Dry Fire - Negative Effects?

[Port]

Backwards! Everything was backwards today. Shooting, my Glock 42, 43, and 48, I wasn’t doing very well shooting bullseye. Like at all. I got flustered and decided to do shoot Mozambique’s and mag dumps to elevate the stress. What the heck?! Those were all on target!! Beautifully on target. And I shot my 42 (.380) the best to boot! What the...

I honestly think I’ve been dry firing so much with my 9’s, that I went into my session today holding the firearms way to loosely. I have one of those LaserLytes that I’ve been practicing with quite religiously here lately. I think it’s made me forget to hold on tight.

What do you think? Does dry firing have any negative effects? Or did I just have a bad day?

[Dismas316]

Sounds like a bad day. Only way dryfire will have a negative affect is if your fundamentals are bad to begin with, in that case, all you do is ingrain bad habits and poor technique.

[GJM]

Dry fire is something that should accompany live fire not be a substitute for it. I don't think dry fire does good things for your trigger control or figuring how hard you should grip. I actually was gripping too hard in dry fire. I continue to learn all sorts of subtle things when dry firing, that might be not apparent with the recoil and noise of live fire.

[Alpha Sierra]

I don't think dry fire does good things for your trigger control
Ben Stoger would disagree. And I agree with him.

I agree with everything else you've said about dry firing tho.

[Norville]

Dry fire needs some live fire so we remember that the gun goes off, makes noise and recoils.

It’s a great tool for refining skills and staying sharp, but live fire is required to maintain true proficiency.

[GJM]

Ben Stoger would disagree. And I agree with him.

I agree with everything else you've said about dry firing tho.

I think this would probably be a good thing to discuss — the trigger control part.

I press the trigger all the time dry firing, just not on the clock when there is a tendency to short change trigger presses to make a time.

[Alpha Sierra]

I think this would probably be a good thing to discuss — the trigger control part.

I press the trigger all the time dry firing, just not on the clock when there is a tendency to short change trigger presses to make a time.

I think I understand a little better. Yep, it's easy to blow a good trigger press if the focus is 100% on making the par. But the thing that makes dry fire worthwhile is the self discipline to not blow a good trigger press (or any other aspect of good technique) just to make par.

I think that's what makes dry fire so difficult to do correctly and so frustratingly satisfying.

[HCM]

Backwards! Everything was backwards today. Shooting, my Glock 42, 43, and 48, I wasn’t doing very well shooting bullseye. Like at all. I got flustered and decided to do shoot Mozambique’s and mag dumps to elevate the stress. What the heck?! Those were all on target!! Beautifully on target. And I shot my 42 (.380) the best to boot! What the...

I honestly think I’ve been dry firing so much with my 9’s, that I went into my session today holding the firearms way to loosely. I have one of those LaserLytes that I’ve been practicing with quite religiously here lately. I think it’s made me forget to hold on tight.

What do you think? Does dry firing have any negative effects? Or did I just have a bad day?

Sounds like a bad day but a better question might be are you doing dryfire wrong ?

Practice makes permenant not “perfect”

Since you have fired before you should have an idea how hard you should be gripping. If you are dry firing so much that you are getting bored and /or sloppy then it is too much.

[Port]

Sounds like a bad day but a better question might be are you doing dryfire wrong ?

Practice makes permenant not “perfect”

Since you have fired before you should have an idea how hard you should be gripping. If you are dry firing so much that you are getting bored and /or sloppy then it is too much.

I think you are right - bad day.

And I think you’re right about getting sloppy too. I’ve been dry firing too much lately just trying to get used to my “new triggers.” I’ve been changing out the connectors and safety plungers on my Glocks and man, the difference has been so dramatic I’ve been dry firing just to get a feel on them.

So the answer is yes, there can be negative effects dry firing. If you don’t take it seriously. Like everything in life I suppose. Man... that was a little discouraging.

Thanks.

[GJM]

I think you are right - bad day.

And I think you’re right about getting sloppy too. I’ve been dry firing too much lately just trying to get used to my “new triggers.” I’ve been changing out the connectors and safety plungers on my Glocks and man, the difference has been so dramatic I’ve been dry firing just to get a feel on them.

So the answer is yes, there can be negative effects dry firing. If you don’t take it seriously. Like everything in life I suppose. Man... that was a little discouraging.

Thanks.

I find that the Glock trigger characteristics means Glock pistols require more live fire confirmation than any other type pistol I shoot.

[YVK]

I press the trigger all the time dry firing, just not on the clock when there is a tendency to short change trigger presses to make a time.

We can discuss next time I am in a good signal reception area. Trigger control can be worked out in dry fire. What Stoeger does is a steroid enhanced version of what Vickers had been doing in his classes for some, I am sure Wayne will remember the correct name of those drills, one was timed, another command. I've done some of that recently, it is very difficult for me. Recreating the honest amount of tension and force is the hardest part.



