NoVA: Elite Shooting Sports Practical Carbine and Threat Response Level One

[Wake27]

I'm not going to go into too much detail with these, but I couldn't find anything on them so I did want to share my thoughts for others in the future. Just so its understood where my thoughts are going from, I'm active duty Army so I have had some experience at work, including my division's two-week marksmanship course on the M4. I have also shot a few USPSA competitions and have about 14 days of professional training on the civilian side including Mike Pannone, Jason Falla/Redback One, and Specialized Services Group. All of the classes I've taken have been either pistol, carbine, or both and range from beginner to intermediate. I've done some instructing, most of it for the Army at the battalion level but also for the last gun club I was a member of - I was the lead instructor for their "marksmanship/defensive" program, but we didn't have a lot of throughput so it wasn't anything serious. All of that being said, below are my thoughts.

BLUF: The biggest positive to these classes over many others is the convenience of location and scheduling. ESS is located very close to major population centers outside of DC which meant that I could drive there in 20-30 minutes and most people seemed to be within an hour. Between that and the fact that they split up the carbine course after work during the week, it cost significantly less time and money then driving several hours each way and potentially having to pay for a hotel, as well as giving up a full day or two on the weekend. If you're a beginner, I definitely think its worth it. If you're at the intermediate level, I think its worth it if you can't make it to some of the other training opportunities in the area and you go in with the understanding that the classes are likely geared towards beginners, unless otherwise stated.

Practical Carbine Course
Background: This is a beginner class that spends about four hours in the classroom going over gear, cleaning, fundamentals, etc. Admittedly, I was pretty bored through most of the classroom stuff but for newer shooters or those who have never received formal instruction, I think it provided a lot of good info and would serve as a solid way to prepare someone for a more typical level one course because there was a fair amount of info that they covered that I have not yet seen in civilian courses. We spent the other four hours on the range running through a few different drills which ultimately culminated with the VTAC 1-5 and a competition with the 2+2 reload drill. I shot about 800 rounds of carbine and 130 rounds of pistol, but most of the drills we were given a 2-7 shot suggestion so those won't be hard numbers for everyone attending.
Good: cleaning portion got a lot of questions so it seemed valuable to other students; instructor ratio was very good at 1:3/4; introduced transition to pistol; scheduling was setup so that it was a four-hour block from 1800-2200 on Wednesday and then again from 1800-2200 on Thursday.
Bad: the live fire was more of a guided range day than actual instruction - from what I could tell the instructors acted much more like RSOs and only offered tips every now and then, usually when a student had some crazy inefficient weapons handling (that being said - they may have just been much more attentive to the newer shooters and I didn't pick up on it; also, their primary instructor wasn't able to make it so I don't know how much of a difference that made).
Neutral: We shot a lot of rounds. Part of me just wanted some trigger time on my new upper so I was cool with just dumping ammo, but there definitely wasn't a huge focus on making every shot count.

Active Threat Response - Level One
Background: This is also a beginner class that spends four hours on classroom topics, again covering fundamentals of marksmanship, but also introducing crime stats for the area, mindset discussion, and other similar topics. A lot of the discussion was pretty good and a solid precursor for the rest of the day which was four different scenarios with sim rounds in their shoot-house.
Good: Each person was able to run through every scenario 2-3 times so that you could improve on your mistakes. There was a lead instructor who would set the scene before your first take and then afterwards gave you the overall objective of the scenario as well as immediate critiques. After your 2-3 takes were done, you'd proceed back to the classroom where another instructor (the one with the most relevant real-world experience) would break down what you did on film. Obviously the sim rounds provided another method of feedback that you really don't get from any other method. While students waited in the classroom for their turn, they brought in one of the lawyers that consults for ESS and teaches their class on gun laws in VA so that we could ask questions and discuss. The instructors and other students did a pretty good job of hiding each scenario so it didn't matter whether you went first or last, you still didn't really know what to expect. There is definitely a level two in the works.
Bad: There was a lot of down time while each student went through the shoot house. This is unavoidable and I think they've mitigated it as well as they can between having the lawyer present and finding the right class size for a decent balance, but most of the afternoon was sitting around talking while waiting for your turn. ESS made it clear that the level one took a lot of time and manpower (which I don't doubt) so it seems like something they may only do every six months or so.
Neutral: There was a wide variety between the four scenarios presented in the shoot house. This was good because it helped students to grasp several different concepts, but force on force training is so hard to come by that I was pretty disappointed that we didn't do more gunning. I don't want to give away too much of the scenarios, but out of the four there was only one that was designed to be a clear kinetic engagement.

