Convenience store assault.

[JodyH]

Interesting case study for the P-F class.
Convenience store assault (http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/broward/fort-lauderdale/fl-gas-station-patron-beaten-20120308,0,6418852.story?utm_medium=referral&utm_source=pulsenews)
My initial thought is as soon as the guy became animated I'd have backed away, set my purchase down and walked out of the store.
That's easy to say from here, toe to toe with the guy it might be a little harder to disengage.
The guy was looking for a fight and I don't think verbal de-escalation was going to work.
I don't see this being a good OC situation, he's too close and too amped up.
The good thing is, the guy was throwing some crappy punches and leaving himself wide open.
The bad thing is he looked like he had a little roid rage and might be tough to handle on the ground.
One of these days this guy's going to run into a "stand your ground" victim and get himself justifiably shot.

Discuss...

[zacbol]

I don't think I would have had the presence of mind to walk away (sadly), but once that guy threw the first haymaker, it would have been a good opportunity to practice the time I've spent on combatives. I think a few palm strikes and/or elbows to the face would have convinced him he did not *really* want to fight. That said, who the hell knows how it would have turned out? The quote from guy who was assaulted is just sad "I didn't want to fight back because that can get you killed." Okay, well, then you get to have your teeth knocked out. Have fun with that.

[barstoolguru]

once the beating went past a certain point (the first punch with no retaliation) then it can clear that the aggressor is just looking to hurt him and at that point it is OK for the victim to defend himself by more than an equal means (fearing for your life)

[Zhurdan]

Gatoraide ain't worth it. I'd have left after the first "flinch" the guy made towards the assaulted dude.

Unfortunately, I fear that even walking away wouldn't have ended it. The turd was looking for a fight and probably would have followed the other guy out if he went to leave. Assumptions of course, but I've seen similar events down in SLC when fueling up. Luckily it was not to me and I was at a distance, but some kids were either on a dare or just stupid. They started pushing and shoving what appeared to be a random dude. Paid at the pump so I stopped fueling and got the hell outta dodge. Couldn't name a cross street in that stupid city so I just drove on and fueled up the rest of the way elsewhere.

[secondstoryguy]

The attacker was picking on a easy target that he felt he could beat. If it was someone that was bigger, locked on, more verbal, etc. I don't believe the guy would have engaged. The attacker wasnt that great of a fighter...he would have been toast if that guy had had an ounce of training.

[zacbol]

Oh, don't get me wrong. Walking away would have been the right/smart thing to do. I just know myself too well to suggest I would have been able to disengage from the Monkey Dance. I would have been enraged he was yelling at me for no reason and argued back, then when he threw a punch I would have attacked him back as a conditioned response. I wish I had more ability to pull out of it because it's a real problem in these situations. I'm working on it--probably for ever.

[JodyH]

Lucky for me I'm really good at walking away.
If I feel cornered or trapped though I go from 0-100 in an instant and have a hard time disengaging.
I have a very out of control temper but on a loooooong fuse.
That's why I like studying these types of confrontations and trying to find the early out.
Knowing your personal trigger moments helps you avoid or embrace them as appropriate.

[JHC]

This is one of the "gifts" of carrying a firearm. For me at least. I find it easy to walk away and disengage from testosterone contests and don't give a fig for taunts etc. Boy that black T-shirt guy with the mouth seemed incompetent. He couldn't be pulling that schtick off against many willing and able. Must have read that he found his perfect mark. I imagine he bragged that night to somebody about all the a#$ he kicked.

[Al T.]

Two dummies occupying the same space. Fail.

Guy in the yellow shirt should have backed up as soon as the first combative words were spoken. Space and a can of Raid would have been his friend.

[JHC]

Two dummies occupying the same space. Fail.

Guy in the yellow shirt should have backed up as soon as the first combative words were spoken. Space and a can of Raid would have been his friend.

Does that work better than OC? ;)

[Wendell]

Balancing Dangers
An Interview with John Farnam (http://armedcitizensnetwork.org/our-journal/253-february-2012)<http://armedcitizensnetwork.org/our-journal/253-february-2012>

[TCinVA]

The police are excellent at teaching loudmouths that they can't threaten violence consequence free. Letting them do so is usually the superior strategy.

[Coyotesfan97]

That was the equivalent of "you made me spill my drink" in a bar. The guy in black was looking for a fight and he found his victim with the yellow shirt guy. When it became clear yellow wasn't going to react violently the assault commenced.

[UNK]

Are stun guns legal? The kind with darts like the cops have? Perfect reason to keep one under the counter. And a set of cuffs. What an idiot.

[jmjames]

The guy in yellow had every opportunity to not get beat up. Is he responsible for the nut going berserk on him? Of course not. But he made the cardinal sin of continuing to act not intimidated, and his bluff was called much to his chagrin. If someone is going to sit there telling you to shut your mouth and they are threatening to hurt you, you had better get out of there or be prepared to protect and defend yourself, or at the very least, SHUT YOUR MOUTH. This guy continued to talk back to someone who was clearly taking a "you talkin' to me?" attitude.

That said, I'm not sure if pulling a gun in that scenario would have improved it much. Keep in mind the distance, the attacker would have taken that gun away from him in a heartbeat and turned it around on him.

J.Ja

[JodyH]

That said, I'm not sure if pulling a gun in that scenario would have improved it much. Keep in mind the distance, the attacker would have taken that gun away from him in a heartbeat and turned it around on him.
I have news for you... this is an excellent example of what kind of distances these situations happen at.
If you carry a gun, you better get enough training that you're competent drawing, retaining and shooting in situations very similar to this one.
Take all the preliminary back and forth pre-fight posturing out of this situation and start at the first punch being thrown.
If you carry, you better be ready to fight with your gun after being sucker punched and while your opponent is actively attacking you (probably with a weapon).

As to this exact scenario, the guy in the yellow shirt would be the victim even if he was armed with a gun.
He completely dropped the ball in seeing the fight coming and he had zero will to fight once it started.
HE would have had his gun taken away from him.
Not because of the distances involved, but because he lacked the will to inflict violence of any kind on his attacker.

[UNK]

I have news for you... this is an excellent example of what kind of distances these situations happen at.
If you carry a gun, you better get enough training that you're competent drawing, retaining and shooting in situations very similar to this one.
Take all the preliminary back and forth pre-fight posturing out of this situation and start at the first punch being thrown.
If you carry, you better be ready to fight with your gun after being sucker punched and while your opponent is actively attacking you (probably with a weapon).

As to this exact scenario, the guy in the yellow shirt would be the victim even if he was armed with a gun.
He completely dropped the ball in seeing the fight coming and he had zero will to fight once it started.
HE would have had his gun taken away from him.
Not because of the distances involved, but because he lacked the will to inflict violence of any kind on his attacker.

