New FBI Pistol Qual

[ASH556]

The new FBI Pistol Qual just released and it's a bit more sporty:

FBI PISTOL QUALIFICATION COURSE
Revised January 2019

QIT Silhouette 2 points per hit

3 Yards
Draw and fire 3 rounds strong hand only, switch hands and fire 3 round support hand only, all in 6 seconds

5 Yards
Draw and fire 3 rounds in 3 seconds
From the ready, fire 3 rounds in 2 seconds
From the ready, fire 6 rounds in 4 seconds

7 Yards
Draw and fire 5 rounds in 5 seconds
From the ready, fire 4 rounds, conduct an empty gun reload, and fire 4 more rounds all in 8 seconds
From the ready, fire 5 rounds in 4 seconds

15 Yards
Draw and fire 3 rounds in 6 seconds
From the ready, fire 3 rounds in 5 seconds

25 Yards
Draw and fire 4 rounds from standing, drop to kneeling position and fire 4 more rounds from kneeling, all in 20 seconds

50 rounds 100 points possible 90 or above for instructors

Our own Tom Givens had input with the training cadre at Quantico on this revision.

[ASH556]

I gave this a shot today. Trying out some new sights on a G45, so my performance may be off a bit. I fired a 10-shot group at 25yds to confirm zero with the sights (could only score 90/100) and then ran this qual. Nothing over time, so that's good. Several strings WAAAY under time. That said, I shot at a mostly comfortable pace. Once the lower 10/9 ring border got so torn out I could no longer keep track of points down. I did my best up until the 25yd string and counted -10 for the ones that would be way low:

https://i.imgur.com/9Llh8tKl.jpg

I'm sure most of you can do way better, so let's see it!

[HCM]

I gave this a shot today. Trying out some new sights on a G45, so my performance may be off a bit. I fired a 10-shot group at 25yds to confirm zero with the sights (could only score 90/100) and then ran this qual. Nothing over time, so that's good. Several strings WAAAY under time. That said, I shot at a mostly comfortable pace. Once the lower 10/9 ring border got so torn out I could no longer keep track of points down. I did my best up until the 25yd string and counted -10 for the ones that would be way low:

https://i.imgur.com/9Llh8tKl.jpg

I'm sure most of you can do way better, so let's see it!

The new pistol qual Wayne posted replaced the 60 round course adopted a few years ago. It is shot on the FBI Q target which is a full size silhouette that looks like a milk bottle.

The new 50round course is a little easier than the the prior 60 round course.

The B8ish target you are using is for the bullseye course for firearms instructors.

Ok https://chiefweems.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/fbi-bullseye-course.pdf

[ASH556]

The new pistol qual Wayne posted replaced the 60 round course adopted a few years ago. It is shot on the FBI Q target which is a full size silhouette that looks like a milk bottle.

The B8ish target you are using is for the bullseye course for firearms instructors.

I know, was trying to push (I shot a 296 on the FBI bullseye course last week :cool: )

Wayne mentioned running this qual on a B8 in another thread:


Run it on a B-8 center or the 8" circle of the IDPA. Takes out the slop shots and such. This one does move along quickly.

[GJM]

I heard Comey shot 100 on this, when it was in development. We know this because he wrote a contemporaneous memo to file attesting to it.

[JSGlock34]

The qualification this replaces had all strings starting from the holster - lots of ready starts here.

[SeriousStudent]

I'll have to give this a try. I am delighted to read that Tom had a chance to give input. And more importantly, that the FBI incorporated that input.

[ST911]

Ran this tonight, 50/50 and 45/50. No QITs on hand, but I had humanoids with a smaller scoring area. Pretty sporty for most, but the larger QIT will help.

Rounds from the ready reflect renewed emphasis seen lately on having guns out in hand sooner than later.

Holster presentation, firing from ready, SHO and WHO, NSRs, a reload, standing, kneeling, compressed time frames, and one box of ammo. Like.

Well done to those involved.

[miller_man]

Is there a new target for this too or just new procedures? Thought I read in another thread there is a new target. Link?

