Observations on cheap ammo

[ArgentFix]

About 18 months ago I started keeping records of everything I shot. I pulled out all centerfire pistol info from my 2018 notes and discovered something interesting. Excluding a problematic CZ 75, silly conversion projects, or anything magazine or slide stop related, and focusing on only failures to feed, eject, or extract, I found exactly 6 stoppages in at least 20,000 rounds. Not a single one when using what I'd consider top-quality ammo like Lawman, American Eagle, S&B, Fiocchi, etc:

P99c: 1 fail to battery with Rem 115 UMC bulk
P226 9mm: 1 stovepipe with Win 124gr NATO
VP9: 1 stovepipe with Rem 115 UMC bulk
92FS: 1 FTFeed Independence Aluminum 115
P226 .40: 1 stovepipe with Winchester Purple
G42: 1 FTFeed Perfecta

I've also noticed the loose packed Remington UMC 115gr labelled L9MM3 are different rounds from the L9MM3 boxes. Different primers, different headstamps. I had no stoppages with the boxed version in 2000 rounds.

While some cheap ammo is reliable, if I had used only high quality rounds I would have had exactly zero ammo-related malfunctions in that whole year.

[ranger]

How much money did you save with the cheap ammo? Would you have trained less with "high quality ammo"?

[ArgentFix]

How much money did you save with the cheap ammo? Would you have trained less with "high quality ammo"?

Both valid points. Don't get me wrong though, I love cheap ammo. I have 9 cases of Blazer Brass (which has been great for me) in my closet due to the recent rebates. I just found it interesting to find a clear delineation between "top" and "ok" quality ammo in my own notes. It makes me less likely to give the side-eye to an otherwise reliable gun that malfunctions with cheap ammo.

[ranger]

I am even "cheaper", 99% of my ammo is my reloads.

[revchuck38]

My experience is that the hotter cheap stuff works better than the softer-shooting stuff. Blazer Brass 9x19 feels like it's right on the edge of having enough power to function. S&B 9x19 and Winchester NATO-spec ammo work really well for me.

[03RN]

You don't consider Winchester NATO as top quality ammo?

Eta. And fiocchi makes perfecta.

[23JAZ]

I have shot about 20K through my G19 of nothing but the cheap stuff. Tula, Wolf, Perfecta, Winchester White Box, Federal Aluminum, and Tula Brass with exactly 1 failure to extract and 1 failure to fire. The gun ran about 10K rounds stock then another 10K after changing springs, extractor, guide rod, and a trip to Boresight for frame work. But it eats the cheap stuff like a fat kid eats Twinkies. In my experience Glocks are not finicky. If it fires it will cycle. Modern off the shelf cheap stuff is questionable in regards to accuracy more than reliability in my observations.

[03RN]

I have shot about 20K through my G19 of nothing but the cheap stuff. Tula, Wolf, Perfecta, Winchester White Box, Federal Aluminum, and Tula Brass with exactly 1 failure to extract and 1 failure to fire. The gun ran about 10K rounds stock then another 10K after changing springs, extractor, guide rod, and a trip to Boresight for frame work. But it eats the cheap stuff like a fat kid eats Twinkies. In my experience Glocks are not finicky. If it fires it will cycle. Modern off the shelf cheap stuff is questionable in regards to accuracy more than reliability in my observations.

I find that incredible if true.

Only because steel cased ammo has a 5-10 round/k failure to fire in striker fired guns IME and while working at an indoor range.

I don't count that as a negative. I figure it's value added to practice malfunction drills.

[ArgentFix]

You don't consider Winchester NATO as top quality ammo?

Eta. And fiocchi makes perfecta.

I think I've only shot 1k Win NATO in total ever, so maybe it's fine but it's the only stoppage I've had in that P226 in 9mm. The Perfecta 380 ejects noticeably weaker in my G42 and I was not surprised by that one. My understanding was Perfecta is Fiocchi parts assembled by someone else.

[That Guy]

The only stoppages I can recall that have happened with 9mm pistols in the last few years have been with Fiocchi ammunition. S&B and Geco have been more reliable.

[revchuck38]

You don't consider Winchester NATO as top quality ammo?

For me and my purposes, I do. I just used it to see if my DAO PX4 would work with the lightest hammer spring available and it didn't (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?35136-Looking-for-Hard-Primer-9x19-Ammo), but that's not a fault, just an indication that it has hard primers. I've used it in a couple of classes with no problems; one of them was a low-light class and I found that it has less muzzle flash than my carry load (124-grain +P HST). Velocity runs about 25 fps slower than the HST, it's decently accurate, and it's available for $9/box. IMO it's tied with 124-grain S&B for the best training ammo out there.

[SeriousStudent]

You don't consider Winchester NATO as top quality ammo?

Eta. And fiocchi makes perfecta.

Sadly, I have had really bad results accuracy-wise with the Perfecta 38 Special loads. Jackdog and I tried it at last year's HitS Revolver Roundup, and it grouped terribly in 5 different pistols. Switching back to the regular Speer and Federal ammo saw greatly improved accuracy.

I don't know if it was just that particular batch, but I was greatly saddened by the results we saw.

Have you had good luck with it? I have liked the regular Fiocchi ammo I have tried in the past.

[Alpha Sierra]

The only stoppages I can recall that have happened with 9mm pistols in the last few years have been with Fiocchi ammunition. S&B and Geco have been more reliable.

How can you be sure ammo was the cause?

[That Guy]

How can you be sure ammo was the cause?

