Trigger help

[cutt]

I have S&W 38 special hammerless revolver.I took my 25 year old daughter to the range for some shooting. The trigger pull on this gun is heavy. What do you recommend the pull should be. I need a trigger job, so what do you think It needs to be? One day it will be hers. I have know idea what it is now.

[HopetonBrown]

The 442/642 J frames are no fun to shoot. I'm sure your daughter is smart enough to work a semi auto. Keep the revolver and buy her a Glock/similar.

I'm always surprised at the amount of people who give non gun relatives extremely hard to shoot and/or crappy guns.

My neighbor was gifted by her father a Taurus M85 snub nose.

[Port]

The 442/642 J frames are no fun to shoot. I'm sure your daughter is smart enough to work a semi auto. Keep the revolver and buy her a Glock/similar.

I'm always surprised at the amount of people who give non gun relatives extremely hard to shoot and/or crappy guns.

My neighbor was gifted by her father a Taurus M85 snub nose.

I think that might be a little harsh. J frames might take some practice to become proficient with, but it takes much longer to learn how to clear a malfunction in a semi.

Here is my point. Not everyone who owns guns, are gun nuts like us who frequent forums and the like. Many of these people “learn” how to use their guns then leave them in drawers, safes or in this case maybe purses for a year or two, then practice again lol! When they do take em out, chances are, they’re going to need it. And that’s where a revolver really shines. It’ll still go bang.

Yes i’m assuming that a revolver at rest for years will outperform a semi that’s been at rest for years. I am but one data point. But If I had a daughter that didn’t shot much but wanted protection, it be a revolver. If she was going to carry it. It could very well be a j frame.

Anyway OP, have a look at:

Wilson Combat
Or
Apex

For spring kits. Google j frame spring kits. Read up a little. They work - good luck.

[HopetonBrown]

Not everyone who owns guns, are gun nuts like us who frequent forums and the like.

Exactly. And a S&W X42 is an expert's handgun.

How many people here have seen new shooters hit the ground in front of their stationary target with a double action J frame, or have absolutely no idea where the round went?

Name another firearm where the trigger pull is roughly equal in pounds to the number of ounces the gun weighs.

I absolutely guarantee his daughter wants nothing to do with that revolver, and shooting it was painful and disheartening.

[Port]

Exactly. And a S&W X42 is an expert's handgun.

How many people here have seen new shooters hit the ground in front of their stationary target with a double action J frame, or have absolutely no idea where the round went?

Name another firearm where the trigger pull is roughly equal in pounds to the number of ounces the gun weighs.

I absolutely guarantee his daughter wants nothing to do with that revolver, and shooting it was painful and disheartening.

That’s why he’s looking for a spring kit :)

[pangloss]

My j frame and my k frame both have DA pulls of over ten pounds. I'd guess that an 8 pound pull would be reasonable for a worked on gun, but I'm not a revolver guy.

Sent from my Moto G Play using Tapatalk

[Alpha Sierra]

The 442/642 J frames are no fun to shoot.
I have a 637 Airweight. It still has the original grips (rubber copies of Craig Spegel's boot grips). In less than fifteen rounds though it, the web of my right hand is literally cut and bleeding.

I have medium sized hands but they are tough from years of outdoors play and work, hand tool use, and weights. And they still bleed after three cylinders worth of 158 gr +P 38 Special.

They are the last handgun I'd ever recommend to a non-enthusiast.

HOWEVER, a K or L frame with a decent action job that leaves it 100% reliable, with a set of appropriately sized Pachmayr rubber grips is just what the doctor ordered for non-enthusiasts that want a pistol for self defense in the home or outside the home.

[HopetonBrown]

That’s why he’s looking for a spring kit :)Here's the weight of the trigger with an Apex kit installed.

The Lyman digital gauge maxes out at 12#.