Does dry firing have any negative effects? Or did I just have a bad day?

The answer is yes.

[That Guy]

What do you think? Does dry firing have any negative effects?

I think that would depend significantly on how one dry fires.

I am always reminded in these discussions of the Rhodesian IPSC team, during a period of time when availability of ammunition was pretty much nil there. Preparing for the world championships, the team had an ammunition budget of a few hundred rounds per shooter per year. Obviously, a huge amount of training had to be done dry. The Rhodesian shooters did not win that year, but according to what I've read they did not do especially poorly, either.

Another example that pops to mind is the japanese gentleman who used to compete in USPSA. He lived in Japan so had no access to actual firearms for 11 months of the year. He spent a month per year in the US, live fire training for a few weeks before taking part in a big competition. Again, didn't win but by no means did too poorly, either.

Rather than stating that a certain amount of dry fire is "bad", a more important metric is the quality of the dry practice done. The more quality practice, either dry or live fire, one can do, the better. But sloppily practicing bad techniques is always bad, regardless of whether you spend live rounds to do so or not.

[JHC]

Backwards! Everything was backwards today. Shooting, my Glock 42, 43, and 48, I wasn’t doing very well shooting bullseye. Like at all. I got flustered and decided to do shoot Mozambique’s and mag dumps to elevate the stress. What the heck?! Those were all on target!! Beautifully on target. And I shot my 42 (.380) the best to boot! What the...

I honestly think I’ve been dry firing so much with my 9’s, that I went into my session today holding the firearms way to loosely. I have one of those LaserLytes that I’ve been practicing with quite religiously here lately. I think it’s made me forget to hold on tight.

What do you think? Does dry firing have any negative effects? Or did I just have a bad day?


Great advice offered to me for dry fire was "Don't cheat the grip!!!" Sounds like in live fire you gripped looser as you may have been dry firing.

[spinmove_]

Dry firing has negative effects if you don’t do it correctly. Grip, trigger control, and sight management are all very possible if dry fire is done properly. Along with that reloads, transitions, movement, and other skills can very much be done dry.

I don’t have GJM’s ammo budget nor do I have an uber awesome reloading setup that’s automated. So, for me especially, live fire is the CONFIRMATION that what I’m doing in dryfire is actually correct. If my live fire sessions start going south I know I’m doing something incorrectly in dryfire.

Based on what you said it sounds like you’re cheating the crap out of your grip. Grip the gun in dryfire the same that you do in live fire. Also, use the same amount of force on the trigger in dryfire that you do in live fire. Yes, your hands are probably going to hurt more. No, your sights will not remain perfectly still. These are signs that you’re probably doing things correctly or at least more correct and you can learn from there.

Getting training is rarely a bad idea.


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[Aray]

Great advice offered to me for dry fire was "Don't cheat the grip!!!" Sounds like in live fire you gripped looser as you may have been dry firing.

There are three times that I advocate holding the gun tight, very tight.
1) When firing the gun
2) When dry-firing
3) When in a ready position

If you are dry firing with a "don't knock the dime off of the front sight" grip (loose), you are training yourself to hold the gun with a loose grip. That is negative training.

If you are working trigger presses dry you should be smoked in about 5-7 min because holding the gun with firing grip tension is fatiguing. It doesn't sound like too much dry fire, it sounds like inappropriate dry fire to me.

[JustOneGun]

I think I understand a little better. Yep, it's easy to blow a good trigger press if the focus is 100% on making the par. But the thing that makes dry fire worthwhile is the self discipline to not blow a good trigger press (or any other aspect of good technique) just to make par.

I think that's what makes dry fire so difficult to do correctly and so frustratingly satisfying.


I found without the feed back of the bullet a timed trigger press during dry fire lied to me. I always had to be careful so that dry fire didn't actually become a negative for my trigger press. Maybe that's the self discipline part? But shooting two or three times a week seemed to keep me from seeing it as a negative on my times vs accuracy. When I retired and found a huge bucket list of fun, I stopped shooting nearly as much. What was something to look out for became something that really screwed up my ability. I no longer press the trigger under time during dry fire.

I suppose it just depends on how much one shoots vs dry fire, our individual talents and how we structure our training.

[John Hearne]

For me, the dry fire has two advantages. First, it takes a large volume of work to develop the motor skills to run the gun at speed. Whether it's draw strokes, or reloads, or malfunctions, building the skills to automaticity takes a lot of work, just volume wise as someone with less kinesthetic intelligence. Second, when it comes to trigger, you MUST call the shot anytime the striker or hammer falls. The largely unrecognized benefit of dry practice is that you can learn to call your shots without recoil. Recoil can hide nasty sight movement at the end of a press but dry practice will reveal it.

As already noted, you must maintain a strong firing grip when you dry practice. I figured that out real quick after a huge volume of work for Gabe's class and my subsequent poor initial recoil control.