Pride will come before the fall.
If you are not going to fight, run away. If you don't want to fight, run away.

[Ed L]

Some people don't recognize a situation being as dangerous as it is, or with the potential to explode the way the one in the video did because they've never experienced anything like it before and are completely unfamiliar with the blatant warning signs.

Even with training, some people just go into denial when confronted with a potentially violent situation and believe that they can walk or talk their way out of it, often until they are hit.

This is the value of taking courses, studying news reports of crime and assaults, watching you-tube videos of such, and participating in forums like this. If you do find yourself in a remotely similar situation, you will hopefully recognize it much sooner and act quicker.

In describing the victim the newspaper wrote:

Stocker, a businessman who helps mediate disputes between yacht dealers and owners, found his skill set was of no use that day.

He explained in a phone interview Thursday — while on his way to an oral surgeon — that he didn't fight back in fear of ending up in jail or being killed.

"You know there are people out there who are like this. You don't want to get in a situation that can get you killed," he said. "You don't know if they are going to shoot you or stab you. You just hope for the lesser evil."

[Shellback]

Some people don't recognize a situation being as dangerous as it is, or with the potential to explode the way the one in the video did because they've never experienced anything like it before and are completely unfamiliar with the blatant warning signs.

I'm with ed on this and think it amounted to the guy being a fish out of water. He was caught completely off guard and out of his element.

ETA - We've had some discussion on key indicators in the past and MUC (Managing Unknown Contacts). Anybody notice the perp look away right before he sucker punched the guy?

[LOKNLOD]

Stocker, a businessman who helps mediate disputes between yacht dealers and owners, found his skill set was of no use that day.

Ya don't say? This guy probably deals with lots of hot-headed, loud-mouthed folks on a day to day basis that get in heated arguments over nonsense. The kind of folks who own yachts, who I'd imagine, no matter how hot they get, are probably a relatively civilized bunch compared to the clientele that beats up random folks at a stop-n-rob. He probably thought he could handle it, that it couldn't go that far south, because in his frame of reference, no matter how mad Biff and Buffy get they've still got a lot to lose and aren't going to jail for a yacht-warranty beatdown.

[Johnkard]

Honestly I think that was a good example of a "Run Away" scenario, combined with a victim who was too confused by "Is this really happening to me?" syndrome to react properly.

Granted, I'm not sure I could have held myself back in a situation like that. After a swing or two, I probably would have put my foot in his gut (even with 14 years of martial arts background telling me to just ignore it and GTFO...)



Anybody going to comment on the lack of action from the other patrons? Just because they weren't the ones being targeted, does that mean they are excused to sit back on their laurels and pass resolution of the problem on to the "proper" channels? I saw a whole room full of people dissipate like a flock of frightened pigeons in the face of some awkward mildly crazy guy clumsily beating on one of their own. THAT is a lot scarier than the fact that the one guy went a bit nuts.

What would you have done were you in the store during that particular confrontation to maintain the peace without unnecessary escalation?

[fixer]

If I was a third party there I'd barely have the interest in watching the outcome. Two guys throwing down in a convenience story is nothing new or particularly interesting.

If I was the guy in yellow, however, I would have made the decent human being move to comply with the aggressor's wishes to not be so close.

If the aggressor, the guy in black shirt, kept it up I'd feel like knocking his teeth out and then use them for jewelry. However I'd more than likely let him know I'm feeling threatened and that I don't like that one bit. At the same time I'd be making moves to an exit trying to watch him.

If he pursued and threw the first lunge in my direction, I'd draw and let him know that he is gonna die in a convenience store today.

[Al T.]

As regards the Raid comment, several years back there was some bozo with a knife in a big box store slashing folks. Out of curiosity, I wandered around in a local one to see what sort of improvised weapons were available to defend my self if needed. The answer was "lots". In yellow shirts case, a simple side step to get some sort of aerosol product ("Pam" even) would have given him something viable to create space. Heck, a cup of hot coffee could have worked.



Anybody going to comment on the lack of action from the other patrons?

Add me to the list of folks who won't get between two guys engaged in mutual combat, unless friends or family are involved. Niece, nephew and I evacuated a store post haste a couple of years back when two guys started rolling. Yes I had OC and a handgun, but frankly even if I was alone, I'd of left. Lady or kids involved, different story.

[Tamara]

Watching that video, and specifically paying attention to Stocker's body language, not only did he not do anything to get away, he actively egged things on and bowed up at the guy, then acted all shocked and butthurt when the dude who said he was going to hit him... ...hit him.

"Back off six inches!"
"Hey, cool, whatever." Step back from belligerent jerk and let him go pick a fight with someone else. End of scenario. No bat belt required.

[JodyH]

The younger black guy who walked in and clapped his hands... he saw the fight coming after 10 seconds of observation, and hauled ass out of the store when it started.
Want to bet he's seen this dance before? I bet he ran out so fast because he's seen these same situations escalate to shots fired.

[JodyH]

Watching that video, and specifically paying attention to Stocker's body language, not only did he not do anything to get away, he actively egged things on and bowed up at the guy, then acted all shocked and butthurt when the dude who said he was going to hit him... ...hit him.

"Back off six inches!"
"Hey, cool, whatever." Step back from belligerent jerk and let him go pick a fight with someone else. End of scenario. No bat belt required.
He initially backed up, but then he kept talking.
I'm guessing his job as a mediator just wouldn't let him shut his mouth in the face of a dispute.

[jmjames]

I have news for you... this is an excellent example of what kind of distances these situations happen at.
If you carry a gun, you better get enough training that you're competent drawing, retaining and shooting in situations very similar to this one.
Take all the preliminary back and forth pre-fight posturing out of this situation and start at the first punch being thrown.
If you carry, you better be ready to fight with your gun after being sucker punched and while your opponent is actively attacking you (probably with a weapon).

As to this exact scenario, the guy in the yellow shirt would be the victim even if he was armed with a gun.
He completely dropped the ball in seeing the fight coming and he had zero will to fight once it started.
HE would have had his gun taken away from him.
Not because of the distances involved, but because he lacked the will to inflict violence of any kind on his attacker.

And this is exactly why I think that the number of situations that can be improved by using a gun are fewer than many who carry believe. The number of people who get the training to be able to handle this situation well are only a small percentage of the number of folks who carry. I am fairly certain that with the mindset that the yellow shirted fellow had, carrying a gun would have caused this situation to become worse than what it was. As others have pointed out, he kept egging the guy on.

I wish I had lived such a protected live that I could be 51 and never had to deal with a situation like this up until that point.

J.Ja

[Chuck Haggard]

The police are excellent at teaching loudmouths that they can't threaten violence consequence free. Letting them do so is usually the superior strategy.


