How Important is Pre Travel Weight to a “Good” Trigger

[Doc_Glock]

I have been thinking about what makes certain guns triggers more forgiving from a pure shooting perspective. This has nothing to do with “safety”, etc.

I noticed, I tend to shoot 6-8lb DA pulls about the best for pure, slow accuracy. I also noticed that these pulls have no discernible wall at the end of pre travel, you just keep increasing the pressure, the trigger moves and it goes off without warning.

I have no experience with tuned practical shooting competition or bullseye guns, so won’t comment, but I think they have pretty light triggers.

I measure a bunch of guns to find out how heavy the wall is after pre travel is taken up:

Tuned CZ 75SA: 0.5 lbs
G19X: 1.5 lbs
Cent Tac with TJIB: 1.5 lbs
P30L: 1.5 lbs
G45: 1.5 lbs
VP9: 1.5 lbs
Stock LTT: 2.0 lbs
G48: 2.0 lbs
G4G19: 2.0 lbs
G3G26: 2.0 lbs
G43: 2.0 lbs

P2000 V2 LEM: 3.0lbs

Two stand outs: the CZ 75 and the LEM. I haven’t shot that CZ more than once, but I got 500 aggregate personal record that stood for two years the time I shot it. I have always shot the LEM worse than other triggers.

Makes you think. It also makes me think that increasing pre travel weight to the LEM is the way to go to make it better shooting, not decreasing that weight. Increasing pre travel weight will increase overall force, but decrease the or minimize that 3 lb wall as a percentage of that force.

I think this measurement also explains why the G5 Glock triggers are universally liked
better than prior generations. It may also explain a bit of why the VP9 is such a forgiving gun.

Interested in thoughts?

[Alpha Sierra]

Not sure I understand.

What do you call "pre-travel"? Is that trigger movement that has no effect on sear engagement? If so, then it doesn't matter to me.

My CZs have some, both in DA and in SA. It's so light that I don't notice it.

My S&W revolvers have no "pre-travel" at all. Any movement of the trigger immediately starts affecting something to do with dropping the hammer. Their single actions have no travel at all, or at least none that my finger can detect. Very crisp.

[Doc_Glock]

Not sure I understand.

What do you call "pre-travel"? Is that trigger movement that has no effect on sear engagement? If so, then it doesn't matter to me.

My CZs have some, both in DA and in SA. It's so light that I don't notice it.

My S&W revolvers have no "pre-travel" at all. Any movement of the trigger immediately starts affecting something to do with dropping the hammer. Their single actions have no travel at all, or at least none that my finger can detect. Very crisp.

I guess pre travel is an imprecise term. First stage take up is perhaps better? The weight of the trigger before it hits “the wall” prior to break.

Good DAO revolvers have essentially no wall, just heavy travel all the way through.

I am open to suggestions to change the title.

Also, I pressed send prematurely on my post so I added the trigger weights above.

[Alpha Sierra]

I see.

In that case, my two CZs feel a little different. My 75BD has no wall due to the spring changes and amount of internal polishing I've done to it. Feels almost like a revolver. My P-01 has a slight "wall" but I ignore it and don't focus on it. I work all DA triggers the same, adjusting the force I press it with as needed to continue moving it at a constant rate. Never stage them.

I think the common term for what you describe is stacking. None of my revolvers "stack" or have a "wall", they just roll through.

[JHC]

IDK.

I've got two questions that have me puzzled.

How did you find the "wall" on the G45? Its (and the 19X) rolling trigger doesn't present me with the stark "wall" that my older Glocks do. On the 43 however, it's noticeable.


How do you measure just the wall?



Now to you your central question - what makes a trigger forgiving (which is a very good question); lately I'm of the mind that how clean it finally breaks/fires is a pretty big deal. More so than take up. "Clean" being without a feeling of a dragging/sliding final break.

[CraigS]

Yes, how do you measure the wall? Measure the overall pull weight to fire the gun, measure the pull weight to just prior to hitting the wall and subtract it from the overall weight?

[Doc_Glock]

Yes, how do you measure the wall? Measure the overall pull weight to fire the gun, measure the pull weight to just prior to hitting the wall and subtract it from the overall weight?

Exactly.

[Doc_Glock]

IDK.

I've got two questions that have me puzzled.

How did you find the "wall" on the G45? Its (and the 19X) rolling trigger doesn't present me with the stark "wall" that my older Glocks do. On the 43 however, it's noticeable.


How do you measure just the wall?



Now to you your central question - what makes a trigger forgiving (which is a very good question); lately I'm of the mind that how clean it finally breaks/fires is a pretty big deal. More so than take up. "Clean" being without a feeling of a dragging/sliding final break.

