Guns as impact weapons?

[Gadfly]

Saw this over at Primary & Secondary on Facebook. (If this is being covered in another thread, my apologies to the Mods)...

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I am not a fan of guns as impact weapons, as the chance is an AD is way high. BUT, you have to play the hand you are dealt, and sometimes that hand is a shit sandwich.

This officer worked that pistol hard enough to break it!

My daughter managed to break the trigger guard on her issues p2000, just by shooting it. Half way through FI school, it snapped in the front (where a flashlight switch would be). But the gun kept functioning fine. It was not dropped or smacked on anything...

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So, not advocating a polymer shampoo, but if you HAD to smack someone with a pistol, and thoughts? Any other folks seen polymer pistol trigger guards fail?


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[TC215]

I’m not surprised. Years ago, we had an officer break a USP .45 frame in two using it as an impact weapon at the end of a pursuit.

[Peally]

Shooting someone is probably a slightly better option in my layman's view.

Keeping the gun in one piece and serviceable is the last thing I'd be thinking about if I was trying to brain someone with it to survive so I'm not too worried on that front, but logic says hitting them with the plastic bits probably isn't as useful as using the metal bits given the choice (punch versus dropping it on someone).

[JHC]

BTDT folks have said to use the top of the slide of a semiauto pistol. The use of which sounds like what I seem to remember being called a "ridge hand" strike in karate if using empty hands. Maybe if swinging the "Hebrew Hammer" you can just hit with any part. IDK. ;)

[GuanoLoco]

In one of our ECQC Evo's two weeks ago I witnessed a student use a jammed polymer Glock/sim pistol to "tomahawk' strike his opponent in the face (FIST helmet face shield) while grasping the muzzle end and using the base of the magazine/magwell as the impact surface. SouthNarc told the wannabe AmerIndian warrior to 'take it easy' on impact force to the face shield but otherwise didn't seem to take any issue with it. Given that we were in simulated life/death exercises it seemed like a pretty decent idea to me.

I'm curious on how the officer was using it, resulted in breaking off the trigger guard and trigger. ???

And I would LOVE to see/analyze video of that fight - sounds Epic!

[Stephanie B]

the "Hebrew Hammer"
Just what I was thinking.

[Cookie Monster]

Back in the day, I took a class where the instructor demonstrated shooting to slide lock and then using the pistol as a impact weapon. I am trying to remember but I think it was all about shifting the grip on the weapon, grabbing the frame and slide, and beating the "person" or "target" with the tip of the slide/barrel.

Not saying I know or been there or that anything is right. Something to be thoughtful about.

[Gadfly]

I know Charlez Theron is anti gun and lefty... but I enjoyed the hell out of Atomic Blond (aka Jane Wick).

Here, we see her CZ out of ammo, and being turned into an impact device like a PR24. Punches and downward strikes are delivered... I can’t imagine she could hit someone hard enough to break that CZ... (do they have steel frames, or aluminum?)

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Side note: If she could just shut her pie hole about politics, I would enjoy her flicks more. This and Mad Max Fury Road were enjoyable. Not realistic at all, but I still liked them. I really enjoyed the Atomic Blond soundtrack too.


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[TGS]

Polymer might break, but metal bends. There was a thread here a few years ago displaying how trigger guards on steel revolvers would bend when used as an impact weapon, impinging the trigger.

Nature of the beast, beating someone with something that isn't made to be used for beating.

[DocGKR]

The fractured M&P40 was from a recent CHP incident. A weapon mounted flashlight may also have helped, but is no guarantee. In addition to breaking polymer frames, I've seen a lot of polymer pistols have the slide separate from the frame after using handgun as an impact weapon.

If there is no other option, strike using the top of the slide.

A back-up handgun is a critical option for LE whenever authorized; not having one available is STUPID.

[1slow]

Old street guys told me to:
With autos punch with the muzzle and hit with a ridge hand type strike with the top of the slide.
Also you can hold it around the slide muzzle up and averted and hammer fist with the rear of the slide upper corner.
With revolvers, muzzle punch, ridge hand. Do not slap with the cylinder, you may knock it out of alignment.

I know 1 guy who sapped a bad guy between the eyes with the muzzle of a S&W 29. Bad guy lost interest.

A real argument for a all steel handgun.

[AZgunguy]

When I was point man on an Army SRT team, I used to use my Beretta M9 to love tap people who wanted to fight. Nice little rap upside the head usually ended the desire to resist. Of course, the M9 is a nice solid chunk of metal.....

