"Knives don't work well and you will go to prison no matter what!"

[Warped Mindless]

I've always carried a fixed blade knife in appendix carry opposite my gun for obvious reasons. I know many others here, as well a many credible dudes outside the forum, carries a small fixed blade as well.

Lately, however, I have seen a few "experts" (Varg Freeborn most recently) decry the use of any knife for defensive encounters. Their reasons almost always boil down to two things:

1) Knives don't work as well as most think and it will take over 20 - 30 stabs for them to be effective and it will take to long for this to happen.

2) If you use a knife you will go to prison no matter what because people (the cops and jury especially) are conditioned to believe that knives are a tool of thugs and other evil men only.

Opinions?

Personally I mostly disagree with #1 but somewhat agree with #2. That said, if I deploy my knife its because I can't or won't use my gun due to various reasons. If you have training you likely understand why. If I have my knife ifts because im fighting for my life and I don't feel I have other options but to use my blade to create space. I feel that if the knife user knows what he is doing, this is very possible which is why I disagree with point one.

As for the second point, better alive in prison than dead in the ground.

Discuss.

[JohnO]

I took a weapon retention & disarming class from Michael de Bethencourt years ago where he recommended a pink Spyderco Delica because it would not look too aggressive or tactical if used. I never bothered getting a pink knife.

https://images.knifecenter.com/thumb/1500x1500/knifecenter/spyderco-knives/images/11ppn.jpg

Ultimately a knife is a tool. Use it if you need to.

[RevolverRob]

Who the fuck is Varg Freeborn?

Oh wait now I remember a discussion about him in this (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?25720-Knife-as-a-SD-weapon-aftermath) thread. From what I can tell, Freeborn's position is colored extremely by his personal experience, which seems to have been very negative and is likely a result of stupid people stupid places stupid decisions.

I'm not saying you might not face more scrutiny by a jury for using a knife, but it doesn't actually seem to bear out frequently in trials (if it goes that far). In fact, one argument in favor of contact weapon use is that said bad actor is now in your face and your opportunities to escape are limited. In other words there is less, "Shoot the gun/knife out of his hand." kind of thinking and when put in your shoes, your jury must consider, "If someone was up on me, trying to stab me, would I have done the same thing if all I had was a small utility knife?"

As far as knives not working well - yea the evidence doesn't support that claim - at all. Anecdotal evidence indicates that stabbings are considerably more lethal than handgun shootings. It may take longer for the assailant to stop than a cranial vault shot does, but stab someone 20 or 30 times? Chances of them coming out of that, alive, are low.

[Warped Mindless]

Who the fuck is Varg Freeborn?

Oh wait now I remember a discussion about him in this (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?25720-Knife-as-a-SD-weapon-aftermath) thread. From what I can tell, Freeborn's position is colored extremely by his personal experience, which seems to have been very negative and is likely a result of stupid people stupid places stupid decisions.

I'm not saying you might not face more scrutiny by a jury for using a knife, but it doesn't actually seem to bear out frequently in trials (if it goes that far). In fact, one argument in favor of contact weapon use is that said bad actor is now in your face and your opportunities to escape are limited. In other words there is less, "Shoot the gun/knife out of his hand." kind of thinking and when put in your shoes, your jury must consider, "If someone was up on me, trying to stab me, would I have done the same thing if all I had was a small utility knife?"

As far as knives not working well - yea the evidence doesn't support that claim - at all. Anecdotal evidence indicates that stabbings are considerably more lethal than handgun shootings. It may take longer for the assailant to stop than a cranial vault shot does, but stab someone 20 or 30 times? Chances of them coming out of that, alive, are low.

As to your last point: after making my post I got curious and searched for news stories where someone used a knife in self defense. Took me all of 10 minutes to find multiple stories where many people, pretty much all seemingly untrained, used a pocket knife to fight off attackers. One case a woman used a pocket knife to fend off two rapist. Just something interesting...

[TCFD273]

I've always carried a fixed blade knife in appendix carry opposite my gun for obvious reasons. I know many others here, as well a many credible dudes outside the forum, carries a small fixed blade as well.

Lately, however, I have seen a few "experts" (Varg Freeborn most recently) decry the use of any knife for defensive encounters. Their reasons almost always boil down to two things:

1) Knives don't work as well as most think and it will take over 20 - 30 stabs for them to be effective and it will take to long for this to happen.

