The Run your Gun Standards

[jetfire]

At the close of my youtube videos I'm fond of saying "run your gun, not your mouth" despite the fact that I do both pretty frequently. I used to have a different name for this drill but I've taken to calling it the Run your Gun standards. Here's a video!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTTgSqny6vI

If you can't watch video at work, you need an NRA AP Repair center (https://amzn.to/2GcgvoU) which has a 4 inch X-ring and an 8 inch 10 ring. You fire four strings of six shots each, one string at 10 yards, next at 15, then 20, and finally at 25. Par times are 6, 9, 12, and 15 seconds for each distance. The Run your Gun Standards is a pass/fail drill: to pass you have to shoot all 10s or Xs. You fail if you shoot any rounds outside the 8 inch ten ring. Simple as that!

Oh, pars are the same if you're shooting a red dot or an iron sight gun. A perfect score would be 240-24x, which I've never done.

[Tom Duffy]

I recently found your videos when I was researching the purchase of a Dan Wesson in 9mm. I think they are full of good practical information and opinion, kind of an oasis of common sense in a world of over the top youtube videos.
I notice you're using a full size gun with a red dot. Are you standards relaxed for a more CCW friendly gun such as a Glock 19 with iron sights? What is the Run Your Gun Standard a standard of? I'm aware of the goal of being able to hit a grapefruit sized target from any distance, but as a practical matter, a self defense situation isn't going to be decided by the prerequisite of shooting to your standard. I'm thinking the FBI qualification using a Q target might be more relevant.


ETA: Sorry, didn't see your comment that the standard is the same for iron sights.

[jetfire]

I recently found your videos when I was researching the purchase of a Dan Wesson in 9mm. I think they are full of good practical information and opinion, kind of an oasis of common sense in a world of over the top youtube videos.
I notice you're using a full size gun with a red dot. Are you standards relaxed for a more CCW friendly gun such as a Glock 19 with iron sights? What is the Run Your Gun Standard a standard of? I'm aware of the goal of being able to hit a grapefruit sized target from any distance, but as a practical matter, a self defense situation isn't going to be decided by the prerequisite of shooting to your standard. I'm thinking the FBI qualification using a Q target might be more relevant.


ETA: Sorry, didn't see your comment that the standard is the same for iron sights.

It's a test of on-demand marksmanship skills, nothing else. It doesn't really have anything to do with CCW in the sense that most people would understand; other than the fact that winning a defensive shooting or gunfight could very likely require some significant on-demand marksmanship skills.

[HopetonBrown]

I'm thinking the FBI qualification using a Q target might be more relevant.



The Q target is really, really big.

If the area of the body where a physiological stop would occur is the area inside a triangle formed by the aortic notch and 2 nipples, Caleb's circle would fit inside that triangle.

[jetfire]

The Q target is really, really big.

If the area of the body where a physiological stop would occur is the area inside a triangle formed by the aortic notch and 2 nipples, Caleb's circle would fit inside that triangle.

I started getting serious about a 4 inch circle as an accuracy standard after I took The Armed Parent/Guardian course and part of that was showing the class the size of an anatomically correct heart.

[Wayne Dobbs]

I'm thinking the FBI qualification using a Q target might be more relevant.

I'll just pile on here and say that ANY of the popular LE qualification targets are too big. They are intended to get the standard mediocre to poor LE shooter across the qualification finish line where their pizza and trophy for being a "winner" await. I call them "No Cop Left Behind" targets. Use the recommended repair center or a B-8, in which the 8 ring is exactly 8" (same standard as the AP center).

