Shtgun Strategery - Running the Pump

[Tensaw]

I am probably doing it wrong so I am looking for some pro tips here.

In my house, I keep a number of firearms "ready to go." Fighting pistols are loaded, chambered, and holstered. Long guns (to include an AR, and two pump guns) are kept in Cruiser Ready status. I have a safe that generally contains the long guns when I leave, and that gets opened when I am home. I place a pump gun near the bed (holstered pistol on the nightstand) which is the designated "bump in the night" gun. But to get it into action, I need to run the pump. I'm not sure how I feel about this.

Let's put it like this. If I run the pump hard enough to reliably chamber a round and lock the action, anyone awake in the house is going to hear that. Now, as advertised, this may be a good thing, but I am actually of the opinion that maintaining stealth would be better.

So, my question is, do I abandon Cruiser Ready with the long guns to obtain stealth, or keep Cruiser Ready and just roll with it? I suppose splitting the baby on this would be, to leave the shotgun in CR and only chamber a round if/as the gun is being mounted for a shot. Understanding that this can be done pretty seamlessly and with no time added, it nonetheless seems like a pretty bad idea to go war without a round chambered.
---------------
Also, with respect to slings on HD long guns (specifically a pump shotgun), SME's seem to differ on this. Some (Tom Givens?) say ditch the sling to eliminate the snag hazard, others seem to maintain that every long gun must have a sling. Currently, I am in the "no sling" camp, but I am willing to be convinced otherwise. Again the context here is inside the confines of my residence/on my property around my residence. You may assume that a pistol is along for the ride, but that the SG will not be abandoned unless it is non-functional due to running dry or a malfunction.

[Wake27]

Is there a reason you don’t keep it chambered, like you’re worried about your kids or something?


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[Tensaw]

The safety mechanism on the shotguns only locks the trigger, but does not block the firing pin. Outside the safe, the shotguns are propped up in a corner or against a wall. If they got knocked over, they could fire via inertia to the firing pin. Too, when stored in the (crowded) safe, they are muzzle up. I very much dislike the notion of pulling the muzzle toward me to get the gun out of the safe with a round chambered. I could probably reorient things in the safe to go muzzle down. No small kids in the house.

I have contemplated working out a way to more securely stash the long guns that will negate the likelihood of them getting accidentally knocked over without impeding access. This would involve some sort of "U" bracket and probably a rare earth magnet. Maybe that is the answer; the bracket along with muzzle down safe storage.

ETA: I started with the Cruiser Ready for Fighting Long Guns under the theory that if I had time to "go get" a long gun, I would also have time to run the action to chamber a round. This was also when I designated a pistol as the Go To/primary for inside the house. I recently migrated the shotgun into the "primary" role, so this business of stealth comes up.

[LJP]

I keep my go-to shotgun cruiser ready and I’m not particularly concerned about stealth. Whether it’s the floor creaking as I walk to the quick access safe or the keypad beeps as I open the safe, letting an invader know that I’m awake and preparing to defend is the least of my concerns. If they press the attack after hearing me, it’s for real. If it’s a non threat in my home, much like a verbal challenge, perhaps the racking of the shotgun will illicit a response along the lines of “don’t shoot.” I would also likely verbally challenge anyone in my home before shooting them, so again, stealth isn’t necessarily a big concern. I intend to keep my quick access long guns cruiser ready. It’s good strategy for any number of reasons.


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[BehindBlueI's]

I keep a sling on mine. I've seen the aftermath of people losing their shotgun in a struggle over the gun. I'm sure someone will chime in with "it's a software problem" but a sling can help retain a long gun and lets you free up your hands without instantly giving up the gun.

I also keep mine "cruiser ready" both due to familiarity and due to the height it's stored at giving me similar concerns about inertial discharge. I'm not particularly worried about being stealthy. Anyone who doesn't flee when they find out someone is home is targeting me specifically and expected a fight.

[mtnbkr]

I keep my HD shotgun in "cruiser safe" mode with the safety on. I have children in the house and this gives me a bit of added comfort against accidents (both kids are gun savvy and don't mess with guns, but still...). I'm familiar withe gun and can grasp, unlock the slide, take it off safety (Vang Comp big safety), and start working the action as I mount the gun, so I'm not overly concerned with the delay factor.