And it is one of the very few perks of the job.

Black shirt guy is just another Saturday night drunk/asshole/jerk-off/bully/punk, lots and lots of those to be found wandering CONUS at certain times. He picked on yellow shirt guy BECAUSE he could see that dude wasn't going to do anything about it.

This coming Saturday the tard will be particularly strong with this demographic.

[peterb]

As regards the Raid comment, several years back there was some bozo with a knife in a big box store slashing folks. Out of curiosity, I wandered around in a local one to see what sort of improvised weapons were available to defend my self if needed. The answer was "lots". In yellow shirts case, a simple side step to get some sort of aerosol product ("Pam" even) would have given him something viable to create space. Heck, a cup of hot coffee could have worked.

Some insecticide sprays are organophosphates, the same class of chemicals used in GB and VX nerve agents. Don't know how rapidly consumer versions would affect a human, but there have been some ugly incidents with agricultural workers. Some of the wasp sprays fire a tight stream and can be aimed from outside contact distance.

More to the point, almost anything in the face could slow an attacker. Some of it -- like drain cleaner(lye) -- has effects that are horrific. The legal consequences would be ugly.

Walking away if you can seems a whole lot easier.

[JodyH]

And this is exactly why I think that the number of situations that can be improved by using a gun are fewer than many who carry believe. The number of people who get the training to be able to handle this situation well are only a small percentage of the number of folks who carry.
The more training you have, the less likely you are to find yourself in these situations... funny how that works.

[Sparks2112]

Oddly enough I had a situation similar to this recently that escalated to blows. Maybe I'll start a new thread.

[Al T.]

ADEE (IMHO) is a mindset that proves relevant time and again.

[Chuck Haggard]

Some insecticide sprays are organophosphates, the same class of chemicals used in GB and VX nerve agents. Don't know how rapidly consumer versions would affect a human, but there have been some ugly incidents with agricultural workers. Some of the wasp sprays fire a tight stream and can be aimed from outside contact distance.

More to the point, almost anything in the face could slow an attacker. Some of it -- like drain cleaner(lye) -- has effects that are horrific. The legal consequences would be ugly.

Walking away if you can seems a whole lot easier.


I would classify the use of wasp spray, and this is from seeing the aftermath of such assaults on the street, as deadly force. Seriously. You are getting into the area of "great bodily harm" when you spray people with that crap. A good hit to the eyes and they may be permanently blinded.

Oven cleaner is even worse.

Then, as noted, you run the risk of hitting bystanders and even getting yourself due to the variables of using such products indoors, or outdoors if the wind is not favorable.

Note that organophosphates are basically watered down versions of nerve gas.

[peterb]

I would classify the use of wasp spray, and this is from seeing the aftermath of such assaults on the street, as deadly force. Seriously. You are getting into the area of "great bodily harm" when you spray people with that crap. A good hit to the eyes and they may be permanently blinded.

Oven cleaner is even worse.


There's a lot of nasty stuff on the shelves. A coworker had a tiny drop of a caustic cleaner get past her eye protection, and only the immediate and prolonged irrigation of her eye saved her sight.

Caustics(strong bases, alkalines) can do more damage to tissue than acids. In simple terms, caustics tend to "liquify" proteins and keep penetrating. Acids tend to coagulate proteins so damage tends to be shallower.

[RoyGBiv]

What is ADEE?

Avoid
Disengage/de-escalate
Evade
Escape

[JDM]

Yellow had so many chances to STFU and/or leave that he didn't take it's startling.

Yellow also allowed Black, who can't fight worth a s---, to punch him many times, which was rather pathetic.

Looks like a classic case of two morons acting like morons.

[Byron]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w14IQB8yNNw

[Al T.]

Byron, cute but a slightly different set of circumstances there. :)

[Byron]

Byron, cute but a slightly different set of circumstances there. :)
Ha, of course. I agree with the various posters who have said, "Just walk away" in regards to the scenario in the OP. I just couldn't resist the temptation to insert a South Park homage to Lord Humungus, given that I thought the quote was so fitting.

Apologies if the contribution wasn't the right tone for the Mindset & Tactics forum.

[TCinVA]

It's perfectly reasonable advice, even if it is coming from cartoon characters.

Human beings are like icebergs: What you are seeing is only a very small portion of what is there. If what you're seeing from a human being is stupid, then odds are that below the surface it gets a hell of a lot worse. It could be the sort of stupid that tries to punch you in the face. Or it could be the sort of stupid that will go to the car and get a gun so they can kill you. (I'm not making that up. Somewhere out there is a video of a dude who gets ticked off that someone reached around him to pick up their paid-for items at a stop n rob and he gets a gun and starts shooting) You never know which until you've decided to go down the rabbit hole.

What you can know for sure, however, is that dealing with stupid people never...I repeat...never works out for you. If you aren't forced to be in proximity with an idiot either by circumstances or because you have a badge which confers special authority to beat the snot out of people who deserve to catch an ASP to the thigh, then just leave.

Not too far from me recently somebody got into a traffic dispute with somebody else and rather than let that nonsense go, one guy followed the other to the guy's house. Instead of getting there, realizing it was idiotic to have followed this person, and leaving, he instead hung around and drove by the house again. The dude who lived there came out with a weapon and some sort of tussle ensued and the end result is a shooting. Now the guy who followed the other guy is sitting in a jail cell and facing serious charges because apparently the authorities aren't really buying a self defense claim after you've followed somebody because you were pissed off at them in traffic.

Now I ask you, people: Who the hell needs that?

I'm sure in the moment both of those guys thought they were being awesome and manly and stuff, but when the smoke clears and one is in critical care and the other is sitting in an orange jumpsuit looking at the loss of his freedom, I'm betting both would like to go back in time and just walk the ***CENSORED*** away. It's awful hard to walk tall in an orange jumpsuit or a wheelchair.

If someone insists that wearing an orange jumpsuit in stir is the "manly" choice in that situation, then they're welcome to it. I'll just ignore the idiot in traffic, thanks.

In this life sometimes you will find yourself in bad situations that you have to claw your way out of. It sucks, but that's life. It's pure bone-headedness to go about inflicting them on yourself through stupidity.

[UNK]

then acted all shocked and butthurt



ROFLMAO !! 2 fn funny

[bcauz3y]

The victim failed to see multiple warning signs that the confrontation was about to turn physical.

In addition, he failed to take simple precautionary steps to diminish the impact in the case that it did turn violent.

Lots of fail all around.

[Tamara]

If someone insists that wearing an orange jumpsuit in stir is the "manly" choice in that situation, then they're welcome to it. I'll just ignore the idiot in traffic, thanks.