[Wake27]

Forgot to mention - there were a few things presented during the carbine course that I strongly disagreed with but its not uncommon to hear both points of view on the below topics. I can go into detail with why I disagree with them if someone wants, but I'd be willing to bet most of us are on the same page with these. Here are their statements:

1. You don't have to put the weapon on safe when reloading.
2. Resting your mag on the deck when in the prone will cause malfunctions unless you have a newer magazine with over-insertion tab. Even then, its not ideal.
3. Magazines should be downloaded by one or two rounds.
4. Magazines should not be left loaded.

All in all, while I'm definitely not crazy about number one, none of those are huge red flags for me that discredit the course. But, figured I'd mention them.

[Alpha Sierra]

1. You don't have to put the weapon on safe when reloading.
2. Resting your mag on the deck when in the prone will cause malfunctions unless you have a newer magazine with over-insertion tab. Even then, its not ideal.
3. Magazines should be downloaded by one or two rounds.
4. Magazines should not be left loaded.

1. Situation dependent
2. Yep, this one is BS
3. This depends on which magazine we're talking about. GI mags, yeah. Magpul, nope. Others, maybe.
4. Another BS one

How'd I do?

[Wake27]

1. Situation dependent
2. Yep, this one is BS
3. This depends on which magazine we're talking about. GI mags, yeah. Magpul, nope. Others, maybe.
4. Another BS one

How'd I do?

I don't believe that the weapon should ever be left on fire during a reload. There's no reason not to engage the safety. The instructor's defense for it is that it takes a lot of time because he's seen plenty of people reload and then forget that they had put it on safe, attempt to pull the trigger, be confused about why it won't fire, etc. I thought that was a pretty weak argument. Also, I've never had the need to download GI mags, but I only use green and tan followers so maybe that's why.

[Alpha Sierra]

I don't believe that the weapon should ever be left on fire during a reload. There's no reason not to engage the safety. The instructor's defense for it is that it takes a lot of time because he's seen plenty of people reload and then forget that they had put it on safe, attempt to pull the trigger, be confused about why it won't fire, etc. I thought that was a pretty weak argument. Also, I've never had the need to download GI mags, but I only use green and tan followers so maybe that's why.

Well I agree with you that this instructor's argument against safety on during reaload is weak. My take on it is that if i was shooting at something or somebody and the gun ran dry, I probably wasn't done shooting so no point in putting the safety on. If, after reloading, I see no reason to shoot any longer, safety on.

As for the magazines, what can I tell you.....my GI mags have both GI green and Magpul followers and with 30 rounds in them they are a bitch to seat compared to my PMAGs. So yeah I'm with him on that.

[Wake27]

Well I agree with you that this instructor's argument against safety on during reaload is weak. My take on it is that if i was shooting at something or somebody and the gun ran dry, I probably wasn't done shooting so no point in putting the safety on. If, after reloading, I see no reason to shoot any longer, safety on.

As for the magazines, what can I tell you.....my GI mags have both GI green and Magpul followers and with 30 rounds in them they are a bitch to seat compared to my PMAGs. So yeah I'm with him on that.

While that's true, my thoughts are that if I come off my sights, the weapon goes on safe. If I don't do it to reload, that increases the chances of accidentally doing it when still loaded.

[Alpha Sierra]

I don't believe that the weapon should ever be left on fire during a reload.

You can't engage the safety on a 1911, nor decock a TDA handgun, while reloading. You can only safe or decock after the reload is complete and the slide is in battery. So why would you treat a rifle differently?

Now, granted, unlike a pistol you can place the selector on an AR to safe when the rifle is out of battery. But since an AR can't fire while the bolt is locked back, what is the point of flicking the selector to safe before commencing the reload? What is achieved then that can't be achieved by placing the selector on safe after the reload if you decide at that point not to continue shooting?

[Wake27]

You can't engage the safety on a 1911, nor decock a TDA handgun, while reloading. You can only safe or decock after the reload is complete and the slide is in battery. So why would you treat a rifle differently?

Now, granted, unlike a pistol you can place the selector on an AR to safe when the rifle is out of battery. But since an AR can't fire while the bolt is locked back, what is the point of flicking the selector to safe before commencing the reload? What is achieved then that can't be achieved by placing the selector on safe after the reload if you decide at that point not to continue shooting?

You don't have it on some guns so why use it on others? Doesn't seem like great logic. I use the thumb safety on my 1911 even though my Glock doesn't have it. Also, and more importantly, if I'm reloading, than my AR is coming into my workspace. Therefore, its coming off the target, which means finger off the trigger and weapon on safe every time. Anything else is laziness.

