Miscellaneous NFA Trust Questions

[Chance]

I received the paperwork for my NFA trust yesterday, and am having difficulty getting a few details tacked down. I keep getting contradictory info from Googling, so I'm hoping some of the more experienced folks could point me in right direction.

First, rules introduced in July 2016 (https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/final-rule-41f-background-checks-responsible-persons-effective-july-13)require each trustee to submit fingerprints and passport photos to the ATF. My understanding is that the ATF wants that submitted on their specific forms. Are we supposed to buy these forms and take our own fingerprints? Do we have to submit the Form 5320.23 for each trustee every time something is purchased with the trust?

The rules stipulate that we have to notify the CLEO that an application has been submitted. Since all the trustees are in Texas, I'm told the head of DPS would technically be a CLEO to everyone. So we have to send a notification with each purchase? What needs to be included in that notification?

Once the paperwork for the trust is signed and notarized, I just need to make a few backup copies and store the original somewhere safe?

[ccmdfd]

I believe the ATF will send you the fingerprint forms for free, but I just get some from my class 3 dealer, for free.

Yes, every submission requires a set of photos and prints. Even if you buy more than a single item at once.

My dealer also handles the Cleo notification, it basically is a duplicate of the application including prints and photos. Thus you need to have 2x the prints and photos for each submission

cc

[baddean]

Chance
Here are some relevant forms for various applications.
All of them come with detailed instructions located at the bottom of each form.
If you have any more questions just ask. You can also contact the ATF. They have been very helpful to me in the past.

https://www.atf.gov/file/11281/download
Known as a form 1

https://www.atf.gov/file/61546/download
Form 4

https://www.atf.gov/file/107266/download
Responsible persons form. For use with a trust.

https://www.atf.gov/file/61511/download
Finger print card sample (same as the one your local LEO uses. They should also be able to finger print you. Mine did. For a fee)

https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/forms-library
Link to the ATF forms library

Make copies of your trust and keep the original in a safe place. The ATF will want copies of the whole trust (every page) not just the affidavit.
Example: If you purchase 3 suppressors and apply to make a SBR, that's 4 items. Each item is processed individually. So keep in mind that is 4 of everything.
Example: 2 photos of everyone on the trust times 4. If there are two people on the trust that's 8 for you and 8 for the other person. etc.
Same with the finger print cards.
CLEO notification info is on each form. You'll need to know that persons name, the agency, and the address for that agency. There will be a cleo form for each item. You can mail them all together to the cleo. Once you mail them you've satisfied your responsibility to notify.
Like cc said your dealer might be able to help with a lot of this.

Hope this helps.

[Dan_S]

My dealer also handles the Cleo notification, it basically is a duplicate of the application including prints and photos. Thus you need to have 2x the prints and photos for each submission

cc




Please cite your source for this information.








Print cards, or any other atf form can be obtained here: https://www.atf.gov/distribution-center-order-form

[ccmdfd]

Please cite your source for this information.








Print cards, or any other atf form can be obtained here: https://www.atf.gov/distribution-center-order-form

My source is my dealer. That's what they have done now on 3 of my submissions (2 approved and #3 pending from last June)

cc

[Dan_S]

My source is my dealer. That's what they have done now on 3 of my submissions (2 approved and #3 pending from last June)

cc

What state?

I’ve never heard of anyone providing prints on a CLEO notification, prior to this thread.

As for who to notify, your state attorney general works.

[karmapolice]

The CLEO does not get a copy of the passport photo or prints FYI.

[ccmdfd]

What state?

I’ve never heard of anyone providing prints on a CLEO notification, prior to this thread.

As for who to notify, your state attorney general works.

NC

[Dan_S]

The CLEO does not get a copy of the passport photo or prints FYI.

Exactly. Another dealer that doesn’t know what he’s talking about. It’s a notification, not a permission slip. The whole CLEO sign off is gone, and even the sign off didn’t require prints or photos.

On said notification, it states clearly that no action is to be taken, unless they have information that would disqualify you. Hence, no prints....

[karmapolice]

So the two passport photos and two fdinger print cards are for the orignal and main form that go to the ATF examiners office, the CLEO only gets a form that has some of the information the full first form has, they do not get a copy of passport photos or fingerprint cards. It doesn't matter what state you reside in the CLEO doesn't get them, it is simply a form they get and if they wish to call the ATF and challenge they could. It is just like a multi handgun purchase form that a FFL has to send if you purchase two or more handguns in a consecutive five day business period. A form is faxed to the ATF and the local LE.