And we still haven't addressed the fact that the sights are among the worst of any modern handgun. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190204/355705ae6fc190a93bf1b71686b3bf73.jpg

[cutt]

Thanks fella's for the excellant info. She own's 2 9mm's and a Springfield in .45. But she thought the 442 sucked. Everything that was mentioned above was spot on. So, do I need different springs( which ones) or a trigger job? She shoots the Springfield better than the .38.

[Alpha Sierra]

Thanks fella's for the excellant info. She own's 2 9mm's and a Springfield in .45. But she thought the 442 sucked. Everything that was mentioned above was spot on. So, do I need different springs( which ones) or a trigger job? She shoots the Springfield better than the .38.
Let me help you out Dad. She's telling you she wants nothing to do with it.

Do you think women can't decide these things for themselves?

[Joe in PNG]

Alternately, a K frame snub may be a better fit. My 10-6 is worlds better (trigger, comfort, accuracy) than my 36 ever was.

[HopetonBrown]

I think getting her involved in local club matches with one of the handguns she already owns and the two of you taking a quality 2 day handgun course together would be time and money much better spent than trying to make her hate the 442 a little less.

[Poconnor]

I would throw an APEX kit in and tell her to dry fire it to strengthen her hands. That will help her shooting with the other handguns too. Small easy to carry revolvers are very hard to shoot. I bought a colt detective special for an old girlfriend to use. ( back in 1992?) it had the pachmyr grips. she could shoot it ok for 50 rounds but after that it she got tired and it tore her hand up. She couldn’t pull back the slide on a Glock 19. She loved my HK P7. She could tear the center out if the target with the P7. She was average sized 5 5” 140 lbs but didn’t have the hand strength for many handguns. She told me she preferred the “modern convience of the autoloader” K frames with 38 wadcutter work well for for all shooters

[Stephanie B]

Let me help you out, Dad. She's telling you she wants nothing to do with it.

Do you think women can't decide these things for themselves?
^^^^^^^ This. Very much this.

[deputyG23]

Alternately, a K frame snub may be a better fit. My 10-6 is worlds better (trigger, comfort, accuracy) than my 36 ever was.

Or a 4" K frame if CC is not a consideration. 2" and 3" K snubs are quite pricey around here these days.

[That Guy]

I think that might be a little harsh. J frames might take some practice to become proficient with, but it takes much longer to learn how to clear a malfunction in a semi.


Are you quite sure?

Tap, rack, ready.
Lock, rip, rack, tap, rack, ready.

Was that really so complicated, relative to someone with little upper body strength building up their muscles to the point they can smoothly press a heavy double action trigger?

[Joe in PNG]

Or a 4" K frame if CC is not a consideration. 2" and 3" K snubs are quite pricey around here these days.

Everybody needs a K frame of some sort.

[revchuck38]

Everybody needs K frames of some sort.

FIFY.

[Port]

Are you quite sure?

Tap, rack, ready.
Lock, rip, rack, tap, rack, ready.

Was that really so complicated, relative to someone with little upper body strength building up their muscles to the point they can smoothly press a heavy double action trigger?

Don’t get me wrong - it’s a simple drill. But it’s one people who train for it blow under pressure.

I still maintain that the revolver is a great platform even with a heavy trigger pull if someone doesn’t train much. Or at all.

[HopetonBrown]

Don’t get me wrong - it’s a simple drill. But it’s one people who train for it blow under pressure.

I still maintain that the revolver is a great platform even with a heavy trigger pull if someone doesn’t train much. Or at all.

To say it's easier to become proficient with a j frame (can we quantify that?) than it is to clear malfunctions on a Glock seems fanciful at best.

[Joe in PNG]

To say it's easier to become proficient with a j frame (can we quantify that?) than it is to clear malfunctions on a Glock seems fanciful at best.

While a revolver may be easier to just shoot the shots on board with little to no practice, it's a whole lot harder to shoot accurately, or operate at speed without a whole lot of practice.

[cutt]

Very,very good advice. Thank you all for the replies. She is Annie Oakley with her CZ Makarof . However, if I had known the pit falls of this pistol I never would have bought it.