I can honestly say that I've maybe flipped someone off in traffic two or three times in the decade-plus since I've started religiously carrying a heater. It's a liberating feeling to be able to wave magnanimously at the guy and think "Hey, go on then, buddy; it's not worth it to get all bowed up over this..."

Let him have his win. Just walk away.

[jslaker]

Ya don't say? This guy probably deals with lots of hot-headed, loud-mouthed folks on a day to day basis that get in heated arguments over nonsense. The kind of folks who own yachts, who I'd imagine, no matter how hot they get, are probably a relatively civilized bunch compared to the clientele that beats up random folks at a stop-n-rob. He probably thought he could handle it, that it couldn't go that far south, because in his frame of reference, no matter how mad Biff and Buffy get they've still got a lot to lose and aren't going to jail for a yacht-warranty beatdown.

I found his attempt to appeal to the authority of the clearly disinterested store clerk interesting/amusing.

[Ed L]

What would you have done were you in the store during that particular confrontation to maintain the peace without unnecessary escalation?

On this forum we have the advantage of seeing the video from the beginning and viewing it over and over to be able to have an idea what is going on. We also have the luxury of reading other people's comments and interpretations.

If you were in the store when it happened you might not have had as clear of a view as the tape shows. Depending where you were in the store or on line, you might not have picked up what was happening until it was underway and thus had no idea of the nature of the dispute or how it started, or who started it, etc.

Also, it is very easy to watch the video in the comfort of your home and say, "hey, that would have been a perfect time for me to jump the attacker and execute a rear naked choke, but in real time and real life it isn't that easy.

I'm not going to say that I would *never* get involved if someone I didn't know was in danger of serious injury or death, but I would be very, very hesitant since I did not know the facts and don't know who is who or the nature of the dispute or fight, the relationship of the parties involved, etc.

Plus, I have to consider my own safety and the danger of getting hurt myself, as well as the danger that the police might arrive, find me in the midst of trying to help someone, and mistake me as an aggressor or participant. This could result in me getting tasered, clubbed, shot, or hurt in some other manner; or at the very least having a huge espensive legal issue to clear up.

The closest thing I had to getting involved was when I was at a nearby shopping center and noticed one of my neighbors getting verbally abused and threatened by someone. I stayed about 5 feet away, had my hand on my ASP key defender pepper spray with the safety off and said nothing and did not even let it be known that I knew my neighbor. Luckily, the thing blew over without anything going physical.

Here is a story about former MMA fighter and former UFC champ Guy Mezger getting involved in a situation outside of a store where he found a man abusing a woman. Guy outweighed the aggressor by a good 50 lbs, was several inches taller and certainly in better shape.

I know Guy, having briefly trained in his school many years ago, and also wrote an article on him for Black Belt Magazine. Guy could have taken the guy out with one good shot, but was trying to use disuasion and then minimum physical force, but wound up getting his hand sliced open by a knife that he didn't even see that the aggressor had pulled out, which the aggressor pulled after he was thrown down by Mezger and got up again. The guy who was abusing the woman probably had no idea who Guy Mezger was and probably would not have cared.

http://www.cagepotato.com/awesome-story-of-the-day-guy-mezger-saved-a-woman-from-knife-wielding-scumbag-last-month/

[Ed L]

As regards the Raid comment, several years back there was some bozo with a knife in a big box store slashing folks. Out of curiosity, I wandered around in a local one to see what sort of improvised weapons were available to defend my self if needed. The answer was "lots". In yellow shirts case, a simple side step to get some sort of aerosol product ("Pam" even) would have given him something viable to create space. Heck, a cup of hot coffee could have worked.

The trouble is that this would require planning before hand as an option in case he were to find himself in a situation like this. The person being attacked did not recognize the situation until it was too late and's mindset was such that he was afraid of going to jail for defending himself and also fearful that any defensive actions on his part might make things worse.

[Ed L]

I found his attempt to appeal to the authority of the clearly disinterested store clerk interesting/amusing.

The victim was in a situation he was not used to and had probably never encountered before so his mind was spinning through ways to try to stop it, all the while beliving that he woulc somehow walk or talk his way out of it. The victim clearly did not believe what was happening.

I don't know what the deal was with the aggressor--whether he was drunk, on drugs, mentally ill, or just beligerant. Initially he told the victim to back up whatever distance, but then his sole focus was on the victim talking and not shutting up. The more the victim spoke the more irate the aggressor got.

Again, (broken record time), this is a huge advantage of training and studying situations and videos that lead to crime and violence with a big emphasis on how they unfold and the earliest recognizable stage. This way it increases the liklihood of being able to spot it quicker if you find yourself in a similar situation.

Another thing I would urge people to do after encountering a suspicious or potentially violent situation that did not result in you drawing a weapon or engaging in any violence--always ask yourself whether you were honestly ready to do something or were you thinking you could walk or talk your way out of it and thus not in the best mental state to effectively defend yourself.

[Barbon]

Is there a news article on this? did the cops find the douchebag who did this I mean considering the amount of witnesses it would be hard not to get him.

Please someone tell me the cops arrested and charged his ass. Hate people like that.

[digiadaamore]

i will say that first flinch move was the point at which most people would have to of gotten the point and left, having said that i have a feeling if that had been one of us the the straight right to jaw area he left completely open would have been devastating. Im pretty sure i would have left before it got to that point, however if i had not i wouldnt have moved back when he pulled that little move, he left himself WIDE open and his momentum would have worked against him

[Tamara]

...however if i had not i wouldnt have moved back when he pulled that little move, he left himself WIDE open and his momentum would have worked against him
But what would you gain from that? I'm just not seeing any upside to remaining there once the dude in the black t-shirt turns around and gets rude. Sure, his little feint punch left him unbalanced and open to a slew of awesome kung-fu countermoves. He blusters, makes that little feint, you make your devastating response...

...and then the cops get called and nobody saw nothin', except for his sister-in-law who was just coming out of the beer cave and swears up and down you egged him on by calling him names, and...

There's just no upside to staying engaged in a situation like that.

[RoyGBiv]

nobody saw nothin', except for ....
.... the video cameras.

I'm with you on leaving before it comes to blows. There's no reason here to fight. My man parts are plenty big, I don't need to prove it to anyone.

Dude in yellow was giving back as good as he was getting, except that he wasn't prepared for the physical contact when it came. His retorts did nothing to dissuade physical contact, they served only to antagonize. If you have a stand your ground mindset, your better bet is to say nothing, or convey to Black Shirt that he'll be needing an ambulance if he continues on his tirade. Then be prepared to follow up should Black Shirt get physical. Double fail.

If I'm in Yellow shirts position, I'd have either shut up, made space and waited to see if the situation resolved itself or shut up and left the building. If I'm with family, I'd definitely have shut up and left, and been prepared to immediately defend if I'm followed.