I just put the trigger gauge on, noted where the pre travel was taken up and noted again where it broke. It isn’t terribly precise, but within 1/4 lb.

The G45 has a wall, it’s just kind of mushy and I think that is part of why I like the trigger so much compared to the crisper prior generations.

[GJM]

This could be an interesting topic.

My first reaction was here goes Eric focusing on hardware minutia, when he should be focusing on technique minutia. I still believe that it is only when he realizes the main factor in how he shoots different pistols is his ability, not hardware, that is when he will start making big progress.

That said, there are differences in how pistols shoot, and certainly trigger characteristics is a big part of that. Other factors are the grip of the pistol, the weight of the pistol, and how the pistol behaves in recoil.

In terms of trigger, I think you can tell a good trigger by feel, but it is harder to determine how a trigger is by measurement. I have also found that I need to work different triggers in different ways. For example, when I left the P09 last summer, I couldn’t press a Glock trigger the same, because of the Glock trigger’s amount of travel between wall and break, and had to learn a different way of working the Glock trigger.

[feudist]

This could be an interesting topic.

My first reaction was here goes Eric focusing on hardware minutia, when he should be focusing on technique minutia. I still believe that it is only when he realizes the main factor in how he shoots different pistols is his ability, not hardware, that is when he will start making big progress.

That said, there are differences in how pistols shoot, and certainly trigger characteristics is a big part of that. Other factors are the grip of the pistol, the weight of the pistol, and how the pistol behaves in recoil.

In terms of trigger, I think you can tell a good trigger by feel, but it is harder to determine how a trigger is by measurement. I have also found that I need to work different triggers in different ways. For example, when I left the P09 last summer, I couldn’t press a Glock trigger the same, because of the Glock trigger’s amount of travel between wall and break, and had to learn a different way of working the Glock trigger.

Do you rotate pistols on a particular schedule or is it just motivated by interest?

Also, I don't recall you writing about 1911s, do you not shoot those?

[JBP55]

I am only interested in the trigger pull weight as I press the trigger until it fires rather than removing pre travel prior to firing the pistol.

[Doc_Glock]

This could be an interesting topic.

My first reaction was here goes Eric focusing on hardware minutia, when he should be focusing on technique minutia. I still believe that it is only when he realizes the main factor in how he shoots different pistols is his ability, not hardware, that is when he will start making big progress.


When I posted the topic I actually wondered how long it would take you to make a pithy comment to this effect:)

I am under no delusions about what is required to make big progress, but I find the hardware interesting.

I am sort of interested in making the LEM more shootable. Or at least figuring out why it is such a difficult trigger to master.

[Doc_Glock]

My theory here is that an abrupt wall type trigger break with a rapid increase in pull weight across the break is generally a bad thing and leads to flinching.

And that the total pull weight is less important than having a small delta across the break for encouraging good shooting.

My experience with 1911s, while limited, showed that I flinched them considerably with a stock 4.5-5lb trigger and a crisp break.

I hope JonInWA will comment.

[Alpha Sierra]

Why obsess over this minutiae?

No trigger will ever be "perfect". Do to the work to master whatever you grab and then stacking or the wall won't matter one bit.

[GJM]

Do you rotate pistols on a particular schedule or is it just motivated by interest?

Also, I don't recall you writing about 1911s, do you not shoot those?

I pretty much was a dedicated 1911 guy until I moved to Alaska in 2002, and quickly found out that cold, wet hands and gloves did not get along with small trigger guards, small controls and short triggers. I still have a lifetime supply of high quality 1911 pistols, in case I get the itch again.

There is no rhyme or reason as to when I switch, except that I think I have a good reason when I do it. When I was not competing, I was more interested in shooting different guns, but now that I am seriously, I only shoot one type gun in competition and try to EDC a version of it too, so all my effort goes into increasing skills.

[M2CattleCo]

I am sort of interested in making the LEM more shootable. Or at least figuring out why it is such a difficult trigger to master.

Don't bother. I've had the best by Lazy wolf and it felt exactly the same as spring change and it had a very lethargic reset.

LEM is difficult because it has a long pull like a DA, but a wall&break just a little crisper than a Glock. In the time it takes to work through the trigger you begin to question your decision to mess with this trigger and that leads contemplating the meaning of life and about the time you're trying to decide what to eat for dinner the wall jolts you out the daydream and before you can shake it off and find the front sight, the dang thing has already gone off.

[GJM]

Don't bother. I've had the best by Lazy wolf and it felt exactly the same as spring change and it had a very lethargic reset.