Thanks again



David

[medmo]

Very,very good advice. Thank you all for the replies. She is Annie Oakley with her CZ Makarof . However, if I had known the pit falls of this pistol I never would have bought it.

Thanks again



David

Wait, hold off on the regret. I’ve heard the “expert’s gun” term thrown around before. I don’t think someone has to be an expert to shoot it well but they need to know how to shoot a DA revolver. Spring replacements will reduce weight on the hammer and rebound and will make the DA much more reasonable. She needs an introduction on shooting a DA revolver. A little practice shooting DA will increase skill considerably. 20 mins of dry fire focused on the front sight and stroking the trigger smoothly, straight to the rear will go a long way. Smooth first and speed will follow with practice. Old school recommend is placing a quarter flat on top of the back strap forward of the front sight. Quarter doesn’t fall off through trigger stroke? That’s smooth. Perfect practice makes perfection. In my opinion this is a revolver with a contact to 7 yard range. It works well in that range if the shooter has an understanding of how to effectively operate the DA and has some practice.

[Speederlander]

Very,very good advice. Thank you all for the replies. She is Annie Oakley with her CZ Makarof . However, if I had known the pit falls of this pistol I never would have bought it.

Thanks again



David

It's not THAT bad. She needs to work on her grip strength, dry fire it for practice, and practice live with some lighter ammo. Try the Apex springs, dry fire it 1000 times to smooth it out. OR have someone work on it. Have her carry some federal wadcutters. I think too many people make the j-frames out like you need a Yale PhD in gun handling to have a hope. Not true. You have to work harder at them, but they have their benefits if you take the time to get some basic skill.

[cutt]

Thank you Speederlander and Medmo,I was not aware of dry firing 1000 times would help smooth out the action. Also with the quarter drill. It all makes a lot of sense. And improving her grip strength is always a plus. Especially for a young woman. Again thank very much, all of that replied to my thread. Also, I will check into replacement spring kit.

[Alpha Sierra]

Why are you so insistent in giving her something she clearly doesn't want?

[41magfan]

A good action job will improve the "shootability" of a J-Frame, but it will never rival the performance achievable with the larger framed guns; it's just a different animal. Spring kits will not get you there, so I'd just throw that money at the cost of an action job.

[cutt]

This my gun. She has2 9mm's, 1 .45. I am not going to give her a gun she doesn't want. We simply went to the gun range to shoot. Hell, when I die she can do what ever she wants to do with it.I am not forcing anything on her. We went to the range to shoot and I pulled out this pistol and asked her to shoot it and wanted her feed back. So, if see doesn't want it so be it. Thats cool. End of story.

[cutt]

A good action job will improve the "shootability" of a J-Frame, but it will never rival the performance achievable with the larger framed guns; it's just a different animal. Spring kits will not get you there, so I'd just throw that money at the cost of an action job.

Thank you 41.

[medmo]

Thank you Speederlander and Medmo,I was not aware of dry firing 1000 times would help smooth out the action. Also with the quarter drill. It all makes a lot of sense. And improving her grip strength is always a plus. Especially for a young woman. Again thank very much, all of that replied to my thread. Also, I will check into replacement spring kit.

I meant placing the quarter forward of the rear sight not the front. Placing it forward of the front sight wouldn’t work very well at all.

[cutt]

I figured thats what you meant. I thought the same thing after you posted. :D

[JimCunn]

I've got three 12.5 oz 637-2 J-frames chambered in 9x19mm.
DA trigger pull measures about 4 to 5 Lbs.
SA trigger pull measures 1.5 to 2 pounds.
Extraction and reloading of moon clips is quick and easy. Seems like a good choice for my newbie daughter.
Much easier to handle than my Micro 9.

[cutt]

Well, I'm ok using it as is. However getting a spring kit in the near future to smooth every thing out.

