wants to initiate a verbal confrontation against someone who isn’t breaking the law… he becomes the aggressor in the eyes of the law. I’m not attacking him or anyone else in the thread. I just wanted to see if my interpretation of his post was accurate. He’s free to keep digging a hole or walk it back.

GuanoLoco

03-07-2019, 02:30 PM

Gray01

03-07-2019, 02:34 PM

I tried OC at first, and learned that it was difficult to use from a bike and not very effective.

Probably not practical from a bicycle, but we found dry chemical fire extinguishers shot straight at the face of very aggressive (think warrant service on meth cooks) pits performed very well. Never had one continue in the charge with both visual and olfactory senses shut down hard. We always employed it with lethal cover immediately available, but never had to resort to it with a good blast from the FX.

RevolverRob

03-07-2019, 02:54 PM

I'll throw this out. The dog park is one of the few places where I am always on high alert.

It's not just because there are occasionally (maybe even often) dogs that are poorly socialized and aggressive. It's because dog owners are often poorly socialized and unnecessarily aggressive, often passively, sometimes actively. Some of the passive-aggressive "adult" behaviors I've seen in dog parks is the kind of stuff that would have gotten someone an educational beat-down where I grew up. Here, it's just another day at the park (literally).

A lot of owners at the park are self-absorbed either literally or figuratively or both. They often refuse to discipline their dogs, sometimes because they are oblivious or sometimes because they don't give a shit if someone else's dog gets hurt. If you actively grab another person's dog to get it off of your dog or another dog, you're almost guaranteed to get into a beef with someone. If you ask someone to pick up their dog's shit, you're almost guaranteed to get into a beef with someone. Most often they'll get passive-aggressively pissy and walk away. Once in awhile, you'll get someone who threatens to call the cops (:rolleyes:). Once about five months ago I saw a woman threaten to call her boyfriend to come kick a man's ass. The man merely asked her to pick up the giant pile of shit her precious Husky had dropped ten minutes before.

And what I've learned, at least in the city, is that walking your dog is only marginally less likely to have you meet a passive aggressive asshole than at the dog park. Again, lots of poorly socialized, poorly trained, poorly contained, dogs out there. If you're working with a dog on a lead in training, you sometimes have to be really brusque and ask someone to please not walk their dogs too close to yours or otherwise distract during the training (to be clear, I try to do my training at home or in the parking lot attached to my building, but not everyone has physical space to train, beyond the sidewalk outside). Most dog owners are pretty polite and most folks will pause, judge the owner and dog in advance and decide to turn or not, giving everyone a clear path to work. Some folks don't give a shit. Those folks are the ones whose dogs and attitudes are usually dangerous.

In short, I can easily envision instances where I might tell someone to get themselves and or their dog the fuck out of the space I am occupying. I view it as an extension of MUC. The fact that a dog (especially larger dogs) can inflict considerable damage on people - does, I think, ratchet up the potential for a more dangerous encounter. It is, of course, contextually, dependent, just like it would be if you were walking down the street and saw a guy carrying a 3' long piece of pipe. Is he a plumber? Home improvement guy? Or is he a crazy dude looking to cave in your skull?

I know we often do, but I'm not sure we should view dogs as less of a threat. A 75-pound dog that is dragging its owner across the street towards you and your small child is probably not any less of a threat to you than a dude with a pipe. Which - if you come back to it, is sort of the point of the OP. Too often we let our biases, be they breed based, organism based, race based, gender based, etc. dictate our response. An animal with big teeth and the right motivation can fuck up your day - be it dog, shark, or human. It's important to remember that shit.

GuanoLoco

03-07-2019, 03:10 PM

"Socialization" of teaching your dog to ignore or respect other people and dogs is valuable. There is also a non-zero chance of encountering and out of control human(s), dog(s) and/or dog owner(s). I have experienced this before. I don't relish having to be the person who has to handle the FUT that someone or something sucked me in to, and that they are utterly incapable of dealing with.

This is why I prefer to walk my dog(s) on rarely-used trails that I personally cut, in the woods, at night, in the cold/rain/heat/whatever, with a 20' lead in one hand and a quality 6' bo staff in the other. The rubber cane tipped end of the bo staff, extending well past the end of the choked-up lead, is a useful tool when poked into something's face. Especially when that something is about to get it's ass handed to it by a much larger and more capable dog and/or human.