Additionally, our house is a 3 story townhouse with the main entrances on the 1st floor and a secondary entrance on the 2nd floor via a deck. We keep all doors locked at all times unless we're actively going in/out, so any intruder will have to make noise (not to mention setting off the yappy dog and likely triggering our external camera-based warnings) and then climb at least one floor to reach us. The design of the stairwell and upstairs hallway (actually a landing between the three bedrooms) is such that anyone coming up the stairs will have no cover from someone standing in any of the three bedroom doorways. Therefore, a slight delay to chamber the gun and take it off safe is a calculated risk.

As for slings, because I expect to grab this gun and "shelter in place", I don't see much of a need to sling it while I do "things". My kids are all old enough to be mobile and listen to commands, so I won't be toting them like I might have when they were infants or toddlers.

It's not a perfect strategy, but I think makes sense for my circumstances.

Chris

[powell556]

Consider a single point sling instead of no sling. Reduced snag hazard if you have time to put the sling on compared to two point. It’s not as good of a sling as a two point for most things but it better than no sling.

[txdpd]

There's more than one way to skin this cat. If you need to be sneaky, and you have the presence of mind to be sneaky, be sneaky.

We tell people to rack hard to avoid short stroking by getting the spent hull out of the gun and a new shell on the lifter, that's on the reverse stroke. Chambering a shell is on the forward stroke and it doesn't hurt to do it with some authority, to make sure you close the action, but being gentle with it is not going to cause a malfunction. One of the advantages of carrying a pump shotgun in the field for police work is the ability to quickly and quietly render a shotgun into an unfireable condition when climbing over or passing obstacles, and quickly and quietly return it to firing status.

If you need to, you can crack the action about half way, reach under underneath, push the shell in the mag tube back over the second latch, finish opening the action and drop a shell in through the ejection port. Starts off as the same process as getting the round out of chamber. BPS and Ithaca shooters need not apply. If you have the presence of mind for that, go ahead. Personally I would go for the noisy approach, and go with the simple process that gets it done right the first time.

[UNM1136]

I would also offer that your defense plan should be a part of that decision. Are you planning to hunt or hunker?

Count me in the sling camp. A shotgun needs 2 hands to work, and door knobs may need to be turned, loved ones shepherded, phone calls made, light switches thrown, etc. I like shotguns. I do like to use rubber bands on my shotguns and carbines to keep the slings out of the way.

Your shotgun has a light on it, right?

Stealth is waaaaay over-rated. Anything worth shooting needs to be identified first, and unless you are using night vision, that means a weapon light, a hand held light, and/or light switches will be necessary about half the time. Light can give you away as much as sound. Stealth is a tool, not a condition. I use stealth a lot when hunting for burglars, but don't refuse to hunt if stealth is denied me.

Sorry for being so long. I am tired, ready for bed, and running on at the keyboard.

pat

[Wake27]

I had no idea so many people still used a shotgun for HD.


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[Tensaw]

Great food for thought, all.

Re: the Hunt or Hunker thing. The way my floor plan / family is situated, even a full-on door kicking scenario is going to, at a minimum, have me posted up in my wrong-handed bedroom door to deny access down the bedroom hallway. On a side note, folks (not in this thread) who say you should never go hunting simply are not being realistic. I would wager there are a lot more ambiguous bumps that need checking, gun in hand, than, "Oh my, I have a home invader!" scenarios that would make simply hunkering down the obvious call. That said, there are a ton of variables that come into play when making that call.

Ya'll have me thinking that, for me, simply running the action, maybe combined with a hearty, "Get Outta My House!!" might be a good way to go.

[RevolverRob]

I gotta be honest with you guys. I didn't realize 870s and Mossberg 500s/590s had only trigger block safeties and inertia firing pins. Now that I've looked this up - I've noted Wolff has a heavier firing pin spring - much like one might equip in a Series 70 1911 - for at least 870s. I think I'll order some for my 870s.

I honestly never liked "cruiser ready" from the perspective of needing to pull the trigger to get the slide release...released. I've always opted for a "modified" cruiser ready (if I keep the shotgun like that). Where the tube is loaded and the slide release has simple been punched and the slide is partly back. I've found on the vast majority of shotguns the slide will drop back maybe 1/5th of its travel and then sit nice and stable without issue. The exception to this are Winchester Model 12s/25s/1300s because that action is so slick, they have a tendency to "fall open" due to gravity alone.

