PCC vs CO vs Open pistol (times)

[strow]

How do the scores and times compare on the same course of fire between PCC, Carry Optics, and Open pistol? Assuming the same course of fire or standars and the same class of shooter?

How much advantage does the PCC offer over a CO pistol or full blown race gun with GM class shooters?

Has anyone looked at the scores comparing these? I am just curious.

I would assume that the PCC would be more of an advantage to the C and B class shooters. And that the GM PCC and Open times would be pretty similar on the same COF. This is just a guess and I am sure you could build stages to skew the data.

[GJM]

How do the scores and times compare on the same course of fire between PCC, Carry Optics, and Open pistol? Assuming the same course of fire or standars and the same class of shooter?

How much advantage does the PCC offer over a CO pistol or full blown race gun with GM class shooters?

Has anyone looked at the scores comparing these? I am just curious.

I would assume that the PCC would be more of an advantage to the C and B class shooters. And that the GM PCC and Open times would be pretty similar on the same COF. This is just a guess and I am sure you could build stages to skew the data.

I don’t believe your question is answerable as posed.

Shooting a good match in CO, against the same group of local shooters with multiple GM PCC shooters, I will range from 65-95 percent of high overall. It really does depend on the course design.

In Steel Challenge, where I am the same class in CO and PCC, the difference in my times is basically the difference between starting from low ready vs a surrender draw. However that is one shot per target for and relatively easy targets, where the ease of transitioning the pistol negates the splitting advantage of the PCC.

[CleverNickname]

PCC will have an advantage over handguns in some short courses. For example, in an El Presidente, PCC's don't have to start facing uprange, and they start at low ready. Not turning or drawing can take a bit off the raw time. PCC will be at a disadvantage where there's stuff like tight leans around barriers where the longer gun is more difficult to maneuver, so if a particular course is weighted towards that then PCC will be at a disadvantage.

[YVK]

This depends on a course of fire more so than classification. GJM and myself had this conversation a couple of days earlier. If the whole match is set correctly and things even out, generally better shooters win. A single course of fire, not so much. If most of COF targets are closely spaced, not a whole lot of movement, nothing awkward, short hosing stages, I've seen C/B class shooters put in times with PCC that would be same or faster as M/GM with handguns. Change it to unloaded start, put in a bunch of barricades with left/right leans, low port, long running distances, things go the other way.

[strow]

GJM, that is what I was looking for! Thank you!

Your Steel Challenge times are interesting. If you shot the same steel challenge COF but incrementally increased the distance, at what do you think the CO would start to suffer? Again just a wild guess.

[olstyn]

It really does depend on the course design.

This. ^

If there are a lot of tight walls to maneuver around, PCC is going to be more awkward, and PCC shooters will lose time vs pistol shooters. If the course design is more open and/or includes long distance shots, then the fact that a long gun has 3 points of contact with the shooter and is inherently easier to shoot fast while maintaining accuracy will come into play more.

[GJM]

GJM, that is what I was looking for! Thank you!

Your Steel Challenge times are interesting. If you shot the same steel challenge COF but incrementally increased the distance, at what do you think the CO would start to suffer? Again just a wild guess.

Think of the hot/crazy matrix, but substitute accuracy/transitions. This distance will vary by shooter, but at some point the ease of hitting with a PCC trumps their slower transitions.

[jwhitt]

Generally, Open GMs will beat out PCC and CO shooters of equal classification. This may be because: (1) making GM in Open generally requires more skill than making GM in PCC (no offense PCC), (2) Open gets major PF scoring, and/or (3) Open guns are more maneuverable than rifles, especially on tight stages. Depending on the stage design and number of reloads, CO and PCC shooters of equal classification could be a toss up as they are both scored minor, use optics, and have hi cap mags. A quick review of USPSA practiscore results will typically confirm this observation. I cant speak for steel challenge or IDPA though.