The only thing better than an effective MUC is no Encounter to Manage at all.

I prefer to take my chances with the deer, raccoons, possums, outdoor pet cats/bobcats, coyotes, chupacabras and all manner of other woodland creatures of the night.

RevolverRob

03-07-2019, 03:28 PM

The only thing better than an effective MUC is no Encounter to Manage at all.

I prefer to take my chances with the deer, raccoons, possums, outdoor pet cats/bobcats, coyotes, chupacabras and all manner of other woodland creatures of the night.

That would be my preference. Alas, that's a hard thing to do on the south side of Chicago.

I walk my dog on a 7' extra strength lead with a stout harness and the ability to loop it over my torso to free up my hands, using a climbing-rated carabiner. I've got it pretty well down to loop over my torso and lock, I even sometimes turn around taking up leash slack around my waist to keep the dog very tight as necessary, but allowing me fully mobile two hands. It's also tough to walk down the street here with a 6' bo staff. But OC spray, a bright flashlight, and concealed weapons permitted by law, can help even things out.

I'm told, that you can take one of the Cold Steel Sjamboks (the plastic ones) and if you warm them up slightly (like by the fire place), they are pretty easy to slide up the sleeve of a jacket and across the shoulders, down into the other sleeve, for concealment purposes. The only problem is that it can make it hard to bend the elbow on the side where the handle is contained. But I've never tried that myself. I would think though, that even a short sjambok would be an excellent anti-personnel and anti-dog tool.

LorenzoS

03-07-2019, 03:44 PM

I want a dog. Y'all keep talking me out of one. :(

We spend a lot of time here talking about dumbass gun owners. That doesn't mean you should not own a gun, but that being responsible is necessary. Same with owning a dog, having a kid, driving a car, etc.

I am sure there is a good dog out there who needs a good owner. Get a dog.

Joe in PNG

03-07-2019, 03:45 PM

I want a dog. Y'all keep talking me out of one. :(

Get a pug. They're lazy and easy.

LittleLebowski

03-07-2019, 04:50 PM

I want a dog. Y'all keep talking me out of one. :(

Recall Maggie?

mtnbkr

03-07-2019, 04:59 PM

Get a pug. They're lazy and easy.

My parents had a pug, great dog. We have a Havanese. I like them better. Just as family-oriented and friendly, but without the shedding, propensity toward obesity, and snoring. Ours is such a big baby he'll let you hold him on his back in your arms like an actual baby. He loves nothing more than to hang out with his family and will spend the day right next to my desk when I'm working from home.

He's an absolutely useless animal, but a fantastic companion.

Chris

the Schwartz

03-07-2019, 04:59 PM

Get a pug. They're lazy and easy.

Sounds like a girl I dated long ago before I knew better.

JohnO

03-07-2019, 05:01 PM

I'll throw this out. The dog park is one of the few places where I am always on high alert.

I have adopted the recommendation in this video. My dogs have never been in a dog park however they have trained outside the fence.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHZYp2lCNjw

Wondering Beard

03-07-2019, 06:18 PM

The more I read this thread that happier I am that we have a cat.

RevolverRob

03-07-2019, 06:27 PM

I am sure there is a good dog out there who needs a good owner. Get a dog.

Could not agree more with this.

I put off having a dog, because it was too much effort, a pain in the ass, people are assholes, etc. Finally, my dad got sick and I realized life is too short to put something off that I had wanted for a dozen years, to have a dog. And walking him when it's -21º outside is a pain in the ass...and people are assholes. But the dog isn't, he's a great dog and I think I'm a pretty good owner. When I got him, he was afraid of the wind. Seriously. Now...he sticks his whole head out the car window and relishes in it. He snuggles up against my feet at night and won't let me get out of bed if I'm too tired, he'll roll over half on top of me and start snoring. Do you know how hard it is to get out bed when you have a 55-pound, self-warming, teddy bear?

If someone offered me a trade, "Trade me the dog and you'll NEVER have to encounter an asshole again in your life." I'd tell them to go fuck themselves. I'm keeping the dog. Yea, I know he's only going to live another 10 or 12 years probably. I plan to enjoy them all.