[bdcheung]

ETA - We've had some discussion on key indicators in the past and MUC (Managing Unknown Contacts). Anybody notice the perp look away right before he sucker punched the guy?

Target glancing and weight shift are two big indicators I noticed about "Black T-Shirt". Though I didn't see any grooming, and I couldn't pick out a discernible "furtive movement of the hand toward the waist"

[Ed L]

Dude in yellow was giving back as good as he was getting, except that he wasn't prepared for the physical contact when it came.

I don't agree at all. The victim was trying to disengage or calm the situation, albeit with a bad choice of words and actions. Had he been 'giving back as good as he was getting' he would have been threatening the aggressor or name calling or otherwise keeping the ball rolling or escallating.

It was a very bizarre situation in that first he aggressor told the guy in yellow to back up 6" or something to that effect. Immediately after that the aggressor began focusing on having the victim shut the F#*& up, andf any further attempts by the victim to desescalate, albeit not very well, only angered the aggressor further. It was a very unusual situation that can be easily be analyzed on video from the comfort of your house but not so much in real time if you are on the receiving end of those threats and have no knowledge or experience with violence, it's precursors, and how it escalates.

[RoyGBiv]

I don't agree at all. The victim was trying to disengage or calm the situation, albeit with a bad choice of words and actions. Had he been 'giving back as good as he was getting' he would have been threatening the aggressor or name calling or otherwise keeping the ball rolling or escallating.

It was a very bizarre situation in that first he aggressor told the guy in yellow to back up 6" or something to that effect. Immediately after that the aggressor began focusing on having the victim shut the F#*& up, andf any further attempts by the victim to desescalate, albeit not very well, only angered the aggressor further. It was a very unusual situation that can be easily be analyzed on video from the comfort of your house but not so much in real time if you are on the receiving end of those threats and have no knowledge or experience with violence, it's precursors, and how it escalates.

I'll assume you're speaking generally here [underlined] since you know nothing about me personally..

As for the giving/getting analogy, it's easy to mistakenly accuse Yellow man of being passive just because he wasn't as animated as Black Shirt. But, Yellow man was running his mouth pretty good too. He was whining more than in-your-face hostile, but, he was actively participating in ratcheting up Black Shirts attitude. Perhaps that was not his intention, but, that was the result.

[TCinVA]

.... the video cameras.

Video cameras frequently aren't working properly when you need them to. Unfortunately.

[jmjames]

Video cameras frequently aren't working properly when you need them to. Unfortunately.

They also often do not capture audio, or have so little detail that you can't see important details like facial expressions. And there's plenty of cases where the cameras don't cover the full scene. Etc. How often have you watched security camera footage on the news and scratched your head in confusion?

J.Ja

[Ed L]

I'll assume you're speaking generally here [underlined] since you know nothing about me personally.

I wasn't I referring to you when I wrote "have no knowledge or experience with violence, it's precursors, and how it escalates.". I was referring specifically to the person in the yellow shirt in the video who got the beating since judging by the video he had "no knowledge or experience with violence, it's precursors, and how it escalates."


As for the giving/getting analogy, it's easy to mistakenly accuse Yellow man of being passive just because he wasn't as animated as Black Shirt. But, Yellow man was running his mouth pretty good too. He was whining more than in-your-face hostile, but, he was actively participating in ratcheting up Black Shirts attitude. Perhaps that was not his intention, but, that was the result.

The guy in the yellow shirt was dealing with an irrational, unpredictible, spontaneously violent individual in a highly unusual situation--one that he had clearly never experienced or imagined or even realized he was in until it was too late. The victim became increasingly rattled by it.

The smart thing to do would have been to put down whatever he was buying and leave or safely back up a distance. But once the aggressor keyed on him there was no guarantee that the aggressor might not have followed him. I've veiwed the video several times and have yet to find anything the guy in yellow said that would remotley cause any near-normal person to react the way the aggressor did. I don't see this as a two-way confrontation.

[barstoolguru]

the right thing to do is not be a wuss and fight back. the guy wouldn't have made a play of the man had some backbone

[JDM]

Actually, the right thing to do is leave when you realize there is a GD psycho in line with you.

If you do not have the ability to realize that then perhaps you need more training.

[barstoolguru]

you get "punked" like that and it will eat you alive. in your mind you will get beat over and over and wonder why you didn't fight back. I have been in enough fights to know if you don't stand your ground a guy like that will do just what he did "Punk you"

A hero dies one death but a coward a thousand

[Jay Cunningham]

barstoolguru,

What are some of your strategies for deselection? If you are selected, what are some of your strategies for deescalation and disengagement?

What are some of your strategies for managing unknown contacts?

[Tamara]

A hero dies one death but a coward a thousand

1) I am not a hero.

2) Nor am I a coward. I would prefer to walk away because the alternative boils down to me having to potentially kill some dude, which is a colossal pain in the fourth point of contact and could screw up my social calendar for months to come, no matter how much the jerk had it coming. I've got a gun on my hip; I don't get to play fisticuffs like a third grader on the playground. My objective in any situation like this is "How do I get out of this safely without having to bust a cap in anybody?"

Even if I didn't have a gun with me, it boils down to the fact that, while I don't want to ride in an ambulance or a hearse, I don't want to ride in a cop car, either. If you unleashed a righteous beatdown on this dude, what do you think would happen when the cops showed up? Would it be a preferable outcome to just buying your Gatorade someplace else?

[bdcheung]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_4cBMHYpZbj4/TOOfHmOgjNI/AAAAAAAAGfo/yV8eTKme0ww/s1600/dont-feed-the-troll.jpeg

[EMC]

As a non confrontational guy, I hate watching these types of videos, makes me sick for humanity (both the aggressor and the passive audience). And yet, it's probably in my best interest to consider the scenario.

[zacbol]

I'm honestly surprised so many people are saying they'd just walk away. It's the smart/right thing, of that I don't think there can be any question. And it's refreshing to see such a thoughtful response when so frequently gun forums are all bravado and bluster about confronting criminals like some sort of Dirty Harry-esque avenger.

I'll also say that if I wandered into the store and saw this scene transpiring and was not involved myself, I would walk out without hesitation. But even as a non-violent, relatively evolved (or I like to think) person, I'd have real difficulty doing that if I was in line and *I* was the one being threatened. At a intellectual level, I know it's what I *should* do, but my gut's instinctive reaction would have been "I came in to buy a Gatorade and I'm buying my goddamn Gatorade." Certainly, I would have tried to be as non-confrontational as possible, I would stepped back to give the guy distance, apologized (sincerely) that I was too close then stopped talking entirely, but the notion of running out the door the moment someone threatened me is just a little too much for me. Perhaps I'm simply too beholden to evolution, but I simply refuse to live that way even if that decision comes with (potentially dire) consequences.