[Jim Watson]

One of the old timers, Jordan or Askins, reported whacking a recalcitrant horse with a 1911; bending the dust cover to where the slide wouldn't cycle.

Jordan recommended against pistolwhipping, saying it could be easier to convince the coroner's jury that you didn't shoot somebody too much than to show you didn't hit him too hard.

Of course sometimes you just have to use what you have to work with.

[Totem Polar]

I know Charlez Theron is anti gun and lefty... but I enjoyed the hell out of Atomic Blond (aka Jane Wick).

... I really enjoyed the Atomic Blond soundtrack too.



Mrs Sidheshooter and I both graduated HS in the 80s. We’ve seen that movie... yeah, more than once. Dug the 80s vintage 911 too.

[RevolverRob]

What about a hammer-fist with the butt of the gun? It could render a semi-auto into a single shot, until it can be reloaded (i.e., I've seen guns fling mags out before). But it seems like one of the areas least likely to affect gun function by hitting someone with it.

I've seen more than a couple of old cop revolvers with gouges on the butts that look something like teeth marks.

I know the old books advise not to swing overhand with a revolver with an exposed ejector rod, that's a good way to bend one and render the gun inoperable. Wasn't it Wyatt Earp who said he liked the long-barrel Colts, because you could hit a man with the side of the barrel and not worry about damaging the gun?

Anyways, I've meandered off. In terms of doing this, I would think a hammer fist strike with the butt, or a punch with the muzzle or hit from the side of the gun would work well. I would probably prefer not to hit with the top of the gun, because you risk knocking the sights out of alignment. Though, in a fight for your life, it is what it is.

[Jim Watson]

I've seen quite a few old service revolvers with brass or steel plates screwed to the butt.

They weren't likely nailing up wanted posters with their gun butt, so what was the reinforcement for?
Whacking suspects into submission?
Wear protection for the corners of the grips?

[GuanoLoco]

What about a hammer-fist with the butt of the gun? It could render a semi-auto into a single shot, until it can be reloaded (i.e., I've seen guns fling mags out before). But it seems like one of the areas least likely to affect gun function by hitting someone with it.

I've seen more than a couple of old cop revolvers with gouges on the butts that look something like teeth marks.

I know the old books advise not to swing overhand with a revolver with an exposed ejector rod, that's a good way to bend one and render the gun inoperable. Wasn't it Wyatt Earp who said he liked the long-barrel Colts, because you could hit a man with the side of the barrel and not worry about damaging the gun?

Anyways, I've meandered off. In terms of doing this, I would think a hammer fist strike with the butt, or a punch with the muzzle or hit from the side of the gun would work well. I would probably prefer not to hit with the top of the gun, because you risk knocking the sights out of alignment. Though, in a fight for your life, it is what it is.

I was trying to mentally count the number of times I had the opportunity to use my sights in recent ECQC Evos where 'impact weapon' distance was part of the equation.

Ummm, Zero.

I don't think this is a primary concern for civilian engagements where I can just go get some new sights at my convenience (after I get my gun back from the PoPo evidence locker).

[RevolverRob]

I've seen quite a few old service revolvers with brass or steel plates screwed to the butt.

They weren't likely nailing up wanted posters with their gun butt, so what was the reinforcement for?
Whacking suspects into submission?
Wear protection for the corners of the grips?

I've seen lots of chipped/cracked/broken revolver grips, almost all at the apex of the frame and grip at the lowest point of the gun. The way revolvers are balanced, if dropped they tend to rotate and hit butt first right on the ground, almost exactly where the chips and cracks form most often.

If carried in a more exposed holster, that's the section of the gun that bumps and bangs into stuff as well.

[RevolverRob]

I was trying to mentally count the number of times I had the opportunity to use my sights in recent ECQC Evos where 'impact weapon' distance was part of the equation.

Ummm, Zero.

I don't think this is a primary concern for civilian engagements where I can just go get some new sights at my convenience (after I get my gun back from the PoPo evidence locker).

Right. But we know that fights can disentangle and become gunfights after that. In those scenarios you might want your sights again, right?

Again, hammer with the thing in your hand, in whatever form you have to, to get it done, in a fight for your life situation.

But if we're going to think about it and train it - then we should probably think about how to do the least amount of damage to the gun possible so that we can use all (or almost all) of its functional ability as a gun, after we're done pistol whipping somebody.

ETA: Though it's a good idea to practice shooting your gun without using the sights once in awhile. Because I've seen enough (especially front sights) fly off of guns that not having sights available is a real thing.