[Mike C]

I ran this today at the range on a Q-PT target. 48 out of 50. I tossed two just over the left shoulder at 25 yards from kneeling. I was way under par and should have slowed down more. I liked this course of fire and it was good to break the routine of just running my favorite drills and sitting at 25 yards because I really want to improve there. As a matter of fact I was so motivated after shooting this course of fire I spent 100 of the 200 I brought just on SHO and WHO from various ranges/positions and doing multiple drills which I haven't done in a while. I am going to have to remember and use drills like this to help break the cycle. ASH556 & Wayne Dobbs thank you for posting/mentioning this.

[Tom Givens]

Is there a new target for this too or just new procedures? Thought I read in another thread there is a new target. Link?

The current course specifies the QIT target. You can use an IALEFI-QP or an RFTS-Q silhouette and don't count hits below the belt line. That's one of the reasons for the belt line on these targets. Hits must be inside the outline of the silhouette to count, breaking the line does not count.

They are still working on a new target. Progress in large agencies is incremental, at best. I think this course is a big step forward.

[SeriousStudent]

This is definitely a step forward, Tom. Thanks very much for your work on this. I think it will make the members of the Bureau safer, and us as well.

I started a new gig yesterday, and will be driving home past Dallas Pistol Club on my way home every day. So it sounds like I'll do this every Wednesday night at the range. :)

[1Rangemaster]

As mentioned in the class section, the First Person Safety class last weekend got a bonus with the opportunity to shoot this at the end of the day. We shot it from concealment, on the “T&T” target(please correct if I got that wrong) which has a “waist line”. Hits for points had to be in the bottle, above the line.
I appreciated the opportunity. I agree a bit sporty, especially(for me) when you throw in concealment.
Not intended as a criticism, more a question: why no two handed shooting at 3? I get that one wants to test single handed shooting, but is two handed at 3 just seen as a “gimme”?

[CCT125US]

With no QIT, ran this on a B8 instead. I was going for all in the 5.54 bullseye, so by my criteria I failed. Some strings were generous on the times, and I need to better use the time available to dial in the accuracy. Target has 5 prior hits circled and slashed.

USP9c
JRC CDAII
Blazer 124
Trijicon 3 dots
Definitely going in rotation

35299

[Gio]

I wouldn’t read too much into the difficulty of a qual course. It’s designed to check the box to comply with policy, not train people to win gun fights or improve gun handling/shooting ability. This one is no different.

[ASH556]

I ran this today at the range on a Q-PT target. 48 out of 50. I tossed two just over the left shoulder at 25 yards from kneeling. I was way under par and should have slowed down more. I liked this course of fire and it was good to break the routine of just running my favorite drills and sitting at 25 yards because I really want to improve there. As a matter of fact I was so motivated after shooting this course of fire I spent 100 of the 200 I brought just on SHO and WHO from various ranges/positions and doing multiple drills which I haven't done in a while. I am going to have to remember and use drills like this to help break the cycle. ASH556 & Wayne Dobbs thank you for posting/mentioning this.

Hey Mike C , please don’t take this as criticism, just trying to understand and benchmark a bit: is that 48/50 in the 8” circle or in the bottle?

Thanks!

[scjbash]

Is the passing score for agents still 80%?

[Mike C]

Hey Mike C , please don’t take this as criticism, just trying to understand and benchmark a bit: is that 48/50 in the 8” circle or in the bottle?

Thanks!

No criticism taken. Sorry my explanation was vague and I should've taken photos. 48 rounds were in the Q bottle. 2 just outside the Q bottle over the shoulder on the left side as facing the target, (hence 48 /50). 5 more were in the Q bottle but were just outside the circle, (not including the two I threw out over the shoulder from kneeling when I first kneeled down). The other 5 that were just outside the circle were dropped shots from standing at 25 and anticipating recoil, ( I also think one of the low shots might have been from kneeling but I am unsure what happened with that particular shot). I checked the target after each string at distance but not until after the string at that distance was finished hence not knowing exactly where everything landed during the 25 yard string but having a good idea. I know everything I F'ed up was at 25 because sadly everything falls apart for me just past 20 yards. Admittedly I also need lots of work at shot calling. If I was better at shot calling then I would probably be able to better tell you what happed for each of the shots at 25 but can't exactly. When I get under the timer at 25 it really screws with my head. I really should have slowed down. The time on the 25 yard string in generous and I rushed and finished in just over 10.5 seconds. If I had taken more time I think I could have done better since I know I can keep a 4-6" group at 25 with no time hack and should've been able to keep it in the 8". I think that is why I like this course of fire, having to go from standing to kneeling at 25 under a time hack with aiming at an 8" circle gave me a bit of a pucker factor and I can see how my performance degraded knowing I needed to move faster but keep a tighter accuracy standard.