___

Hmm, now I have to find out of the 1301T has a firing pin safety or not.

[awp_101]

Ya'll have me thinking that, for me, simply running the action, maybe combined with a hearty, "Say hello to my little friend!!" might be a good way to go.

:D

[BehindBlueI's]

I honestly never liked "cruiser ready" from the perspective of needing to pull the trigger to get the slide release...released.

What?

[RevolverRob]

What?

You unload the gun and pull the trigger, that unlocks the slide, to make it easy to pump. Sorry not "slide release - released" just the way you get the slide unlocked without having to push the slide release.

More coffee is needed today.

[Wake27]

I’m really not a fan of giving verbal commands without having a gun on someone, much less eyes on. YMMV, but the whole “rack the slide to scare somebody” is already a load of bullshit, screaming from another room when you really don’t have any idea what’s happening isn’t any better.


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[BehindBlueI's]

You unload the gun and pull the trigger, that unlocks the slide, to make it easy to pump. Sorry not "slide release - released" just the way you get the slide unlocked without having to push the slide release.

More coffee is needed today.

There's no need to pull the trigger during admin loading or unloading, nor when you go to put a car carry shotgun into ready position. You just push the slide release and pump. It's extremely intuitive on an 870. I've not used a Mossberg in over a decade, but I don't recall any need to pull the trigger with it either.

[Norville]

I think the traditional definition of cruiser ready is with the hammer down so the action can just be cycled.

I prefer the hammer cocked and action locked, hitting the action release to cycle a round. Some call this cruiser safe.

[BehindBlueI's]

I think the traditional definition of cruiser ready is with the hammer down so the action can just be cycled.


"Car carry" for us is locked on an empty chamber. There's no trigger pull involved. I'm sure different people teach different things, but that's the only way I've been taught to do it.

[Guerrero]

https://youtu.be/dyqy8AC3uPQ

[RevolverRob]

There's no need to pull the trigger during admin loading or unloading, nor when you go to put a car carry shotgun into ready position. You just push the slide release and pump. It's extremely intuitive on an 870. I've not used a Mossberg in over a decade, but I don't recall any need to pull the trigger with it either.

As Norville noted below - I've always understood the definition of "cruiser ready" as hammer down, action 'unlocked'.

In scenarios of "cruiser safe" (per Norville's definitions below) I usually just punch the slide release when I prep the gun.

This is a mindset thing for me. I was taught at a young age if I pick up a pump and the action is locked, the safest assumption is the gun is loaded and ready to roll.

If I find the action unlocked, then I know it was unlocked (either by dropping the hammer or by hitting the slide release), in most instances so that it could be made ready from an empty chamber. Running the pump on an unlocked action results in a loaded gun (assuming there is ammo in the tube, which is actually the first thing I check with a shotgun (pick it up, insert finger into the loading port and feel for brass).

On a hammer cocked, unlocked action, pump it is usually possible to look down and see if brass is tucked under the extractor, as well.


I think the traditional definition of cruiser ready is with the hammer down so the action can just be cycled.

I prefer the hammer cocked and action locked, hitting the action release to cycle a round. Some call this cruiser safe.

[BehindBlueI's]

As Norville noted below - I've always understood the definition of "cruiser ready" as hammer down, action 'unlocked'.

In scenarios of "cruiser safe" (per Norville's definitions below) I usually just punch the slide release when I prep the gun.


I would suspect the reason we don't include a trigger pull, besides the fact it's superfluous, is any time the trigger is pulled there's an increased risk of a discharge due to improper clearing. I've gotten my shotgun out, chambered a round, then not fired it countless times. I then need to return it to car carry, often in a parking lot or roadside. Returning it to car carry with no trigger pull is safer.

[Chuck Whitlock]

---------------
Also, with respect to slings on HD long guns (specifically a pump shotgun), SME's seem to differ on this. Some (Tom Givens?) say ditch the sling to eliminate the snag hazard, others seem to maintain that every long gun must have a sling. Currently, I am in the "no sling" camp, but I am willing to be convinced otherwise. Again the context here is inside the confines of my residence/on my property around my residence. You may assume that a pistol is along for the ride, but that the SG will not be abandoned unless it is non-functional due to running dry or a malfunction.


