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Keebsley
02-04-2019, 11:39 AM
So...I am a total newb when it comes to edged weapons and it's usage other than what I know from my time watching inmates go sewing machine on each other with self made shanks and the like. We all know that the Ban Tang clinch pik or the Chineseum pik clinch pik is the gold standard for use but my question is: are other piks just as viable other than the variance in length?

I'm asking as I saw the announcement of Craig's collab with JB Knife and Tool and was perusing and noticed that JB has other piks and the only difference that I can see with my untrained eye is length of both blade and overall. Yes, for concealment purposes, that extra inch can be an issue but other than concealability, is there any other disadvantage that I'm not seeing?

For example the Ditch Pik: https://www.jbknifeandtool.com/Ditch-Pik_p_1022.html

Or the Ditch Sakit: https://www.jbknifeandtool.com/Ditch-Sakit_p_1024.html

Thanks for any info you can send my way so I can do some more educating of my lack of all things stabby other than bloodying myself.

GuanoLoco
02-04-2019, 11:58 AM
I think the "ball" grip on the CP is a key differentiator from a concealment, comfort and usability perspective - I like it a lot.

Also, after a session with my Ken Onion Work Sharp the now 15 degree edge is pretty sweet/scary.

Wondering Beard
02-04-2019, 01:31 PM
So...I am a total newb when it comes to edged weapons and it's usage other than what I know from my time watching inmates go sewing machine on each other with self made shanks and the like. We all know that the Ban Tang clinch pik or the Chineseum pik clinch pik is the gold standard for use but my question is: are other piks just as viable other than the variance in length?

I'm asking as I saw the announcement of Craig's collab with JB Knife and Tool and was perusing and noticed that JB has other piks and the only difference that I can see with my untrained eye is length of both blade and overall. Yes, for concealment purposes, that extra inch can be an issue but other than concealability, is there any other disadvantage that I'm not seeing?

For example the Ditch Pik: https://www.jbknifeandtool.com/Ditch-Pik_p_1022.html

Or the Ditch Sakit: https://www.jbknifeandtool.com/Ditch-Sakit_p_1024.html

Thanks for any info you can send my way so I can do some more educating of my lack of all things stabby other than bloodying myself.

For their use as "stabby tools", there are no disadvantages per se, however the relation/angle of point to grip/wrist orientation may make a difference depending on the individual. For example, using a CP in reverse grip, I have to twist my wrist a bit to present the point straight. So, theoretically for me, the Ditch Pik would work just fine in reverse grip while the Sakit would involve bending the wrist, and both would be fine in forward grip.

There is another 'angle' (pun sort of intended), that of the utility capability of these knives. On a different thread (can't remember which), I commented and described in a post how the CP is an underrated light utility knife and that I wouldn't carry it if I couldn't use it in the light utility role. Looking at the two JB Knife and Tool knives you linked, the Ditch Pik has a very curved blade which could make utility work difficult while the Sakit has, for lack of a better term, a near reverse wharncliffe blade that should be excellent for utility work. Whether or not that matters is entirely up to you :-).

Finally, both blades are made of O1 steel which hasn't much protection against oxidation. That may or may not matter to you.

Keebsley
02-04-2019, 01:37 PM
For their use as "stabby tools", there are no disadvantages per se, however the relation/angle of point to grip/wrist orientation may make a difference depending on the individual. For example, using a CP in reverse grip, I have to twist my wrist a bit to present the point straight. So, theoretically for me, the Ditch Pik would work just fine in reverse grip while the Sakit would involve bending the wrist, and both would be fine in forward grip.

There is another 'angle' (pun sort of intended), that of the utility capability of these knives. On a different thread (can't remember which), I commented and described in a post how the CP is an underrated light utility knife and that I wouldn't carry it if I couldn't use it in the light utility role. Looking at the two JB Knife and Tool knives you linked, the Ditch Pik has a very curved blade which could make utility work difficult while the Sakit has, for lack of a better term, a near reverse wharncliffe blade that should be excellent for utility work. Whether or not that matters is entirely up to you :-).

Finally, both blades are made of O1 steel which hasn't much protection against oxidation. That may or may not matter to you.

Learning is occuring. I will have to look up the definition of wharncliffe and the like just so I can wrap my head around exactly what is being said but it makes "sense". I live in Idaho so oxidation wouldn't be that much of an issue as I'm not coastal but I do sweat like a stuck pig so might look at something else or just make sure they are properly cared for.