[JimCunn]

That will help. Also, an Arkansas stone on the rebound slide.
A ballpoint pen is ideal for manipulating the little spring in the front of the slide - the tool isn't needed.
Don't mess wit the sear.

[JimCunn]

"or operate at speed without a whole lot of practice".

That went over my head, please elaborate.
(not arguing, just curious)

[Alpha Sierra]

I've got three 12.5 oz 637-2 J-frames chambered in 9x19mm.
DA trigger pull measures about 4 to 5 Lbs.

If you can get a reliable 4 to 5 lb DA trigger in a lightweight J frame, you can get it in a K frame which is much easier for your daughter to shoot well.

BTW, how did you get it that light, and is it 100% reliable? PM me if you want.

[JimCunn]

"If you can get a reliable 4 to 5 lb DA trigger in a lightweight J frame, you can get it in a K frame which is much easier for your daughter to shoot well".

True, but shooting well isn't a prerequisite. Light weight, concealability, and convenient carry are. Also the ability to go bang with just a trigger pull.
Needs to be reasonably accurate at a distance of about 4 to 8 feet.

Re trigger pull, titanium cylinder to reduce rotating mass, Wolff reduced power springs, Apex reduced power firing pin/spring, and some smoothing of moving parts with an Arkansas stone. No work on sear other than some natural smoothing due to dry firing. On the three pistols, SA pull is more consistent than DA, at a bit over 1.5 lbs. Use 147gr 9x19mm jhp to minimise potential for cylinder face erosion on the titanium cylinders.

None of the three have misfired yet. I won't be able to realistically assess dependability till one does misfire.

I do note that it is important not to make the trigger rebound spring too light. If you do, trigger reset becomes either too slow, or problematic. Neither is desirable.

[JimCunn]

Post #34
Oops
I meant to say rear of the slide.

[Alpha Sierra]

"If you can get a reliable 4 to 5 lb DA trigger in a lightweight J frame, you can get it in a K frame which is much easier for your daughter to shoot well".

True, but shooting well isn't a prerequisite. Light weight, concealability, and convenient carry are. Also the ability to go bang with just a trigger pull.
Needs to be reasonably accurate at a distance of about 4 to 8 feet.

Re trigger pull, titanium cylinder to reduce rotating mass, Wolff reduced power springs, Apex reduced power firing pin/spring, and some smoothing of moving parts with an Arkansas stone. No work on sear other than some natural smoothing due to dry firing. On the three pistols, SA pull is more consistent than DA, at a bit over 1.5 lbs. Use 147gr 9x19mm jhp to minimise potential for cylinder face erosion on the titanium cylinders.

None of the three have misfired yet. I won't be able to realistically assess dependability till one does misfire.

I do note that it is important not to make the trigger rebound spring too light. If you do, trigger reset becomes either too slow, or problematic. Neither is desirable.

Thanks very interesting

[45dotACP]

I wouldn't do the "quarter trick" as I very much doubt that'll do anything but frustrate.

Just do some wall drills in dry fire. Then dry fire more. Then dry fire some more. Them load the gun with federal 148 gr wadcutters and carry it. Practice with wadcutters or (if you handload) make some reduced recoil loads.

If she wants to carry a snub then she'll deal with the idiosyncrasies of one.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

[JimCunn]

Although I've been shooting revolvers for over 60 years, I am self taught and shoot on the farm instead of at Ranges. Consequently I am quite ignorant about a lot of stuff that is old hat to the rest of you guys. What is the quarter trick?

When I was young and quicker than now, I would hold my forearm out level in front of me with a quarter lying on top of my thumb, and then drop my hand out from under the quarter, draw my Super Blackhawk, and bounce the quarter off the top of the barrel, but I don't think that is what you are talking about.
(BTW, at 76 I can no longer do that).

As an aside, the 147gr 9x19mm jhp chronos at 946 fps and 292 ft-lbs. About 50fps better than from a Micro 9 or P938 (I may have already mentioned this).