So to completely clarify, 48/50 in Q bottle. 43/50 if you are just counting 8" circle which makes me sad but that's how I faired.

[HCM]

Is the passing score for agents still 80%?

Yes.

[ST911]

I wouldn’t read too much into the difficulty of a qual course. It’s designed to check the box to comply with policy, not train people to win gun fights or improve gun handling/shooting ability. This one is no different.

That's true, but they can be an indicator. A more vigorous qualfication test often reflects higher expectations and standards through the intiial and continuing ed pipelines. A cop that can fire 4, reload, fire 4 in 8 seconds at the 7 yd (even on the QIT) is the Top Gun in an awful lot of areas.


Just as lesser tests often reflect lower standards. Recent discussion of various east-coast standards at 15yds is a good example. A transplant from the NE I had to work with had never seen a shot timer, turning target, or the 25yd line before.

[Gio]

That's true, but they can be an indicator. A more vigorous qualfication test often reflects higher expectations and standards through the intiial and continuing ed pipelines. A cop that can fire 4, reload, fire 4 in 8 seconds at the 7 yd (even on the QIT) is the Top Gun in an awful lot of areas.


Just as lesser tests often reflect lower standards. Recent discussion of various east-coast standards at 15yds is a good example. A transplant from the NE I had to work with had never seen a shot timer, turning target, or the 25yd line before.




I disagree and think these courses do very little to measure or differentiate skill. There is no difference in passing it with a 100% and shooting 4 reload 4 in 8 seconds with your rounds spread all over the target to passing with a 100% and shooting 4 reload 4 in 4 seconds with your rounds through the center of the box. These courses continue to get dumbed down as well: this is the easiest qual course the FBI has had in its history. While it may be slightly more challenging than a lot of state requirements like the Georgia POST course, it's still far from a decent metric of skill.

Most of the standards drills coined/invented by private instructors or competitive classifier type courses like the IDPA classifier, 5x5 classifier, or USPSA classifiers measured to a known standard classification rank are a much better indicator of overall skill (or deficiency of skill) than courses like this one.

EDIT: I get it's fun to shoot these and see how you stack up on big name agency qual courses, but from an objective measure of skill standpoint, I think they are pretty worthless and LE agencies are much better served wasting the bare minimum number of rounds needed to qualify and then focusing on better drills and skill building exercises for improvement.

[revchuck38]

I tried this today with my PX4 from concealment. It did not go swimmingly. I found a huge, gaping hole in my abilities.

All the way through the 15 yard line I was doing okay, though not wonderfully. I used a current IDPA practice target with the goal of keeping everything inside the -0. I managed to throw a shot into the -1 from the 3 (first shot after the transition), 7 (probably the first shot after the reload) and the 15, plus went overtime by .26 seconds on the first string at the 7. Since the first two dropped shots were probably caused by rushing, I wanted to make sure I used all of the time allotted, and was a bit too careful.

It's been a while since I shot at 25 yards, and that came back to bite me. The first four standing felt okay, then I went to kneeling and wasn't as steady. I ended up with six in the -1 and one in the -3, all low. I was pretty miffed.

Here's the target:
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And here are the times:
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I ended up with time left over on most of the strings. Especially the 25 yard one. :mad:

I'm going to find the thread on 25 yard shooting and start reading.

[CCT125US]

Gio would you be more in favor of a hit factor type scoring system, a pass / fail qual, tougher standards in general? Balancing the ideal with the time and budgetary constraints aside...

[ASH556]

I'm going to find the thread on 25 yard shooting and start reading.

I'll save you the trouble: Grip, sights, trigger, lol.

For real though, what's spun me up as I re-calibrated over the last 2-3 months was shooting 1 hole groups at 7yds. That takes the vision aspect out of the equation, that sometimes makes 25yds hard. Once you can do 10 in one hole at 7, the 25yd stuff becomes much easier.

