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halodog
03-12-2012, 08:58 AM
In an article titled "Intensive Handgun Skills: Speed Shooting Practice Drills" that was published in the Feb/March issue of US Concealed Carry Magazine, the author Duane Thomas states "my own testing years ago convinced me there is very, very little difference, either in technique or time, between doing a concealed or unconcealed draw". Duane's comment doesn't match my experience. Getting a handgun on target accurately and rapidly from a holstered/concealed position is not an easy thing to do and in my opinion demands regular practice. To the citizen who carrys discretely, the ability to draw and get on target accurately and rapidly could be the difference between a positive or negative outcome to a violent encounter.
I'd sure like to hear what others think about Duane's comment. (The article does contain some excellent drills.)

Packy
03-12-2012, 09:20 AM
Dont be a cowboy and engage in a draw..
if you will draw, be aware how fast/slow you are to hit your target.

Duane's slowest draw is my fastest.. so i will not draw my pistol on him... :)

bdcheung
03-12-2012, 09:21 AM
Agree 100%. There are big differences between drawing concealed and open.

To mention a few:

Holster choice. When I do open carry, it's in an active-retention holster (Safariland 6378) which not only puts the gun in a different position, but requires a different set of motions to draw. I also practice with my concealed carry holsters, of which I use a few: AIWB, OWB (Raven Phantom), and IWB (Crossbreed SuperTuck). Each of these puts the gun in a different spot.
Clearing of concealment garment. Again, depending on your holster choice, you're doing a number of different things.

JConn
03-12-2012, 09:34 AM
There is a big difference if you want to get max speed. If you want to be proficient with both, practice both.

halodog
03-12-2012, 09:50 AM
The purpose of my posting the question wasn't to "draw down on Duane". It's my understanding that he's a Master class IDPA shooter. I would just like to hear other's thoughts on his comment.

Chuck Haggard
03-12-2012, 10:06 AM
I am noticeably faster from my duty rig, a Safariland ALS 6365 style, than I am from concealment. I also have to practice my concealed draw more or I risk not getting the Hackathorn rip up high enough and I botch the draw.

JHC
03-12-2012, 10:19 AM
I generally agree with Thomas on this. Based on a bazillion draws across decades from open and concealed carry - from OWB, IWB and AIWB the difference is not what I consider big if within reasonable holster and garment parameters.

Over the past 18 months I've seen this clearly on the timer and targets using the FAST as test.

With either an open jacket for hip carry or a closed front garment with AIWB I've observed up to .5 second penalty combined for draw and reload from open vs concealed. (my standard frame of reference is under 6 seconds; clean or no more than one miss; over that something got seriously fubar'd in that run). The handful of FAST I've done clean just under 5 sec were all from open.

A closed front garment with hip carry is more noticeably challenging in my experience although I don't have a time number in mind I could swag.

Now in really cold weather I've run this test (FAST) from the hip with an open coat AND a fleece drawing from the hip and that double layer did impact speed a lot. No fun at all. AIWB does not suffer as badly here as there aren't really two layers to overcome.

Some garments are real problems however. A very light weight material of an open garment will give me problems drawing from the hip; being difficult to clear fully when swept back. In my experience many buttoned front shirts are harder clear for the reload than a T shirt or polo etc although not equally poor for just the draw.

My net net conclusion is that AIWB is more forgiving of garment than IWB - for the draw specifically.

And it all demands a lot of practice to perform at a high level.

jetfire
03-12-2012, 11:57 AM
Appendix carry is about as fast as drawing from an unconcealed open top holster for your first shot, because the gun is just right freakin there. However, for most shooters that carry strong side, there is a difference. The thing is that for you to understand the variance, you have to do a lot of draws over a long period of time and collect a lot of data.

For example, in a given practice session where I'm working on my draw for IDPA, I have been able to hit 1.2 second draws from concealment, which if that was my only data point could lead me to believe that it's just as fast as drawing from non-concealed. The thing that's more important to look at is the average draw to a successful hit at a given distance. You also have to keep the target consistent, because it's easier to get a fast first hit on a USPSA target than an IDPA target, etc.

If you're going to carry concealed, practice from a concealed holster whenever possible. Your draw will be different than if you're using a an open-top Production style rig.