Wondering Beard
02-04-2019, 01:45 PM
A wharncliffe blade has a straight edge with no curve at all. Very good for cutting,

Example:
http://bladereviews.com/images/spyderco/img-spyderco-delica-wharncliffe-01.jpg

RevolverRob
02-04-2019, 01:58 PM
Each individual varies in their 'preferred' grips and knife shapes. If you have the opportunity, take Edged Weapons Overview with Southnarc first and there you'll be exposed to dozens of different blade types, such that you can explore many options simultaneously and get a sense of what you like and don't like.

The Clinch Pick works very well for me in reverse grip, but I'm the opposite of Wondering Beard in that I must cant my wrist to make a good stab with it in forward grip. More important to me though, the Clinch Pick is a knife that is sized very well for concealment. We can all carry bigger knives, I'm sure, but the CP is a near perfect balance of size, capability, and shape to conceal well and still work well.

As far as handle material, it's largely a personal preference. Right now the China-Pick I'm wearing has the handle wrapped in cloth tape to fill it out into my hand a bit more. I find the the egg-shape to be a bit too round and worse too small in its rounded form. I end up with the knife twisting in my hands. Several rounds of cloth tape thickened it up enough to limit twisting. The current generation Ban Tang Clinch Picks are near perfect with their flattened scales. Zulu Bravo Kydex is offering a scale flattening service that brings the production (i.e., "China Pick") knives in line with the current Ban Tangs.

___

As for the JB Piks, if you like 'em, get one. You can, literally, never have too many knives. For preventing oxidation use Renaissance Wax (https://www.amazon.com/Renaissance-XTL-8004-Wax-Polish-65ml/dp/B003AJWN62/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1549306609&sr=8-3&keywords=renaissance+wax) (that small can will probably last you the rest of your life). Works great and is fine for incidental food contact. I Ren Wax all of my blades.

Keebsley
02-04-2019, 02:27 PM
Each individual varies in their 'preferred' grips and knife shapes. If you have the opportunity, take Edged Weapons Overview with Southnarc first and there you'll be exposed to dozens of different blade types, such that you can explore many options simultaneously and get a sense of what you like and don't like.

The Clinch Pick works very well for me in reverse grip, but I'm the opposite of Wondering Beard in that I must cant my wrist to make a good stab with it in forward grip. More important to me though, the Clinch Pick is a knife that is sized very well for concealment. We can all carry bigger knives, I'm sure, but the CP is a near perfect balance of size, capability, and shape to conceal well and still work well.

As far as handle material, it's largely a personal preference. Right now the China-Pick I'm wearing has the handle wrapped in cloth tape to fill it out into my hand a bit more. I find the the egg-shape to be a bit too round and worse too small in its rounded form. I end up with the knife twisting in my hands. Several rounds of cloth tape thickened it up enough to limit twisting. The current generation Ban Tang Clinch Picks are near perfect with their flattened scales. Zulu Bravo Kydex is offering a scale flattening service that brings the production (i.e., "China Pick") knives in line with the current Ban Tangs.

___

As for the JB Piks, if you like 'em, get one. You can, literally, never have too many knives. For preventing oxidation use Renaissance Wax (https://www.amazon.com/Renaissance-XTL-8004-Wax-Polish-65ml/dp/B003AJWN62/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1549306609&sr=8-3&keywords=renaissance+wax) (that small can will probably last you the rest of your life). Works great and is fine for incidental food contact. I Ren Wax all of my blades.

EWO is on the long list of classes to take with Craig. I have large palms and short fingers so having something slightly longer is better for me as I tend to find smaller grips turn or twist in my grip. The Ditch Sakit looks like something I would be able to use effectively with my limited knowledge. Granted, that's why there are trainers to help the process along.

Cecil Burch
02-05-2019, 11:09 AM
the thing to remember about the CP is that it is purpose designed tool, and it is very specific. Everything about it, from the size of the blade, to the angle it should be carried at, is for a reason.

The shape of the handle was set up through a lot of trial and error to be as hand filling as possible while maintaining the minimum amount of material for concealment. And it was done in such a way that would cover most people. However, there is no way to cover everyone. People have too much variance to be 100% equal application. I have two students who are much bigger than average, and for both of them, the grip is a bit small. And I know of at least one student whose hands are too small for the grip to be optimal. If you need bigger, than take a look at the other options. One great one is Ban Tang's "Super CP". It is a tad longer in handle and blade.

