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digiadaamore
03-14-2012, 02:28 PM
Hey guys i was wondering hypothetically, if you have cash in hand for either, a second of your carry gun so you have 2, or 2,500 rounds of ammo to get some serious training time in with the one you already have. what is the "better" purchase

TGS
03-14-2012, 02:40 PM
Hey guys i was wondering hypothetically, if you have cash in hand for either, a second of your carry gun so you have 2, or 2,500 rounds of ammo to get some serious training time in with the one you already have. what is the "better" purchase

Ammo/class/training. If your gun just happens to go down, tough luck. That's life, drive on.

Having two guns and no classes or training to conduct is pointless.

jetfire
03-14-2012, 02:43 PM
Chicken/egg scenario. If your primary goes down during the class and you don't have a backup, your learning experience is curtailed. If you buy a secondary but can't afford a class, your learning experience is curtailed.

If your primary is a fairly well regarded reliable gun, I'd probably recommend taking the class before buying a backup.

JV_
03-14-2012, 02:45 PM
How about a class and a few spare parts?

JConn
03-14-2012, 02:47 PM
I shoot a Glock, and for a while I just brought a box full of spare springs and parts to class and took my chances that I wouldn't have anything too serious happen. I never had to use my spare parts, but they were there. I would say, that as a relatively new shooter the classes I've taken have really helped my development.

NickA
03-14-2012, 02:56 PM
How about a class and a few spare parts?

I'd lean this way too. You should be able to get a good selection of spare parts, a case of ammo, and probably a one day basic class (maybe a 2 day if it's local and you don't have to shell out for travel), for the price of a second gun.

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Byron
03-14-2012, 03:00 PM
Not that it should be relied upon as a primary strategy, but if your pistol is fairly common, there's a very good chance that another member in the class will have one to lend you in the event that yours goes down (or something similar enough). Assuming you are a decent guy, and are attending a class with other decent guys, most people will be happy to lend you something to make it through the rest of the class.

I think the chance of having a valuable learning experience, even if you only bring one gun, is much higher than the chance that your primary will go down, no one will have a spare, and no one will have parts.

Again, I'm not advocating that people should be lazy and rely on the generosity of others, but I've been in numerous classes where someone's Glock or M&P went down, and a handful of students practically engaged in a race to offer up spares. "What is that? A 19? Here; I've got one! You need a holster too? You want to run the one with the Ameriglos or the Warrens?"

I have happily offered numerous people spare gear. Never had anyone take me up on the spare Glock, only because someone else would invariably beat me to the punch. Lent out spare holsters a few times though.

digiadaamore
03-14-2012, 03:45 PM
Ammo/class/training. If your gun just happens to go down, tough luck. That's life, drive on.

Having two guns and no classes or training to conduct is pointless.

i was leaning this way too, someone relatively new wants advise and i thought id get everyones opinion first. it appears we are all thinking the same way

Chuck Haggard
03-14-2012, 04:41 PM
In the end I would try to have two of the same pistol, a class or two, and some practice ammo.

JeffJ
03-14-2012, 05:32 PM
Hey guys i was wondering hypothetically, if you have cash in hand for either, a second of your carry gun so you have 2, or 2,500 rounds of ammo to get some serious training time in with the one you already have. what is the "better" purchase

Umm, neither? I'd say buy 1000 rounds and find a class, probably a one day for the price - It looks like we're talking about $500, so you can find a good one day class for around $200 and spend another $200 on 1000 rounds (one day class round count will probably be 500ish so you'll have practive ammo left over) spend your last $100 on spare parts, magazines, targets, etc.

Eventually, you need a second gun and lots of ammo and more classes. But, to start out - I'd buy gun, buy enough ammo to get through a basic class and start some sort of regular practice, then save up for another gun. Once I had that I'd - buy more ammo, practice regularly, get good instruction periodically, repeat.

But, yeah - I think everybody's on pretty much the same page.

Johnkard
03-15-2012, 04:09 AM
not to play the parrot...but: BUY A GLOCK as your backup. Used it will run you 350-400 and you can probably get 50-100,000 rounds out of it depending on it's prior handling and specific model.

If it's a question of ammo and classes, a flat sum of ammo isn't going to help much. Best investment you can make is to join a shooting community that will allow you to shoot with them and provide drills. Check your local ranges, but a good group will often just charge a yearly insurance deposit (50-100$ depending on group size and insurance guidlines) and a small range/class/target fee (10-20$) per event. My local ranges host a wide array of tactical, competition, and steel oriented shoots, and I haven't met a single weekly attendee who wasn't very good at his/her chosen shooting discipline.