JHC
03-12-2012, 12:16 PM
Appendix carry is about as fast as drawing from an unconcealed open top holster for your first shot, because the gun is just right freakin there. However, for most shooters that carry strong side, there is a difference. The thing is that for you to understand the variance, you have to do a lot of draws over a long period of time and collect a lot of data.

For example, in a given practice session where I'm working on my draw for IDPA, I have been able to hit 1.2 second draws from concealment, which if that was my only data point could lead me to believe that it's just as fast as drawing from non-concealed. The thing that's more important to look at is the average draw to a successful hit at a given distance. You also have to keep the target consistent, because it's easier to get a fast first hit on a USPSA target than an IDPA target, etc.

If you're going to carry concealed, practice from a concealed holster whenever possible. Your draw will be different than if you're using a an open-top Production style rig.

Once the pistol has been drawn and press out/punch out is underway . . . I'm not tracking with how the details of the draw are now impacting the first hit on target?

jetfire
03-12-2012, 12:51 PM
I can do a sloppy draw to a c-hit a lot faster than I can do a draw to a guaranteed a-zone. When I'm doing something where I'm seriously tracking my first shot draw times, I need to eliminate as many variables as possible. So by saying "only draws that result in good hits count" I'm helping to manage the variable of pushing my speed so fast that I miss.

Byron
03-12-2012, 01:17 PM
Once the pistol has been drawn and press out/punch out is underway . . . I'm not tracking with how the details of the draw are now impacting the first hit on target?
Acquiring initial grip on the pistol is usually more complicated when done from concealment, rather than from an open carry holster. A poor initial grip could result in less accurate hits, even if they are delivered with the same speed.

If I'm not mistaken, this is why the FAST drill requires the first shot from the holster to be on the index card: to penalize shooters who just make a sloppy grab for the pistol on a quickdraw.

I think Caleb's point is very well made: are people just comparing their best draw speed from open vs concealed? Is first-hit accuracy being compared? Are the number of fumbled draws being compared?

JHC
03-12-2012, 01:20 PM
I can do a sloppy draw to a c-hit a lot faster than I can do a draw to a guaranteed a-zone. When I'm doing something where I'm seriously tracking my first shot draw times, I need to eliminate as many variables as possible. So by saying "only draws that result in good hits count" I'm helping to manage the variable of pushing my speed so fast that I miss.

Got it. Thanks

JHC
03-12-2012, 01:39 PM
Acquiring initial grip on the pistol is usually more complicated when done from concealment, rather than from an open carry holster. A poor initial grip could result in less accurate hits, even if they are delivered with the same speed.

If I'm not mistaken, this is why the FAST drill requires the first shot from the holster to be on the index card: to penalize shooters who just make a sloppy grab for the pistol on a quickdraw.

I think Caleb's point is very well made: are people just comparing their best draw speed from open vs concealed? Is first-hit accuracy being compared? Are the number of fumbled draws being compared?

My conclusions are based on experience long predating the FAST but your point about first hit is well made. First hit is definitely being compared by me anyway. And Duane Thomas I suspect. I don't count a fumbled draw as any draw at all. My observations using the FAST over the past year and a half match earlier conclusions. One of many reasons the FAST is just an efficient tool.

LSP972
03-13-2012, 07:46 AM
Getting a handgun on target accurately and rapidly from a holstered/concealed position is not an easy thing to do and in my opinion demands regular practice. To the citizen who carrys discretely, the ability to draw and get on target accurately and rapidly could be the difference between a positive or negative outcome to a violent encounter.


Exactly.

I have no clue who Duane Thomas is, but he sounds to me like someone who hasn't studied the matter thoroughly; or else he does his "testing" in clothes/gear that is not very discrete.

I'll agree that if one is wearing a good OWB holster under a "shoot me first" vest, or other open-front cover garment, then perhaps there is very little disparity in draw times. Ditto for AIWB.

But for those of us who cannot utilize AIWB because of physical limitations (how's THAT for a euphemism for being fat???:D ), and/or hide our iron under a closed-front cover garment...

Speed draw and fire techniques were a large part of our curriculum, and I worked with hundreds of cops, of varying experience/skill levels, in an attempt to give them a chance to survive a reactive encounter. Our program has produced several gunfight winners, so I am more than passingly familiar with the concepts involved.