Consider a single point sling instead of no sling. Reduced snag hazard if you have time to put the sling on compared to two point. It’s not as good of a sling as a two point for most things but it better than no sling.

Ready positions have been adequately covered above. I leave the gun slick, but it has a QD single-point attachment. Nothing to snag or in terfere with the action. The sling can be tossed over my head +/- shoulder and then attached or not.

[RevolverRob]

I would suspect the reason we don't include a trigger pull, besides the fact it's superfluous, is any time the trigger is pulled there's an increased risk of a discharge due to improper clearing.

I absolutely imagine that's the case. A friend of mine worked the last five years before retirement as the range master for a very large sheriff's department in Texas (I think it's the largest, maybe the second largest in the state) during their transition from shotguns to patrol rifles. The number of incidents involved negligent discharges of shotguns always struck me as terrifyingly fascinating. The biggest issue was the disconnect for folks from the fact that racking the pump and ejecting the round in the chamber, does not necessarily render the gun safe.

Apparently, they were initially taught to rack the slide back vigorously, ejecting the chambered round, and then roll the gun over and dump the round on the lifter into their hands. Then push the slide forward (no shell on the lifter) and then press the trigger. Once the hammer was down, they'd load the two ejected rounds back into the tube. I'll note this was not his policy, just the one he inherited. As you can imagine, a number of folks forgot that middle step of rolling the gun over and dumping the shell on the lifter out. Which predictably led to a number of NDs. Including a number of NDs that resulted in holes in cruisers in the parking lot. This probably could have been avoided entirely if they removed the "trigger press" portion of administrative unload.

One reason he was thankful the transition to patrol rifles was they got a chance to write the administrative handling procedures for rifles and amend the shotgun handling procedures. Since they effectively phased shotguns out of service and only into supervisors's vehicles, they also got rid of all the Remingtons in circulation and switched to Supernova Pumps. Now the admin procedure with a round in the chamber is, push the mag-tube disconnect on the forend, rack the slide, confirm the lifter is empty, push slide forward, put ejected round into tube. No trigger press, but also no additional component of pushing a partially fed round back into the tube.

[RevolverRob]

I’m really not a fan of giving verbal commands without having a gun on someone, much less eyes on. YMMV, but the whole “rack the slide to scare somebody” is already a load of bullshit, screaming from another room when you really don’t have any idea what’s happening isn’t any better.


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FYI: If you haven't read the book Tom Givens recommended a little while back about the Dallas PD Shotgun/Stakeout Squads, Holloway's Raiders (https://www.amazon.com/Holloways-Raiders-History-Departments-Shotgun/dp/1495810275/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=Holloway%27s+Raiders&qid=1551468256&s=gateway&sr=8-1) there are a remarkable number of incidents where an officer jacking a round of buckshot into the gun resulted in the surrender of a badguy.

There are also a remarkable number of situations where officers missed with shotguns (perhaps not remarkable to folks who have shot a lot of shotguns, but remarkable for those that think you "can't miss").

And a number of incidents where even when officers had the drop on a bandit, they either missed their shots, or didn't take the shots.

But as it were, Holloway was not an advocate for leaving the gun on an empty chamber, nor calling out verbal commands, etc. The infamous quote by Holloway in the book is, "I don't believe in shooting a hi-jacker without warning, but I think the click an 870 coming off safe is warning enough."

[UNM1136]

FYI: If you haven't read the book Tom Givens recommended a little while back about the Dallas PD Shotgun/Stakeout Squads, Holloway's Raiders (https://www.amazon.com/Holloways-Raiders-History-Departments-Shotgun/dp/1495810275/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=Holloway%27s+Raiders&qid=1551468256&s=gateway&sr=8-1) there are a remarkable number of incidents where an officer jacking a round of buckshot into the gun resulted in the surrender of a badguy.

There are also a remarkable number of situations where officers missed with shotguns (perhaps not remarkable to folks who have shot a lot of shotguns, but remarkable for those that think you "can't miss").

And a number of incidents where even when officers had the drop on a bandit, they either missed their shots, or didn't take the shots.

But as it were, Holloway was not an advocate for leaving the gun on an empty chamber, nor calling out verbal commands, etc. The infamous quote by Holloway in the book is, "I don't believe in shooting a hi-jacker without warning, but I think the click an 870 coming off safe is warning enough."