I am really insensitive to recoil of a 9mm pistol. If I want to compare the recoil of two different types of 9mm ammunition, I need to shoot them side by side and really focus on the recoil, to the extent that I'm not really even aiming, to detect a difference. Hot loads, light loads, heavy bullets, light bullets, as long as I'm focusing on my shooting it's all just 9mm to me.

Even with my recoil insensitivity, and even though when the stoppages occurred I was focusing on putting bullets through my targets so basically ignoring recoil, when a Fiocchi round failed to extract I noticed a clearly abnormal recoil impulse. What I'm talking about is for example doing a Bill Drill and going pew, pew, popwhat the hell was that? It was that apparent.

And of course after changing ammo brand there were no more stoppages, so there's that too.

[Alpha Sierra]

I am really insensitive to recoil of a 9mm pistol. If I want to compare the recoil of two different types of 9mm ammunition, I need to shoot them side by side and really focus on the recoil, to the extent that I'm not really even aiming, to detect a difference. Hot loads, light loads, heavy bullets, light bullets, as long as I'm focusing on my shooting it's all just 9mm to me.

Even with my recoil insensitivity, and even though when the stoppages occurred I was focusing on putting bullets through my targets so basically ignoring recoil, when a Fiocchi round failed to extract I noticed a clearly abnormal recoil impulse. What I'm talking about is for example doing a Bill Drill and going pew, pew, popwhat the hell was that? It was that apparent.

And of course after changing ammo brand there were no more stoppages, so there's that too.

Gotcha makes sense.

[03RN]

Sadly, I have had really bad results accuracy-wise with the Perfecta 38 Special loads. Jackdog and I tried it at last year's HitS Revolver Roundup, and it grouped terribly in 5 different pistols. Switching back to the regular Speer and Federal ammo saw greatly improved accuracy.

I don't know if it was just that particular batch, but I was greatly saddened by the results we saw.

Have you had good luck with it? I have liked the regular Fiocchi ammo I have tried in the past.

I had great performance with it. I bought 2 cases for $400 and have shot through all of it. Stout recoil in my 30oz m64. Felt like it was close to 1000fps.

Very accurate too in my m19, m64, and my wife's M15.

I was shooting at boulders and stumps one day during hunting season up in VT. I was getting really good hits out to 100 yards. Measurably good groups at a measured 25 yards on qual targets. I think I shot my best 30 rd group with my m19 with them as well.

Now I have 2k peices of brass to load up:cool:

[willie]

In the era of bulk ammo, dirt cheap prices, and known failure of some supposedly first quality ammo like Winchester Ranger, I'm not certain that a clear brand demarcation line exists to distinguish crap from so-so ammo and so-so from excellent ammo. And then there can be variation among lots within the same brand. If a striker fired handgun known to malfunction with steel case ammo does not malfunction, one reason could be presence of a firing pin longer than spec. Likewise the firing pin spring could be stronger than spec. The two variations occurring together would likely pop any cap available.

[pangloss]

I don't think the OP's data set is sufficient to support strong conclusions. It looks like each gun had one problem with one round of ammo, and without knowing the denominator for each gun/ammo combination, it's impossible to interpret. Regardless, a frequency of 6 out of 20,000 is pleasantly rare.

The worst ammo I've ever had was some S&B copper washed steel cased ammo I bought about a decade ago. Fortunately I only bought a few boxes. The gun (Gen17) worked fine shooting other ammo. Switched to S&B and couldn't get through a mag without multiple problems. Switched back to other ammo and the problems went away. The S&B I've bought lately has been fantastic. It is my favorite range ammo now. Interestingly, the only stoppage I've had in the past couple or three thousand rounds came from a round of 115 gr Aguila, formerly my favorite brand of range ammo. It simply wouldn't chamber in my P30 despite repeated attempts. Aside from that, the only ammo problems I've run into in the past couple of years have been some hard primers from Brown Bear, and that doesn't really bother me since I stopped using Brown Bear in 2,000 round challenges.

[ArgentFix]

I don't think the OP's data set is sufficient to support strong conclusions. It looks like each gun had one problem with one round of ammo, and without knowing the denominator for each gun/ammo combination, it's impossible to interpret. Regardless, a frequency of 6 out of 20,000 is pleasantly rare.

Oops I missed a couple since I was only looking specifically for FTEx, FTEj, and FTFeed:
P226 .40: 1 dud primer (3 attempts) Remington UMC 180gr #L40SW3BP (https://pistol-forum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=L40SW3BP) loose packed
P226 .40: Several light strikes Independence Aluminum 180gr although this worked fine in M&P. All fired 2nd attempt.

And of course I had many other stoppages not the fault of the ammo: A 357 SIG project gone bad, a CZ SP-01 with chronic issues, aluminum casings in stepped chambers, stuff like that. But no, by no stretch an exhaustive or scientific study :) So far 2019 is less lucky, partly because I "enjoy" trying different brands and types of ammo:

M&P 2.0 .40: Several FTFeed (crashing on feed ramp) Fiocchi 170gr "Range Dynamics". Unsurprising, I frequently felt a "hitch" when slingshotting first round.
92fs: Winchester 115gr "Service Grade" 1 casing stuck in chamber, a first for this gun. Interestingly, this stuff isn't labelled +P but includes an overpressure warning on the box. Felt snappy.
M&P 2.0 .40: Magtech 180gr, several FTFeed (ramp crashes) when slingshotting but no problems cycling.