[GJM]

Generally, Open GMs will beat out PCC and CO shooters of equal classification. This may be because: (1) making GM in Open generally requires more skill than making GM in PCC (no offense PCC), (2) Open gets major PF scoring, and/or (3) Open guns are more maneuverable than rifles, especially on tight stages. Depending on the stage design and number of reloads, CO and PCC shooters of equal classification could be a toss up as they are both scored minor, use optics, and have hi cap mags. A quick review of USPSA practiscore results will typically confirm this observation. I cant speak for steel challenge or IDPA though.

I think it really does depend on the stages.

Here is 2018 area 2, where Max Leograndis won in PCC and the first Open shooter was 92 percent.

https://practiscore.com/results/new/69654

At the 2018 Optics Nationals, Max Leograndis was quite close despite totally trashing three stages. Note that first CO was Max Michel at only 82 percent.

https://practiscore.com/results/new/68331?q_individual=0

In Steel Challenge, the fastest division is rimfire pistol, because you can transition the pistol easier than a rimfire long gun.

[taadski]

Some additional data points from last year...

Area 1 First PCC was 90% of open winner
Area 3 First PCC was 87% of open winner
Area 4 First PCC was 88% of open winner
Area 6 First PCC was 91% of open winner
Area 7 First PCC was 87% of open winner
Area 8 First PCC was 78% of open winner

Similar trend in State championship matches in 2018 and in the 2019 Florida State match that was held this month. FWIW.

[GJM]

Some additional data points from last year...

Area 1 First PCC was 90% of open winner
Area 3 First PCC was 87% of open winner
Area 4 First PCC was 88% of open winner
Area 6 First PCC was 91% of open winner
Area 7 First PCC was 87% of open winner
Area 8 First PCC was 78% of open winner

Similar trend in State championship matches in 2018 and in the 2019 Florida State match that was held this month. FWIW.

Was Leograndis at any of those matches?

[taadski]

Was Leograndis at any of those matches?


No, I don't think so. And neither were the other Max or Grauffel. ;)

But represented are the top talent in the respective divisions being discussed across EVERY OTHER AREA MATCH LAST YEAR. Seems telling. FWIW, I think Leograndis is so good he's a bit of an outlier. In the same way Michel is.

Anyway, just some additional data.

[GJM]

No, I don't think so. And neither were the other Max or Grauffel. ;)

But represented are the top talent in the respective divisions being discussed across EVERY OTHER AREA MATCH LAST YEAR. Seems telling. FWIW, I think Leograndis is so good he's a bit of an outlier. In the same way Michel is.

Anyway, just some additional data.

I assume the best shooters in PCC and Open were at Optics Nationals in 2018, and 3 of the top 7 there were PCC, finishing 2,5 and 7th overall. I do think that Open has a slight advantage, but it is very much stage design dependent. Another factor is there were 46 Open GM’s and only 20 PCC GM’s at Nationals, so the PCC guys did especially well given they were half as many GM’s competing as Open. Further, if the best Open shooters instead competed in PCC, I bet the numbers would go even more towards PCC, especially given how new PCC is.

[strow]

Thank you all for the replies and data! That is exactly what I was looking for.

I would have guessed the carbine would have offered more of an advantage that the scores reflect!

[GJM]

Thank you all for the replies and data! That is exactly what I was looking for.

I would have guessed the carbine would have offered more of an advantage that the scores reflect!

At the lower classifications, I think the carbine does offer a significant advantage, because the carbine does not require a good draw, good reload, recoil control, and the same trigger control as with a pistol. The very best shooters possess all those skills but many in lower classifications do not. In terms of overall, I think PCC is worth 20-30 percent higher in overall placement than for the same shooter in Limited.