I haven't read the book, yet. I have addressed this in other threads. Times change. Rules change. TTPs change. There are lots of things that used to be done. I myself have a documented surrender with wet pants from running the bolt on my AR as I ran up on a felony stop where the suspects were initially very noncompliant.. I am not a fan of looking for trouble with an empty gun. I am not a fan of hope as a tactic.

Let me put this out there. There was a period of time in law enforcement where a suspect considered an ass beating during an arrest as par for the course. There was a time when you could shoot at unarmed, fleeing felons. Without warning. Wood shampoos existed, now without special circumstances baton strike zones are really important if you carry and use that tool. Overt surrender was their safest option. Shotguns were often the only option more powerful than a four inch .38 Special. There was a motivation to learn the shotgun and learn them well. I have not heard in years recruits being tasked to pattern their shotguns to be aware of and able to use pattern density. As the forces have diversified shotgunning became something to be tolerated, then suffered through. The largest agency in the state, (and several smaller ones reliant on them) has a court tested shotgun gual;

"On the sound of the buzzer you will take your shotgun from a half load to a full load and engage the target before you (at 10 yards) with four rounds of buckshot. You will then speed load one additional round of buckshot into the shotgun and fire it. You have 10 seconds to complete this drill. Do you have any questions? No? Shooter ready, stand by..."

Scoring was no pellets off the silhouette. Pass/Fail. Two attempts to qualify before remediation.

Bad guys know this. They have a job to do. So do I. I have way more rules to follow They just have to get away.

I don't see anyone advocating carrying a pistol with an empty chamber because the act of drawing and chambering a round can be a deterrent. Yes, there are many documented surrenders to the sound of a shotgun being racked, and the sound of an AR bolt dropping. And if you read some of the Roll Call stories people have also surrendered to drill instructor impressions, and threats to call imagined canines. Great when those things work, but they probably should not be your A answer.

Sorry, the whole noise of a shotgun being racked as a psychological advantage is a pet peeve of mine.

Another bit of food for thought surrounds a rather personal couple of stories. I used to be a big fan of hammer down mag loaded cruiser carry. Till I had a safe direction ND while chatting and trying to set the gun up. I was much more careful after that. When shotguns began to be optional and supplemental to carbines our SOPs wanted commonality of terms so we adopted the "half load". With a rifle or carbine a half load was a full mag (in training we recommend one short in the tube, or 28 in the AR, and consider either fully loaded) with a bolt locked on an empty chamber, hammer cocked and safety on. Some mentally deficient instructors advocated pulling the trigger to release the action so they could load the chamber. They were few, loud, and no one listened to them except lazy cops that refused to put in the time to learn the platform. I vastly prefer the action release on the 870, and the safety location on the Mossberg. Neither is an impediment to learning to run the gun from a half load with just a bit of time.

The second personal story is just six days ago a coworker's kid was on leave from the Army was out in the boonies shooting. He was trying to place his dad's old issued 870 into cruiser carry, believed the mag was full and chamber empty. Dad spent a while as a firearms instructor. There was a loud noise and a non safe direction ND that so far has resulted in broken bones (but no bone loss), several surgeries to include a skin graft and a week (so far) with an open, draining wound bedridden in the hospital. Pretty much a near contact wound with 00 buck.

Half load for me...

pat

[RevolverRob]

I haven't read the book, yet.


I suggest you do, it's good reading. Yes things change. Doesn't change the point that "chambering" a round has worked in the past and could work tomorrow. I'm not advocating it as a tactic - I am saying that it's not bullshit, if it's been used successfully before. It's just not necessarily relevant for most, many, etc.

Just to be clear, I'm not advocating now, nor have I ever, for empty chamber carry of any firearm. Guns that are unsafe to carry loaded are about as useful as tits on a mule.

From a pure perspective - I actually don't advocate "unloaded" guns...they're pretty useless and have a tendency to create inappropriate handling habits in the people that frequently treat guns as loaded and unloaded. Every single gun in my safe is loaded, all the time. Default is that a gun you find in my house or on my person is loaded. Treat it accordingly.

Finding out this morning that most pump guns have only inertia firing pins and trigger blocks as "safeties" is actually quite distressing to me. Because a cruiser ready/cruiser safe/gun without a round in the chamber is useless until it gets a round in the chamber. Adding steps to make the gun work is not my preference in any way shape or form. Gun up, off safe, gun firing, reload. That's my preference. That's why I'll be adding heavier firing pin springs to all of my pump guns. I ordered Wolff's at lunch time today.