One thing I would strongly advise the OP is that if you do not have a solid base in knife combatives, especially with a reverse edge knife and a point driven methodology, or you have not trained with Craig or someone similar (Chris Fry has a great one day course), than I would tell you not to buy any of the pikal blades. They are somewhat counter intuitive for the inexperienced and you may either not enjoy it, or build bad habits. I would advocate getting somehting that fills that role, but is more mainstream, and maybe is much cheaper. Here is a really good one:

https://www.amazon.com/CRKT-Minimalist-Bowie-Neck-Knife/dp/B0030IT76C

That way, when you do dive deeper into CP style blades, once you get the training, you won't have wasted money.

Wondering Beard
02-05-2019, 11:47 AM
the thing to remember about the CP is that it is purpose designed tool, and it is very specific. Everything about it, from the size of the blade, to the angle it should be carried at, is for a reason.

The shape of the handle was set up through a lot of trial and error to be as hand filling as possible while maintaining the minimum amount of material for concealment. And it was done in such a way that would cover most people. However, there is no way to cover everyone. People have too much variance to be 100% equal application. I have two students who are much bigger than average, and for both of them, the grip is a bit small. And I know of at least one student whose hands are too small for the grip to be optimal. If you need bigger, than take a look at the other options. One great one is Ban Tang's "Super CP". It is a tad longer in handle and blade.

One thing I would strongly advise the OP is that if you do not have a solid base in knife combatives, especially with a reverse edge knife and a point driven methodology, or you have not trained with Craig or someone similar (Chris Fry has a great one day course), than I would tell you not to buy any of the pikal blades. They are somewhat counter intuitive for the inexperienced and you may either not enjoy it, or build bad habits. I would advocate getting somehting that fills that role, but is more mainstream, and maybe is much cheaper. Here is a really good one:

https://www.amazon.com/CRKT-Minimalist-Bowie-Neck-Knife/dp/B0030IT76C

That way, when you do dive deeper into CP style blades, once you get the training, you won't have wasted money.

Agreed though one small point of contention: I have a couple of Ban's Super CPs and the handle is exactly the same size as the regular CP.

RevolverRob
02-05-2019, 11:48 AM
I’ll add something to Cecil’s point about RE knife use and going for a tradition Forward Edge design. If you intend your fixed blade to be a utility tool in any sense, go with a traditional blade. I know some folks find the Clinch Pick to be a good utility tool, I am not one of them. The design is very purpose driven and I don’t find it useful as a utility tool pretty much at all. I solve this problem by using the CP as a dedicated defense tool and carry a folding knife for utility purposes. But if you’re going “one knife for everything” approach, then pick a more traditional blade.

Cecil Burch
02-05-2019, 02:23 PM
Agreed though one small point of contention: I have a couple of Ban's Super CPs and the handle is exactly the same size as the regular CP.

Mine is 1/8 inch or so longer, as is the one my student had

Wondering Beard
02-05-2019, 03:03 PM
Mine is 1/8 inch or so longer, as is the one my student had

My Mk I eyeball has seen better days but I think there isn't even 1/8" difference here:

34907

34908

34909

34910

I wish I had gotten a longer handled Super CP. :-)

BillSWPA
02-05-2019, 07:52 PM
I’ll add something to Cecil’s point about RE knife use and going for a tradition Forward Edge design. If you intend your fixed blade to be a utility tool in any sense, go with a traditional blade. I know some folks find the Clinch Pick to be a good utility tool, I am not one of them. The design is very purpose driven and I don’t find it useful as a utility tool pretty much at all. I solve this problem by using the CP as a dedicated defense tool and carry a folding knife for utility purposes. But if you’re going “one knife for everything” approach, then pick a more traditional blade.

While a reverse edge is not ideal for most utility purposes, I would argue that the blade shape and setup of a Clinch Pick is perfect if you need to work the tip of the blade between a person you do not want to cut and an object that needs to be cut.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Totem Polar
02-05-2019, 10:23 PM
Not much to add that others havent covered, only better. But so long as we are discussing other pikal designs, I’ll leave this guy’s site here:
https://halloranknives.com/pikal

I just picked up his "short pikal;" same < 3.5 blade, but with a half inch less on the handle. FWIW.