A 1 day class will be a lot of fun, but probably is not worth what you will spend on it (just my opinion...instructors can tell you what you are doing wrong, but they can't build years of muscle memory into you instantaneously)

JAD
03-15-2012, 07:08 AM
Umm, neither? I'd say buy 1000 rounds and find a class.

Jeff's right on the money here -- for me there's a difference between practicing and training. To me, if I'm not learning anything from somebody else, it's practice. Training is an educational experience that requires outside input.

Of course you may have already taken a class or two. If that's the case, of your two choices I'd go with the spare pistol, but if I was that strapped I would first look at a reloading press.

Al T.
03-15-2012, 07:36 AM
Class. I was very late to get good training and I'm a convert. Wasted a bunch of time (years) and money (thousands and thousands) plinking while erroneously thinking I was practicing. :eek:

cracker
03-15-2012, 08:27 AM
Remember only perfect practice makes perfect and without the classes and training you might think you are practicing when all you are doing is wasting whammo. I am the one gun wonder and while taking training I am worried about something breaking and not having a back up but it has not happened yet. So my two cents is training so you can perfectly practice,more training more perfect practice. I am not sure how practice makes perfect if only perfect practice makes perfect or something like that.
Cracker

JeffJ
03-15-2012, 08:56 AM
A 1 day class will be a lot of fun, but probably is not worth what you will spend on it (just my opinion...instructors can tell you what you are doing wrong, but they can't build years of muscle memory into you instantaneously)


I could not possibly disagree with this any more. I see a ton of people at the range, and at matches, using cup-and-saucer grips, doing pathetic reloads, having zero idea of stance, etc. In other words, they were never taught the basics. If you don't have a solid foundation it is impossible to build up. A good one day class will go over proper grip, sight alignment, stance, trigger control, gun handling, and malfunction clearance (maybe) Without good instruction on these basics you're just wasting ammo (ask me how I know:cool:)

Instuctors can't build years of muscle memory, but building muscle memory doing things wrong is even worse. Ask any instructor: what's easier to get moving in the right direction? The guy who is "self taught" and has been doing things sub-optimally for years. Or the guy who only has about 300 rounds down range.

Johnkard
03-15-2012, 02:39 PM
I've been a martial arts instructor (Tae Kwon Do) for years. Between a complete beginner and somebody who has done a year of Karate, I almost always need to spend an equal amount of time forcing them to do the most basic drills possible. In addition, I have only ever taught one or two very athletic people who could change their habits completely based on a single correction from me. For the most part, It takes at least a few weeks of steady drilling for any noticeable improvement to happen.

This is why I think joining a gun based social group that has regular range activities is a better idea. More experienced members can teach you the absolute basics, and keep you shooting while you develop more long term skills. 1-200$ is a bit much for something that can be taught by any reasonably experienced shooter, and if you start spending time at your local range, you will meet plenty of them with adequate good will to help you on your way(just try to be a bit selective about who you take your advice from. Make sure his/her groups are small and actions are smooth.)

If you are determined to spend money on a class, you should decide based on your own experience and performance level:

Beginners should look for a week long military style course, or immersion training scenario. Best possible way to drive the basics into you asap.

Intermediate shooters can gain a great deal from the right 1 day course.

Experts should start teaching. Best possible way to continue learning.

JeffJ
03-15-2012, 03:01 PM
I have a decent bit of martial arts experience myself (Shorin-Ryu, Jujitsu, Tae-Kwon-Do, American Karate) mostly learning and a little teaching and understand that if that is your background how you would think that.

Pistol shooting at the beginner level is IMO, much more like golf (which I also play) - The fundamentals are very basic, and most importantly, static. Good instruction early on will save an immense amount of retraining later on with regards to grip (especially - I believe that it is difficult to make changes in how you hold things after several 1000 repitiions) and stance.

I also belive that a structured class, as opposed to informal education, builds a much better basis for safe and correct gun handling.

I've been fortunate to spend time around good shooters and good golfers and have experienced learning much more with short sessions with an actual instructor who is there to teach me, as opposed to trying to help me on the side.

I have no doubt that there are many good shooters who will glady help others out - but, I am a firm believer that teaching, especially teaching beginners, is a skill set in and of itself that is often discounted.

Also, your shooting community sounds somewhat unique to me - frankly I'm jealous, I don't know if we all have access to something like that.

Long tom coffin
03-15-2012, 05:58 PM
Chicken/egg scenario. If your primary goes down during the class and you don't have a backup, your learning experience is curtailed. If you buy a secondary but can't afford a class, your learning experience is curtailed.

If your primary is a fairly well regarded reliable gun, I'd probably recommend taking the class before buying a backup.




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