Once I left the FTU Supervisor position and went into plain clothes, I did a lot of study and work on concealed carry, for my personal edification. I'm now retired, but I still carry a serious pistol every day, because the crime rate here has skyrocketed since Katrina. There are many ways to skin that cat... but if your handgun is TRULY concealed, IMO there is NO WAY you can be as fast "on the draw" from that concealment as you can from open carry; unless, of course, you're pocket carrying and start with your hand in your pocket. I assume we're speaking of a serious pistol carried in a belt holster here.

Anyway... that's my 0.02.

.

JHC
03-13-2012, 08:06 AM
I think Duane Thomas is very credible (and has been since the '90's) and an accomplished shooter. He's a member at Brian Enos' forum and his contributions there are impressive IMO in that he knows what he knows but makes no pretenses to speak outside his own (albeit considerable) experience.

JeffJ
03-13-2012, 08:32 AM
Concealed needs to be better defined. "IDPA concealed" vs. tuckable AIWB (what I'm wearing right now) with a tucked in shirt are two totally different things. Same thing with a deep concealed behind the hip holster under a closed front shirt.

Depending on how the pistol is concealed the difference might be negligible or significant

ToddG
03-13-2012, 12:41 PM
I'm confused as to how anyone could think a concealed draw is no different than an open draw. Do 100 of each to a moderate target -- say a 5" circle at 7yd -- recording time and percentage of first hits. I'd be amazed if anyone does as well concealed, even compared to a fast concealment setup like aiwb.

Now do 25 4-shot draws to the same target from open and 25 from concealed. Record times and hits. I'm betting that most people find they're more consistent at getting a good grip from open, and/or they're slowing down in concealment to get a good grip.

Also, do not throw out fumbled draws or other mistakes. You're basically skewing data. If you fumble 1% of your open draws and 5% of your concealment draws, isn't that worth knowing?

voodoo_man
03-13-2012, 01:23 PM
I had a hard time getting my draw to be as much like an open draw (from a duty holster like a safariland) from most concealed IWB holster until I got this holster.

http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j341/shevon_vspec/2011/122411-kydex/kydex_13.jpg

I am not advertising or anything of that sort, just saying that I watched my times come closer together once I switched to this holster and compared the times to an open draw from retention running the same type of drills.

(its a Sayoc holster)

JHC
03-13-2012, 02:00 PM
I'm confused as to how anyone could think a concealed draw is no different than an open draw. Do 100 of each to a moderate target -- say a 5" circle at 7yd -- recording time and percentage of first hits. I'd be amazed if anyone does as well concealed, even compared to a fast concealment setup like aiwb.

Now do 25 4-shot draws to the same target from open and 25 from concealed. Record times and hits. I'm betting that most people find they're more consistent at getting a good grip from open, and/or they're slowing down in concealment to get a good grip.

Also, do not throw out fumbled draws or other mistakes. You're basically skewing data. If you fumble 1% of your open draws and 5% of your concealment draws, isn't that worth knowing?

Speaking for myself I quantified a difference and qualified that I didn't judge it to be a large difference in my frame of reference which I also specified.

Good point about skewing data re the fumbled draws.

Johnkard
03-13-2012, 02:24 PM
For me It is not comparable. My concealed holster is a Galco leather one that I wear just behind my right hip under and un-tucked shirt or covered by a jacket. I can draw and put a round in the A zone in under 2 seconds, but I am NOT consistent at this. If my jacket gets caught, or my shirt catches an edge...To be consistent I need to add at least one extra action into my draw (to get my clothing out of the way properly) and that inevitably adds time. A long term average would probably aggregate to around 3 seconds.

With an open holster, there is no extra movement at all. One stroke in just over a second, from kydex to cardboard. EVERY SINGLE TIME. In terms of a firefight or a competition it is a completely different order of magnitude.

JodyH
03-13-2012, 02:28 PM
I'm within .25 second from an OWB and my AIWB when everything goes right.
The difference is in how many times things don't go right and that is where OWB has a significant advantage.
Concealed adds additional fumble opportunities which I take advantage of on occasion.

LSP972
03-14-2012, 07:42 AM
Concealed needs to be better defined. "IDPA concealed" vs. tuckable AIWB (what I'm wearing right now) with a tucked in shirt are two totally different things. Same thing with a deep concealed behind the hip holster under a closed front shirt.

Precisely. _I_ don't understand how anyone can think the two situations are NOT different.

.