[beenalongtime]

Without seeing the actual fight, I would be less likely to comment on the backup gun issue. I'd rather see this gun smashed like that with an ejected magazine, before releasing it into the attackers grasp to then reach for a bug.

[BWT]

Agreed on not commenting too much.

Thoughts on a knife in this situation?

Would that make it better or worse?

[Rex G]

My PD-issued Motorola radio would have been a better impact weapon, in my opinion, than most polymer pistols.

There was a rumor/legend/myth that a particular Houston PD narc had buffalo’ed a suspect’s head with a Glock, with the result that the upper and lower assemblies separated. I cannot verify this.

From a purely legal standpoint, a pistol is a deadly weapon, period, and so it might be a best practice to use the weapon as originally designed.

From an engineering perspective, and tactical perspective, if I just had to use a handgun, as an impact weapon, a linear jab would seem the wisest application, in most foreseeable situations.

Let’s keep in mind, that in a truly FUT, even if only one weapon is present, both persons are, arguably, armed with that weapon.

[Hambo]

1-Don't use you gun as an impact weapon.

2-Carry a 4506 in case you have to violate #1.

3-Carry a second gun for when you fuck up your 4506.

That's the tongue in cheek reply, except for the second gun part.

Based on general unwillingness to use lethal force these days, I'm going to guess the suspect should have been shot before the wrestling match that broke the pistol started.

[Rex G]

Jordan recommended against pistolwhipping, saying it could be easier to convince the coroner's jury that you didn't shoot somebody too much than to show you didn't hit him too hard.

I remember reading this; as true now, as ever.

[UNM1136]

Right. But we know that fights can disentangle and become gunfights after that. In those scenarios you might want your sights again, right?

Again, hammer with the thing in your hand, in whatever form you have to, to get it done, in a fight for your life situation.

But if we're going to think about it and train it - then we should probably think about how to do the least amount of damage to the gun possible so that we can use all (or almost all) of its functional ability as a gun, after we're done pistol whipping somebody.

ETA: Though it's a good idea to practice shooting your gun without using the sights once in awhile. Because I've seen enough (especially front sights) fly off of guns that not having sights available is a real thing.

Seen guys use guns without sights out to 25 yards for quals. On statistical American law enforcement shootings, knocking the sights off of the pistol is not a real big issue. Especially considering the proxemics of just smacking someone with your piece. Hammer fisting it or slide smacking it, you should be close enough to basically feel the target, and if you decide to go from less lethal to lethal, a transition to backup might just be what saves your skin, whether your smack gives you no rounds, or one round, or a whole magazine. You won`t know what YOUR shitstorm is going to require until it happens. Just like running the slide in entangled drills.

ETA: Knives may or may not change things. Bram Frank used to teach what he called "biomechanical cutting" where you target major muscle groups to disable limbs. I kinda put that likelyhood into a double tap solving your problem....If it does, great, if not, there is still some surviving to do. As Uncle Pat was fond of saying, surviving ain't necessarily winning.

pat

[UNM1136]

My PD-issued Motorola radio would have been a better impact weapon, in my opinion, than most polymer pistols.

There was a rumor/legend/myth that a particular Houston PD narc had buffalo’ed a suspect’s head with a Glock, with the result that the upper and lower assemblies separated. I cannot verify this.

From a purely legal standpoint, a pistol is a deadly weapon, period, and so it might be a best practice to use the weapon as originally designed.

From an engineering perspective, and tactical perspective, if I just had to use a handgun, as an impact weapon, a linear jab would seem the wisest application, in most foreseeable situations.

Let’s keep in mind, that in a truly FUT, even if only one weapon is present, both persons are, arguably, armed with that weapon.

I have seen a PR24 break, and too many ASP batons to ever consider carrying one again. I trained early in my career to smack people with guns, and a muzzle punch was always been the preferred with the people I trained with. ARs, shotguns, and handguns the muzzle punch was preferred. With long guns it was generally a technique to move someone and make them reconsider their resistance. Pistols it was generally a distraction technique, as knocking the slide out of battery could be a problem, and some guns dealt with it better than others.

[powell556]

I’m not LE and not BTDT and mention this as a point of discussion for the real deal guys as something I was taught that seems legit. It’s holding the gun one handed in your strong hand, muzzle pointed at bad guy. Reach over the top of the slide with your weak hand and C-clamp the slide with your weak hand.