2) If you use a knife you will go to prison no matter what because people (the cops and jury especially) are conditioned to believe that knives are a tool of thugs and other evil men only.

Opinions?

Personally I mostly disagree with #1 but somewhat agree with #2. That said, if I deploy my knife its because I can't or won't use my gun due to various reasons. If you have training you likely understand why. If I have my knife ifts because im fighting for my life and I don't feel I have other options but to use my blade to create space. I feel that if the knife user knows what he is doing, this is very possible which is why I disagree with point one.

As for the second point, better alive in prison than dead in the ground.

Discuss.

I’ve seen/treated a TON of stabbings. I once treated a guy who was stabbed 57 times. He continued to fight, and seriously injure/permanently disfigure the person with the knife. He stopped his attack once we rolled up, and died about 20min later.

My opinion, knives are good for creating space and as a last resort defensive weapon. He is correct that they do not work as well as many people think.


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[theJanitor]

I carry a very sturdy fixed blade, AIWB, because i need it for knife stuff (opening/breaking things). If I use it for defense, so be it.

[RevolverRob]

As to your last point: after making my post I got curious and searched for news stories where someone used a knife in self defense. Took me all of 10 minutes to find multiple stories where many people, pretty much all seemingly untrained, used a pocket knife to fight off attackers. One case a woman used a pocket knife to fend off two rapist. Just something interesting...

We've also discussed here and over at TPI, the potential for a different or increased psychological "stop" when using knives vs. guns. Virtually everyone knows what it feels like to get cut and how much it hurts. There seems to be less of a mental barrier for people to realize they are going to get hurt, badly, fighting someone with a knife. That's kind of nuanced, in that it could be the recognition of pain. Or it could also be the recognition that someone who is holding a knife, ready to fuck you up, has made a decision to do violence and isn't going to go down easily.

Regardless, I've seen some other anecdotal evidence of this.

One such example is in "Manchild in the Promise Land" by Claude Brown, which details his childhood in Harlem in the 1940s and '50s and discusses the startling normality of violence up to and including him being shot during a robbery gone wrong at 12 or 13 years old. And one thing that Brown talks about is how when there was a fight? Bat, board, knuckles, even guns didn't scare him, but getting stabbed did. Because people he knew, who got stabbed, often didn't come home again. He was afraid of knives and he'd find something else to do if a blade came out in a throw down. Similarly, "Fist Stick Knife Gun" by Geoffrey Canada, which is from his time in Harlem in the 1960s and '70s - demonstrates a similar psychology.

Remember, these are men who knew violence at an almost fundamental level. It was part of their everyday existence and yet a blade had a psychological effect on them that in some ways, defies logical explanation.

[RevolverRob]

I’ve seen/treated a TON of stabbings. I once treated a guy who was stabbed 57 times. He continued to fight, and seriously injure/permanently disfigure the person with the knife. He stopped his attack once we rolled up, and died about 20min later.

But the stabber lived and the stabbee did not?

ETA: I do want to add a quick distinction here.

There are two issues at hand.

1) The efficacy of a knife in dealing lethal damage.

2) The efficacy of a knife in ending a fight.

Those are separate, but correlated issues.

In the case of number 1, knives (and sharp stabbing instruments in general) are extremely effective at dealing lethal damage. So, for that matter are baseball bats, bricks, and rocks.

In the case of number 2, that's an interesting question. You might gain a slight edge in psychological stop vs. handgun, but in terms of rapidly stopping a fight or allowing you to egress from that fight? Tangling up with a knife at contact distance begins to limit your escape options and anyone who has committed to fighting someone with a knife, is committed to doing harm, period. Bear this in mind.

[Gun Mutt]

Damn my old mind...was it not here that someone like @BBI told of his talks with a serious trial attorney who told him he'd never seen a defensive knife use get spun into a prosecution? Was it a podcast? Fuck, it was great info, too.

[BillSWPA]

Re: whether knives work: there is all kinds of anecdotal evidence on both sides of this issue. However, enough people who have been there/done that use them and teach their use so that their effectiveness cannot be readily dismissed. They can be carried legally, in some form, almost anywhere in the US. I know of no other option providing the same level of easy of carry and effectiveness for places where a gun is not a legal option.