I have also found some value in the laser based dry practice apps. I have been using the Laserhit app since August/September and continue to find it useful. You have to use their targets but the app will give you a time and call the shot for you. You can "fire" a round and call it based on the sights and then have confirmation from the app.

Finally, not trying to be an ass, but there are a ton of world class competition shooters and face shooters who swear dry practice made all of the difference for them. If it isn't working, you're probably doing something wrong.

[Alpha Sierra]

but there are a ton of world class competition shooters and face shooters who swear dry practice made all of the difference for them. If it isn't working, you're probably doing something wrong.

That's where I am.

[spinmove_]

I found without the feed back of the bullet a timed trigger press during dry fire lied to me. I always had to be careful so that dry fire didn't actually become a negative for my trigger press. Maybe that's the self discipline part? But shooting two or three times a week seemed to keep me from seeing it as a negative on my times vs accuracy. When I retired and found a huge bucket list of fun, I stopped shooting nearly as much. What was something to look out for became something that really screwed up my ability. I no longer press the trigger under time during dry fire.

I suppose it just depends on how much one shoots vs dry fire, our individual talents and how we structure our training.

I think that boils down to how HONEST you are when you’re gripping, pressing the trigger, and managing the sights realistically in dryfire. No you’re not going to have the recoil that you normally would, but you can actually see what the sights are doing when you’re gripping and pressing the trigger like you are expecting the recoil to happen.

Unless you are a human vice or you’re doing something to the gun to keep the sights PERFECTLY still during dryfire then your sights will absolutely be moving to some degree every time you press that trigger. The goal is to keep those presses in the realm of an “acceptable shot” for “the shot you’re trying to make”. If the front sight is leaving the notch when you press the trigger or the shot would go into the “wide C zone or D zone” on the target when you’re pressing the trigger, then you need to fix that. If it’s just moving a tiny bit and the shot would be an A zone hit or “close C zone” then you’re probably making good presses.

That being said, your dryfire needs to be balanced and include skills and handling of other things apart from pressing the trigger. Reloads, transitions, and movement can all be done appropriately without pressing the trigger.


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[JustOneGun]

I think that boils down to how HONEST you are when you’re gripping, pressing the trigger, and managing the sights realistically in dryfire. No you’re not going to have the recoil that you normally would, but you can actually see what the sights are doing when you’re gripping and pressing the trigger like you are expecting the recoil to happen.

Unless you are a human vice or you’re doing something to the gun to keep the sights PERFECTLY still during dryfire then your sights will absolutely be moving to some degree every time you press that trigger. The goal is to keep those presses in the realm of an “acceptable shot” for “the shot you’re trying to make”. If the front sight is leaving the notch when you press the trigger or the shot would go into the “wide C zone or D zone” on the target when you’re pressing the trigger, then you need to fix that. If it’s just moving a tiny bit and the shot would be an A zone hit or “close C zone” then you’re probably making good presses.

That being said, your dryfire needs to be balanced and include skills and handling of other things apart from pressing the trigger. Reloads, transitions, and movement can all be done appropriately without pressing the trigger.


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Ten years ago I would have agreed with what you are saying a hundred percent. Now I believe a few questions are in order.

1. How does one know what is an acceptable sight movement when there is no bullet for confirmation?

2. Can other people do it the same as you?


Can an older retiree who shoots 1200 rounds a year keep doing it? For this retiree I assure you I cannot. I suspect it was a negative the whole time I was doing it but just didn't notice. If I were to do it over again I would never pull the trigger quickly during dry fire. I would only do a few slow presses.


3. Does the ratio of live to dry fire change that ability? Can you get sloppy over time between live fire?

4. Does a person's ability change the answer?


As a retiree I can no longer do what I used to be able to do with a pistol when I was shooting between 12-20K dedicated rounds a year. Dry fire trigger work is just one of many things I had to change.

[David S.]

https://youtu.be/YpWaC0B2rNc

[BehindBlueI's]

There's folks better suited then me already answering, so I'll just add this. It's easy to get sloppy with dry fire. Pay attention to your concentration level. Personally, if I dry fire more than 10 minutes or so I start just going through the motions because my concentration is faltering. I saw better results from multiple short sessions then one longer session.

I suspect the pros are the pros because of their concentration abilities. They have the mental capacity and conditioning to do the boring fundamentals without that mind wandering or "going through the motions". They are the Larry Bird and Tiger Woods of their sport. Amazing ability to focus on fundamentals for long periods of time of dedicated practice.

[gomerpyle]

What Stoeger does is a steroid enhanced version of what Vickers had been doing in his classes for some, I am sure Wayne will remember the correct name of those drills, one was timed, another command.

The answer is yes.[/FONT]

YVK, would you be able to offer details on the trigger control dryfire drills that Stoeger and Vickers do in their classes?