David Armstrong
03-14-2012, 01:47 PM
Concealed needs to be better defined. "IDPA concealed" vs. tuckable AIWB (what I'm wearing right now) with a tucked in shirt are two totally different things. Same thing with a deep concealed behind the hip holster under a closed front shirt.

Depending on how the pistol is concealed the difference might be negligible or significant
Exactly. There are so many variables in this issue that it is very easy to be talking about very different things. What is considered "concealed", what type of holster(s) are we talking about, how to define a "significant difference" and so on. Depending on what holster I happen to pick that can make my concealed draw slower or faster than my open carry draw, as just one example.

bcauz3y
03-16-2012, 01:24 PM
There is a big difference if you want to get max speed. If you want to be proficient with both, practice both.

IMO, slow and smooth are better than fast.

I also do not agree with the article referenced in the OP that drawing from concealed vs. drawing from a duty holster or open carry is the same thing.

They are entirely different animals, which require drastically different methods of access and thought.

Once you've cleared leather, the rest of the game remains the same, though.

JHC
03-16-2012, 01:47 PM
Did the Duane Thomas article or any post on the thread say the two were the same or that there is zero difference? I hadn't thought so.

David Armstrong
03-16-2012, 06:31 PM
Did the Duane Thomas article or any post on the thread say the two were the same or that there is zero difference? I hadn't thought so.
You're right.
'Duane Thomas states "my own testing years ago convinced me there is very, very little difference, either in technique or time, between doing a concealed or unconcealed draw". ' Little difference in technique or time. Sometimes we lose sight of what was actually said.

HeadHunter
03-16-2012, 08:45 PM
In case anyone wants to read the article.
The Intensive Handgun Skills: Speed Shooting Practice Drills (https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/ccm-columns/features/the-intensive-handgun-skills-speed-shooting-practice-drills/)

gringop
03-16-2012, 11:24 PM
Does Duane Thomas regularly shoot USPSA production concealed while others shoot unconcealed?
When he does this, bet's money on it and wins, I'll believe his statement.

Here is his complete statement.

"You may or may not choose to do these drills from concealment. I don’t, since my own testing years ago convinced me there is very, very little difference, either in technique or time, between doing a concealed or unconcealed draw. Some might argue with me on that, but I have gone literally years without practicing a concealed draw and then had absolutely no problem doing one when required, so I’ll stand by that statement."

I'm not sure how not practicing one for years, then successfully completing one, translates to very little difference in technique or time.

Duane's been writing about shooting for many years. He is more of an expert on that than I am. But when he devotes 116 words to how it's just as fast to start a ready position drill with the gun on safe as with it off safe, then starts with his finger on the trigger, I kinda tune him out.

YMMV,
Gringop

JConn
03-16-2012, 11:42 PM
IMO, slow and smooth are better than fast.

I also do not agree with the article referenced in the OP that drawing from concealed vs. drawing from a duty holster or open carry is the same thing.

They are entirely different animals, which require drastically different methods of access and thought.

Once you've cleared leather, the rest of the game remains the same, though.

Ok... You're saying slow and smooth because thinking that allows you to slow down to a point where the fundamentals are executed properly. When you execute those fundamentals properly you are achieving maximum speed for that draw. However, if we are competing and you go slow and I go fast and we both get our hits, I win, game over. All I'm saying is I'll take fast any day. Either way we are both aiming for the same end goal, bullets on target as FAST as possible. Unless I'm missing something. You can't say you don't want speed, you just want those things that allow you to achieve maximum speed. It makes no sense.

Sorry, I'm tired and bored. Going to sleep now.

JeffJ
03-17-2012, 07:19 AM
I try for fast and smooth

JHC
03-17-2012, 08:54 AM
In case anyone wants to read the article.
The Intensive Handgun Skills: Speed Shooting Practice Drills (https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/ccm-columns/features/the-intensive-handgun-skills-speed-shooting-practice-drills/)

It was ok. Very much oriented to speed to a high prob target.

No where near as useful as this link: http://pistol-training.com/drills

CCT125US
03-17-2012, 09:57 AM
Most shooters have heard the phrase "slow is smooth and smooth is fast". That sounds good and is real cute.... but sometimes slow is just slow... If that is your speed then great, but faster hits beat slow and smooth hits every time.

David Armstrong
03-17-2012, 12:15 PM
Does Duane Thomas regularly shoot USPSA production concealed while others shoot unconcealed?
When he does this, bet's money on it and wins, I'll believe his statement.