Re: the legal aftermath: as with anything else, staying out of jail means 1) act reasonably, 2) be able to explain and demonstrate why your actions were reasonable, and 3) be prepared to deal with the likely ways in which whatever happened can be spun to make you look bad. The "demonstrate" part is critical to overcome whatever preconceived notions the judge or jury may have.

If I recall correctly, a big part of his argument is the likelihood of taking a plea due to the cost of a legal defense. If you are a member of the Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network (and if you carry a gun, you should be), if your actions appear to be legal, and you were not carrying your defensive weapon illegally, they will provide a defense regardless of whether you used a gun or something else.

[Doc_Glock]

My 0.02c: Knives are good psychological stoppers and poor physiologic stoppers. In a clinch I suppose they can work to "reduce" your opponent. If you can target tendons as Janich suggests they are very effective at stopping muscle action. I don't know how practical that is in the chaos of a fight.

[TCFD273]

But the stabber lived and the stabbee did not?

ETA: I do want to add a quick distinction here.

There are two issues at hand.

1) The efficacy of a knife in dealing lethal damage.

2) The efficacy of a knife in ending a fight.

Those are separate, but correlated issues.

In the case of number 1, knives (and sharp stabbing instruments in general) are extremely effective at dealing lethal damage. So, for that matter are baseball bats, bricks, and rocks.

In the case of number 2, that's an interesting question. You might gain a slight edge in psychological stop vs. handgun, but in terms of rapidly stopping a fight or allowing you to egress from that fight? Tangling up with a knife at contact distance begins to limit your escape options and anyone who has committed to fighting someone with a knife, is committed to doing harm, period. Bear this in mind.

I have to politely disagree. Generally speaking, when guns come out, people scatter. That has not been my experience with knives.

As to my example above, had the attacker been shot multiple times...I’m of the opinion, based on my experience, it would’ve ended much sooner. Another example, an assailant on what I assumed was meth went into a somewhat busy gas station and began aimlessly attacking people. They banded together and took him down. I treated the attacker, the two people stabbed were treated and released the same day from the hospital.

I carry a fixed blade for a variety of reasons, in a defensive scenario, it’s to create space and transition to a firearm.

It seems I run into this conversation with serious knife people from time to time. Hey, you do you. All I know is what I’ve seen spending the last 15yrs working the street and part time in 2 different Level 1 Trauma centers.


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[Doc_Glock]

In the case of number 1, knives (and sharp stabbing instruments in general) are extremely effective at dealing lethal damage.

Knives can be lethal, certainly, but usually not quickly.

[RevolverRob]

My 0.02c: Knives are good psychological stoppers and poor physiologic stoppers.

With all respect, that does not appear to be the case, at all. But I think you're conflating a fight stoppage due to physiological shutdown of an attacker and physiological stoppage, period. If you stab someone 57 times and they die 20 minutes later, the knife was an effective physiological stopper in the hands of the stabber, i.e. the tool used stopped, literally, the physiological functions of the stabbee.

It's the 20 minutes between the fight starting and physiological shutdown that makes the difference to the individuals in the fight. We've seen many instances of knife and handgun usage where the fight did not end due to a physiological stop. The difference that might make the handgun more effective is distance. A handgun can be and often is employed at a greater distance that results in one or more parties to the fight fleeing rather quickly from the scene. Where as a "knife fight" is an extreme close quarters scenario that may not offer a rapid escape for either party and thus may continue for an extended period of time.

So what's the take home? If you carry a knife for defensive usage, working on your delivery, control, and escape system is really the most important part. Way too many "knife systems" focus on repeatedly stabbing and re-engaging your opponent, far fewer focus on control and escape of a clinched up scenario. The only two "knife systems" I know that actively integrate and focus on control and escapre are the Shivworks Paradigm and components of the Libre Fighting System.

[RevolverRob]

I have to politely disagree. Generally speaking, when guns come out, people scatter. That has not been my experience with knives.

As to my example above, had the attacker been shot multiple times...I’m of the opinion, based on my experience, it would’ve ended much sooner. Another example, an assailant on what I assumed was meth went into a somewhat busy gas station and began aimlessly attacking people. They banded together and took him down. I treated the attacker, the two people stabbed were treated and released the same day from the hospital.

I carry a fixed blade for a variety of reasons, in a defensive scenario, it’s to create space and transition to a firearm.