[jwhitt]

I would posit that Max L is an anomaly and not representative of the skill level of a typical PCC shooter at the M/GM level (note the amount of 100% classifications achieved on the short hisstory of PCC: https://uspsa.org/top20). Max L was still almost 7% behind JJ, which is a pretty substantial gap for a nationals, albeit still a great performance. Other PCC shooters in the top 20 like, Todd J, Naim S etc are already multi division GMs, so not quite typical of the PCC field either. If the question is whether a person who is already a GM in a pistol division, (exuding anomalies like Max L - who is also a PROD GM) switches over to PCC, how would match scores compare?, that would be interesting to explore. I would guess that a pistol GM could adapt pretty quickly to a rifle; conversely, I doubt most PCC-only GM/Ms could perform at the same level with a pistol. Not to make this a tangential thread, but as a general rule, Open GMs will probably continue to dominate USPSA in most circumstances. I think the 2018 Area 6 is pretty representative of this thesis (Max L or Lena M weren't there): https://practiscore.com/results/new/54465. The only PCC shooter in the top 10 was an M class (Shannon Smith/7-division GM and 94.6 in PCC), the other PCC-only GMs came in at around 78-77% and behind the top 2 CO and 2 production shooters. To be clear, I am not anti-PCC, even if they are a pain to RO with their super-quiet guns that only register on shot timers set to airsoft sensitivity ;).

[GJM]

Seems like there are two different questions going here:

1) how does PCC stack up against Open, when the competitors have equal skill.

and

2) what is the skill level of the typical Open GM compared to the skill level of the typical PCC GM.

On question 1, as I have said previously, I think it is very stage dependent. To test this, you would have to take some shooters equally skilled in Open and PCC, and run a bunch of stages to compare their results. JJ told me that he, Eric G and Max Michel made an agreement to not shoot PCC, so it would probably have to be Todd Jarrett.

On question 2, I think on average, an Open GM possesses much higher skill than a PCC GM. Until 2018*, PCC used the same classifiers as Open, and certain classifiers were much easier with a carbine than a pistol, and vice versa. Depending upon the particular classifier, someone with less developed pistol skills could shoot high classifiers in PCC. Interestingly, until recently Carry Optics was the opposite, and it was almost impossible to move up. For the longest time, there was no “top 20” of CO, because we only had a handful of GM’s nationwide.

[jwhitt]

Since we went there, and it is somewhat relevant to the original question - after the 2018 classifier updates it appears that on average: Open got harder, PCC remained unchanged (old open numbers), Limited got harder, CO remained mostly unchanged (generally old limited numbers), Production got harder (elevated to old limited/CO numbers), and single stack remained mostly unchanged (old limited numbers). This means that we will continue to see lots of PCC GMs in the future and the disparity between an Open and PCC GM got even wider. It also means that CO, Production, and Single Stack are all about the same now. So all things being equal, advantage goes to PCC, SS Major, and Carry Optics with the new HFs. Carry optics is just as hard as it always was, just not relatively speaking anymore. The exception for CO is the new 18 series classifiers. The CO numbers were based on the production versus limited HHFs at nationals, so I assume they will be adjusted up in the future. Bottom line - Production, Limited, and Open are very difficult now. Benos has a long thread detailing this information.

[euxx]

It's been asked how to compare different divisions for steel challenge. Assumption is that you can't compare times as is, so we been asked to compare percentages of per-division classifier peak times and then aggregate them to overall level (if match has only standard stages). So, this is called "High Peak" in PractiScore Competitor app.

I suppose I could do the same for uspsa stages and classifier-only uspsa matches.

[bofe954]

I think USPSA matches in general will reward open vs PCC, unless someone decides to go out of their way to make a PCC friendly match. 25-35 yards is a long shot in a USPSA match and that is not long enough to give a big advantage of a PCC vs an open gun. USPSA pushes difficult shooting positions, and this also favors open.

The trend seems to be PCC's becoming more like open guns.

CO will always take a hit compared to both open and PCC due to magazine capacity and minor scoring.

[GJM]

PCC guy set up a stage at our local club match last weekend. Required about 40 shots for most shooters, because of challenging steel (small, Texas star, etc.). The start position was loaded but all reloads had to come off barrels located about 15 feet from shooting areas. PCC guy started with 57 rounds and never touched a mag on a barrel. Think that might have been PCC friendly. :confused:

[olstyn]

The start position was loaded but all reloads had to come off barrels located about 15 feet from shooting areas.