Here is his complete statement.

"You may or may not choose to do these drills from concealment. I don’t, since my own testing years ago convinced me there is very, very little difference, either in technique or time, between doing a concealed or unconcealed draw. Some might argue with me on that, but I have gone literally years without practicing a concealed draw and then had absolutely no problem doing one when required, so I’ll stand by that statement."

I'm not sure how not practicing one for years, then successfully completing one, translates to very little difference in technique or time.

Duane's been writing about shooting for many years. He is more of an expert on that than I am. But when he devotes 116 words to how it's just as fast to start a ready position drill with the gun on safe as with it off safe, then starts with his finger on the trigger, I kinda tune him out.

YMMV,
Gringop
I'm not Duane, I won't speak for him, I won't claim to be able to read his mind, but for me the simple act of concealing my holster doesn't seem to change much in the way of technique of draw or time of presentation as opposed to not concealing it. If we are changing gear entirely then yes, maybe there is something there. But if it is the same IWB holster and the difference is my shirt is inside instead of hanging outside I just don't see much difference. YMMV.

HeadHunter
03-17-2012, 10:26 PM
I was unable to confirm his hypothesis today. My open draws were consistently faster than my concealed draws over 6 runs with a J frame. The mean difference was .34 and the median was .37.

ToddG
03-19-2012, 09:59 AM
but faster hits beat slow and smooth hits every time.

This. How does anyone even argue to the contrary?

mnealtx
03-20-2012, 12:10 AM
This. How does anyone even argue to the contrary?

Nobody is going to argue against the snippet - however, the entirety of his post completely disregards the *spirit* of the 'slow, smooth' quote and assumes that the 'slow, smooth' movement will *always* be slow. Did you not say that you *practice* press-outs at half speed? (at least, I *think* I recall that being mentioned)

To me, it seems that slow, smooth practice while you're learning the movement lets you ingrain the most *efficient* movement pattern, which then translates to *increased* speed once you turn up the wick.

Long tom coffin
03-20-2012, 12:30 AM
I'm not Duane, I won't speak for him, I won't claim to be able to read his mind, but for me the simple act of concealing my holster doesn't seem to change much in the way of technique of draw or time of presentation as opposed to not concealing it. If we are changing gear entirely then yes, maybe there is something there. But if it is the same IWB holster and the difference is my shirt is inside instead of hanging outside I just don't see much difference. YMMV.



Exactly how much does switching gear make a difference though? And to what extreme of switching are we talking about? It's something that's been on my mind recently as I've been looking at all the gear I use on a regular basis. While I always carry strong side, sometimes I switch from IWB to OWB depending on my environment, clothing choice, and the weather. My IWB get up is a VTAC cobra belt or standard Beltman with a Ritchie Hideaway, while my OWB set up is the VTAC with a Praetor Defense holster. Absorbing info from this site has long since convinced me of the benefits of simplicity and standardization, so I'm really the debating the necessity of switching back and forth between gear for carry, primarily because my drawstroke is different between the two. When IWB, it's the hack rip, but when OWB, I am usually wearing an open button down over a tshirt, so I'm moving my outer garment with my strong hand.

Draw times are not something I've measured yet, but it's something I hope to accomplish next time at the range. I suppose at that point I'll determine if standardization on a single holster set is something I'll further pursue, or if I'm just over analyzing and making a mountain out of a molehill.

JHC
03-20-2012, 08:03 AM
I think when you measure them, you'll probably see a speed advantage to open front garment and OWB but how big a difference will depend on the garment over the IWB and the repetitions you have with each. But I think you should stick with both and train both. $0.02.

bcauz3y
03-20-2012, 08:29 AM
Ok... You're saying slow and smooth because thinking that allows you to slow down to a point where the fundamentals are executed properly. When you execute those fundamentals properly you are achieving maximum speed for that draw. However, if we are competing and you go slow and I go fast and we both get our hits, I win, game over. All I'm saying is I'll take fast any day. Either way we are both aiming for the same end goal, bullets on target as FAST as possible. Unless I'm missing something. You can't say you don't want speed, you just want those things that allow you to achieve maximum speed. It makes no sense.

Sorry, I'm tired and bored. Going to sleep now.

Speed is fine, accuracy is final.

I'm simply saying that you should go as fast as you can, while maintaining smooth, accurate, safe handling of the weapon.

