.380acp , has the SD bullet choices changed?

[flux]

Regarding the previously recommended ball ammunition for SD, has there been any change as to what is the preferred choice of ammo for 380acp? Gun is my wifes G42, local choices are as follows
90gr brass solid @1000fps
Hornady XTP 90GR jhp @1000fps
S&B 92gr Ball.

Are non expanding bullets the way to go for increased penetration? Any advice would be appreciated.

[Galbraith]

A G42 is a very nice shooting pistol, with mild recoil, and exceptional weight savings. It is a gun that I can also shoot accurately out to 25yrds. The other choice often recommended for such a small and light pistol is a J-frame .38spl. At least for me, a J-frame is hard to shoot well, a huge PITA to reload, and loud as all hell. Plus, most of the time you have to use soft recoiling wad cutters in order to get a reasonable level of shooting control.

For me, I prefer to carry Federal 99gr HSTs. Yes, it is a little shy on penetration in ballistic gel, but I am okay with that. The longer "fast barrel" of the G42 gives the HST a slight penetration advantage over other small .380s. A micro .380acp, or J-frame is not something that I intend to engage a perp through auto glass, or other tasks better reserved for a proper service caliber. The G42 is a "get off me" gun in situations that I would not normally carry a pistol(running, family Christmas get together,....etc. However, it is a capable enough pistol that if I needed to dump mags into more serious threat I can better do that with a G42 than alternatives in the same weight and size class.

[LtDave]

The most accurate factory load in my G42, a Sig P230 and a S&W Bodyguard is .380 Federal Hydra Shok. I don’t expect much expansion. Seems to get reasonable penetration.

[Det1397]

Hi flux- a quick on P-F yields the following: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?31489-What-is-everyone-carrying-in-their-pocket-380 and https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?26401-I-have-always-despised-the-380-but and https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?13824-DocGKR-Your-380-vs-38-SPL-article
Hopefully this will help.

[sharps54]

Regarding the previously recommended ball ammunition for SD, has there been any change as to what is the preferred choice of ammo for 380acp? Gun is my wifes G42, local choices are as follows
90gr brass solid @1000fps
Hornady XTP 90GR jhp @1000fps
S&B 92gr Ball.

Are non expanding bullets the way to go for increased penetration? Any advice would be appreciated.

Out of those three go with the Hornady XTP, it should have better quality control and I believe DocGKR or Chuck Haggard has stated in the past that due to lack of expansion it tends to get adequate penetration.

[Duelist]

I use the XTP or flat-nosed ball in our pair of G42s.

[Totem Polar]

I use the XTP or flat-nosed ball in our pair of G42s.

This. I am partial to fiocchi’s loading of the 90gr xtp pill.

[lwt16]

I'm bound by department policy to carry nothing but HP ammo in anything I carry for self defense or back up weapons.....so FMJ is out for me.

I have found that both of my G42s perform well in the reliability and accuracy category with Speer Gold Dots in .380 acp. That load has several things going for it. I can get 50 round boxes for a reasonable sum of cash, they are a bit on the hotter side at 90g@990 FPS, I can run FMJ Lawman rounds that have a similar feel to them, and I have yet to have a stoppage with them in range sessions.

For me, I want these in order...

1. Reliability
2. Accuracy
3. Penetration

I never carry the .380 as a primary so if I am down to that, things have gone South with my primary pistol or either I can't get to it for some reason (groundfight). My G42s are carried so that I can get to them with the support hand if my primary hand is damaged from gun fighting or my primary hand is trapping my duty piece from a gun grab. Thus, my needs are going to differ from your needs by policy and the tasks at hand.

So choose something that runs well in your G42, buy as much as you can afford, and train with it on a decent basis.

Regards.

[cornstalker]

https://www.underwoodammo.com/collections/handgun-ammo/products/380-acp-90-grain-xtreme-penetrator?variant=7865927925817

Might give these and their +P cousins a look. They look good in the gel tests I have seen on YouTube and they function reliably in my G42. I am not aware of any high level professional testing, or results from actual shootings with them. Just the same, they are riding around in my BUG as we speak.

[TGS]

Federal Hydrashok in 380 has limited expansion into the .44"-.46" range, giving it acceptable penetration in bare gel.

With barriers it plugs up and acts like a FMJ.

Best option for 380, in my opinion. You still get the quality control and whatnot that comes with Federal duty/self defense ammo, as well.

[Port]

https://www.underwoodammo.com/collections/handgun-ammo/products/380-acp-90-grain-xtreme-penetrator?variant=7865927925817

Might give these and their +P cousins a look. They look good in the gel tests I have seen on YouTube and they function reliably in my G42. I am not aware of any high level professional testing, or results from actual shootings with them. Just the same, they are riding around in my BUG as we speak.

The Underwood Extreme Penetrators is all I carry in my 42. I’ve done informal testing on 2x4s, water bottles etc, and love em.

I guess after that I’d do the xtp’s followed by a fmj.