LEM is difficult because it has a long pull like a DA, but a wall&break just a little crisper than a Glock. In the time it takes to work through the trigger you begin to question your decision to mess with this trigger and that leads contemplating the meaning of life and about the time you're trying to decide what to eat for dinner the wall jolts you out the daydream and before you can shake it off and find the front sight, the dang thing has already gone off.

This made me giggle.

[feudist]

People like to discuss the technical details of pistols and shooting. This seems like a good place to do that.

Motion to rename this Pistol Minutia Forum.

All in favor?

[RJ]

LEM is difficult because it has a long pull like a DA, but a wall&break just a little crisper than a Glock. In the time it takes to work through the trigger you begin to question your decision to mess with this trigger and that leads contemplating the meaning of life and about the time you're trying to decide what to eat for dinner the wall jolts you out the daydream and before you can shake it off and find the front sight, the dang thing has already gone off.

Add Mr. Givens watching me with a timer, and this sums up my LEM experience accurately.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JHC]

When I posted the topic I actually wondered how long it would take you to make a pithy comment to this effect:)

I am under no delusions about what is required to make big progress, but I find the hardware interesting.

I am sort of interested in making the LEM more shootable. Or at least figuring out why it is such a difficult trigger to master.

Well that rascal has many a post opining how something about the Glock hardware makes it easy for many to shoot ok but tricky to shoot at a very high level. ;)

[MGW]

Well that rascal has many a post opining how something about the Glock hardware makes it easy for many to shoot ok but tricky to shoot at a very high level. ;)

I thought that was my line?

[MGW]

Enel what kind of shooting would you use as your baseline to determine how good/forgiving a trigger is? I think I know the answer but want to make sure I’m not assuming anything.

What trigger(s) do you find the most forgiving for you?

Do you think overtravel has anything to do with it? In my opinion overtravel has more to do with it than take up but Glocks don’t have much overtravel so maybe I’m wrong about that.

[Doc_Glock]

Enel what kind of shooting would you use as your baseline to determine how good/forgiving a trigger is? I think I know the answer but want to make sure I’m not assuming anything.

What trigger(s) do you find the most forgiving for you?

Do you think overtravel has anything to do with it? In my opinion overtravel has more to do with it than take up but Glocks don’t have much overtravel so maybe I’m wrong about that.

Triggers I seem to shoot well:

That CZ75SA. May have something to do with the gun being heavier than the trigger pull though.

HK P30 DA/SA

Glocks, especially Gen 5.

I like the Advanced Supertest as a measure of performance, and any gun I can score over 290 on the AST will usually put up a 98+ on 25 yard slow fire.

I think over travel is may be important and may be part of the reason my single handed shooting with Beretta 92s suffers.

I am going to experiment with heavier trigger return springs in my remaining LEM gun and see if I can improve my performance.

[Bucky]

I think the vast difference between the initial trigger pull and the break on the LEM is what I don’t like about them. Has a “sloppy” feel to it.

[JonInWA]

I have several thoughts on pre-travel trigger weight.

First, in regards to SFA pistols: My experiences and preferences are with Glock and HK (VP); with Glocks, the pull intrinsically tends to be a bit heavier, with a discernible wall, and a crisp break, and an extremely short reset. On my HK VP40, the pull is a bit lighter, with a softer wall, and a slightly longer reset. Both are examples of what I'd call a two-stage pull, comprised of the initial take-up followed by the wall/break. On Glocks, this can be transformed into a heavier, single stage pull with a more discernible reset via the substitution of a NY1 or NY2 spring instead of the coil trigger spring. On Gen4 Glocks, I really like the feel of the OEM coil spring set-up, while on Gen 3 Glocks, I modify the pull on individual Glocks to my preference, based on my feel and index with a given Glock (I use only OEM Glock components for such action mods).

Given both platforms, I find that I shoot the HK VP a bit more naturally, accurately and faster. However, given the nature of it's triggerpull characteristics, I thing for most people, especially casual users and less trained, a Glock is a better duty choice, because of the slightly heavier pull and more discernible wall prior to the break.

Second, on hammer-fired pistols: In the past year or so, while I have others, the two platforms that I've heavily committed to and concentrated on are my Beretta 92D (with action mods with Wilson Combat components) and my HK P30L, originally in V1 (light) LEM, now in V1.5 LEM. The Beretta has abou a 6 - 6.5 lb triggerpull as modded, with a very long reset, but the pull is exceptionally smooth, and the gun is extremely accurate. Due to the gun's overall length and somewhat heavier weight, combined with the long trggerpull distance, I find that accurate single-handed firing is a bit of a challenge, especially weak-handed firing.