[Tom Duffy]

I'll just pile on here and say that ANY of the popular LE qualification targets are too big. They are intended to get the standard mediocre to poor LE shooter across the qualification finish line where their pizza and trophy for being a "winner" await. I call them "No Cop Left Behind" targets. Use the recommended repair center or a B-8, in which the 8 ring is exactly 8" (same standard as the AP center).
I don't consider it piling on :) , because I understand and even agree with your point of view. Accuracy is essential. But I think your standards for accuracy, especially accuracy at a longer distance demonstrates a law enforcement bias. A civilian would have trouble justifying a 10 yard shot as self defense. Caleb's Run Your Gun Standard is an excellent test of overall shooting prowess, being a combination of draw, speed, and accuracy. But it's pretty much unobtainable for the average shooter given that one range session a week of a hundred rounds is "really working at it" and generally non-sustainable because life gets in the way.
I just spent quite a bit of time searching for a video interview, posted on pistol forum in 2014 or 2015, by a Chicago SWAT team lieutenant who'd been involved 12 or so gunfights of the course of his career. His practice sessions were mostly at very close range, perhaps 3 yards with a smaller revolver, large XS sights, and a disproportionate attention to weak hand shooting. He said you'll usually be opening a door, carrying something or someone, escorting civilians, etc.
My view has also been formed by some of John Murphy's videos showing incidents caught on surveillance cameras of actual muggings and robberies. Everything happens really close and really fast. Makes me think having a laser is better than having a red dot.
I like the FBI qualification test. It's a test in which you have to demonstrate strong hand and weak hand shooting, reasonable facility with reloads, emphasizes more short distance shooting, while still including 25 yard shots. It also shows where you have particular areas of weakness that need to be improved while still passing the test. I think the qualification test is more than adequate for the FBI, given the nature of their work. They investigate, interview, and write reports. If you made the qualification sufficiently harder, you'd end up with a bunch of gunslingers who mostly couldn't do the work. If every cop and CCW holder could pass this qualification we'd be in a much better place.
If Caleb's goal is to consistently hit a 4 inch heart sized target, why not just go for a headshot? Maybe because if he misses by a bit he's still got a hit on the Q target - a number of which will prove to be very effective.

[HopetonBrown]

A civilian would have trouble justifying a 10 yard shot as self defense.

Tom Givens has said that out of his 65 students that have been in a gunfight, 2 were beyond 15 yards.

To put that into perspective, just 3 of the 65 gunfights involved contact shots.

I find the FBI qual to be a snooze fest.

[Wayne Dobbs]

Tom Givens has said that out of his 65 students that have been in a gunfight, 2 were beyond 15 yards.

To put that into perspective, just 3 of the 65 gunfights involved contact shots.

I find the FBI qual to be a snooze fest.

The new FBI Pistol Qual just released and it's a bit more sporty:

FBI PISTOL QUALIFICATION COURSE
Revised January 2019

QIT Silhouette 2 points per hit

3 Yards
Draw and fire 3 rounds strong hand only, switch hands and fire 3 round support hand only, all in 6 seconds

5 Yards
Draw and fire 3 rounds in 3 seconds
From the ready, fire 3 rounds in 2 seconds
From the ready, fire 6 rounds in 4 seconds

7 Yards
Draw and fire 5 rounds in 5 seconds
From the ready, fire 4 rounds, conduct an empty gun reload, and fire 4 more rounds all in 8 seconds
From the ready, fire 5 rounds in 4 seconds

15 Yards
Draw and fire 3 rounds in 6 seconds
From the ready, fire 3 rounds in 5 seconds

25 Yards
Draw and fire 4 rounds from standing, drop to kneeling position and fire 4 more rounds from kneeling, all in 20 seconds

50 rounds 100 points possible 90 or above for instructors

Our own Tom Givens had input with the training cadre at Quantico on this revision.

[revchuck38]

^^^^^^Need to get some QIT targets and try this.

[Wayne Dobbs]

^^^^^^Need to get some QIT targets and try this.

Run it on a B-8 center or the 8" circle of the IDPA. Takes out the slop shots and such. This one does move along quickly.

[nwhpfan]

I enjoyed your video. I always like to see what other people do and see as a challenge. I'll have to give it a try. Personally I would just call it the "Run your mouth standards..." Y'know, like ok, you can talk, now can you shoot...and have them do this...

[revchuck38]

Run it on a B-8 center or the 8" circle of the IDPA. Takes out the slop shots and such. This one does move along quickly.

Printed out and stuck in my range notebook. I'll run this the next time I go to the range.