The CLEO copy doesn't even have all the information of what the main form has, it doesn't have the serial number for the item is just has make model.

[baddean]

Per the form 4 instructions

f. Law Enforcement Notification. The transferee must provide a copy of the
Form 4 to the chief law enforcement officer (CLEO) who has jurisdiction
over the area of the transferee’s address shown in item 2a of the Form 4. In
addition, if the transferee is other than an individual, a copy of the Form
5320.23, National Firearms Act (NFA) Responsible Person Question
naire, completed by each responsible person must be provided to their
respective chief law enforcement officer. The chief law enforcement
officer is considered to be the Chief of Police; the Sheriff; the Head of the
State Police, or a State or local district attorney or prosecutor.

g. Photographs and Fingerprints. An individual transferee, except if
licensed as a manufacturer, importer, or dealer under the GCA, must (1)
attach to item 15 of the ATF Form 4, except for the CLEO copy a
2 inch x 2 inch photograph of the frontal view of the transferee taken within
1 year prior to the date of the application and (2) submit two properly
completed FBI Forms FD-258 (Fingerprint Card with blue lines) with the
application. The fingerprints must be clear for accurate classification and
taken by someone properly equipped to take them.

[baddean]

This is from the Responsible Persons form for use when applying using a trust.
The reason I included this is to remind that this form also gets the passport photo and the two fingerprint cards in addition to those submitted with the form 1 or 4.

Instructions
1. Completion: Each responsible person (see definition 4) of a trust or legal entity seeking to make or acquire a National Firearms Act (NFA) firearm shall complete this form in
duplicate. (see instruction 9)
a. Each responsible person must submit his/her fingerprints and photograph with this form (see below).
b. Please note that this form is not required when the applicant on Form 1, 4 or 5 is an individual.
2. Item 2- Enter the name, trade name (if any) and address of the trust or legal entity identified on the Form 1 (items 3a and b); Form 4 (item 2a); or Form 5 (item 2a)
3. Item 3- Responsible Person information
a. Provide the information for the responsible person in items 3a through 3e.
b. Item 3e - Photograph: The responsible person shall attach, in item 3e on the ATF copy of the form only, a 2-inch by 2-inch frontal view photograph taken within one year
prior to the date of the filing of the form. Item 3c is obscured on the CLEO copy.
4. Firearm information
a. Type of NFA firearm: see definition 5 and as identified in item 4b of Form 1, 4, or 5
b. Name of maker, manufacturer and/or importer: as identified in item 4a of Form 1, 4, or 5
c. Firearm Model: identified in item 4d of Form 1, 4, or 5
d. Caliber or Gauge: identified in item 4c of Form 1, 4 or 5
e. Firearm Serial Number: identified in item 4g of Form 1, 4 or 5. Item 4e is obscured on the CLEO copy.
5. Item 5- Law Enforcement Notification: Each responsible person must provide a notification on this form of the proposed making or acquisition of an NFA firearm to his/her
chief law enforcement officer having jurisdiction where the responsible person is located. The chief law enforcement officer is considered to be the Chief of Police; the
Sheriff; the Head of the State Police; or a State or local district attorney or prosecutor.
6. Complete items 6 through 8
7. Fingerprints: The responsible person shall submit, in duplicate with the ATF copy of this form, his or her fingerprints on FBI Form FD-258 and the fingerprints must be clear
for accurate classification and taken by someone properly equipped to take them. No fingerprints are required with the copy of the form sent to the chief law enforcement
officer.
8. State or Local Permit: If the State in which the responsible person resides requires the responsible person to have a State or Local permit or licensee, a copy of the permit or
license must be submitted with this form.
9. Disposition: The ATF copy of the form, with the fingerprints and photograph, shall be submitted with the ATF Form 1, 4 or 5. The other copy shall be directed to the
responsible person's chief law enforcement officer identified in item 5 of this form.
10. Sign and date the form. The signature must be original.

[Chance]

So the ATF has to receive all of that with each transfer. Do you have to notify them when you found the trust? Can you keep fingerprints on file, or do you have to get a fresh set every time?

[baddean]

So the ATF has to receive all of that with each transfer. Do you have to notify them when you found the trust? Can you keep fingerprints on file, or do you have to get a fresh set every time?