There are lots of good dogs out there that need a good owner. All it takes to be a good owner is some time, dedication, and patience. You must have all of that Tom_Jones, because you put up with all of our puerile stupidity, and you've even got a kid (though I'm guessing he's probably less of a handful than some members here are...).

HCountyGuy

03-07-2019, 07:03 PM

I'll throw this out. The dog park is one of the few places where I am always on high alert.

Ditto.

We have a smaller/less frequented dog park in our area we frequent to wear out our dog.

This past weekend we were there playing and a woman with a pit puppy and a beautiful Akita shows up and comes to our side (there’s two sides, one is huge and the other is fairly small but still had plenty of room to run). Anyway my dog being the hyper, social thing he is decides to check them out after a bit. The puppy was the most playful thing and looooved fetching sticks the girl would throw. The Akita wanted nothing but to be left alone. My dog ran towards the Akita who snapped and snarled as a “back off” gesture, which my dog understood. I didn’t mind it as I know some dogs couldn’t care less. The girl was dismissive of it, “Oh that’s just how she plays with other dogs”.

Yeah, okay.

We left not long after.

GuanoLoco

03-07-2019, 07:07 PM

Do yourself a favor and commit to learn something about dogs and training before you get one.

You both will have a vastly better experience as a result.

GuanoLoco

03-07-2019, 07:13 PM

I'm told, that you can take one of the Cold Steel Sjamboks (the plastic ones) and if you warm them up slightly (like by the fire place), they are pretty easy to slide up the sleeve of a jacket and across the shoulders, down into the other sleeve, for concealment purposes. The only problem is that it can make it hard to bend the elbow on the side where the handle is contained. But I've never tried that myself. I would think though, that even a short sjambok would be an excellent anti-personnel and anti-dog tool.

I have a couple around here somewhere. They *may* be acceptably concealable using the technique you mention but they are way too flexible to be any use when walking or doing anything other than slashing.

Duelist

03-07-2019, 07:24 PM

I want a dog. Y'all keep talking me out of one. :(

There are lots of dogs that are worth having. I would not want to have lived my life without the one I have now.

The worst part of having one is knowing that the odds are strong that you will outlive it, and you may have to be the one to kill it at some point. “Mercifully euthanize/put to sleep” is a nicer way to put it, but when I got my Brittany, it was something I made myself realize and prepare for: she could get hurt in the mountains, and I may have to do the deed. Or, as has now begun, she will get old and her body will start to fail, and unless she goes out on her own, in the next few weeks, I’m going to have to take a day off and take her for her last ride to the vet.

Other than that, and sometimes the hassle of pet sitting, I love having a dog, and will get another.

the Schwartz

03-07-2019, 07:40 PM

The more I read this thread that happier I am that we have a cat.

Copy that. I've had several cats throughout my life and cannot imagine a better companion than any of them. Having cats around is like living with demented elves; always doing crazy stuff and keeping me entertained.

They are truly wonderful animals and prove that pets―cat or dog―make life worth living.

Gray01

03-07-2019, 07:46 PM

I want a dog. Y'all keep talking me out of one. :(

Don't do it. Resist. Stay Strong.

My kids (who are in their 40's and 50's) like dogs. Just like the talk about certain firearms having more Je ne sais quoi as opposed to other more utilitarian models, I call all of it sentimental hogwash.

BehindBlueI's

03-07-2019, 08:05 PM

I want a dog. Y'all keep talking me out of one. :(

My wife and I do as well, but we travel so much and don't have anyone we could rely on to watch a dog while we're gone.:(

Gray01

03-07-2019, 09:42 PM

My wife and I do as well, but we travel so much and don't have anyone we could rely on to watch a dog while we're gone.:(

What, you mean you don't want to have Little Fluffy running from headrest to dashboard, and then shaking its head and splashing drool and dog-snot all over your face? How selfish of you.:rolleyes:

BehindBlueI's

03-07-2019, 09:50 PM

What, you mean you don't want to have Little Fluffy running from headrest to dashboard, and then shaking its head and splashing drool and dog-snot all over your face? How selfish of you.:rolleyes:

I wasn't even really thinking about in the car, but it's got to be tougher to get a hotel. And what do you do with Fluffy while you are non-pet friendly attractions? Plus excursions abroad. Just seems like a bad plan at the moment.