Then thrust the muzzle forward into the bad guy using force from your right hand like a punch and the left hand is keeping the gun stable so that you don’t torque your strong hand wrist on impact and if there’s a round in the chamber, it might not go out of battery because you’re supporting the slide. Ideally also want to prevent a double feed if the mag still has rounds in it.

Now knowing what I know about proper body mechanics of striking, I realize this allows you to keep your elbows tucked in during the strike as well. I just shadow boxed it in the mirror and it seems reasonable but I’m open to reconsidering the validity. I don’t have a heavy bag at home to try it on and I don’t want to bring a blue gun to my gym to try it.

Context wise, I don’t have a great answer as to what situation I’d do this in. Perhaps I shot my gun to the point of being empty or failure and a bad guy was charging me. I could drop the gun and go hands on, or I could stabilize the gun im this way and use the muzzle like a mini bayonet. If you’re in slide lock, this technique still works.

I’ve also heard of the hook punch type strike where you strike with the front site in an arc similar to if you were doing an ear slap empty handed except you have a gun in your hand and connect with the top of the slide/front sight which has the advantage of being pointy. I’m not in love with this technique, possibly because a rear hook to the head I’m boxing is something rarely done and so I lack reps of my body doing that form of strike. Probably worth drilling as a secondary gun strike because your weak hand might be injured or entangled and you might be unable to use the first c clamp method.

Whatever you do, don’t strike with the bottom of the magazine well or the trigger guard. Even if you carry a revolver, where a bottom of grip strike is doable without damaging the gun, I wouldn’t train it because I don’t want it engrained and might come out when using a semi auto.

Basically, you need to find a striking method that conforms to the following:

A) the strike should be biomechanically correct if there was no gun in your hand. Such that your body can deliver appropriate torque and you are protecting your chin from knockout, and keeping elbows tucked in as much as possible to prevent getting underhooked or arm dragged. In other words, if you take whatever technique you’re considering and do it empty handed, does it still work? Because adding a 2 pound gun to your wrist won’t magically make a biomechanically poor striking technique be effective.

B) the strike should not put impact on parts of the gun that can break or cause mechanical problems like the magazine baseplate or the trigger guards and ideally not potentially cause the gun to go out of battery like an unsupported straight muzzle strike or a strike using the magazine release button.

C) when you add the gun into your empty hands, it shouldn’t serve as a lever to break your wrist on impact. If you do a one handed unsupported straight line muzzle strike, I’d worry that on impact I would break my wrist as my wrist torques.

Those are my current thoughts, hoping to be corrected or added on to for greater personal growth by more experienced BTDT guys here.

[1slow]

I have hit telephone type poles and heavy bags with blue guns. Straight punch with the muzzle and ridge hand type strikes with the top strap / slide top did not hurt my hand or wrist. YMMV

[LSP552]

Polymer might break, but metal bends. There was a thread here a few years ago displaying how trigger guards on steel revolvers would bend when used as an impact weapon, impinging the trigger.

Nature of the beast, beating someone with something that isn't made to be used for beating.

Yep. I watched a fellow LSP Narc try to open a side window with a 2 1/2” model 66. The driver got the message we were serious, but the impact (2 or 3 IIRC) bent the trigger guard enough that the trigger wouldn’t cycle.

[Cecil Burch]

The negative issues with guns as impact weapons falls into two categories for me:

1) Like using improvised weapons or things like "tactical pens" or handheld lights, people tend to not actually practice with them. I don't know how many times I have seen tips on how to hit with a pen or light that is completely useless and the pen will go flying out of the hand as soon as it makes contact with a solid surface. Most techniques with weapon strikes tend to follow this route. Hitting something solid with enough force that it will do damage and the tool will not collapse in your hand or get knocked loose is really hard to do. A lot of ideas sound great but don't meet reality. For example, hitting someone with the trigger guard part with your finger either in the trigger guard or held alongside the slide is a good way to do severe and immediate damage to your trigger finger. I think a straight forward muzzle strike is effective if the person doing it knows how to keep the wrist locked and at the correct angle and can actually move the gun in a straight line. None of those things are easy to do and require some work (at the very least, it requires someone to have spent a good amount of time hitting empty handed against a heavy bag or similar). Hitting with the top of the slide is probably the least chance of damaging yourself or the gun and a good chance of hurting the other guy, and probably requires the least amount of time to become capable at, but it also puts you at a huge disadvantage positionaly speaking. It is an arcing hit that opens up the middle space between you and the bad guy which is exacerbated by the fact that you are at contact range (or else you could not hit them with the gun in the first place). Hitting with the butt is probably almost as easy and almost as damaging, but it too is an arcing hit, and a good hit may blow out the mag plate, dumping any rounds and possibly making the gun harder to get back into action. I am not saying these are such a negative that it takes the entire concept off the table, but they are factors that are rarely discussed but are completely important to understand.