Being super fast doesn't get you anywhere if you can't put rounds on target.

Watch a few gang shoot outs to get what I mean. Those guys get their guns in the game fast, with a poor grip, and zero aiming. If just one of them would slow down, get a handle on that .38 and aim for a half second, he'd win every time.

I hope that helps clarify.


ETA: looking back at my post, I worded what I was trying to say in a very poor manner.

My fault.

ToddG
03-20-2012, 08:57 AM
Nobody is going to argue against the snippet - however, the entirety of his post completely disregards the *spirit* of the 'slow, smooth' quote and assumes that the 'slow, smooth' movement will *always* be slow. Did you not say that you *practice* press-outs at half speed? (at least, I *think* I recall that being mentioned)

I practice press-outs at all sorts of different speeds depending on what I'm trying to accomplish. But when I'm trying to get faster at something, I either need to:


correct mistakes in technique, which is best done at less than full speed
push through a plateau in my comfort zone, which is best done at full speed


Both sever a purpose and it's a mistake to assume that one is better than the other or will always necessarily deliver the best results.


Being super fast doesn't get you anywhere if you can't put rounds on target.

If someone said "Joe is a really fast NASCAR driver, he just never makes it around Turn 1 without crashing" would you really say Joe is fast? No. If you cannot accomplish the goal, then the speed at which you fail seems meaningless. I don't think you'll find anyone here who advocates pulling the trigger as fast as possible with no accountability for where the bullets land.

But what a lot of the "smooth is fast" and "accuracy is final" people seem to forget is that you won't get to pick your pace. I see people all the time who can hit a 3x5 at 7yd... given ten seconds to aim, breathe, squeeze, relax, aim again, settle, press. Is that one step on the path? Sure. But far too many people just stop at that point and measure their success based off of nothing but where the bullet eventually landed on the paper. You shot a one hole group at 7yd? Hooray. How many times would I have shot you in the chest while you were aiming that first shot?

Is a miss bad? Absolutely.
But so is being too slow to get off a shot before you're dead.

peterb
03-20-2012, 09:22 AM
I practice press-outs at all sorts of different speeds depending on what I'm trying to accomplish. But when I'm trying to get faster at something, I either need to:


correct mistakes in technique, which is best done at less than full speed
push through a plateau in my comfort zone, which is best done at full speed


Both sever a purpose and it's a mistake to assume that one is better than the other or will always necessarily deliver the best results.

Right. As mentioned before, it's a lot like learning to play a fast piece on a musical instrument. You work out the fingering at reduced speed to figure out what's smooth and efficient. But at some point you crank up the metronome or backing track to a speed a bit faster than you can play cleanly, and do your best to keep up. Alternating between the two will eventually get you playing faster with fewer mistakes.

bcauz3y
03-21-2012, 01:51 PM
But what a lot of the "smooth is fast" and "accuracy is final" people seem to forget is that you won't get to pick your pace. I see people all the time who can hit a 3x5 at 7yd... given ten seconds to aim, breathe, squeeze, relax, aim again, settle, press. Is that one step on the path? Sure. But far too many people just stop at that point and measure their success based off of nothing but where the bullet eventually landed on the paper. You shot a one hole group at 7yd? Hooray. How many times would I have shot you in the chest while you were aiming that first shot?

Is a miss bad? Absolutely.
But so is being too slow to get off a shot before you're dead.

I agree completely Todd.

I suppose the entire point of my point of my post could be summarized best with:

"Go as fast as you can while making hits"

:o

SamuelBLong
03-23-2012, 01:30 AM
I was unable to confirm his hypothesis today. My open draws were consistently faster than my concealed draws over 6 runs with a J frame. The mean difference was .34 and the median was .37.


I'm finding a similar difference in my testing. For me, no concealment, on average, is approximately 0.38 sec faster than my concealed draw to first shot. I should also note that i've only looked at drawing to low probability targets. I need to go back and look at the difference in drawing to some bigger targets / multiple shots w/ hit percentages.

I like this data tracking thing. I'm really able to point out specific areas that I need to work on and areas where I can improve.

JRas
03-23-2012, 10:36 PM
concealed is slower from what I've seen

I normally wear a regular t-shirt though. I pull my shirt up to my arm pit on draw

I know some people wear those vests or a jackets that they swing out of the way, not a fan