RevolverRob

03-07-2019, 10:43 PM

I wasn't even really thinking about in the car, but it's got to be tougher to get a hotel. And what do you do with Fluffy while you are non-pet friendly attractions? Plus excursions abroad. Just seems like a bad plan at the moment.

Drury Inn, Motel 6, and La Quinta are all pet friendly.

Non-pet friendly attractions are def a no go.

Board the dog when abroad (if less than 10-days). We use Petsmart locally, because our dog goes there for “doggie daycare” regularly and because when board we can book him play time every day to make sure he is exercised and happy. They even offer live video chats with your dog (I shit you not) during boarding.

Hardest part of traveling with a dog, when you don’t want to leave them in the car, is food. You’re basically relegated to fast food or packing your own. And fast food sucks.

Wife and I usually split the 15 hour drive to Texas into two days. By lunch on the first day, I’m fucking sick of McDonalds or whatever. Between Chicago and Dallas is a lot of nothing. I’ve never been much for packing food on trips, but we started doing it, just to not have to eat garbage.

UNM1136

03-08-2019, 06:03 AM

I have experience with dogs like Goldens and Labs - 'benign' dogs that aren't without their own issues and challenges.
I've invested a fair amount of time in learning how to train dogs, and have had some success attempting to put that knowledge into effect.
I've owned a dominant large breed dog, a male Presa Canario, for 10 years, cradle to grave, and know full well their capabilities and challenges.
I've 'fixed' a rescue bulldog, who came to me with some serious issues, and who died of natural causes one of the sweetest dogs of any breed that I have ever known.
I currently own an 80 lb 3.5YO mix-breed rescue that I am still learning and working on. He has the potential to be a great dog, but still needs work.
I've seen a lot of untrained, ill-behaved, nasty, bitey little dogs across many breeds that don't make the list - I'm sure the sheer number of bites is far more, but the damage is less. The 'apologists' for these dogs are in my experience, worse than the large breed dogs as a rule.

Most people IMHO have no business owning dogs at all, much less interacting with strange dogs. Hominid mindsets, body language and behaviors are often poorly aligned with Canid mindsets and behaviors. Hominids (humans, especially young humans) routinely do things that they incorrectly assume are benign and which canids genetically interpret as direct threats (direct eye contact, smiling/baring teeth, getting in a dog's face, hugging, grabbing resources, intruding into territory, moving in too quickly on owners, etc.). Canid responds like canids can reasonably be expected to do, then hominids blame canids for a situation that they orchestrated, knowingly or not.

I read the posts in this thread and for most of them I just shake my head and have literally no interest in even attempting to respond.

I suggest goldfish and hamsters as more appropriate pets for most.

That is all.

These threads seem to generate a lot of talking past one another, rather than with one another. Guano makes some very, very good points here. I stayed out for a while, because of the whole arguing on the internet thing.

Everyone seems to think that since they taught a dog to sit when they were a kid, and that dog never hurt anyone, that they will be a good dog trainer. Most people are far more impressed with their abilities as dog trainers than their dogs are. Once again, many people don't know what they don't know.

The video of Michael Ellis working his ring dog under distraction feet from the dog park fence is a worthwhile goal. Either your dog focuses, and behaves, or it doesn't. It is reliable, or it isn't. It takes a lot of work.

I have had great experiences with pits. I live in a town where backyard breeding and animal neglect seem to be competitive sports. While I am all for rescuing dogs, the recent scandals our shelter has with hiding histories of dangerous dogs and adopting them out to maintain a "no kill" status has given me paws...er pause. The dog's background can be a huge issue, and you may or may not be equipped to deal with it. I like puppies, too.

Sorry for the vid quality, but here is a nice pit who is earning his BH. He comes from a French Ring background, where biting a decoy, hard, anywhere is required. With some modifications to take that into account, he is making the transition to IPO:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQnBQRGr30I&feature=youtu.be

If you look through the photos here you will see a bunch of pits, a mastiff, and others:

https://www.facebook.com/NMHundesport/

All of them do bitework,where obedience and control are very, very important.