I will also say it's always interesting to me when self-defense instructors espouse this as well, because generally these people have purposefully put themselves in harms way again and again via their career choices. Turning tail and running because it *might* lead to a confrontation is to me incongruous with the mindset necessary to have become an undercover narcotics officer or Army Ranger or whatever.

Not meaning/trying to troll, just an observation.

[RoyGBiv]

The guy in the yellow shirt was dealing with an irrational, unpredictible, spontaneously violent individual in a highly unusual situation--one that he had clearly never experienced or imagined or even realized he was in until it was too late. The victim became increasingly rattled by it.

The smart thing to do would have been to put down whatever he was buying and leave or safely back up a distance. But once the aggressor keyed on him there was no guarantee that the aggressor might not have followed him. I've veiwed the video several times and have yet to find anything the guy in yellow said that would remotley cause any near-normal person to react the way the aggressor did. I don't see this as a two-way confrontation.

I think we're splitting different hairs here... Clearly Yellow was out of his element. But in my view Yellows choice to participate in the discussion rather than give space and/or exit contributed to the escalation. I'm sure Yellow saw it as standing his ground at that moment, but that too is a failure to de-escalate. Even after Black feints the first punch, Yellow is still running his mouth. If Yellow disengaged and departed, even at that point, the situation still had a good chance of de-escalating with Yellows pride the only thing hurt. If Yellow backed away and Black followed, Yellow would "know", physical force would be justified (at least in the eyes of this juror). Yellow was bullied into the situation but chose to keep participating, perhaps not believing or not realizing Blacks fuse was lit. Pride cometh...

[Zhurdan]

you get "punked" like that and it will eat you alive. in your mind you will get beat over and over and wonder why you didn't fight back. I have been in enough fights to know if you don't stand your ground a guy like that will do just what he did "Punk you"

A hero dies one death but a coward a thousand

... and the foolish get in many fights.

"Enough" fights for me ended somewhere around 2 times and Junior year of high school. Fighting when you don't absolutely have to is just... well, foolish. There are too many variables to ensure that you will come out unscathed. Slip on the juice spilling on the floor and crack your head on the counter... dead. Or worse yet, a vegetable, dependent on family to pay your bills, etc.

Unless you're an MMA fighter and getting paid to fight, it's always better to walk away. I'd rather go over it in my head a thousand times than have to go over it once with a police officer in my face with his handy dandy notebook there writing down everything I say.

[Tamara]

This...


...running out the door the moment someone threatened me...

...does not equal this


I would have tried to be as non-confrontational as possible, I would stepped back to give the guy distance, apologized (sincerely) that I was too close then stopped talking entirely...

If yellow shirt had stepped back, said "Hey, sorry, dude. It's cool," and shut his cakehole, even if it meant letting the black-shirted jerk get the last word (he'd probably mutter something like "Yeah, you better be sorry,") and go on his way, I sincerely doubt any "running out the door" would have been necessary.

It costs me nothing to let somebody have a little egoboo at what they think is my expense. They don't need to know that, down inside, I'm mostly just feeling happy that they didn't make me shoot them.

The eagle does not hunt the fly.

[Al T.]

Turning tail and running because it *might* lead to a confrontation is to me incongruous with the mindset necessary to have become an undercover narcotics officer or Army Ranger or whatever.

At first glance, that is understandable. But if you think about it, .mil folks and .LE folks have "missions" to accomplish. If that mission is your safety, then avoiding conflict should a consideration. If the mission is to respond to a threat that you can't avoid, then your parameters change.

[JodyH]

Step back and apologize, everybody likes a little personal space. No big deal.
Irrational ranting, you get that from every homeless guy on the street. Again, no big deal. Give him some more space and don't engage in the "conversation".
Irrational man bows up and feints a punch? I'm backing up and walking away. I've got no dog in this fight other than ego. Inflated ego's get people killed for dumb reasons.
Guy actually goes hands on with me after I've done all of the above, it's on like Donkey Kong and I'm putting him down as hard and fast as I can with whatever force is justified.

[TCinVA]

I will also say it's always interesting to me when self-defense instructors espouse this as well, because generally these people have purposefully put themselves in harms way again and again via their career choices.


You'll find that a lot of guys who have gone willingly into harm's way have had close calls and have experience watching friends who didn't make it through close calls. They've watched people bleed out. They've watched people get confined to a wheelchair for the rest of their life. They've probably seen somebody try and recover from severe brain trauma. They've seen the bills. They've seen the years of rehabilitation IF someone manages to survive. They've seen the toll all this takes on families, relationships, and finances.

Eventually they come to the conclusion that in the big unpredictable world we live in, when you pick a fight you've pulled the handle on the Karmic Slot Machine of Suck, and that what specific flavor you're going to get served is now almost completely out of your hands. So you'd better ask yourself whether or not the reason you're pulling that handle is really worth it. "Worth it" tends to look very different when the dude you just punched is laying in front of you with agonal respiration because one good punch knocked him out and his head bounced off the concrete. Now suddenly that spat over Gatorade has elevated into a potentially lethal use of force and all the criminal and civil liability that comes along with it.

...or, he could knock the snot out of you, and you could be the one laying there with agonal respiration and a likely brain injury. Only the other guy probably isn't going to try to render first aid. Or call 911. And should you survive, what do you think the odds are that he has sufficient assets to cover the medical costs you're going to incur recovering?

The guys who have willingly gone into harm's way have all figured out just how bad it can actually get...which is why you'll find that they frequently don't rush head-long into stupid ***CENSORED***. They avoid doing so for the same reason that King Leonidas didn't just fling his small band of warriors at the Persians in just any ol' spot.

There are times in life when you get handed a fight you didn't want and you have to deal with it. There are times in life when you need to stand up and take the fight to someone. There are also times when risking a fight is just ***CENSORED*** stupid. Being ***CENSORED*** stupid is rarely a good long term strategy for success in any endeavor, especially ones that involve violence.

The guys who have willingly gone into harm's way have figured all that out in the school of hard knocks. The wise man looks at the experience of others and learns from it. The fool insists that personal experience be his only teacher.

[barstoolguru]

barstoolguru,

What are some of your strategies for deselection? If you are selected, what are some of your strategies for deescalation and disengagement?

What are some of your strategies for managing unknown contacts?

Mine; be the adult. Defuse it if possible but in no way turn your back on him or anyone. Show them if they are looking for trouble they better have a lunch with them because it's going to be a long fight.

I for one am surprised at the comments on here; you all talk about combat and standing up to a threat then want to drop your Gatorade and run when it comes

If that man would have stood his ground that guy most likely would have backed off. No one wants to get punched in the face, not even the BG.
A punch in the face heals but not doing anything will haunt you, eat at your inner soul until there is nothing left.