[vmi-mo]

You don't have it on some guns so why use it on others? Doesn't seem like great logic. I use the thumb safety on my 1911 even though my Glock doesn't have it. Also, and more importantly, if I'm reloading, than my AR is coming into my workspace. Therefore, its coming off the target, which means finger off the trigger and weapon on safe every time. Anything else is laziness.

If you are doing bolt lock reloads with a rifle. Your tactics suck, or you are in a hellacious fight. Barring some other specific circumstances.

Lets say I am on a roof, putting rounds into a building. I am still engaging that building and go to bolt lock reload....Does it go on safe?

When you do multiple target to target transitions does the gun go on safe between each of them?

What is the intent by putting the weapon on safe, every time you reload?

[Wake27]

If you are doing bolt lock reloads with a rifle. Your tactics suck, or you are in a hellacious fight. Barring some other specific circumstances.

Lets say I am on a roof, putting rounds into a building. I am still engaging that building and go to bolt lock reload....Does it go on safe?

When you do multiple target to target transitions does the gun go on safe between each of them?

What is the intent by putting the weapon on safe, every time you reload?

I do, every single time. We can argue this all we want but I won’t change my mind on it, and I know of a few respected trainers that would say the same because it’s a basic rule of firearms safety. We can put it on the timer if you guys want, I’d be curious to see how it goes.


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[vmi-mo]

I do, every single time. We can argue this all we want but I won’t change my mind on it, and I know of a few respected trainers that would say the same because it’s a basic rule of firearms safety. We can put it on the timer if you guys want, I’d be curious to see how it goes.


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I am asking you why you do it, and why it makes sense to you? I am not asking for a regurgitated dogmatic approach because someone else said to. I am asking for personal investment in why you are so adamant about a specific technique.

I could care less what a timer says. Also, there are times I agree with you, and times I do not.

My point is these things are situational, and usually not looked at in the totality of the circumstances. So, just curious why you made this such a hard and fast all the time......

[Wake27]

I am asking you why you do it, and why it makes sense to you? I am not asking for a regurgitated dogmatic approach because someone else said to. I am asking for personal investment in why you are so adamant about a specific technique.

I could care less what a timer says. Also, there are times I agree with you, and times I do not.

My point is these things are situational, and usually not looked at in the totality of the circumstances. So, just curious why you made this such a hard and fast all the time......

I already explained that in post six. I don't throw it into fire until I'm on my sights, and they're on target. I am not one of the few guys that trains to reload without bringing the weapon off target, so ANY time I come off my sights or my weapon comes off target, it goes on safe. Everyone acknowledges that consistency is king when shooting. I believe if you train to reload without putting it on safe, you're training a bad habit of breaking your sight picture while the gun is still on fire, and its more likely you'll do that at the wrong time like when the gun is still loaded. I typically agree that there are many ways to do something based on the situation, but this is not one of them. The only exception in my mind with this one is when the weapon can't go on safe because of the hammer, but the attempt is still made to do so. Plus, you're improving the safety of yourself and everyone around you, with a very small movement and a fraction of a second. There's no reason not to do it.

[vmi-mo]

I already explained that in post six. I don't throw it into fire until I'm on my sights, and they're on target. I am not one of the few guys that trains to reload without bringing the weapon off target, so ANY time I come off my sights or my weapon comes off target, it goes on safe. Everyone acknowledges that consistency is king when shooting. I believe if you train to reload without putting it on safe, you're training a bad habit of breaking your sight picture while the gun is still on fire, and its more likely you'll do that at the wrong time like when the gun is still loaded. I typically agree that there are many ways to do something based on the situation, but this is not one of them. The only exception in my mind with this one is when the weapon can't go on safe because of the hammer, but the attempt is still made to do so. Plus, you're improving the safety of yourself and everyone around you, with a very small movement and a fraction of a second. There's no reason not to do it.

I am a believer is being an ambidextrous shooter. However I despise ambi safes. CORRECT left hand manipulation of the safe is time consuming in relation to a reload if you want to look at it from that perspective.

How do you do reloads in the prone or kneeling positions using cover? You bring the gun up into your "workspace"? I keep the gun oriented in the direction I am engaging, and the leave the firing position as built as possible, which means I can return to firing sooner. We can argue over the merits of standing in a field in the open and doing reloads for time, however those dont (hopefully) ever happen.

If you are tracking a moving target in your sights, everytime your aiming point comes off the target, do you throw it back on safe?

Do you leave your finger on the trigger or have a history of guns firing on their own? Do you muzzle friendlies often?