With the HK, I really liked the LEM concept, but found the V1 LEM to be a challenge, due to the very light initial take-up, followed by the abrupt change in pull weight/characteristics when the wall was reached. Here's what I had done by HK to change that, and it only took one spring to do so:

First, my utmost appreciation to everyone that I worked with at HK on this-Customer Service Reps Tommy and Beth, and Armorers Ryan and Daniel. They were unfailingly polite, professional and genuinely interested and uniformly supportive in my quest-and that covers about a month of repeated calls and detailed discussions. And after this resolution, they stressed if I needed to revisit or go deeper, they were there for me. THAT'S superb customer service and aftermarket support-literally some of the best in the business I've encountered. Oh, and one other thing-the pistol was shipped to HK on Monday, and they had it back to me on Thursday. HK also removed some residual movement that remained with the Small backstrap at the top of the tang where it joined the frame (it was of no real operational consequence, but a bit irritating, and HK was happy to resolve it; apparently there may be some minor play due to the Small backstrap mold, or possibly incurred during the backstrap plastic's curing after molding.

Equally, thanks to Coyote41 here and TooSixy at the HK Pro forum, whose advice (and patience) over the past month or so as I dived deep into improving my V1 LEM was invaluable.

So-Where did I end up? My goal was to have a more "shootable" HK P30L V1 LEM, but without sacrificing the threat-management tenants of the LEM action-particularly the long pull length before firing. More shootable for me I determined (with much help from others, definitely including on this thread here) was to be a heavier, more resistant trigger pull, with the desire for the triggerpull characteristics to be transformed if possible from a dual stage (initial/wall-break) into more of a single-stage pull, with a more continuous/unbroken pull from inception to break. In other words, mitigating against the initial "flying through the air" initial pull (with its inherent lack of feel/ tactile feedback, then being met with "hitting the wall" towards the end of the long pull process. I am satisfied with both the overall LEM triggerpull length and the reset as it comes from HK. My premise is that this set-up will serve well as a threat-management tool, but be more shootable for other venues, such as IDPA. Yeah, I want my cake and be able to eat it too...

My P30L V1 came with standard-weight springs uniformly for the hammer spring, the trigger return/rebound spring, and the firing pin block spring. At this point, after much discussion and input from multiple parties, HK only needed to change one spring to meet my goal (or to take the first good-faith stab at it): the standard weight trigger return/rebound spring was replaced with the newer HK medium-weight trigger rebound/return spring (234773). Coyote41 has additionally provided me with the lighter-weight firing pin block spring (209296), which I may experiment with later; I gave HK a free hand in putting one in mine when it was there, but they felt that there simply wouldn't be a discernible benefit from it, and chose to keep the OEM standard-weight FPBS (209962) in place. I may experiment with it in the future (thanks again, Coyote41).

Dry fire with the new set-up reveals that the medium-weight TRS has indeed favorably (for me, at least) changed the triggerpull characteristics, making it somewhat similar to that on my Beretta 92D DAO, upgraded with Wilson Combat improved triggerbar and springs. The triggerpull feels to be about 6 to 6.5 lbs., (very similar to that on my upgraded 92D) and the weight gives me a much improved triggerpull feel, in that more weight/resistance is provided, giving, at least to me, more control throughout the triggerpull process. The differentiation between the initial pull and the wall is significantly muted. I'm impressed, and plan on running the pistol in next Saturday's IDPA match.

Essentially, I have a bit of a hybrid LEM between V1 and V2, with some of the characteristics of the V4/V4.1 (but without the triggerpull shortening of the 4.1, which is somewhat expensive, and requires more parts, for reportedly incremental results). Call mine with the medium-weight TRS a (and otherwise standard-weight FPBS and HS) a V1.5, perhaps.

I subsequently competed in a local 7-stage IDPA match with the P30L with the new medium trigger return spring (TRS). This was my first live-fire with it, but I had a week of concentrated daily dryfiring.

While my overall match score placement was fairly low, due to my relatively slow stage completion times (part of which is getting used to the nuances of the new pull, part due to the intrinsic nature of the LEM action, most of it due to natural slowness on my part...sigh), my accuracy was tied with my second best IDPA lowest number of points down since I started shooting shooting IDPA in 2007. It was also by far the best accuracy results with the P30L to date, and equaled/tied my best IDPA match accuracy with my VP40.

Key take-outs and perceptions: (and keep in mind that these are for me, applicability towards you might well vary)

1. The medium TRS did exactly what I hoped: it provided more tactile feel throughout the entire triggerpull, from inception to break, and provided a more natural, less abrupt segue when the wall was hit.