Unless you start next to those barrels such that you can stuff mags in pouches right away, that's just lame stage design IMO. :p

[GJM]

Unless you start next to those barrels such that you can stuff mags in pouches right away, that's just lame stage design IMO. :p

That was prohibited. All reload magazines had to go from barrel to the gun, and were not allowed to be placed in your mag pouches. I am still giving thatnstage designer crap.

[olstyn]

That was prohibited. All reload magazines had to go from barrel to the gun, and were not allowed to be placed in your mag pouches.

As in it was spelled out that way in the written stage brief? Ugh, that's terrible. I suppose picking up an extra mag, keeping it in your weak hand, and shooting strong hand only (or Harries with the extra mag in place of the flashlight) until you need to make a reload was also specifically forbidden?

[GJM]

As in it was spelled out that way in the written stage brief? Ugh, that's terrible. I suppose picking up an extra mag, keeping it in your weak hand, and shooting strong hand only (or Harries with the extra mag in place of the flashlight) until you need to make a reload was also specifically forbidden?

He said you could carry an extra mag in your mouth, which I told him was a really bad idea.

SHOT pistol match with Grauffel, Nils and more — many shot two days, so you can see the effect of minor/major and different division equipment on placement.

https://practiscore.com/results/new/73895

[Bart Carter]

I pulled a Max L in that match and ran past an array. Lost a quick 20 points. Lesson learned, if you change part of your plan, rethink the rest of your plan. :mad:

I usually shoot pistol and PCC in any given match. If I shoot limited with eye correction I am about the same level as CO. But when I shoot PCC, I average over 20 percentage points better. I am so much better with PCC, no contest.

But I am no where near a GM.

[GJM]

Today, I shot a steel match (not official Steel Challenge) with PCC and CO. I shot about as well with each. My total time for the match with the PCC was 45.41 and with CO was 65.78 seconds, meaning I shot 69 percent of my PCC score with CO. I spend 99 percent of my practice time with CO, and generally only shoot PCC at steel matches.

[GJM]

A PCC guy set up a stage at our local USPSA match today, that included:

At 35 yards, two steel and three paper at 35 yards, with two of the paper targets stacked making a partial with no delineation between the two paper targets.

Identical array on the other side of the bay at 35 yards.

Two spinners at 15 yards with a 30 second penalty for failing to spin each, later reduced to three procedurals each for failing to spin, since they couldn’t figure out how to do penalty seconds on the pad.

I spun both and made basically all A hits on the 35 yard targets, although at a lot slower pace than the PCC shooters, but it was a bloodbath for most of the pistol shooters, especially the less skilled ones. This kind of stuff is driving a big wedge between PCC and the rest of the pistol divisions.

[Clusterfrack]

This is why I’m ambivalent about PCC in USPSA. Either the stages aren’t a marksmanship challenge for a carbine, or the stages are designed for PCC, and create butthurt for a lot of shooters.

[GJM]

One more thing. On the stage I referenced above, I was second in our squad, and needed to fire 82 rounds. It was 40 rounds before the spinners.

[taadski]

Sounds like the same BS the limited and open guys at your clubs were/are doing to the low cap divisions. How do you like it? :P

Regardless, doesn't sound like they're legal USPSA stages anyway.

[LOKNLOD]

One more thing. On the stage I referenced above, I was second in our squad, and needed to fire 82 rounds. It was 40 rounds before the spinners.

One stage with 82 rounds?!?

[GJM]

Sounds like the same BS the limited and open guys at your clubs were/are doing to the low cap divisions. How do you like it? :P

Regardless, doesn't sound like they're legal USPSA stages anyway.

I can’t remember the last time we had a revolver or Production shooter, and since there is at most one single stack guy, he loves it since he always gets the “win.” :D

As I have learned, spinners are apparently not legal even at a level one match, unless two spinners cancel each other out like a double negative, and make it OK. I was going to spin those spinners on principle, even if I had to go to the truck and get more ammo. As it turned out, I was second in our squad on that stage, and I could care less what they design as it effects me, because I like hard technical shooting. However it was a major negative for a number of our pistol shooters, many who have limited time and budget for shooting, and in my opinion, a selfish, low class move by the stage designer.