[Alpha Sierra]

YVK, would you be able to offer details on the trigger control dryfire drills that Stoeger and Vickers do in their classes?

I'm pretty sure Stoeger teaches what's in his books, plus his personal coaching (which is worth A LOT). But just to see the kind of drills he teaches I'd pick up one of his books.

I think GuanoLoco has been to Stoeger's class

[spinmove_]

Ten years ago I would have agreed with what you are saying a hundred percent. Now I believe a few questions are in order.

1. How does one know what is an acceptable sight movement when there is no bullet for confirmation?

2. Can other people do it the same as you?


Can an older retiree who shoots 1200 rounds a year keep doing it? For this retiree I assure you I cannot. I suspect it was a negative the whole time I was doing it but just didn't notice. If I were to do it over again I would never pull the trigger quickly during dry fire. I would only do a few slow presses.


3. Does the ratio of live to dry fire change that ability? Can you get sloppy over time between live fire?

4. Does a person's ability change the answer?


As a retiree I can no longer do what I used to be able to do with a pistol when I was shooting between 12-20K dedicated rounds a year. Dry fire trigger work is just one of many things I had to change.


1.) That depends entirely upon your gun, the target zone size, and the simulated distance for your target. In live fire, you would set a target at a known distance and then put your front sight above your rear sight, below your rear sight, just to the right of your rear sight, and just to the left of your rear sight. At each of those sight placements you would do one shot to see where your shot lands. Mark where on the target that is. Do it all over again only put the front sight not as far out as you had previously until all of your shots end up in the A zone of your target. You now know your “acceptable shot zone” for your given distance at your given target size. Adjust this zone according to how tight the zone is and/or how far away your target is. Now in dryfire you have an idea as to how much zone you have to play with. You obviously want a 100% perfect hit every time, but you don’t always have to time to guarantee that hit.

2.) As long as you’re honest with yourself on if your dryfire shot was good or not, yes, you can do the same as I. Focus, be honest with yourself, and be mindful of what is actually acceptable.

3.) Can you get sloppy? Of course. Do you want to get sloppy? Absolutely not. Don’t get sloppy. If you feel yourself getting sloppy, stop and take a break. You don’t have to do this for 60 minutes straight. Do what works for you. The second you start getting sloppy is the second your practice begins hurting you. You can go extended periods of no live fire. You must be honest with yourself and not get sloppy.

4.) Depends upon what one’s ability allows or does not allow that person to do. If you can’t dryfire for extended periods of time then don’t. Do whatever time you can, but make it count.

I don’t always get to spend 30-60 minutes every day dryfiring everything I need to dryfire. Sometimes I only get 5 minutes of trigger pressing and transitions. Some days I get nothing. But whatever time I do actually get I make the absolute most out of every session because if I don’t then I’m practicing it wrong. Whatever I practice wrong, I hurt myself because I’ll get sloppy or have poor technique or learn the wrong way.


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[JustOneGun]

1.) That depends entirely upon your gun, the target zone size, and the simulated distance for your target. In live fire, you would set a target at a known distance and then put your front sight above your rear sight, below your rear sight, just to the right of your rear sight, and just to the left of your rear sight. At each of those sight placements you would do one shot to see where your shot lands. Mark where on the target that is. Do it all over again only put the front sight not as far out as you had previously until all of your shots end up in the A zone of your target. You now know your “acceptable shot zone” for your given distance at your given target size. Adjust this zone according to how tight the zone is and/or how far away your target is. Now in dryfire you have an idea as to how much zone you have to play with. You obviously want a 100% perfect hit every time, but you don’t always have to time to guarantee that hit.

2.) As long as you’re honest with yourself on if your dryfire shot was good or not, yes, you can do the same as I. Focus, be honest with yourself, and be mindful of what is actually acceptable.

3.) Can you get sloppy? Of course. Do you want to get sloppy? Absolutely not. Don’t get sloppy. If you feel yourself getting sloppy, stop and take a break. You don’t have to do this for 60 minutes straight. Do what works for you. The second you start getting sloppy is the second your practice begins hurting you. You can go extended periods of no live fire. You must be honest with yourself and not get sloppy.

4.) Depends upon what one’s ability allows or does not allow that person to do. If you can’t dryfire for extended periods of time then don’t. Do whatever time you can, but make it count.

I don’t always get to spend 30-60 minutes every day dryfiring everything I need to dryfire. Sometimes I only get 5 minutes of trigger pressing and transitions. Some days I get nothing. But whatever time I do actually get I make the absolute most out of every session because if I don’t then I’m practicing it wrong. Whatever I practice wrong, I hurt myself because I’ll get sloppy or have poor technique or learn the wrong way.



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So if I haven't learned to read my sights and call my shots, would it be harder to, "know" if I'm doing it correctly? What if I think I know what that looks like but am actually getting sloppy without even knowing it. While making fun of derp and people with severe cases of DK we forget that all humans have it. That includes you and I. We just try to minimize it. At that point could I be doing some harm to my ability to press the trigger?