I don't know what you mean in the bolded section?
Finger prints can not kept on file. You must submit fresh each time you apply. And, no photo copies.
I will say that if you anticipate purchasing more NFA items in the future you could get the appropriate number of extra print cards done at the time you get printed and save them for that future use.
The only thing that can be kept on file is your Trust documents as noted below. For 24 months.
The below is from the form 4.

(4) Documentation of entity existence:
(a) If the transferee is other than an individual, the transferee must attach
documentation evidencing the existence and validity of the entity, which
includes complete and unredacted copies of partnership agreements,
articles of incorporation, corporate registration, declarations of trust with
any trust schedules, attachments, exhibits, and enclosures.
(b) If the transferee entity has had an application approved as a maker or
transferee within the preceding 24 months of the date of filing the applica
tion, and there has been no change to the documentation evidencing the
existence and validity of the entity previously provided, the entity may
provide a certification that the information has not been changed since the
prior approval and shall identify the application for which the documenta
tion had been submitted by form number, serial number, and date
approved.

[vandal]

I have a trust with a couple SBS in it. It was set up before the whole fingerprint/photo thing. Is it possible to add someone to the trust, and would everybody on the trust need to submit that info now, or just the newbie?

[4gallonbucket]

I have a trust with a couple SBS in it. It was set up before the whole fingerprint/photo thing. Is it possible to add someone to the trust, and would everybody on the trust need to submit that info now, or just the newbie?

Based on what Silencer Shop is doing with the one shot trusts, the additional people on the trust will only need to have background checks when something is added to the trust. Also, I’m not a lawyer, so please don’t take my word for it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[baddean]

Vandal,
Some info for you regarding your question.
A link to Q&A from the ATF.
https://www.atf.gov/file/107196/download

And an answer to your question from that Q&A,

Q: Will new responsible persons, added after the making or transfer, be subject to the same requirements?
A: Once an application has been approved, no documentation is required to be submitted to ATF when a new responsible person is added to a trust or legal entity. However, should a responsible person change after the application has been submitted, but before it is approved, the applicant or transferee must contact the NFA Branch for guidance.
(I added the bold)

Like 4GB said, the "newbie" would be required to submit the Responsible Person Questionnaire, with the requisite prints and photos, if you choose to add items to the trust. And so would you.
Also keep in mind that if something were to happen to you that would require selling, trading, or otherwise disposing of the NFA items in the trust, the "newbie" would not be able to do that if they have not submitted to a background check with the ATF. Actually they would not even be able to legally possess the NFA items in the trust without you.
It would be best to contact ATF for clarification.
304-616-4500
Martinsburg WV

[WobblyPossum]

Bumping this up because I have a question. Do all the responsible persons I plan to have submit forms have to be named in the trust? My plan is to name myself as the only actual Trustee if I can.

[ccmdfd]

Bumping this up because I have a question. Do all the responsible persons I plan to have submit forms have to be named in the trust? My plan is to name myself as the only actual Trustee if I can.


If they are listed in the actual trust document as a trustee, then yes. If you are the only one listed, then only you submit the info. You can then add those people to the trust later.

Not a trust lawyer/expert but I've been led to believe that if they are added later, at some point in the future (such as your passing) they will then have to submit prints, background check, etc.

[WobblyPossum]

If they are listed in the actual trust document as a trustee, then yes. If you are the only one listed, then only you submit the info. You can then add those people to the trust later.

Not a trust lawyer/expert but I've been led to believe that if they are added later, at some point in the future (such as your passing) they will then have to submit prints, background check, etc.

I should have phrased my question more clearly. Can someone be a responsible person, with a Form 5320.23, without being named in the trust document itself as a trustee, settlor, beneficiary, etc? For example, I want to give someone the ability to possess the NFA item without me present, without giving them the legal authority to sell it.

[ccmdfd]

I should have phrased my question more clearly. Can someone be a responsible person, with a Form 5320.23, without being named in the trust document itself as a trustee, settlor, beneficiary, etc? For example, I want to give someone the ability to possess the NFA item without me present, without giving them the legal authority to sell it.

Gotcha, my misunderstanding.

Interested to hear from an expert. I would assume that the ATF is going to look through the trust document for responsible persons, then make sure the supporting documents are there. If there's a discrepancy, it will get rejected. But I can't say for certain.