[JSGlock34]

A more vigorous qualification test often reflects higher expectations and standards through the initial and continuing ed pipelines. A cop that can fire 4, reload, fire 4 in 8 seconds at the 7 yd (even on the QIT) is the Top Gun in an awful lot of areas.


I don't disagree that the FBI qualification has higher standards than many other LE agencies, but how is this version more vigorous than what it replaced? You mention the fire 4, reload, fire 4 in 8 seconds standards at 7 yards...the qualification test this one replaces had the same stage - except starting from the draw instead of the ready...

The one handed stage seems a bit more sporty (six seconds as opposed to eight), but the rest appears to be easier, with many more ready position starts.

[revchuck38]

I'll save you the trouble: Grip, sights, trigger, lol.

For real though, what's spun me up as I re-calibrated over the last 2-3 months was shooting 1 hole groups at 7yds. That takes the vision aspect out of the equation, that sometimes makes 25yds hard. Once you can do 10 in one hole at 7, the 25yd stuff becomes much easier.

Thanks, I might try that. My vision has definitely gone downhill as I've aged. My dominant right eye had its retina detach a couple of years ago, and after the surgery, I ended up with a lot more and bigger floaters which affect my sight picture.

[Gio]

Gio would you be more in favor of a hit factor type scoring system, a pass / fail qual, tougher standards in general? Balancing the ideal with the time and budgetary constraints aside...

This is a tough problem to solve, bc there are significant time and budget constraints, especially with a large department or agency. The problem is you can’t do hit factor or time plus scoring with a line of people shooting at the same time. I would like to see more objective scoring rings (I.e an A/C/D or -0/-1/-3 zone) and incorporate that into the scoring such as requiring at least 50% of the shots in the -0 otherwise it’s a fail even if all rounds are in the silhouette.

I think the overall shooting standards have decreased over time as well in LE with the administrative push to get a higher percentage of people to pass qualifications. This doesn’t make for better gun fighters though, in fact it has the opposite effect. This is just one example of a qual standard that went from semi-challenging to easy to you-almost-don’t-need-training to pass.

Edit to fix autocorrects

[HCM]

Gio would you be more in favor of a hit factor type scoring system, a pass / fail qual, tougher standards in general? Balancing the ideal with the time and budgetary constraints aside...

As Gio said administrative burden of individual times for hit factor scoring would be impractical for large scale LE training with groups / lines of shooters.

The biggest cost in LE firearms training is not ammo, guns or range time, it’s man hours.

An LEO who is unable to qualify has to come back to the range for at least half a day. That is actually 1.5 man days or 12 hours because you should have at least two instructors for remedial qualifications ( as a witnesss) in addition to the remedial shooter. For GS 13 LEOs with 25% LEAP, AVP etc their effective rate is about $56 per hour. 12 man hours for a half day remedial is $672.

My Agency qual has objective scoring rings (5/4/2) and two mandatory head shots which trigger a penalty if not in the head but ultimately it’s the same 80% to pass.

[revchuck38]

I was pretty upset with myself for my poor shooting when I tried this a few days ago. I decided to try it again, with my carry PX4 rather than the training one and some Magtech 115-grain hardball rather than my handloads. I even dug out my old Ruger MKII bull barrel and some CCI standard velocity ammo to check that yes, I can hit a damned B8 at 25 yards. I had begun to doubt that.

This time worked out better:
35444

These were the times:
35445

I dropped either three or four rounds out of the -0, the one at 7 o'clock is barely touching the line but I'm taking it. ;) I'm guessing that the shots outside the -0 would still be on the QIT bottle. Even if they weren't, I'd still have 47/50 - 94%. That's passing for an instructor...and I kinda suck. WTF?

I enjoyed shooting this, and I'm glad the first try showed a big hole that I need to fix.

[ASH556]

I shot this again on what I "think" is the right target: QIT97. I blazed a bunch of the times and was having fun until I got a little too careless at 15 and threw one high left, so I guess it's 98/100. Oh well.

https://i.imgur.com/FcEZe6Nl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/hjgVByTl.jpg

[Tom Givens]

I shot this again on what I "think" is the right target: QIT97. I blazed a bunch of the times and was having fun until I got a little too careless at 15 and threw one high left, so I guess it's 98/100. Oh well.

https://i.imgur.com/FcEZe6Nl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/hjgVByTl.jpg

Actually, that's a 96. The high right one doesn't count. The way they score the target the hole has to be on the inside of the target's outline. Grazes don't count.