Could I still do a dry fire routine and get a positive result without pressing the trigger at speed? Could I chose not to press at speed until I develop the skill to call my shots?

The reason I feel this is important to talk about is the old hero worship. I do this because, celebrity X does it. As an old retiree nobody I would humbly suggest this, "Just because X can do it doesn't mean you should do it." Sometimes the road we take to become good shooters has a lot of twists in it. Some of those twists are due to poor instruction, inefficiencies and personal failures.

I've come to believe that a more efficient road to being a great shooter is one third hard work, one third learning to cut out the useless practice and one third knowing WHY we do what we do to avoid introducing negatives into our training. Some of the things we do during early training is just dumb and a waste of time. Sometimes we are still doing those things. Sometimes the things we do actually have a negative effect and actually slows down our progress. We succeed sometimes in spite of this, not because of it.

We could say the same thing about teaching students. Just because someone is a tier 1 face shooter or an national champion doesn't mean they know shite about teaching people. They may have spent the last 20 years learning to shoot and thought 10 minutes about how to explain how they learned to shoot. I learned this lesson when a nationally recognized tier 1 badass kept pointing his M4 at me while teaching reloading with live ammo. Yep, I left and put a brick wall between him and I. As an instructor he was an unsafe idiot. He had not put in his stripes as an instructor.

[spinmove_]

So if I haven't learned to read my sights and call my shots, would it be harder to, "know" if I'm doing it correctly? What if I think I know what that looks like but am actually getting sloppy without even knowing it. While making fun of derp and people with severe cases of DK we forget that all humans have it. That includes you and I. We just try to minimize it. At that point could I be doing some harm to my ability to press the trigger?

Could I still do a dry fire routine and get a positive result without pressing the trigger at speed? Could I chose not to press at speed until I develop the skill to call my shots?

The reason I feel this is important to talk about is the old hero worship. I do this because, celebrity X does it. As an old retiree nobody I would humbly suggest this, "Just because X can do it doesn't mean you should do it." Sometimes the road we take to become good shooters has a lot of twists in it. Some of those twists are due to poor instruction, inefficiencies and personal failures.

I've come to believe that a more efficient road to being a great shooter is one third hard work, one third learning to cut out the useless practice and one third knowing WHY we do what we do to avoid introducing negatives into our training. Some of the things we do during early training is just dumb and a waste of time. Sometimes we are still doing those things. Sometimes the things we do actually have a negative effect and actually slows down our progress. We succeed sometimes in spite of this, not because of it.

We could say the same thing about teaching students. Just because someone is a tier 1 face shooter or an national champion doesn't mean they know shite about teaching people. They may have spent the last 20 years learning to shoot and thought 10 minutes about how to explain how they learned to shoot. I learned this lesson when a nationally recognized tier 1 badass kept pointing his M4 at me while teaching reloading with live ammo. Yep, I left and put a brick wall between him and I. As an instructor he was an unsafe idiot. He had not put in his stripes as an instructor.

If you haven’t done the work to read your sights on your gun at least to a few various distances, then yes, you’re doing yourself a huge disservice as you wouldn’t know what is and is not actually an acceptable sight picture. Without knowing that how could you press the trigger at speed in dryfire for an acceptable shot?

Without that knowledge you could get A LOT out of your dryfire routine still (especially if you had a timer) without pressing the trigger even once.

Figuring out your gun’s POI doing what I described above shouldn’t take more than a 50 round box or two of ammo at around at least two or three distances (like say 5yds, 10yds, 25yds). Given your ammo budget for the year vs how valuable that information is, I’d say it’s totally worth it.

I’m not sure where the “hero worship” piece comes into play here. This is stuff I’m recommending personally based on what I’ve personally put into practice and done and then seen the gains I’ve personally seen. If this doesn’t work for you, maybe someone else has a better method or technique. I simply am offering to you what I’ve found to work for me free of charge. Do with it what you will, I only hope it helps you in some positive way. What I’m suggesting isn’t rocket science nor is it anything new.


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[Alpha Sierra]

So if I haven't learned to read my sights and call my shots, would it be harder to, "know" if I'm doing it correctly? What if I think I know what that looks like but am actually getting sloppy without even knowing it. While making fun of derp and people with severe cases of DK we forget that all humans have it. That includes you and I. We just try to minimize it. At that point could I be doing some harm to my ability to press the trigger?

Could I still do a dry fire routine and get a positive result without pressing the trigger at speed? Could I chose not to press at speed until I develop the skill to call my shots?

The reason I feel this is important to talk about is the old hero worship. I do this because, celebrity X does it. As an old retiree nobody I would humbly suggest this, "Just because X can do it doesn't mean you should do it." Sometimes the road we take to become good shooters has a lot of twists in it. Some of those twists are due to poor instruction, inefficiencies and personal failures.