Why do most people go to fight training? Because something did happen and they couldn't do anything about it and it eats at them.

[digiadaamore]

But what would you gain from that? I'm just not seeing any upside to remaining there once the dude in the black t-shirt turns around and gets rude. Sure, his little feint punch left him unbalanced and open to a slew of awesome kung-fu countermoves. He blusters, makes that little feint, you make your devastating response...

...and then the cops get called and nobody saw nothin', except for his sister-in-law who was just coming out of the beer cave and swears up and down you egged him on by calling him names, and...

There's just no upside to staying engaged in a situation like that.

Well as i said i wouldnt still be there. im just pointing out if you were by some act of god you could quickly end the fight without him getting in a sucker punch. but as i said i sure as hell would have left well before that

[zacbol]

The guys who have willingly gone into harm's way have figured all that out in the school of hard knocks. The wise man looks at the experience of others and learns from it. The fool insists that personal experience be his only teacher.
My statement was not meant as a value judgment or an aspersion, again merely confused observation. Thank you for helping me understand. In reading your response I feel like I somehow caused you personal affront. If so, my apologies. Again, my confusion is/was that I briefly considered military/law enforcement, but was too risk averse. I did not need the direct experience of seeing others or myself die or suffer to know I wanted to avoid those things when possible. And so I chose not to join the military. And I try to avoid fights and walk away when possible, but in lieu of something truly horrible having happened, I suppose my commitment to avoiding conflict may not be quite as deep.

[TCinVA]

My statement was not meant as a value judgment or an aspersion, again merely confused observation. Thank you for helping me understand. In reading your response I feel like I somehow caused you personal affront.


Not at all. Text is an inexact medium as large amounts of human communication are non-verbal. I wasn't offended in the least. The text was meant purely to offer some insight into why those guys take the positions that they do.

[Zhurdan]

Mine; be the adult. Defuse it if possible but in no way turn your back on him or anyone. Show them if they are looking for trouble they better have a lunch with them because it's going to be a long fight.

I for one am surprised at the comments on here; you all talk about combat and standing up to a threat then want to drop your Gatorade and run when it comes

If that man would have stood his ground that guy most likely would have backed off. No one wants to get punched in the face, not even the BG.
A punch in the face heals but not doing anything will haunt you, eat at your inner soul until there is nothing left.

Why do most people go to fight training? Because something did happen and they couldn't do anything about it and it eats at them.

Not speaking for everyone here, but I'd say that I TRAIN to fight, not try to find one. IF the fight comes to me and I can't disengage, I have trained to deal with it but that doesn't mean that the guys personal space is the "line in the sand, this far, no further" (JLP voice). It's far easier to avoid the fight, so why not avoid it?

[TCinVA]

I for one am surprised at the comments on here; you all talk about combat and standing up to a threat then want to drop your Gatorade and run when it comes


Have you ever been on the wrong end of a .38 revolver?

I have. You know what I learned from the experience? It sucked, and I'd really like to avoid a repeat performance if at all possible.

...and guess what? I'm in the kiddie section of the experience pool around here.

I, for one, am through attempting to plumb the depths of your ignorance. It's sufficient for me to stamp "Here be dragons" above your intractable nonsense and cast you into outer darkness.

[EMC]

The Karmic Slot Machine of Suck

Phrase of the day right there.

[jmjames]

Have you ever been on the wrong end of a .38 revolver?

I have. You know what I learned from the experience? It sucked, and I'd really like to avoid a repeat performance if at all possible.

I have had the EXACT same experience.

You know why? Because I acted like the Guy in the Yellow Shirt.

I think the only thing to save me (the person with the gun was flying on LSD) was the fact that I knew the person and through the drugs he realized it was going to be a mistake.

Like TC, I have no desire... EVER... to repeat that experience if possible.

J.Ja

[RoyGBiv]

Phrase of the day right there.

I liked these, personally..


They don't need to know that, down inside, I'm mostly just feeling happy that they didn't make me shoot them.

The eagle does not hunt the fly.

[JodyH]

Why do most people go to fight training? Because something did happen and they couldn't do anything about it and it eats at them.
Walking away IS doing something about it.

I don't train so I can argue and fight with idiots.
I train so I make it home to my family every night.
There was ZERO to be gained by engaging in fisticuffs with that clown.

You know what would eat me up? Sitting in jail for killing that guy while my 9 year old boy grows up without me.
Him having to tell his friends Daddy's in jail for killing some roid rager in a convenience store over 6" of personal space.

Is George Armstrong Custer known for his willingness to carry the fight to the enemy, or is he known for one of the greatest military blunders in history due to an over-inflated ego?

[NickA]

I look at it as training to STOP the fight. I'm glad I learned early on the "4 layers of non-participation" in a fight:
Non-attendance
Being the gray man
De-escalation
Stopping the fight as quickly as possible by any means necessary, up to and including deadly force.

Walking away from a bad situation, unharmed, un-arrested, and not having to kill somdood = Win.
Getting killed, arrested, or living with killing somdood because of something as stupid as pride - not a win.
To paraphrase the great philosopher Marcellus Wallace, "That sting you feel is just pride f'ing with you. " I can live with that sting, while I go home to my family and have a laugh at the guy who doesn't know how close he may have come to getting shot.

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[Byron]

you get "punked" like that and it will eat you alive. in your mind you will get beat over and over and wonder why you didn't fight back.

A punch in the face heals but not doing anything will haunt you, eat at your inner soul until there is nothing left.
Spoken like a man with severe insecurity. Seriously.

We're not talking about witnessing a genocide and failing to intervene (which would indeed eat at me). We're talking about a jerk in a convenience store who is mouthing off.

I'm secure enough in my manhood that I can walk away without it destroying my soul. He can even call me a silly, stinky, doody head if he wants. And I'll laugh and acknowledge to everyone in the store that I can indeed be a doody head sometimes. And Mr Jerk can even believe that he has won; I don't care. I didn't care what he thought 5 minutes before he opened his mouth, and I won't care 5 minutes after. I don't have anything to prove to him or anyone else.

If I am placed in danger that I cannot escape, that is a completely different story, but that's not what happened here.

With people who are trying to pick ego battles, the easiest way to beat them is to just not play their game. I'm not in high school any more (speaking of which, I never got barstoolguru's age, but I'm guessing it plays a pretty large factor here).

(I recognize that barstoolguru is now banned -- thank you TC! -- so this response is directed outward, towards anyone else who might feel the same as him inside, but is at least smart enough not to say it out loud. Oh, and TC... since you just punked him, you better watch out! He might be coming after you.)

[jthhapkido]

Mine; be the adult. Defuse it if possible but in no way turn your back on him or anyone. Show them if they are looking for trouble they better have a lunch with them because it's going to be a long fight.