I can understand why certain policies have come into existence for administrative handling for issued weapons or weapons that belong to a pool, etc. For me - the people handling my guns are me and my wife. We're both capable of handling a loaded gun safely (hopefully...) and thus I'm not into "cruiser X" status for my guns at home. At this point, I'll be evaluating shotguns across the board for those with firing pin safeties.

[BehindBlueI's]

I have not heard in years recruits being tasked to pattern their shotguns to be aware of and able to use pattern density.

We still do, but not every recruit is shotgun qualified any longer. It's optional for them to go back out to the range after handguns to learn it. Shotgun qual'd officers will pattern every 2 years or so as a reminder at in-service. I don't think it's a hard/fast rule, but that's my recollection of the average.


Finding out this morning that most pump guns have only inertia firing pins and trigger blocks as "safeties" is actually quite distressing to me. Because a cruiser ready/cruiser safe/gun without a round in the chamber is useless until it gets a round in the chamber. Adding steps to make the gun work is not my preference in any way shape or form.

A stored long gun is not the answer to a "oh shit, hurry up" moment. It's not a counter-ambush tool in that context. Once it's in your hands, THEN it's a counter-ambush tool. If you don't have time to work a pump/bolt/charging handle as you pick up a long gun, you don't have time to pick up a long gun.

[RevolverRob]

A stored long gun is not the answer to a "oh shit, hurry up" moment. It's not a counter-ambush tool in that context. Once it's in your hands, THEN it's a counter-ambush tool. If you don't have time to work a pump/bolt/charging handle as you pick up a long gun, you don't have time to pick up a long gun.

I'm not sure we're in disagreement on this point.

My personal preference is to keep all guns loaded and on safe (if they have a safety). That's my ingrained habit and operating mode for all firearms. So, I'm not inclined to change that. I was a bit taken aback to learn that shotguns are not drop safe. But upon review basically all long arms are not drop safe. So, I'll just add heavier firing pin springs to my shotguns and roll on.

[UNM1136]

Ready positions have been adequately covered above. I leave the gun slick, but it has a QD single-point attachment. Nothing to snag or in terfere with the action. The sling can be tossed over my head +/- shoulder and then attached or not.

I have tried several single point slings before, and hated them. Muzzle control seems to be more work when you have to go hands on. With a two point sling I can do the barrel push over the shoulder and have the rifle or shotgun behind me without flagging anyone like with the two point sling pull around, or the pound your muzzle in the dirt position. I Hate getting smacked in the beans on a quick transition. Never had luck with single points on shotguns flipping the receiver into the body (can I say the Pat Roger's Single Point Sling Technique? I mean Uncle Pat is dead, he can't hurt me, right?) Works great with the carbine since box magazine gives more area to hold the flipped gun against the body. The shot gun's narrower receiver cause it be much less stable there.

But your solution intrigues me. I may have to give it a try. Seems like I can not consider the sling as a component of the gun and something I can choose to use if necessary. Good arrest tactics can help mitigate going hands on with a shotgun. I wonder what @DaggaBoy has to say about shotgun slings...

pat

[BehindBlueI's]

Good arrest tactics can help mitigate going hands on with a shotgun. I wonder what @DaggaBoy has to say about shotgun slings...

I recently had a suspect literally thrown into me while my hands were full of shotgun. Officer went to kick the door just as the suspect opened it, shenanigans ensued.

I'm 100% with you on single point slings. I've no desire to be bagged on a transition and then every step thereafter. I know some folks love them, I'm just not one of them.

[BehindBlueI's]

I'm not sure we're in disagreement on this point.

My personal preference is to keep all guns loaded and on safe (if they have a safety). That's my ingrained habit and operating mode for all firearms. So, I'm not inclined to change that. I was a bit taken aback to learn that shotguns are not drop safe. But upon review basically all long arms are not drop safe. So, I'll just add heavier firing pin springs to my shotguns and roll on.

I don't for stored guns mainly due to fire concerns. Loose ammo cooking off in a fire is basically fire crackers and presents almost no danger. Chambered ammo cooking off is a gunshot like any other. The majority of my guns are in a fire rated safe, but I don't see the need to take the, admittedly limited, risk.