I've come to believe that a more efficient road to being a great shooter is one third hard work, one third learning to cut out the useless practice and one third knowing WHY we do what we do to avoid introducing negatives into our training. Some of the things we do during early training is just dumb and a waste of time. Sometimes we are still doing those things. Sometimes the things we do actually have a negative effect and actually slows down our progress. We succeed sometimes in spite of this, not because of it.

We could say the same thing about teaching students. Just because someone is a tier 1 face shooter or an national champion doesn't mean they know shite about teaching people. They may have spent the last 20 years learning to shoot and thought 10 minutes about how to explain how they learned to shoot. I learned this lesson when a nationally recognized tier 1 badass kept pointing his M4 at me while teaching reloading with live ammo. Yep, I left and put a brick wall between him and I. As an instructor he was an unsafe idiot. He had not put in his stripes as an instructor.

Do you want to learn or argue?

If you want to learn, buy, read, and practice what's in this book: https://benstoegerproshop.com/dryfire-book-combo-pack-dry-fire-training-reloaded-for-the-practical-pistol-shooter-paperback-book-and-scaled-targets/

If you want to argue, I ain't your guy.

[JustOneGun]

Do you want to learn or argue?

If you want to learn, buy, read, and practice what's in this book: https://benstoegerproshop.com/dryfire-book-combo-pack-dry-fire-training-reloaded-for-the-practical-pistol-shooter-paperback-book-and-scaled-targets/

If you want to argue, I ain't your guy.



What do you say? Been there done that. Talking about this stuff isn't for you or me. It's for those inexperienced that find PF to think about stuff. It's not an argument. It's just putting a little thought into a problem. Depending on where a person is in their development buying Ben's book could help them or totally screw them up. Or perhaps they buy a different champion's book that says the opposite?

So I'm not needing to learn much about dry fire. Been doing it for decades. But new people? Maybe it's helpful to put a little thought into it.

[Alpha Sierra]

What do you say? Been there done that. Talking about this stuff isn't for you or me. It's for those inexperienced that find PF to think about stuff. It's not an argument. It's just putting a little thought into a problem. Depending on where a person is in their development buying Ben's book could help them or totally screw them up. Or perhaps they buy a different champion's book that says the opposite?

So I'm not needing to learn much about dry fire. Been doing it for decades. But new people? Maybe it's helpful to put a little thought into it.

Your point of view on the subject of dryfire is diametrically opposed to that of the majority of people who use it to train and are miles better than both of us.

You've dismissed every single rebuttal made against your preconceived notion that dry fire while manipulating the trigger does nothing positive.

What that tells me is that you don't want an open minded discussion, but to tells us what it is.

[GJM]

Rob Leatham has a different approach then Ben, in that he doesn’t typically put on his rig and do formal drills like Stoeger and Anderson. What he does do, is constantly handle his guns, pointing them and pressing the trigger.

[scw2]

Rob Leatham has a different approach then Ben, in that he doesn’t typically put on his rig and do formal drills like Stoeger and Anderson. What he does do, is constantly handle his guns, pointing them and pressing the trigger.

Do you mind shedding some light into he presses the trigger when he's "dry firing" for practice? Is he pointing at a target and then pressing with the same speed/force consistent with match speed for the given target? Slow and deliberate to focus on the mechanics without regard to speed? A mix of both, plus other focuses on the trigger press while dry firing?

I do get the impression that Steve Anderson is a proponent of handling your gun a lot so it's natural, though obviously like you mention he has more structured drills to build that natural kinesthetic connection.

[YVK]

9
@YVK (https://pistol-forum.com/member.php?u=39), would you be able to offer details on the trigger control dryfire drills that Stoeger and Vickers do in their classes?

Ben doesn't do it his class. It is a variant of a wall drill except gun is pointed at a specific target. You cannot begin taking out the slack or prep the trigger. You have to grip the gun with realistic tension. The drill is to point the gun, assume the above position, and then at the signal complete your trigger pull before the beep's end. The goal is to do that and not allow the gun to move at all. When all conditions are observed (no gun movement, fast pull, and realistic grip) it is a much harder drill than one would think.

Vickers has (had, since it's been a decade since my last class so I can't claim contemporary knowledge) you pull the trigger at your pace and start time, then pull it at the command but your one pace, then pull at the command but compete the pull within specific time. If my memory serves, the time was much more liberal than beep's length.

[taadski]

Rob Leatham has a different approach then Ben, in that he doesn’t typically put on his rig and do formal drills like Stoeger and Anderson. What he does do, is constantly handle his guns, pointing them and pressing the trigger.


I’d guess Robbie isn’t still attempting to gain/build speed at this point in his career. He’s already very capable of shooting well at the speeds associated with the top tier in the sport.