Up1911Fan
02-05-2019, 11:00 PM
Not much to add that others havent covered, only better. But so long as we are discussing other pikal designs, I’ll leave this guy’s site here:
https://halloranknives.com/pikal

I just picked up his "short pikal;" same < 3.5 blade, but with a half inch less on the handle. FWIW.

Looking forward to my first Halloran. Should have an STX in a month or so.

Keebsley
02-06-2019, 11:08 AM
I’ll add something to Cecil’s point about RE knife use and going for a tradition Forward Edge design. If you intend your fixed blade to be a utility tool in any sense, go with a traditional blade. I know some folks find the Clinch Pick to be a good utility tool, I am not one of them. The design is very purpose driven and I don’t find it useful as a utility tool pretty much at all. I solve this problem by using the CP as a dedicated defense tool and carry a folding knife for utility purposes. But if you’re going “one knife for everything” approach, then pick a more traditional blade.

A CP or any other blade for defensive purposes would be for just that: defensive purposes. I carry a folder for every day utility tool purposes. I find it easier to have a dedicated tool rather than trying to press something into something that it's not meant for.

Keebsley
02-06-2019, 11:09 AM
Not much to add that others havent covered, only better. But so long as we are discussing other pikal designs, I’ll leave this guy’s site here:
https://halloranknives.com/pikal

I just picked up his "short pikal;" same < 3.5 blade, but with a half inch less on the handle. FWIW.

I've been following him ever since his postings on LF so I'll have to take a good long look at his pikal design as I have always loved his tuff.

Totem Polar
02-06-2019, 11:28 AM
I've been following him ever since his postings on LF so I'll have to take a good long look at his pikal design as I have always loved his tuff.

I’ll see if I can snap a pic with both custom/production CPs and a folder or two for size comparison when the weekend comes.

There’s also this Tony Lopes fellow to look into; I know absolutely nothing about him, myself, but Craig was showing off a few Lopes RE knives on his IG feed, and I certainly trust Craig’s judgement. Tony also answers emails plenty fast, considering the time difference from France, or wherever he’s at.

Check out the ‘nosferatu’ or the ‘skeleton...’

https://www.tonylopesblades.com

Keebsley
02-06-2019, 11:49 AM
I’ll see if I can snap a pic with both custom/production CPs and a folder or two for size comparison when the weekend comes.

There’s also this Tony Lopes fellow to look into; I know absolutely nothing about him, myself, but Craig was showing off a few Lopes RE knives on his IG feed, and I certainly trust Craig’s judgement. Tony also answers emails plenty fast, considering the time difference from France, or wherever he’s at.

Check out the ‘nosferatu’ or the ‘skeleton...’

https://www.tonylopesblades.com

Both the skeleton and Nossie look fantastic. I'm a nerd and I'll have to say I'm biased towards the Nossie for nerd reasons but also taking a look at it from a practical standpoint, I like the finger notch cut out in the handle quite a bit. Now, just have to figure out the conversion rate and shipping as well as get the funds...and pack more funds away to get to an edged weapon course.

Totem Polar
02-06-2019, 12:02 PM
Both the skeleton and Nossie look fantastic. I'm a nerd and I'll have to say I'm biased towards the Nossie for nerd reasons but also taking a look at it from a practical standpoint, I like the finger notch cut out in the handle quite a bit. Now, just have to figure out the conversion rate and shipping as well as get the funds...and pack more funds away to get to an edged weapon course.

Yeah, the name is just, no pun intended, killer. I think that one came to 280, shipped to the US, IIRC (I asked)?

Say, I see that you’re in Idaho? I realize that there’s a big drive between the south and the panhandle, but Craig is teaching his EWO class in Cd’A the weekend of Mar 2&3, and there might be a slot left. You won’t find a better teacher than Craig, or a nicer/more civil training group than the folks who I know are registered.

Except me. I can be a real pain in the ass... just ask any college dean. ;)

At any rate, if you feel like making the trip, there are plenty of cheap hotels, great food, and friends to be made. Plus, "shivworks ‘edged weapon overview’..."

http://shivworks.com/edged-weapon-overview/

Just saying.

Keebsley
02-06-2019, 12:13 PM
Yeah, the name is just, no pun intended, killer. I think that one came to 280, shipped to the US, IIRC (I asked)?

Say, I see that you’re in Idaho? I realize that there’s a big drive between the south and the panhandle, but Craig is teaching his EWO class in Cd’A the weekend of Mar 2&3, and there might be a slot left. You won’t find a better teacher than Craig, or a nicer/more civil training group than the folks who I know are registered.