[DocGKR]

Some good choices here: http://www.black-hills.com/shop/new-pistol-ammo/380-automatic

[Clusterfrack]

Like Port, I'm carrying Underwood/Lehigh XP 90gr in my LCP 1 Gen2. They chronoed at 1023 fps.

[Gater]

Some good choices here: http://www.black-hills.com/shop/new-pistol-ammo/380-automatic

Doc, is the 100gr FMJ preferred over the 90gr JHP? Not sure what bullet type Black Hills is running in the JHP load.

[ST911]

Not sure what bullet type Black Hills is running in the JHP load.

Hornady XTP. Long conical shape, very feed reliable even in some otherwise wonky guns.

[Colt191145lover]

Hornaday XTP load in my Ruger LCP custom. It is not a primary and that load has proven reliable and remarkably accurate out of that gun.

[OlongJohnson]

If you go to your local big box store and open a bunch of boxes of .380 JHP, you'll notice that the 90gr XTP hollow point is much smaller than the rest. It seems to be the only one where they didn't just strike it with a 9mm design. Instead, it's tuned to open reliably but not as much, so it doesn't dissipate as much of its energy with bullet deformation, and it tends to penetrate farther than other HPs, while still opening.

Doc has indicated it still doesn't reliably meet FBI specs in correct gel media, hence his general recommendation for FMJ, but in all the testing I've seen, it's the most consistent and best .380 JHP in existence.

In theory, I like Winchester's (Browning is identical) 95gr FMJ flat point, but you need to hand select it at retail, because the bullet nose forms are totally inconsistent. A wider, flatter nose with a crisper corner is theoretically better for terminal ballistics, but also may lead to feeding issues in some guns. Also, Winchester brass is often wildly inconsistent and not to spec, so you need to carefully inspect every round for defects, especially in the crimping and extractor groove areas.

[Nightvisionary]

Hornady FTX Critical Defense and Sig V-Crown offered the best combination of penetration and expansion in Luckygunner's gel test.

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/#380ACP

[DocGKR]

And what relevance does that test have, since it used tissue simulant that has NO correlation with real tissue and that has been rejected by all major wound ballistic research facilities as being inaccurate? It is sad that the results are not useful, given the great visual presentation and how much work was otherwise put into the project.

[Nightvisionary]

And what relevance does that test have, since it used tissue simulant that has NO correlation with real tissue and that has been rejected by all major wound ballistic research facilities as being inaccurate? It is sad that the results are not useful, given the great visual presentation and how much work was otherwise put into the project.

What other body of recent test data do we have to refer to that is freely available to the users of this forum?

[Shawn Dodson]

All the Hornady .380 XTPs I tested had the expanded petals shear off, in both bare gelatin and denim covered gelatin, which is what allows the bullet to penetrate deeper than most other .380 JHPs. The recovered bullet looks similar to a wadcutter. Hornady factory loaded XTP is what I carry in my G42.

[DocGKR]

This was another eval which seemed reasonable: http://shootingthebull.net/blog/final-results-of-the-380-acp-ammo-quest/#comment-34323

[Velo Dog]

What other body of recent test data do we have to refer to that is freely available to the users of this forum?

AmmoToGo.com has conducted testing similar to that of Lucky Gunner.

https://www.ammunitiontogo.com/lodge/best-self-defense-ammo/

380 Auto performance is so marginal and inconsistent that a small change in velocity or the testing protocol can significantly affect results.

[JonInWA]

Color me curious, guys. With the current amount of what seem to be pretty decent subcompact 9mm autos, such as the G43, G43X, G48, M&P Shield etc. and what seems to be pretty marginal and/or variable .380 performance, why the continued interest (in this forum in particular) in .380 platforms?

I get that the Glock G42 (and perhaps others in the genre) is handy, reliable, and enjoyable to shoot. I get that perhaps .380 is the highest power cartridge some of us can convince significant others to use/carry. But with a generally low expectation of terminal performance, why bother? And ammunition price-and availability-wise, it's not like I'm seeing huge bargains in .380 as a financial incentive either.

Best, Jon

[Clusterfrack]

JonInWA, good question. You explained why the G42 isn’t of interest to me. It’s too big to justify the shortcomings of a .380. But the LCP is small. Really small. Sometimes I need a really small gun.

[TGS]

Color me curious, guys. With the current amount of what seem to be pretty decent subcompact 9mm autos, such as the G43, G43X, G48, M&P Shield etc. and what seems to be pretty marginal and/or variable .380 performance, why the continued interest (in this forum in particular) in .380 platforms?

I get that the Glock G42 (and perhaps others in the genre) is handy, reliable, and enjoyable to shoot. I get that perhaps .380 is the highest power cartridge some of us can convince significant others to use/carry. But with a generally low expectation of terminal performance, why bother? And ammunition price-and availability-wise, it's not like I'm seeing huge bargains in .380 as a financial incentive either.

Best, Jon

My only answer is that marginal might be good enough if the other option is not having that gun, and you end up needing it.