I know that when I’m in a phase where I’m training hard to get faster, more structured practice with prescribed drills and definitive par times, etc. is very productive. When I’m in maintenance mode, skill-wise, and working on more match mode/on-demand stuff, I feel like I can do that effectively with less structure like you’re describing.

FWIW.

[GuanoLoco]

I'm pretty sure Stoeger teaches what's in his books, plus his personal coaching (which is worth A LOT). But just to see the kind of drills he teaches I'd pick up one of his books.

I think GuanoLoco has been to Stoeger's class

I think his best drill for trigger control in the latest clss I took was the Doubles Drill at 7,10,15,20 yards.

Dry Fire is effective - but you have to put in the work to learn to do it well, AND to verify it with an appropriatee level of live fire.

If you do Dry Fire poorly then yes, it will almost assuredly be counter-productive.

Stated a different way, efficacy is more a reflection on the Dry Fire practioner more than the act of Dry Fire practice in general.

[nwhpfan]

Backwards! Everything was backwards today. Shooting, my Glock 42, 43, and 48, I wasn’t doing very well shooting bullseye. Like at all. I got flustered and decided to do shoot Mozambique’s and mag dumps to elevate the stress. What the heck?! Those were all on target!! Beautifully on target. And I shot my 42 (.380) the best to boot! What the...

I honestly think I’ve been dry firing so much with my 9’s, that I went into my session today holding the firearms way to loosely. I have one of those LaserLytes that I’ve been practicing with quite religiously here lately. I think it’s made me forget to hold on tight.

What do you think? Does dry firing have any negative effects? Or did I just have a bad day?

It's really DF can give you a false sense of ability and expected performance so in live fire you expect to perform as fast dry...which you can't. Second part is the root of "see what you need to see" while remembering that seeing isn't just the visual input, but also the awareness of what your about to do and your ability to do it properly. Primarily pulling the trigger without disrupting the sights. DF should support your live fire and provide feedback to apply towards how you train in DF next time.

FWIW I will say that DF has innoclated me from recoil aversion, flinch, etc. becuase it's the overhwelming bulk of my training it has allowed me to focus on the positive actions I take only....drawing, aiming, pulling the trigger. There is no recoil, sound, flash, sound, so there is no consideration given. I simply draw, aim, trigger, etc. And then in live fire I do the same.

[GuanoLoco]

When I get in a really honest set of dry fire, then I can go out and hit the same times in live fire, with good accuracy, I know I am "On".

When I started dry fire, my live fire was never close to my dry fire times.

Why?

I didn't have enough experience going back and forth between the two to know when my dry fire was too fast & insufficiently honest relative to my live fire capabilities. Now I have a fair idea of how hard I can push in dry fire, and when I can replicate that same performance in live fire, I am ecstatic.

[RevolverRob]

I am a 95% dryfire practice guy. I don't have time to do much more than maintain skills and dryfire is my key tool for maintenance. For me - I've dry pressed the trigger on my guns probably 100,000+ times in the past 10-years and live fired less than 20,000 rounds in that time. Prior to that, I was shooting 500 rounds a week in competition for five years (that's about 25k a year compared to now about 2k a year). When I compare my accuracy past and present at 25 yards on a B6, my draw to first shot times, and my Bill Drills over that time (the only three drills I've consistently done in that time), I'm within 7% of my peak from my competition days.

I never do more than 15 minutes of dryfire in a session and never more than one session a day. I vary the time of day, lighting, and target selection and alternate between my actual guns and an airsoft trainer that replicates the feel, but not trigger press, of my live guns.

Sometimes I work exclusively one aspect of my mechanics if I feel they have weakened and sometimes I vary the drills. I never follow a fixed routine, because I prefer to problem solve and change things up, allowing my mind to be flexible with the gun.

I think the last part is really critical to my skill maintenance. Why? Because flexibility is necessary for problem solving and importantly, it allows me to not focus on a singular metric for success. Cheating the trigger press and the sight picture are the two biggest failings in dryfire I've seen and they come most readily, when the person knows precisely the drill they are going to do ahead of time and the timing of it. In other words, they start pushing themselves to achieve certain timer metrics and won't discipline themselves beyond that.

For me dryfire aims to maintain familiarity and build reps drawing and removing safeties and with clean press and sight picture. If you can't call your shots without seeing the bullet hole in the target, you're not yet confident or familiar enough with your gun. I know exactly where the bad and good bullets go. I know when I've hit the target or when I've missed. I do occasionally confirm it with a Laserlyte cartridge and live fire, of course, but the sights over target when I press the trigger are all the feedback I need.

While I do believe we should push ourselves in terms of speed when dry firing, I think the most important aspect is understanding what a good and bad sight picture looks like with a good and bad trigger press. You do need some live fire to know for sure what is good and bad - but you can always practice bad stuff, to see what it looks like.