You might even see me and my knucklehead.

pat

11B10

03-08-2019, 06:08 AM

Thanks, Tom.

JHC

03-08-2019, 06:51 AM

I want a dog. Y'all keep talking me out of one. :(

Ah nothing to it. Rescue a senior companion dog.

This is our 5th boxer rescue, Brutus. They've all been a pure delight to folks of all ages. A good rescue org will have a good enough bio on the dog to get a good idea of the personality in advance.

35903

35904

Hambo

03-08-2019, 09:04 AM

I want a dog. Y'all keep talking me out of one. :(

Because P-F members can discuss anything to death.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1EyN9xTK94

BehindBlueI's

03-08-2019, 09:34 AM

Drury Inn, Motel 6, and La Quinta are all pet friendly.

Non-pet friendly attractions are def a no go.

Board the dog when abroad (if less than 10-days). We use Petsmart locally, because our dog goes there for “doggie daycare” regularly and because when board we can book him play time every day to make sure he is exercised and happy. They even offer live video chats with your dog (I shit you not) during boarding.

Hardest part of traveling with a dog, when you don’t want to leave them in the car, is food. You’re basically relegated to fast food or packing your own. And fast food sucks.

Wife and I usually split the 15 hour drive to Texas into two days. By lunch on the first day, I’m fucking sick of McDonalds or whatever. Between Chicago and Dallas is a lot of nothing. I’ve never been much for packing food on trips, but we started doing it, just to not have to eat garbage.

Literally the only way I would travel with a dog would be with a motor-home, and I'm extremely unlikely to buy a motor-home.

blues

03-08-2019, 09:59 AM

Literally the only way I would travel with a dog would be with a motor-home, and I'm extremely unlikely to buy a motor-home.

I don't travel with my dog now, and haven't done so in the past. Dogs are a huge commitment, and I travel a lot less, (these days), as a result of that commitment. And when I do travel, I make sure they are boarded with someone I have vetted, who runs a small family operation out of their home and is committed to the welfare of the animals in their charge.

My wife and I suffer separation anxiety more than the dogs do. YMMV in that regard. Sometimes I wish mine, (ours), would. It would make things a lot easier.

GuanoLoco

03-08-2019, 10:08 AM

90 lbs of the most loving, sweetest Bully ever - great with people, other dogs, kids. Still had some prey drive. Was prone to attempting to adopt and politely kidnap small dogs. Yes, she had issues when I got her as a rescue, but she cleaned up real nice.

RIP sweet girl.

My points:

(1) Dogs are individuals. SOME of their characteristics are malleable, others, not so much.
(2) How the owner trains and handles them matters - a lot.
(3) Not all dogs, owners and environments are compatible.

Chance

03-08-2019, 10:13 AM

My wife and I do as well, but we travel so much and don't have anyone we could rely on to watch a dog while we're gone.:(

Sites like Rover.com make it really easy to find pet sitters. My sister does that periodically for a few extra bucks. She likes it.

I want a dog. Y'all keep talking me out of one. :(

Get a cat. They're like dogs, but they poop in predictable places and hate you.

JHC

03-08-2019, 10:59 AM

I don't travel with my dog now, and haven't done so in the past. Dogs are a huge commitment, and I travel a lot less, (these days), as a result of that commitment. And when I do travel, I make sure they are boarded with someone I have vetted, who runs a small family operation out of their home and is committed to the welfare of the animals in their charge.

My wife and I suffer separation anxiety more than the dogs do. YMMV in that regard. Sometimes I wish mine, (ours), would. It would make things a lot easier.

We board with a great vet too. We don't travel a lot. This new one, Brutus is the first one that just loves driving around for any reason so now at long last I have this runnin' buddy who thrills to tag along. He's smart enough to have mapped out the roads around the little town adjacent and recognizes when I am head to or turning away from the dag gum Hardee's and communicates it. So we hit the Hardee's and the girl at the drive up window slips him a piece of Canadian bacon or some such.

But they are a commitment. Rescuing a series of old dogs means you have a lot of heartbreak too but that's life.

blues

03-08-2019, 11:07 AM

We board with a great vet too. We don't travel a lot. This new one, Brutus is the first one that just loves driving around for any reason so now at long last I have this runnin' buddy who thrills to tag along. He's smart enough to have mapped out the roads around the little town adjacent and recognizes when I am head to or turning away from the dag gum Hardee's and communicates it. So we hit the Hardee's and the girl at the drive up window slips in a piece of Canadian bacon or some such.