Treat all guns like guns and there's nothing to change on the ingrained habit side, regardless of loaded status.

[Tensaw]

I keep a sling on mine. I've seen the aftermath of people losing their shotgun in a struggle over the gun.

Would you mind elaborating on this? While the sling may help greatly in retaining the long gun, I can also see where the crook could use it to toss yore behind around. (Again, I am on the fence and willing to be convinced.) Thanks in advance.

ETA: BBI - I had never considered chambered ammo cooking off in a fire. Low percentage deal there, but still. Yeah, cruiser ready, Bonus: you get to say cruiser.

[BehindBlueI's]

Would you mind elaborating on this? While the sling may help greatly in retaining the long gun, I can also see where the crook could use it to toss yore behind around.

Can the crook not use it to toss you around while you are holding on to it? Answer: yes, you can be tossed and when you do you are now also disarmed. Very, very few people are trained on long gun retention and even fewer (including me) practice it very often. As such the struggle over the long gun becomes about strength and luck. If we both have both hands on the gun, we're both being pulled by the gun. If you have both hands on the gun and I can remove one hand to access a knife, or to just hammer at your eyes and get you to flinch and remove your hands to protect yourself, I keep the gun.

Homeowners who were disarmed were universally in a hallway or on the stairs. Most were one-on-one struggles, even with multiple suspects, because of the confined areas they were fighting in. If another suspect intervened at all, it was pointing a weapon at the fight and yelling. None fired into the scrum. Several lead to one party to the struggle firing the gun but hitting neither party. Almost all were situations where the homeowner COULD have shot prior to the physical confrontation but didn't. They used the gun as a tool of intimidation, not as a weapon. The exception was blindly charging toward the sounds of a door being kicked in and being surprised at how fast the intruders had made entry.

There was also a case of a homeowner disarmed while trying to remove a trigger lock, but that's not particularly relevant.

Obviously proper clearing techniques (like NOT running down a hallway port arms toward the noise) and the willingness to pull the trigger when required would eliminate most of these issues. The sling is just insurance for when you screw up or get surprised.

[Erick Gelhaus]

I'm a fan of mechanical safeties, so in the patrol car rack or at home they are safety on. Yes, it is just a trigger blocking, not a firing pin blocking, safety.

My 870s are set-up so that I have to manipulate the action release in order the work the action & chamber a round. As a left hander, it isn't an issue for my finger to manipulate the release.

I'm not of the view that running the action chamber a round is the same as "racking the action" to scare someone. I also wouldn't leave a racked or stored AR with a round in the chamber.

[txdpd]

In the scale of suck, getting thrown by a slung firearm sucks, getting popped in the mouth with a long gun really sucks, getting choked with a sling really really sucks, getting shot in the head with your own shotgun does not suck, it is finality. You can fight your way out of things that suck and survive.

We had a house fire where some kind of semi auto firearm started going off. The fire department pulled way back and used a ladder truck to spray enough water to keep the fire from spreading and let that sucker burn itself out. I don't know if anyone has ever been shot like that, but there aren't any firefighters that will take the chance.

[Chuck Whitlock]

Finding out this morning that most pump guns have only inertia firing pins and trigger blocks as "safeties" is actually quite distressing to me. Because a cruiser ready/cruiser safe/gun without a round in the chamber is useless until it gets a round in the chamber. Adding steps to make the gun work is not my preference in any way shape or form. Gun up, off safe, gun firing, reload. That's my preference. That's why I'll be adding heavier firing pin springs to all of my pump guns. I ordered Wolff's at lunch time today.

And this is why you've heard me ... and Tom_Jones ... lament the demise of the 590DA1 w/ a DAO trigger. The DA trigger was really no detriment (I hit clays with it to check) and I'd bet would work splendidly with the Magpul stock.



A stored long gun is not the answer to a "oh shit, hurry up" moment. It's not a counter-ambush tool in that context. Once it's in your hands, THEN it's a counter-ambush tool. If you don't have time to work a pump/bolt/charging handle as you pick up a long gun, you don't have time to pick up a long gun.

Coming from the LE side, if I have time to grab it, I have time to chamber a round. Handguns are loaded + chambered, long guns are loaded + chamber empty. I've had no cognitive disconnect with this.