One stage with 82 rounds?!?

Obviously I just need to practice more, as most of the PCC guys were able to do the stage with their 57+1 capacity.

[LOKNLOD]

I can’t remember the last time we had a revolver or Production shooter, and since there is at most one single stack guy, he loves it since he always gets the “win.” :D



Obviously I just need to practice more, as most of the PCC guys were able to do the stage with their 57+1 capacity.

I’m picturing the single stack guys at our matches pooling mags and pulling them around in one of the gear wagons to make it through that stage.

[GJM]

I’m picturing the single stack guys at our matches pooling mags and pulling them around in one of the gear wagons to make it through that stage.

We had a single stack guy that ran dry as he spun the last spinner — think he had eight spare mags.

[taadski]

As I have learned, spinners are apparently not legal even at a level one match, unless two spinners cancel each other out like a double negative, and make it OK. I was going to spin those spinners on principle, even if I had to go to the truck and get more ammo. As it turned out, I was second in our squad on that stage, and I could care less what they design as it effects me, because I like hard technical shooting. However it was a major negative for a number of our pistol shooters, many who have limited time and budget for shooting, and in my opinion, a selfish, low class move by the stage designer.



We play by the actual rules round these parts. Legal props, max round counts, etc. Level I match or not. It seems silly to alienate the low capacity divisions, especially when they represent a great majority of new shooters. In the same way that you find the PCC biased stages unsavory for many of the shooters in your club. The parallels seem kinda obvious.

[GJM]

We play by the actual rules round these parts. Legal props, max round counts, etc. Level I match or not. It seems silly to alienate the low capacity divisions, especially when they represent a great majority of new shooters. In the same way that you find the PCC biased stages unsavory for many of the shooters in your club. The parallels seem kinda obvious.

I am not following your point, perhaps you can elaborate.

[JodyH]

There's always been the "problem" of the stage/match designer catering the stage/match to his particular forte whether that's precision, speed, athleticism, high capacity whatever.
It's up to the Match Director to put them in check.

[taadski]

I am not following your point, perhaps you can elaborate.

Sorry for the drive by post. I was working and got tied up.

I was responding to this mostly:


However it was a major negative for a number of our pistol shooters, many who have limited time and budget for shooting, and in my opinion, a selfish, low class move by the stage designer.


My point was that if you’re averse to the PCC biased stages your match director put together, you might also have a bit of empathy for the folks shooting the low capacity divisions at your high cap biased local matches. That’s all.

[Lomshek]

My point was that if you’re averse to the PCC biased stages your match director put together, you might also have a bit of empathy for the folks shooting the low capacity divisions at your high cap biased local matches. That’s all.


None of that is an issue if the rules are followed. Yeah that's not as exciting as a stage that requires cooling your gun in water before re-holstering but if a match director wants to put on sanctioned matches they should follow the rules.

I wonder what the single stack and production guys thought when they see a stage that (literally) has them doing tac reloads to conserve ammo?

It's one thing if you come to an outlaw match knowing there are going to be wonky stages. Sucks to go to a USPSA match that isn't a USPSA match.

[Kirk]

One stage with 82 rounds?!?

JFC, that is wild! I realize it was 40 before the spinners, but I'd guess most of the lo-cap guys were not too happy about that stage.

[Clusterfrack]

JFC, that is wild! I realize it was 40 before the spinners, but I'd guess most of the lo-cap guys were not too happy about that stage.

That was a bad stage, and IMO not appropriate for USPSA. A good stage should be challenging for the top shooters, but should not cause a D class shooter to run dry or zero the stage. More rounds does not equal better, regardless of division.

[Bart Carter]

A PCC guy set up a stage at our local USPSA match today...

This is just stupid. I shoot PCC and I would have complained.

Option would have been for the longer distances to be for PCC only. After all, they are only competing against other PCC shooters, right? :p