But they are a commitment. Rescuing a series of old dogs means you have a lot of heartbreak too but that's life.

Our Weim used to run down the stairs to get in the vehicle and go for a ride but he seemed to enjoy it less and less as the years went by. I don't know if he started to get car sick or something else, but he'd start whining a bit.

On the other hand, Skyler, our Boxer / Staffie mix, loves to run down to the 4Runner and go for a ride. She has the back seat to herself.
We've not taken her on longer outings than a couple hours, though.

Funny how they all know where the vet's office is...you can tell by the reaction when you drive near or by. They hate going there.

JTQ

03-08-2019, 11:41 AM

Funny how they all know where the vet's office is...you can tell by the reaction when you drive near or by. They hate going there.
My dog absolutely loved going to the vet. Our vet was within walking distance and we often just walked in for a visit on our daily walk. I'd generally not tell him we were going to the vet, since his excitement (positive) was almost too much to handle. I'm sure he loved the smells and visiting with all the other creatures.

However, he didn't like staying. We normally boarded him with the vet, and he always gave me the crushed look when I dropped him off. He wouldn't eat well while there (I always brought his food when I dropped him off), and I got the feeling he had a "shy bowel" and it seemed like he wouldn't poop while there. It always took two to three days to get him regular after a stay at the vet.

blues

03-08-2019, 12:03 PM

My dog absolutely loved going to the vet. Our vet was within walking distance and we often just walked in for a visit on our daily walk. I'd generally not tell him we were going to the vet, since his excitement (positive) was almost too much to handle. I'm sure he loved the smells and visiting with all the other creatures.

However, he didn't like staying. We normally boarded him with the vet, and he always gave me the crushed look when I dropped him off. He wouldn't eat well while there (I always brought his food when I dropped him off), and I got the feeling he had a "shy bowel" and it seemed like he wouldn't poop while there. It always took two to three days to get him regular after a stay at the vet.

The two dogs we've rescued since living here both have not enjoyed going to the vets office, not because of any trauma experienced by them there. I think it's because they smell "fear" or something like that when they are in there. Hard to put my finger on it.

Both are / were fine once they're in the examining room...but not in the waiting area.

I guess I can't blame 'em. I hate going to the doctor too.

Caballoflaco

03-08-2019, 12:35 PM

The two dogs we've rescued since living here both have not enjoyed going to the vets office, not because of any trauma experienced by them there. I think it's because they smell "fear" or something like that when they are in there. Hard to put my finger on it.

Both are / were fine once they're in the examining room...but not in the waiting area.

I guess I can't blame 'em. I hate going to the doctor too.

I think them reacting to stress pharamones is definitely a thing.

I was recently talking to a friend who’s wife is a vet and he told me that they had recently started using a cleaner in the exam rooms that’s marketed as neutralizing stress pharamones. He said his wife and the patients owners noticed a marked difference in how relaxed the animals are now compared to their old disinfectant.

UNM1136

03-08-2019, 01:50 PM

There's a PF members/mods joke in there somewhere...

Did a mod just shit in here?

pat

JclInAtx

03-08-2019, 02:35 PM

Get a pug. They're lazy and easy.

I like pugs and french bulldogs but our vet recommended against them in Austin. According to her dogs with flat faces can't cool themselves as efficiently as dogs with a longer snout, so they're not a good fit for a hot climate like Austin. Though Albuquerque is cooler and less humid than Austin so maybe it's not an issue. I also see them plenty around here so ?

I'm not a fan of the heat either so I try and walk before/just after sunrise and after dark in the summer. My dog used to run with me, but not anymore, and I can't get myself up early enough to get my run and her walk in before sunrise.

LL - Seems like that family is going to learn a tough lesson. Maybe your wife can recommend a good trainer in the area who can assess the situation (and that they might listen to.) When we found a good trainer she came out and visited our house to interview us and our dog before deciding what training would be best for us. I'd hope something like that might help them avoid the disaster that seems unavoidable given their current path.