It seems I run into this conversation with serious knife people from time to time. Hey, you do you. All I know is what I’ve seen spending the last 15yrs working the street and part time in 2 different Level 1 Trauma centers.


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I'm not sure which part you disagree with?

[GuanoLoco]

I find it interesting that there plenty of commentary about the ineffectiveness of knives in rapidly stopping a fight, with the notable exception of 'making space' to get to a gun that may or may not exist.

In contrast with discussions about the importance of shot placement, there is virtually no discussion about targeting parts of the body with a knife - parts that would usefully incapacitate an attacker, or more quickly bring an end to the fight.

[blues]

I have used a knife a time or two in my life to indicate to someone with predatory intentions to go find easier prey. (Worked in each instance to deflect their interest in me as a target.)

My purpose in carrying a knife is as a cutting tool for mundane tasks.

I am far more likely to use a folding knife as a striking implement (closed) if engaged in a close quarter scrum.

Having been cut a few times requiring suturing, once in anger, it's not something I look forward to revisiting...but it's not necessarily a showstopper.

[GuanoLoco]

I have used a knife a time or two in my life to indicate to someone with predatory intentions to go find easier prey. (Worked in each instance to deflect their interest in me as a target.)

My purpose in carrying a knife is as a cutting tool for mundane tasks.

I am far more likely to use a folding knife as a striking implement (closed) if engaged in a close quarter scrum.

Having been cut a few times requiring suturing, once in anger, it's not something I look forward to revisiting...but it's not necessarily a showstopper.

Knife guys spend a lot of time working on cutting their opponents in places that matter, and, given that getting cut in return is an inevitability, trying to only take cuts in areas that are less critical to sustaining life and staying in the fight.

[TCFD273]

I'm not sure which part you disagree with?

That knives are extremely effective at delivering lethal force.

That knives are more effective than handguns at psychological stops.


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[RevolverRob]

I find it interesting that there plenty of commentary about the ineffectiveness of knives in rapidly stopping a fight, with the notable exception of 'making space' to get to a gun that may or may not exist.

In contrast with discussions about the importance of shot placement, there is virtually no discussion about targeting parts of the body with a knife - parts that would usefully incapacitate an attacker, or more quickly bring an end to the fight.

Depends on who the discussion is with. ;)

Libre definitely teaches vital targeting areas. Shivworks teaches tie ups and controls, that while not necessarily specifically constructed to aid in targeting vital areas, definitely allow those areas to be more reliably targeted.

If we want to talk about stopping a fight with a knife quickly there are two shots you want to take - a good braced stab to the heart, or a clinched stab that drives the blade between cervical 2 and 3 in the neck. Both of those are more or less instantaneous fight stoppers. Long skinny blades driven through the external accoustic meatus (ear hole) into the skull can be effective, as can long skinny blades driven through the nostril or eye socket. But hitting any of those areas is quite difficult.

Otherwise, solid general targets are the neck, the inner/upper thigh, the genitals, the lower torso, and the kidneys. Places to "avoid" in a clinched scenario (particularly with a small <5" bladed knife) is the chest cavity where the ribs are, the arms, the lower extremities, and the face/skull. All of those are because of hard bones that can trap the knife and/or are difficult to penetrate.

[blues]

Knife guys spend a lot of time working on cutting their opponents in places that matter, and, given that getting cut in return is an inevitability, trying to only take cuts in areas that are less critical to sustaining life and staying in the fight.

I don't think there was any contradiction presented in my original post. I am speaking of my experience, and my usage.

That said, I'm pretty familiar with anatomy and the targets of opportunity / vulnerability.

[RevolverRob]

That knives are extremely effective at delivering lethal force.

That knives are more effective than handguns at psychological stops.


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I'm not sure we disagree, actually. I think we're simply talking past each other.

Psychological stops are going to vary, period. I want to be clear, I'm merely pointing out that there seems like there might be an increased psychological stoppage factor with a knife. That's a lot of qualifiers on purpose. Not that there actually is and I wouldn't want to count on it, period.