Sometimes I push myself well past my capability in speed or precision during dryfire to deliberately fuck up. Sometimes I'll do it five or six times in a row, to get a sense of what my fuck up looks like. I like to make mistakes, when the stakes are low, so that I can get a sense of what mistakes look like as they happen. Sometimes I even deliberately practice bad things to build up muscle memory and then fix the broken mechanic. Why would I do such a thing? Sometimes in order to make gains, we must break down and re-establish basics and remind ourselves why we do certain things the way we do them. And sometimes we just need to remind ourselves what good and bad look like and that we have the ability to fix broken things.

That's my rambling thoughts on dryfire for today.

[miller_man]

Most of my best gains in the last year have come through dry fire and been fairly significant for me

- but I'm starting to understand most of it is coming from LEARNING, learning to PAY MORE ATTENTION and WHAT TO PAY ATTENTION TO.

That said, it is easy to go down wrong paths in dry fire, not know it and unfortunately spend a good amount of time there - don't ask how I know.

[Tactical Black Belt]

Sometimes you have to dry fire for reasons other than practice such as disassembly. My personal policy is to always look at the sights when I dry fire no matter what. That way I am aware of where the muzzle is pointed. Usually I aim at the floor where it meets the corner of the room. If God forbid, a round somehow made it into the chamber it will hit enough lumber to stop it, or at least go into the crawlspace under the house. Outdoors I aim at the base of a large tree.

The reason that I started this practice is that I witnessed an accident at the range some years back. A man removed the empty magazine from an old Star model B and pulled the slide back and forth several times to make sure that there was not one in the chamber. He then pulled the trigger and BAM! No one was hit but is shook us all up. After a while we found out why. The extractor hook was broken and did not pull the round out of the chamber.

[txdpd]

I'd wager that at least 95% of shooters one thing in dry fire (the ones that bother) and something completely different on the range.

Dry fire done correctly doesn’t put holes in anything.

Where the holes show up in the paper is a reflection of how well we execute and how consistently we execute, before the bullet leaves the muzzle. When we're shooting it's easy to fall into a negative feedback loop, we get focused on where the holes are on the paper, we divert attention from being fundamentally sound and consistent at the things we can control, and the result get worse. It's a mind game. There's no feedback in dry fire when we pull the trigger. We operate on the assumption that we're getting good results, whether we are executing correctly or not, it's positive feedback. When we dry fire, we don't get any results that can draw our attention away from dry fire. Imagine that you're trying to shoot a good group, the results are poor and the more your focus on where the holes are in the paper the worse it gets. Then you pick up the pace, quit worrying about the holes in the paper, because you're focusing on being sound at speed, the results improve.

Dryfire is very beneficial in that we have positive outlook on the results that we presume we are achieving, when we get the results it doesn't always work out that way, we tend to be very negative about the result. The results on paper are a validation of what we do before the bullet leaves the muzzle, if we are not seeing the results we want it's time to emotionally divorce ourselves from the results, and assess what we are doing or not doing, and making adjustments that are consistent to both dry and live fire.

[Alpha Sierra]

There's one concept that stuck out at me from Ben Stoeger's book on the subject: There are certain skills that you must know how to do correctly in live fire before you can use dry fire to increase repetitions on. Like sight alignment, trigger press, and grip. If you don't know what those three things should look/feel like in live fire, dry fire will likely train bad habits or be a waste of time.

Example: how much sight misalignment can you tolerate during a DA trigger press at 5, 10, 15, 20 yds? Only way to know is to fire bullets. Then you know what the picture should look like and should not look like during dry fire.

[LSP552]

There's folks better suited then me already answering, so I'll just add this. It's easy to get sloppy with dry fire. Pay attention to your concentration level. Personally, if I dry fire more than 10 minutes or so I start just going through the motions because my concentration is faltering. I saw better results from multiple short sessions then one longer session.

I suspect the pros are the pros because of their concentration abilities. They have the mental capacity and conditioning to do the boring fundamentals without that mind wandering or "going through the motions". They are the Larry Bird and Tiger Woods of their sport. Amazing ability to focus on fundamentals for long periods of time of dedicated practice.

Yep. I stop when my concentration starts to wonder. If you don’t, it’s really easy to introduce bad habits. This also applies to live fire. It’s time to stop when it becomes nonproductive.

[hufnagel]

Alpha Sierra wouldn't you just want to have as minimal sight picture error as possible all the time?

[Alpha Sierra]

Alpha Sierra wouldn't you just want to have as minimal sight picture error as possible all the time?
I don't think so. Not all the time.

I would think that an ideal sight picture is the one that lets you get the required hits as quickly as possible. Sometimes that would be a sight picture with "minimal error", sometimes no sight picture would be needed at all.

[Bart Carter]

Something that I dry practice is natural point of aim. Not just practicing aligned with a target or from the holster, but also around corners and from different positions.

If my natural point of aim is grooved, all I need to do is confirm my sights are on and press.

Only a few minutes a day and I can keep my groove. :p