We conducted a pistol instructor course this past weekend and used the new (January 2019) FBI pistol qualification course for the first time.

We had 16 students of highly variable skill level, from retired LE’s with lots of training to relative newbies and one or two real beginners. We had 5 females and 11 males. Only one student ran an optic, iron sights for everyone else.

The average score was 94.9%. Four students (25% of the class) shot a clean 100% score.

This version is convenient, in that it takes one fifty round box of ammunition and runs a bit quicker than the old version (PQC-13). There are 8 rounds at 25 yards now, instead of 10, which I think is more in line with reality. Seems like a fairly good baseline skill check at 90%+.

[That Guy]

What is the size of the target / scoring area, when compared to a more common target, such as an IPSC Metric or IDPA?

[Gio]

What is the size of the target / scoring area, when compared to a more common target, such as an IPSC Metric or IDPA?

The target is about the width of a USPSA C/IDPA -1 zone, but the target extends a little lower than a C/-1 zone.

[ASH556]

Made better use of the par times and shot it clean on the correct target just to say I did it.
ETA: Funny, 3 of the dropped (out of the small bottle) rounds were at 3yds because with a hanging target, muzzle blast is a thing and the target blew almost completely horizontal by the 3rd shot of each hand. :cool:

35658
35659

[Tom Givens]

Made better use of the par times and shot it clean on the correct target just to say I did it.

35658
35659

That's good work. Everyone should bear in mind, this was not designed for upper level shooters like the people who populate this forum. It is intended for employees who are not gun people, but who need to develop decent gunhandling and marksmanship skills with just quarterly exposure to shooting. This is light years ahead of the POST qualification course most state and local police officers qualify on.

[BigD]

That is actually 1.5 man days or 12 hours because you should have at least two instructors for remedial qualifications ( as a witnesss) in addition to the remedial shooter. For GS 13 LEOs with 25% LEAP, AVP etc their effective rate is about $56 per hour. 12 man hours for a half day remedial is $672.



Your figures aren't accurate, since those red shirts would have been getting paid to sit around drinking coffee and grumbling even if they didn't have to run someone through remedial training. And I think FBI uses non-Agents (someone will correct me if I'm wrong, I'm sure) as firearm instructors, they wouldn't be getting LEAP, and very few would be 13s.

[HCM]

Your figures aren't accurate, since those red shirts would have been getting paid to sit around drinking coffee and grumbling even if they didn't have to run someone through remedial training. And I think FBI uses non-Agents (someone will correct me if I'm wrong, I'm sure) as firearm instructors, they wouldn't be getting LEAP, and very few would be 13s.

Ok - you’re wrong.

1) Maybe in a local PD they might be sitting around but not in Federal LE. My Agency’s Field Office local Area Of Responsibility is an 8 hour drive north to south and a 6 hour drive east to west. The local FBI field office mirrors ours AOR. My Agency has 1 full time FI for that area and 700 LEOs and that person is a program manager doing all the logistics for firearms,body armor, ammo, ranges etc through out the AOR. They rarely get out to the range. The rest, including the firearms leads in the sub offices / RAs are all collateral duty FI’s who have other full time duties. The FBI Field Office for our AOR also has one full time FI for the same area and several hundred agents. The FI’s for all other Fed LE in my city (USMS, ATF, DEA etc) are all collateral duty as well.

2) The FBI uses some civilian SMEs or rehired annuitants at their academy in Quantico (as does FLETC) but in the field all FI’s are active Agents. FLETC’s civilian SMEs and rehires are all GS12/13s. They don’t get LEAP or AVP but most are double dipping and receiving a retirement check from elsewhere. It’s nice work if you can get it.

[BigD]

You’re right. I wasn’t even thinking about everyone that doesn’t work in the DC area.

[BobM]

Last summer I had my department fire this course ( the version in effect at the time) immediately after the required Ohio 25 round course. I thought it would be a constructive way to use up the remainder of their duty ammo. Everyone passed but their was only one 60/60. There are always at least half of the officers shooting a 25/25 on the state course. I also thought it was good to have the officers meeting a tougher standard. I'm planning on them running it again this spring.