As for lethal force, knives are as effective as anything else, when targeted properly. More importantly, by their nature of being contact weapons, they are typically used to deliver more hitsonto an opponent quickly, than handguns are. We could debate efficacy back and forth for quite a while, I'm sure. But at the end of the day usage of any weapon to deliver lethal force is a matter of targeting and force application. I argue knives are extremely effective, because they allow for rapid application of lethal damage with high degrees of accuracy when used inside of their area of effect. Knives are like anything else, tools which have a specific set of applications they excel at and ones which they aren't so good at. Delivering lethal force from 5 yards away with a knife is a whole lot harder than doing so with a handgun or long arm.

[Cecil Burch]

. Shivworks teaches tie ups and controls, that while not necessarily specifically constructed to aid in targeting vital areas, definitely allow those areas to be more reliably targeted.





All of us in SW group teach specific targeting to gain the most effective outcome.

The idea that "using a knife is a definite jail sentence" has not been backed up with a single shred of documented evidence. As a matter of fact, the opposite has been proven to be true. There is not one single instance that anyone has been able to show where an otherwise justifiable self-defense situation has become a criminal matter solely due to the defendant using a knife. Not a single one. Ever, in the US in the modern era. Actually, what we have found is a metric ton of folks using a knife, even in less than friendly to self-defense areas (like Seattle), never had any legal consequences at all.

And the concept that using a knife even leads to the person plea bargaining because the prosecutor wants to go to trial solely due to a knife being used? Again, nothing more than "he said, she said".

With the information age, one would hope that we have moved past essentially old wives tales being taken as gospel. It is not hard to prove or disprove shit like this. Unless you maybe have an agenda that is.

[Warped Mindless]

Regarding the lethality of knives...

I carry a knife to create space so I can transition to my pistol. If I cant get space to get to my pistol then im likely locked up in some sort of grapple/clinch situation in which case I see a knife being very useful. I don't need to it to kill the guy (but if it does then so be it) I just need it to create me an opening.

It baffles me how many people out there though who thinks trying to use a blade defensively is a death sentence for the good guy using the knife. I see this a lot on other forums.

[BehindBlueI's]

Damn my old mind...was it not here that someone like @BBI told of his talks with a serious trial attorney who told him he'd never seen a defensive knife use get spun into a prosecution? Was it a podcast? Fuck, it was great info, too.

Yeah, that was me. I was actually rather surprised by the information. I had long assumed knives would be looked at more harshly, and historically had been. The only documented case of Doc Holiday having to flee a lynch mob was a stabbing. Switchblades were banned largely due to their association with "gangsters", etc. Additionally, crime scene photos are often much more horrific in terms of gore then shootings, which might impact the jury. However when I ran it by our screening prosecutor, who has decades of murder trial experience, he said he had not seen that in court or in screening for potential prosecution. I asked several other deputy prosecutors about it, and about if knife use affected the harshness of sentencing. I asked the lead and assisting prosecutor on one of my cases that went to jury trial where the bad guy had slashed a carjacking victim's neck several times. All said they had never seen the fact it was a knife matter.

As far as effectiveness, per my stats it's been slightly less effective in stopping single attackers then handguns have been and pretty much same-same on multiple attackers (and for the same reasons, if they all stay and fight you're likely to lose, if you hurt/kill the others and they flee you're almost certain to win but with the occasional tie where you get badly hurt as well). Now that is, of course, a comparison of the largely untrained population with a wide variety of cutting instruments, not all of which were knives. As such, the stats are perhaps not of much use to someone who's actually trained and properly equipped. I am a rank neophyte at best in terms of knife fighting, with my only training being what SouthNarc covered in ECQC, which was more counter-knife. As such, I've little else to offer on that front.

[Doc_Glock]

With all respect, that does not appear to be the case, at all. But I think you're conflating a fight stoppage due to physiological shutdown of an attacker and physiological stoppage, period. If you stab someone 57 times and they die 20 minutes later, the knife was an effective physiological stopper in the hands of the stabber, i.e. the tool used stopped, literally, the physiological functions of the stabbee.

It's the 20 minutes between the fight starting and physiological shutdown that makes the difference to the individuals in the fight. We've seen many instances of knife and handgun usage where the fight did not end due to a physiological stop. The difference that might make the handgun more effective is distance. A handgun can be and often is employed at a greater distance that results in one or more parties to the fight fleeing rather quickly from the scene. Where as a "knife fight" is an extreme close quarters scenario that may not offer a rapid escape for either party and thus may continue for an extended period of time.