2. The tendency for vertical stringing that Dagga Boy/Darryl discussed with LEM was effectively eliminated, as the new medium TRS seems to make the entire triggerpull a continuous/single-stage pull-through its entirety.

3. Reset is unaffected, regarding both reset distance and feel.

4. Overall triggerpull length is unaffected by the new TRS (unlike the 4.1 LEM, which slightly shortens the triggerpull distance {shortening the initial take-up distance prior to the wall being reached}).

5. Shooting with the "V1.5" LEM was much, much more natural than with the OEM V1 LEM. I was able to concentrate more on target acquisition and prioritization (index and sights) with triggerpull naturally, and seemingly seamlessly occurring as necessary. For me, that's huge-and a huge win in and of itself.

In short, the medium TRS "LEM V1.5" is a win for me. I was naturally able to make successive headshots (and with very tight 2-shot groups), both at medium and short distances. While one match/event does not provide anything approximating a methodological scientific analysis, it certainly provides significant confirmation for me. I feel totally comfortable in deploying it for duty, and will run it in at least one, if not two February matches, and for the upcoming 2-3 months without any further changes/modifications (with a concurrent daily dryfire program) to see if continued use verify my initial extremely favorable impressions and results.

Conclusions to date: Some triggerpull weight and feel that it provides throughout the triggerpull travel process throughout the ENTIRE triggerpull is extremely important-much more than than trying to have a light pull. My initial thought when I got into LEM was that a light pull comparable to the pul weight of my SFA guns would be ideal-empirically, I found this not to be the case, that more weight was needed to provide adequate tactile feel and feedback for the best trigger control and results, at least for me; YMMV.

Best, Jon

[JHC]

For the most part either a Glock or 1911 trigger may be most shootable based on which is getting my emphasis. I've shot more consistent accuracy pure 1911. Best hitting at speed has been leaning 19X/G45, but . . .that's what I've been shooting mostly for some months. Yet I still think it holds a lesson as my years tracking certain drills shows me running PR level for 7 yard speed stuff with them.

But even within Glocks I'm hitting differences. GJM has argued the merits of not staging a shot at the wall but don't stop the continuous movement. I noted the point but didn't heed the advice as at the time I was really happy with hits staging at precision (at speed we don't stage of course). And cause I was shooting a lot of 1911 then and that's a staged SA pull by nature and KKM barrelled Gen 3s.

With the 19X and G45 I'm not digging the staging style. At all. His earlier point now resonates. I haven't seen pretty 5 shot slow fire groups like a KKM in a Gen 3 or 1911 but under a time constraint that kept me moving it was very good for such tasks.


Today having worked so much seeing what I could do with my G48 which had a wall I could stage to, it's confused me a bit shooting the 19X Slowfire precision. (sigh, long sigh)

I think I've got it figured out. ;)

[MGW]

I think I remember P.E. Kelley talking about the speed of trigger movement being as important than anything else. One speed from beginning to end and the same speed during the reset. My personal experience is I do my best shooting when I’m moving the trigger as he advocates. It doesn’t matter if I’m shooting groups (my nemesis), accuaracy at speed, or pure speed shooting.

This really makes me want to spend time with a DA only pistol. I have revolvers but it’s a pain resetting the press to load 38 and I’m almost out. Factory 38 is more expensive than 9mm too. Would be easier to find a true DA only pistol somewhere.

[JonInWA]

GreggW, my recommendations for a good DA only pistol without breaking the bank would be a Beretta 92D/92D Centurion or one of the Smith & Wesson 3rd Generation metal-frame DAOs. Both platforms have eminently usable triggers out of the box, and the Berettas in particular can be further tuned with excellent recently available aftermarket upgrade components. Best, Jon

[OlongJohnson]

I think the vast difference between the initial trigger pull and the break on the LEM is what I don’t like about them. Has a “sloppy” feel to it.

A V1 USP trigger feels spongy to me in DA compared to a classic Sig trigger, if I go back to back. I think it's just flex in the parts, maybe the polymer frame. I don't notice it when shooting.

[Bill]

I think this concept is precisely what led TLG to his particular LEM spring arrangement: Heavier TRS gives more feedback on the take-up, while lighter FPBS and Hammer Spring clean up the final break. You also get a much more lively trigger reset, which speeds up splits, and encourages resetting the trigger under recoil.

I've been shooting my V7 (heavy LEM) USP and V1 (lite LEM) P30L together in the last few range sessions. I was surprised how much more I liked the heavier pull of the USP, but I did. The entire stroke feels more taught and "present", and I think adding necessary pressure to the pretravel encourages the strong hand to apply even gripping pressure earlier, and discourages milking the trigger.