[Wake27]

I am a believer is being an ambidextrous shooter. However I despise ambi safes. CORRECT left hand manipulation of the safe is time consuming in relation to a reload if you want to look at it from that perspective.

How do you do reloads in the prone or kneeling positions using cover? You bring the gun up into your "workspace"? I keep the gun oriented in the direction I am engaging, and the leave the firing position as built as possible, which means I can return to firing sooner. We can argue over the merits of standing in a field in the open and doing reloads for time, however those dont (hopefully) ever happen.

If you are tracking a moving target in your sights, everytime your aiming point comes off the target, do you throw it back on safe?

Do you leave your finger on the trigger or have a history of guns firing on their own? Do you muzzle friendlies often?

I do almost zero lefty shooting, it’s one of the big things I need to start doing because I suck at it. That being said, we (Army) have M4A1s now so whether you hate it or not, ambi safeties are common and available.

When kneeling, I reload the same as standing. Prone is harder, but it sounds like I do the same as you, maybe cant the gun a little bit. As far as moving targets, I don’t put it on safe if I lose my target briefly, assuming it is very brief.

With all of those being said, the point is that I’m still connected to my sights if the gun is on fire. Non-dominant hand and awkward positions make it more important to put the weapon on safe, not less.


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[Wake27]

Do you leave your finger on the trigger or have a history of guns firing on their own? Do you muzzle friendlies often?

No, no, and no. But that doesn’t mean I’m going to completely disregard a manual safety because I don’t typically do any of that stuff.


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[vmi-mo]

I do almost zero lefty shooting, it’s one of the big things I need to start doing because I suck at it. That being said, we (Army) have M4A1s now so whether you hate it or not, ambi safeties are common and available.

When kneeling, I reload the same as standing. Prone is harder, but it sounds like I do the same as you, maybe cant the gun a little bit. As far as moving targets, I don’t put it on safe if I lose my target briefly, assuming it is very brief.

With all of those being said, the point is that I’m still connected to my sights if the gun is on fire. Non-dominant hand and awkward positions make it more important to put the weapon on safe, not less.


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So if you were in an engagement and reloading while kneeling around cover, you could orient yourself upright, pull the rifle off whatever structure you were on, and reload the rifle in the same manner you would as if you were standing?

Define brief for me? Is it measured in time? A guy zig zagging in and around cars. exposure here...exposure there....What if its a bad guy scooting through a bunch of no shoots. Do you safe it and avert your muzzle every time you are about to cross a no shoot?

My point in all this is the dogmatic approach of "always" being used to describe a technique. The totality of the circumstances and the situation must be taken into account when we do things. I think its funny, the guy this originated from in the civilian market, so avidly voices his distaste of dogmatic "must always do X range theatrics" but has bred a following of guys unable to think through problems and rely on a dogmatic approach.

[Wake27]

So if you were in an engagement and reloading while kneeling around cover, you could orient yourself upright, pull the rifle off whatever structure you were on, and reload the rifle in the same manner you would as if you were standing?

Define brief for me? Is it measured in time? A guy zig zagging in and around cars. exposure here...exposure there....What if its a bad guy scooting through a bunch of no shoots. Do you safe it and avert your muzzle every time you are about to cross a no shoot?

My point in all this is the dogmatic approach of "always" being used to describe a technique. The totality of the circumstances and the situation must be taken into account when we do things. I think its funny, the guy this originated from in the civilian market, so avidly voices his distaste of dogmatic "must always do X range theatrics" but has bred a following of guys unable to think through problems and rely on a dogmatic approach.

Again, I already said this. I rarely advocate for something as always or never. But we’re talking about engaging the safety, not some complex tactical scenario. I don’t see it as something that requires critical thought and non-dogmatic approaches. It’s super simple - if you’re not aiming down your sights, keep the safety on.


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[vmi-mo]

Again, I already said this. I rarely advocate for something as always or never. But we’re talking about engaging the safety, not some complex tactical scenario. I don’t see it as something that requires critical thought and non-dogmatic approaches. It’s super simple - if you’re not aiming down your sights, keep the safety on.


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And if im reloading while looking down my sights.....which has happened far more than bolt lock in the open reloads...

[Wake27]

And if im reloading while looking down my sights.....which has happened far more than bolt lock in the open reloads...

I’ve never actually met anyone that does that, so good for you I guess? Once again, I already covered that I don’t reload that way, which is part of the basis for my argument.


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[Wake27]

I know this discussion was about personal thoughts, but this video is related and Pat Mac is super entertaining.


https://youtu.be/Qjse5gepntE