[jetfire]

I'll just pile on here and say that ANY of the popular LE qualification targets are too big. They are intended to get the standard mediocre to poor LE shooter across the qualification finish line where their pizza and trophy for being a "winner" await. I call them "No Cop Left Behind" targets. Use the recommended repair center or a B-8, in which the 8 ring is exactly 8" (same standard as the AP center).

We have the same problem in the USAF - our pistol qual target is this enormous target that makes a B-27 look small, and to qualify all you have to do is hit it 35 out of 45 times. That's right, you can completely miss the target 10 times and still qualify. I will say that making expert on our qual requires someone to be a marginally competent shooter, but the scoring zones are still too big and the expert criteria isn't particularly challenging for anyone at or above IDPA Sharpshooter levels of skill. Word on the street is they're changing the qual when the M18 hits.

[Alpha Sierra]

A civilian would have trouble justifying a 10 yard shot as self defense.
Someone is 15 yards away and closing, gun or knife in hand, telling me he's gonna fuck me up. Easy sell.

[Tom Duffy]

Someone is 15 yards away and closing, gun or knife in hand, telling me he's gonna fuck me up. Easy sell.

Yep, but not at all a common civilian self defense situation. There will always be outliers and anomalies.

[Alpha Sierra]

Yep, but not at all a common civilian self defense situation. There will always be outliers and anomalies.
How do you know what's common and what's not? Come now....

Every single shooting is a universe unto itself and has to be judged on its own merits and context.

[Tom Duffy]

OK, maybe John Murphy or Tom Givens or BehindBlueI or another real SME can weigh in on an “average” engagement range for a self defense situation.

[Alpha Sierra]

OK, maybe John Murphy or Tom Givens or BehindBlueI or another real SME can weigh in on an “average” engagement range for a self defense situation.

Why would I care about the average? I care about the difficult one, the outliers. If I cared about the average I wouldn't even bother carrying a gun in the first place. I'm nearly 53 and haven't needed one yet, and the overwhelming majority of people in this country won't ever need one in their life.

To bring this back around to your original point, why train for the average shot or the average distance? Train to the higher standard. To the difficult, tight, long shots. And then the average shot looks much easier.

Don't need an SME to see that.

[Tom Duffy]

Congratulations! You’re the first person to ever make my ignore list.

[Alpha Sierra]

Congratulations! You’re the first person to ever make my ignore list.

So instead of actually thinking about why someone might disagree with you, you just double down. Cool.

BTW, for someone so fond of quoting "SMEs" you were quick to argue with Wayne Dobbs (who fits the definition of Subject Matter Expert in this field) when he tells you that police quals are typically too easy and that training should be harder than that.



I don't consider it piling on :) , because I understand and even agree with your point of view. Accuracy is essential. But I think your standards for accuracy, especially accuracy at a longer distance demonstrates a law enforcement bias. A civilian would have trouble justifying a 10 yard shot as self defense. Caleb's Run Your Gun Standard is an excellent test of overall shooting prowess, being a combination of draw, speed, and accuracy. But it's pretty much unobtainable for the average shooter given that one range session a week of a hundred rounds is "really working at it" and generally non-sustainable because life gets in the way.
I just spent quite a bit of time searching for a video interview, posted on pistol forum in 2014 or 2015, by a Chicago SWAT team lieutenant who'd been involved 12 or so gunfights of the course of his career. His practice sessions were mostly at very close range, perhaps 3 yards with a smaller revolver, large XS sights, and a disproportionate attention to weak hand shooting. He said you'll usually be opening a door, carrying something or someone, escorting civilians, etc.
My view has also been formed by some of John Murphy's videos showing incidents caught on surveillance cameras of actual muggings and robberies. Everything happens really close and really fast. Makes me think having a laser is better than having a red dot.
I like the FBI qualification test. It's a test in which you have to demonstrate strong hand and weak hand shooting, reasonable facility with reloads, emphasizes more short distance shooting, while still including 25 yard shots. It also shows where you have particular areas of weakness that need to be improved while still passing the test. I think the qualification test is more than adequate for the FBI, given the nature of their work. They investigate, interview, and write reports. If you made the qualification sufficiently harder, you'd end up with a bunch of gunslingers who mostly couldn't do the work. If every cop and CCW holder could pass this qualification we'd be in a much better place.
If Caleb's goal is to consistently hit a 4 inch heart sized target, why not just go for a headshot? Maybe because if he misses by a bit he's still got a hit on the Q target - a number of which will prove to be very effective.