For this forum in particular, I typically see people writing about making responsible decisions; i.e. carrying a 380 in an NPE, or using it as a BUG. Their other option would likely be unarmed, or not having a BUG.

The G43, G43X, G48, and M&P Shield are nowhere near the same size category as a micro/pocket 380.

[GAP]

Color me curious, guys. With the current amount of what seem to be pretty decent subcompact 9mm autos, such as the G43, G43X, G48, M&P Shield etc. and what seems to be pretty marginal and/or variable .380 performance, why the continued interest (in this forum in particular) in .380 platforms?

I get that the Glock G42 (and perhaps others in the genre) is handy, reliable, and enjoyable to shoot. I get that perhaps .380 is the highest power cartridge some of us can convince significant others to use/carry. But with a generally low expectation of terminal performance, why bother? And ammunition price-and availability-wise, it's not like I'm seeing huge bargains in .380 as a financial incentive either.

Best, Jon

Almost no one on here carries one as a primary. They are only interesting because you can fit them in a pocket.

I’ve learned that there are two camps: those who always dress around the gun and those who pick the gun based on how they’re dressed.

The problem arises, when one camp tries to tell the other camp, what they should do.

[fatdog]

JonInWA, the LCP is small. Really small.

And they actually will run reliably and let you hit something with a little work. That is the only .380 I currently own, and Clusterfrack articulated the only reason I own it.

[JodyH]

JonInWA, good question. You explained why the G42 isn’t of interest to me. It’s too big to justify the shortcomings of a .380. But the LCP is small. Really small. Sometimes I need a really small gun.
I went back and forth on the G42 for a while and ended up sticking it in the back of the safe.
My Kahr PM9 is almost identical in size (actually a fraction smaller), is 6+1 9mm and has a better trigger for pocket carry IMO.
My Kahr CW380 is much smaller and lighter than the G42 if I need to go real deep, is 6+1 and again IMO has a better deep carry trigger.
The extra safety margin of a longer DAO revolver like trigger is worth it to me when it comes to unconventional carry methods.
Both my Kahrs have been outstanding.

On .380 ammo, I really like what i've seen from the Federal 99gr. HST and it's been reliable in both my G42 and my CW380. Fairly soft shooting as well, even in the Kahr.
My plan "B" ammo when I can't find the HST is Hornady American Gunner 90gr. XTP which can be found damn near everywhere stacked deep and cheap.

[LockedBreech]

@JonInWA (https://pistol-forum.com/member.php?u=521), good question. You explained why the G42 isn’t of interest to me. It’s too big to justify the shortcomings of a .380. But the LCP is small. Really small. Sometimes I need a really small gun.

Yep. I have a pair of LCPs and that's it for .380 as a serious gun. I do own a Beretta Cheetah and Bersa Thunder because I think they're neat, but they don't get carried.

.380 = LCP to me.

[JonInWA]

At one point, I had a CZ 83, (actually, two-the first one in .380, which was unreliable, and quickly disposed of, and the second one, in 9 X 18 Makarov, (one of the first commercial ones imported by the then new CZ USA organization) which was exceptionally accurate {polygonal barrel helped} and reliable. with a very nice DA/SA triggerpull. The problem was, outside of it being a "neat" gun and a nice period piece, I had something as large as a Glock G19, in a less powerful, far less effective and more expensive caliber, with a more complex architecture. After several years of enjoying it, it became trade bait, I believe for my Glock G21.

In some ways I do miss it a bit, but not at all from a pragmatic point. Other that from and aesthetic and sheer enjoyment/appreciation standpoint, it had become obsolescent to my needs.

Best, Jon

[Shawn Dodson]

Color me curious, guys. With the current amount of what seem to be pretty decent subcompact 9mm autos, such as the G43, G43X, G48, M&P Shield etc. and what seems to be pretty marginal and/or variable .380 performance, why the continued interest (in this forum in particular) in .380 platforms?

I get that the Glock G42 (and perhaps others in the genre) is handy, reliable, and enjoyable to shoot. I get that perhaps .380 is the highest power cartridge some of us can convince significant others to use/carry. But with a generally low expectation of terminal performance, why bother? And ammunition price-and availability-wise, it's not like I'm seeing huge bargains in .380 as a financial incentive either.

Best, Jon

I have several CCW pistols, each one has it's own purpose. I carry a Seecamp .32 ACP when I want to run a quick errand and I can drop it in my jeans front pocket and walk out the door. I carry a Glock 42 .380 ACP in the front pocket of my shorts during the summer. Both the Seecamp and G42 are pocket carry only, always in a pocket holster. I carry a G43 9mm in an OWB holster at 3 o'clock. It conceals very well under a t-shirt. The G43 is my primary 9mm carry gun. I also carry on occasion a G19 or a G26 if I want larger capacity magazine (such as going to a movie theatre). Finally I carry concealed an 11.5" 5.56mm AR pistol in a small unobtrusive backpack when we go to Seattle or take a road trip. I'm always armed when I leave the house. Having this many choices allows me to tailor my gun to the situation.