So what's the take home? If you carry a knife for defensive usage, working on your delivery, control, and escape system is really the most important part. Way too many "knife systems" focus on repeatedly stabbing and re-engaging your opponent, far fewer focus on control and escape of a clinched up scenario. The only two "knife systems" I know that actively integrate and focus on control and escapre are the Shivworks Paradigm and components of the Libre Fighting System.

A handgun is more effective due to the ability to reliably penetrate the CNS. Knives can do it, but they need to be decently large and heavy, more swordlike, which is a different discussion.

[js475]

Regarding the anecdotes that suggest knives are not good physiological stoppers (i.e. guy stabbed 30 times and still fighting back), could a big part of that be attributed to poor anatomical targeting by mostly untrained users? In the majority of knife encounter footage that I've seen or stories I've heard about, people tend to repeatedly stab to the lower abdomen/gut area. I'm not a medical professional, but there don't seem to be good targets in that area that would lead to a fast physiological stop with a 3-4" blade.

If the knife wielder instead targeted major arteries and/or CNS rather than repeatedly stabbing their adversary in the gut, I think the knife would be a much more effective weapon than some detractors believe. I get that hitting those targets is easier said than done, but that's why we train, right? Just like stopping someone with a gun, impact weapon, or empty hand strike, you have to hit them in the right places. I'd be curious if any medical experts here can weigh in on the ideal targets for an EDC blade.

[BigD]

Knife guys spend a lot of time working on cutting their opponents in places that matter, and, given that getting cut in return is an inevitability, trying to only take cuts in areas that are less critical to sustaining life and staying in the fight.


Obv there are levels to what is a “knife guy”, but for most “knife guys” there seems to be 5 that buying a clinch pik and calling it a day. To be fair, the more dedicated are probably putting in the work, but most don’t seem to be going that far.

Props for being the first to mention “you are going to get cut” Not if your attacker’s doesn’t have a knife and you are using yours cause he has you mounted, (or did), is beating the crap out of you, and is trying to disarm you.

[RevolverRob]

A handgun is more effective due to the ability to reliably penetrate the CNS. Knives can do it, but they need to be decently large and heavy, more swordlike, which is a different discussion.

I want to be clear I'm not suggesting that small knives are the best stoppers on the planet, they are not. What you've described above though is a targeting problem. Accuracy matters with knife and fist strikes as much as it does with a handgun. I've dissected enough humans and animals with a 1" scalpel to tell you it isn't hard to reach critical organs/regions with a stabbing motion reliably. I wouldn't want to fight someone off using a small knife if avoidable or with a handgun for that matter (a platoon of Marines and a bunch of high explosives would be better). But you can easily drive a short blade into critical areas, particularly if you can get to the back of your opponent.

But, if you can't target those areas due to circumstances, you'll have plenty of problems. The same is true, regardless of the weapon you are employing. Which brings us back to problem solving the situation. A knife, a gun, a pound of high explosives, they're all tools for solving a problem. If you don't know how to analyze the situation, determine the problem, pick the appropriate solution, and adjust to a changing scenario, you might as well throw rocks at your opponent, it'll probably be as effective.

Which returns us back to the OP. Legal issues aside, the knives "don't work well" is the mantra of someone who hasn't learned to adequately apply the knife. In the right circumstance knives work extremely well. To be a smartass about it we can take the absoluteness of the quote to a logical absurdity, if you were skinning a deer would you rather have a knife or a handgun? Which one would work better?

I guess knives do work well in some circumstances, huh? :rolleyes:

And absolutely, you can argue that some folks over-estimate the knife and its efficacy. Stabbing someone in the pinky with your 18" double-edged Cold Steel dildo isn't like to be any more effective than shooting them in the pinky with a 12-gauge slug.

[TCFD273]

I'd be curious if any medical experts here can weigh in on the ideal targets for an EDC blade.

I wouldn’t call myself an expert...but I’ve done and seen a few things so here goes...

Carotid artery
Brachial artery
Femoral artery
Popliteal artery

Heart

Eyes

CNS

Good luck hitting those in an entangled fight.

I treated a fellow earlier on in my career who took a butcher knife to the chest into the lung, and a slash across the face that went from his left eye, cut his nose in half, and cut both lips open. He still managed to murder his girlfriend after all that.


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[Cory]

I'm not going to say that Varg Freeborn is the end all be all of knife information, but to discount everything he says on the topic seems fool hardy.