Except me. I can be a real pain in the ass... just ask any college dean. ;)

At any rate, if you feel like making the trip, there are plenty of cheap hotels, great food, and friends to be made. Plus, "shivworks ‘edged weapon overview’..."

http://shivworks.com/edged-weapon-overview/

Just saying.

Dark Star Holsters asked if I was going to make it to that class earlier this year. Biggest issue has been funds as medical bills that have inconveniently imposed themselves on us. I swear my kids should live in bubbles. I'm trying to liquidate some gear in order to make it because Craig is the top of my list of trainers to go to and has been for years.

Totem Polar
02-06-2019, 12:20 PM
Dark Star Holsters asked if I was going to make it to that class earlier this year. Biggest issue has been funds as medical bills that have inconveniently imposed themselves on us. I swear my kids should live in bubbles. I'm trying to liquidate some gear in order to make it because Craig is the top of my list of trainers to go to and has been for years.

I hear you on medical bills: that’ll kill a training buzz faster than a visit from Nancy Pelosi. I hope it pans out somehow/sometime: you won’t hear me say anything negative about Craig’s coaching. Keep EWO on the list.

Up1911Fan
02-27-2019, 02:34 PM
I've got a custom one-off clinch pick coming from Ban Tang. It's not a reverse edge in keeping with my other blades.

SouthNarc
02-27-2019, 04:44 PM
I've got a custom one-off clinch pick coming from Ban Tang. It's not a reverse edge in keeping with my other blades.


It’s a super nice one!

Up1911Fan
02-27-2019, 05:54 PM
It’s a super nice one!

I take it you saw it last weekend?

Wondering Beard
02-27-2019, 05:56 PM
I've got a custom one-off clinch pick coming from Ban Tang. It's not a reverse edge in keeping with my other blades.

Pics man, pics!! :-)

P.S.: Is it the Ti DLC Forward Edge Recurve CP that Ban just posted about?

Up1911Fan
02-27-2019, 06:40 PM
Pics man, pics!! :-)

P.S.: Is it the Ti DLC Forward Edge Recurve CP that Ban just posted about?

Yes sir. Won't be here until Friday.

Wondering Beard
02-27-2019, 07:13 PM
You got yourself a great knife, congratulations!

Up1911Fan
02-27-2019, 07:27 PM
You got yourself a great knife, congratulations!
Thanks. I love Ban's work. I carry an SAF daily.

Wondering Beard
02-27-2019, 07:36 PM
Another excellent choice!

I have a few of those myself, though mostly reverse edge.

Ban does great work.

RevolverRob
02-28-2019, 10:30 AM
Yes sir. Won't be here until Friday.

I saw that on Instagram - that thing is pure hotness. Enjoy it.

PNWTO
02-28-2019, 08:03 PM
I have been on the fence about ordering a Ditch Pik from JB for two weeks now. I really like the Shivworks curriculum as well as the Libre "Reaper" stuff and get a good deal of utility use out of my P'Kal and China Pik.

Lately, thanks to Ed Calderon, I have been rolling with a Victorinox Fruit Knife in a pocket sheath. That is a tricky, but nasty little combo for a "pocket pik".

Up1911Fan
03-01-2019, 06:09 PM
Pics as promised of my new Ban Tang Ti DLC'd forward edge recurve CP. Wow that's a long name for a small blade. Shown for comparison with my SAF. Threw an extra DCC clip on the sheath for now. I have other plans for the factory sheath so as soon as I get back from vacation the blade will be going to Bladerigs for a sheath.

35694

35695

35696

35697

SLUZENE
03-05-2019, 02:29 PM
As an EWO alumni, and with previous training before, I want the most grip-able knife I can still conceal in my normal clothes. Anything very flat and thin, like with a thin cord wrap in the normal clinch pick position will probably not accomplish that for me. I really like the egg shape of the clinch pick, but I would love to get more time on ban tang's more flattened (yet still egg silhouetted shaped) clinch pick. I played briefly with the trainer and enjoyed it. IME, the silhouette, thickness, texture and shape all play a role as variables for access. I have usually L-XL sized gloves, so I would certainly like a slightly oversized CP, but I am not sure how well I could conceal it. Up1911Fan, that's a beautiful knife. I certainly want to move over to a double edge CP style knife.

The experimentation continues.