I for one am surprised at the comments on here; you all talk about combat and standing up to a threat then want to drop your Gatorade and run when it comes

If that man would have stood his ground that guy most likely would have backed off. No one wants to get punched in the face, not even the BG.
A punch in the face heals but not doing anything will haunt you, eat at your inner soul until there is nothing left.

Why do most people go to fight training? Because something did happen and they couldn't do anything about it and it eats at them.

I too think this is a troll, but on the off chance that this attitude really IS what the person thinks, I'll respond once.

Barstoolguru said: Show them if they are looking for trouble they better have a lunch with them because it's going to be a long fight. and If that man would have stood his ground that guy most likely would have backed off. No one wants to get punched in the face, not even the BG.

No. Look at all the pre-fight indicators: every time Yellow Shirt said anything back, it escalated. When he said things back that argued against what Black Shirt said, it escalated further. The minute Yellow Shirt tried to bring anyone else into the argument, it escalated. Given the instant irrationality of Black Shirt, it is more likely that any attempt to be the tough guy would have put Black Shirt instantly into physical attack.

There are some cases wherein showing yourself to be a hard target works. (We've had discussions of that here in other threads.) This one, however, is not one of those cases.

This, of course, also completely ignores the fact that Yellow Shirt could not have pulled off a "tough guy" pose. Neither can most people, because most people don't really understand the "tough guy" pose that criminals read as dangerous. (Ask Southnarc about that one---oh wait, we've had that discussion here also.)

"Running your mouth" tough isn't "being tough" isn't "being dangerous" isn't "being someone you don't want to mess with" isn't "being someone that irrational people WON'T mess with." Black Shirt was all the way into irrational mode, which makes it actually less likely that a "tough guy" pose will cause de-escalation.

Barstoolguru said: I for one am surprised at the comments on here; you all talk about combat and standing up to a threat then want to drop your Gatorade and run when it comes and A punch in the face heals but not doing anything will haunt you, eat at your inner soul until there is nothing left.

Really? I'm thinking that unless it was a situation in which a loved one got killed because I was incapable of action, it isn't going to worry me at all.

Oddly enough, I don't need other people to think I'm tough to feel perfectly fine with myself. On a similar note, I don't think that beating up a moron in a Stop-And-Rob in any way makes me able to live with myself at night.

More specifically: If I were in Yellow Shirt's place, I wouldn't care at all what Black Shirt thought---so turning and walking out doesn't bother me in the slightest. (Why should I care what some moron thinks of me?)

It is interesting looking at your phrasing: "you all talk about combat " ...."then want to drop...and run." I've seen that type of phrasing before in many places, and in my past experience (which is martial-art related) it generally came from 18-25 year old males who are all about looking tough, being seen to be tough, and who all think that MMA is the be-all and end-all of self-defense.

Note: I'm not saying that fits you, I'm just saying that is where I've seen that attitude most.

The attitude I've seen most from people who really are actually dangerous looks more like: "Oh? Didn't mean to bother you. I'll just come back later to pick up some Gatorade. Bye." You know why? Because they see no reason why they should bother to beat up someone else, and deal with all the discussions with the police, and the civil courts, and all the time that takes. Why bother? The guy doesn't matter. And their time does.

You said: "eat at your soul until there is nothing left." That is actually a phrase (particularly when attached to a simple non-fight situation like this one) that is a good indicator that there are background issues that are being not dealt with, in which people are overcompensating in an attempt to change something that can't be changed.

Back to the main point: Yellow shirt was clueless, thought that normal societal rules would somehow protect him, and they didn't. He had nothing but his mouth, and it kept saying things (among other things, whining and arguing) that he couldn't back up, and that actually didn't matter at all, because Black Shirt wasn't listening to what he SAID. Black shirt wasn't much, either (his technique was pathetic), but he had a willingness to ignore the standard social contract, and it blew Yellow Shirt's mind. (And his jaw.)

I must admit---I found this video really funny to watch. (That says something unpleasant about my personality, I'm afraid.) It has just about every single pre-attack indicator in it, it shows just about every aspect of what happens when you ignore reality, and it demonstrates how the Monkey Dance will get your butt kicked when you let it.

I plan on using it in all my self-defense classes as a great example. It's fantastic!

Barstoolguru? Get some help, man. And perhaps go to a class on actual self-defense to learn what sorts of things you are actually setting yourself up for. I realize that it goes against the grain to allow blatant stupidity to not get punished (it would be much more satisfying to pound Black Shirt for being an idiot, no argument there) however, we've currently legislated against that sufficiently in most states that it just isn't worth trying it.

With that kind of irrational behavior, Black Shirt will get what's coming to him sometime. Probably soon.

[bcauz3y]

Have you ever been on the wrong end of a .38 revolver?

I have. You know what I learned from the experience? It sucked, and I'd really like to avoid a repeat performance if at all possible.

...and guess what? I'm in the kiddie section of the experience pool around here.

I, for one, am through attempting to plumb the depths of your ignorance. It's sufficient for me to stamp "Here be dragons" above your intractable nonsense and cast you into outer darkness.

I got shot in the hand with a .38

No fun.

I avoid fights, because fights end with one guy usually pretty badly hurt or worse. That means I've got a 50/50 shot of drooling in my mash potatoes for the rest of my life while my wife raises my kids by herself.

Pass.

[JeffJ]

I learned in elementary school that even if you win the fight, you usually get hurt too. Call me crazy, but I don't like getting punched in the face - I can handle myself if it comes to that - but I'd rather avoid it. I don't like Gatorade that much anyway.

[NETim]

"The best sign of good training is never having to use it." -- Clint Smith

"Even if you perform magnificently in a fight, you can still get killed." -- Clint Smith

Not my job to teach the idiots in our midst their manners and no Gatorade has ever been made that's worth going to war over.

[digiadaamore]

As a part of what i carry everday i have OC on me at all times, what are everyones thoughts on hosing this guy down if it happens right in front of you? i.e. if your checking out and see the shoving match start and you cant get out in time before it comes to blows?

[JDM]

As a part of what i carry everday i have OC on me at all times, what are everyones thoughts on hosing this guy down if it happens right in front of you? i.e. if your checking out and see the shoving match start and you cant get out in time before it comes to blows?

Nope.

Unless I was an on duty police officer, I wouldn't get involved.

What if black doesn't respond to OC? You just turned something benign and entirely not your problem, into entirely your problem, and much less benign.

[JodyH]

Fight between two adult males of similar age and build = i'll be minding my own business. I probably wont even hang around to be a witness. Two idiots fighting aren't worth my time off work to testify for or against either one of them.
Getting directly involved with OC... nope, not going to happen.

Did you see the guy grab his beer and hit the door running? That would be me.

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