[Chuck Whitlock]

I have tried several single point slings before, and hated them. Muzzle control seems to be more work when you have to go hands on. With a two point sling I can do the barrel push over the shoulder and have the rifle or shotgun behind me without flagging anyone like with the two point sling pull around, or the pound your muzzle in the dirt position. I Hate getting smacked in the beans on a quick transition. Never had luck with single points on shotguns flipping the receiver into the body (can I say the Pat Roger's Single Point Sling Technique? I mean Uncle Pat is dead, he can't hurt me, right?) Works great with the carbine since box magazine gives more area to hold the flipped gun against the body. The shot gun's narrower receiver cause it be much less stable there.

But your solution intrigues me. I may have to give it a try. Seems like I can not consider the sling as a component of the gun and something I can choose to use if necessary. Good arrest tactics can help mitigate going hands on with a shotgun. I wonder what @DaggaBoy has to say about shotgun slings...

pat

Allow me to add some context.

One is that I'm 5'5", so damn near anything muzzle down is a potential muzzle in the dirt event, and I'd probably trip over a long gun dropped straight in front. And with 32" arms, my weak hand is at the rear of a pump's forend, to the point that I normally wind up pinching my hand/pinky between it and the receiver at some point. My personal SOP is to run a SP sling over my right shoulder/under my left arm, and if the gun is not going to be in hand, I guide it to about my 0830-0900, with the right side of the receiver against my body, where it normally "catches" on my radio. The long gun is also very much a secondary weapon. I am not doing 8/10/12 hour patrols with it.

Another consideration is having a sling hang up on all the crap in our patrol cars while trying to deploy a long gun from the rack.

Due to the pump action, a forward sling mount must be all the way forward, which can still interfere with running the action if the sling is taut. At my previous agency. I had at least one guy trying to run a conventional sling on the forward swivel in conjunction with a Surefire forend, which not only blocked most of the light, but could also interfere with closing the action. With this (Fed) agency, we had money to burn at the end of the fiscal year, and as one of the instructors and THE armorer I was tasked with spending some of it on shit that was actually useful. I'd put the SF forends on our 870s the previous year. This year I added Mesa Urbino stocks (1-2 yrs before the Magpuls came out) with SP QD mounts, MCTAR-30 QD sling mounts on our ARs, and SP bungie slings w/QD buttons. Long guns were racked slick in vertical racks between the seats. I had the sling over the passenger headrest. I could grab the sling and toss it over my head en route, then upon arrival I could run it under my weak arm, grab whichever long gun I chose out of the rack, and sling it up.

My personal AR now has QD mounts at the rear of the forend and the rear of the receiver, and my Benelli M1S90 has the Urbino stock with QD sling mount. I use a Magpul MS4 dual QD sling, so I can use it either as a single point or a 2-point. I can run each gun slick or slung without much fuss.

Your mileage may obviously vary, but currently, for ME, this gear train supports my current mission. Hopefully that wasn't too rambling.

ETA links:
https://mesatactical.com/products/pocket-push-button-sling-mount-for-urbino-stock-for-ben-m1-m2-12-ga.html

https://www.midwestindustriesinc.com/product-p/mctar-30.htm

https://www.magpul.com/products/ms4-qdm-sling?ProductColor=VO343

[farscott]

Since the thread has now morphed to include semi-auto shotguns, I am curious as to how others keep their HD semi-auto shotguns. I am transitioning from the 870 to the Benelli M1 Super 90 for HD. I am starting with the tube loaded, a round on the carrier (HK-labeled import) for a total of 7+1, the bolt closed on an empty chamber, and the safety engaged (ON). To make the gun ready, I just need to retract and release the bolt and disengage the safety. I considered storing the gun with just a loaded tube and no round on the carrier. In that case, the shell release lever has to be depressed for the gun to feed the first round. One can cycle the bolt all day and the gun will not feed a round until it is fired after dropping a shell into the chamber or depressing the shell release. Due to the inertia action, I am not keeping extra rounds on the gun and opted for the round on the carrier.

The only extra weight is from a Surefire forearm. With the Benelli, it is not advisable to ride the bolt into battery as the bolt is likely to not fully lock into the barrel extension, leading to a failure to fire (the "Benelli click"). This example will cycle reduced recoil ammo, but one cannot ride the bolt home quietly like is doable with the 870. But I always run the 870 like I am trying to break it in order to not short stroke the gun.