2) The strategic/tactical reason for striking seems to get underplayed. Why are you hitting with the gun? Is it truly the best thing to do in the moment, or is it the easy thoughtless response? Being close enough to hit means they are close enough to do stuff back, and they may need to be addressed before we worry one iota about hitting them with the gun.


Understand that I am not pooping on the idea, just bringing out problems that should be dealt with to truly determine best practices.

[Rex G]

2) The strategic/tactical reason for striking seems to get underplayed. Why are you hitting with the gun? Is it truly the best thing to do in the moment, or is it the easy thoughtless response? Being close enough to hit means they are close enough to do stuff back, and they may need to be addressed before we worry one iota about hitting them with the gun.


Understand that I am not pooping on the idea, just bringing out problems that should be dealt with to truly determine best practices.

Well-said. I “vote” for “thoughtless response.” Indeed, an opponent being close enough to hit me with a gun is going to prompt me to relieve said opponent of said gun, especially if I don’t already have one of my own, in-hand. IOW, hitting with a handgun is running a gun giveaway program.

The same can be said for “screwing the gun into his ear.” That is a short path to having that gun taken away.

Edited to add: When working the street, if I was within physical-contact distance of an opponent, the best place for my duty pistol was, usually, clicked into my Safariland ALS + SLS holster. (If not, it had better be in a very tight High #2, and for a very good reason.)

[SouthNarc]

I actually did an episode on pistol striking on Triggertime TV.

[GuanoLoco]

I actually did an episode on pistol striking on Triggertime TV.

https://pursuituptv.com/2018/10/03/39126/

Start at 5:00, it's a 4 minute segment.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Did a class where you had a revolver with unknown round on the FOF run. Previously, we were taught to grasp the top of the revolver with one hand, gripping as normal. Then you drove it forward into the opponent's chest. The teachers wore a thick plastic breast plate for safety. We practiced this.

Then, in another exercise, an instructor was demonstrating how to move if someone has a gun on you. He chose me as the shooter. I covered him and he dodged to my left - he forgot I was left handed and I 'shot him' as he moved towards the gun. Consternation reigned. Another instructor said that he should have known better. Well, we did a room entry. You were forced to walk through the door (no pieing or peeking). Then see what happened. Well, two of them jumped me, shooting as soon as I was through at close range for revenge. My gun had three rounds and I was out. I proceeded to use the technique on one instructor (recall we are geared for such contact).Then the whistle blew. As far as the 'shots, I had two trivial hits on my shoulders. No COM while I hit them close up in good places.

Whether this is a good way to strike is not in my lane of expertise as a FOG cognitive, neuroscientist - just sharing an anecdote. I am getting too old for such. Wah, wah.

[TCB]

M-4’s work good as impact weapons...I’ve muzzle punched a couple guys in the chest and if you hold it overhand on the hand guard and the receiver extension it works extremely well (like a hockey cross check) if someone is running at you...extremely well. I’d be pretty hesitant to use a pistol as an impact device, seems too easy too loose and if it’s a knock down drag out at that close of quarters or an entangled fight with a pistol out (why was the pistol out? Seems like something said deadly force prior to contact?) shooting your opponent seems like a better option?

[txdpd]

I have hit telephone type poles and heavy bags with blue guns. Straight punch with the muzzle and ridge hand type strikes with the top strap / slide top did not hurt my hand or wrist. YMMV

That's also setting the stage to squeeze really hard and accidentally pull the trigger, it's not a realistic expectation to use a punching motion with an extended finger (who does that) and not use the index finger to maintain grip at the same time.

When I've watched a lot of people in weapons retention training, there's always a finger on the trigger. No is subconsciously going to give up a third of their grip strength and not use their index finger.

[JHC]

I actually did an episode on pistol striking on Triggertime TV.

"when you hit a guy with a gun they tend to stay hit, don't ask me how I know" :D

[UNM1136]

I actually did an episode on pistol striking on Triggertime TV.

It's been a while since I did ECQC, and I don't recall being shown either of those techniques....I like both of them a lot. Glad to see the material evolves as necessary.


pat