Yep, you know what's best compared to Wayne.

[Alpha Sierra]

To get back on track,

As soon as I get a break in the weather, I'll be taking up Wayne's and Jetfire's advice and take a stab at the RYG and new FBI qual.

The times and round counts make them definitely revolver friendly.

[Hambo]

The new FBI Pistol Qual just released and it's a bit more sporty:


50 rounds 100 points possible 90 or above for instructors



How are they scoring that? Down one if outside the squares?

[jetfire]

To get back on track,

As soon as I get a break in the weather, I'll be taking up Wayne's and Jetfire's advice and take a stab at the RYG and new FBI qual.

The times and round counts make them definitely revolver friendly.

When I was thinking this one up, I based it a little bit on the Bianchi Cup Practical, which is revolver friendly. I also like 6 shot strings for whatever reason.

[Wayne Dobbs]

How are they scoring that? Down one if outside the squares?

It's all or nothing. Inside the bottle is two points, outside is zip.

[jetfire]

It's all or nothing. Inside the bottle is two points, outside is zip.

The bottle is HUGE, and yet I know people will still struggle to pass it. Sad face

[Hambo]

It's all or nothing. Inside the bottle is two points, outside is zip.

Damn, I thought they had gotten serious.

[revchuck38]

IIRC, the QIT bottle is about the same size as the -1 on an IDPA target. Can anyone verify this? I sometimes have issues due to CRS.

[CCT125US]

So close..
HK USP9c v7
JRC CDAII
Blazer 124

Also going in rotation

35300

[jetfire]

So close..
HK USP9c v7
JRC CDAII
Blazer 124

Also going in rotation

35300

That's good shooting though!

[ASH556]

Tried it with 92A1 out of SLS and G45 out of ALS (Man, ALS is soooo much better!) Shot cold, no warmup. 15 and 20yd strings kicked my ass both times. Used time poorly on those strings both times. I shoot enough 25 that those were probably the easiest strings for me. Looks like I need to work some 15 and 20yd stuff with time pressure:

https://i.imgur.com/3shMzEzl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/DkhPF0cl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/s4zzPL2l.jpg

[1Rangemaster]

I took a run at this this afternoon, and failed at the 15 and 20 yard line-shooting way too fast.
I like this for the distances((particularly the 20&25), and will work on it some more.
Thanks for putting it out there.

[1Rangemaster]

I ran through this twice this afternoon on a lit indoor range. My current “duty” setup, a GLOCK Model45, out of a Level 3 rig. Fails both times, but improvement noted. No run was over time, and none over 10 seconds. So, obviously time management is an issue-need to use it all.
On the first run, a total of 6 out at 20 and 25 yards(in outside ring). Second run, only 3 out(to include one a touch high at 10-!); rounds be each at 20 and 25 yards.
Intrigued with this drill for timing and the basics.
Will certainly try to give it a go again...

[1Rangemaster]

I’m liking this exercise/drill/test. Ran it this afternoon, with a G45 out of a Level 3 holster, GLOCK “BOLD” sights dialed in with 115 gr.ball ammo. Sights dialed in, shooter a tad off: every run, one out(usually high. Only used time well at 20
&25 yards.
So, a fail by the stated standards, but instructive and a good exercise. This will be shot frequently-thanks again for putting it out.

[ASH556]

Still liking and still failing this drill. After the suppressed suckfest with the G45 I decided to run this. Dropped 5 rds total and did not use time well at all:

https://i.imgur.com/LcXnU9Il.jpg

Shot again with the Beretta and trying to shoot "X's" and keep it clean. I think my issues here were sight picture related. I realized afterward that I was tracking my sights to break the shot as they cleared the the top of the black dot rather than waiting for the center, which is where these sights hit:

https://i.imgur.com/HFgvPbEl.jpg

[ASH556]

Dangit, I almost had it and pulled one out high at 25yds!

https://i.imgur.com/klciDmwl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/qIHm7OXl.jpg