His perspective is unique because he did grow up among the criminal element and witnessed a vast amount of crime. The fact is he has actually used a knife defensively, gone through the legal aftermath, and then witnessed (and was the target of) even more blade/knife/shiv attacks.

His experience doesn't mean he has all the answers, but it does mean his perspective and information is worth consideration. For what it's worth he has mentioned that he still carries a knife. I don't think he is against it rather that people need to be fully aware of what lethal level violence with a knife is going to be like, what legal battles can cost, and the serious nature of defense.

I'm more apt to pay attention to someone who has experience, and followed it up with a lot of training than someone who speaks academically based on their perception. That's not a slam at offering real statiatics, they do offer value. Declaritive statements about physiological and psychological stops seem completely void of context and assume way to much for me to buy into.

-Cory

[BehindBlueI's]

In the majority of knife encounter footage that I've seen or stories I've heard about, people tend to repeatedly stab to the lower abdomen/gut area.

I've not thought about it much, but for defensive uses of a knife in my case files, this is true. Offense still has gut wounds but does have more neck, chest, and back injuries. Almost nobody gets stabbed in the face, but if they did you can be almost certain it's a domestic.

Side note, I always liked stabbing cases because the interviews were interesting. There was usually more emotion and a back story behind a good stabbing. Shootings were often just business. Stabbings, though, they were often very personal messages being communicated via knife.

[BillSWPA]

I'm not going to say that Varg Freeborn is the end all be all of knife information, but to discount everything he says on the topic seems fool hardy.

His perspective is unique because he did grow up among the criminal element and witnessed a vast amount of crime. The fact is he has actually used a knife defensively, gone through the legal aftermath, and then witnessed (and was the target of) even more blade/knife/shiv attacks.

His experience doesn't mean he has all the answers, but it does mean his perspective and information is worth consideration. For what it's worth he has mentioned that he still carries a knife. I don't think he is against it rather that people need to be fully aware of what lethal level violence with a knife is going to be like, what legal battles can cost, and the serious nature of defense.

I'm more apt to pay attention to someone who has experience, and followed it up with a lot of training than someone who speaks academically based on their perception. That's not a slam at offering real statiatics, they do offer value. Declaritive statements about physiological and psychological stops seem completely void of context and assume way to much for me to buy into.

-Cory

He has the absolute best comments I have ever seen re: tried by 12 v. carried by 6. In summary, going to jail is like dying but still being here to watch the world go on without you. So, think very seriously before deciding that tried by 12 or carried by 6 are your only options.

I think he has some good points re: knife use, but object to the broad characterization of knives as useless for defense.

[Warped Mindless]

I wouldn’t call myself an expert...but I’ve done and seen a few things so here goes...

Carotid artery
Brachial artery
Femoral artery
Popliteal artery

Heart

Eyes

CNS

Good luck hitting those in an entangled fight.

I treated a fellow earlier on in my career who took a butcher knife to the chest into the lung, and a slash across the face that went from his left eye, cut his nose in half, and cut both lips open. He still managed to murder his girlfriend after all that.


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Working security I have been in my share of entangled fights and while I haven't had to stab someone I have been able to punch people in the face during all of them. If I wanted to use a knife then instead of a punch to the face it would have been a stab to the face (or throat if I wanted to aim lower). I imagine that would have done some pretty extensive damage.

I've seen many bigger guys start fights with smaller guys. During the fights the smaller guy will often land at least one strike to the bigger guys face. It doesn't usually do much damage but they do land one. I always think, "if they one strike was a stab and not a punch things may be different for the little guy." Of course, you have to be trained enough to deploy the knife during a struggle under pressure; not always an easy task for sure.

[TCFD273]

Working security I have been in my share of entangled fights and while I haven't had to stab someone I have been able to punch people in the face during all of them. If I wanted to use a knife then instead of a punch to the face it would have been a stab to the face (or throat if I wanted to aim lower). I imagine that would have done some pretty extensive damage.

I've seen many bigger guys start fights with smaller guys. During the fights the smaller guy will often land at least one strike to the bigger guys face. It doesn't usually do much damage but they do land one. I always think, "if they one strike was a stab and not a punch things may be different for the little guy." Of course, you have to be trained enough to deploy the knife during a struggle under pressure; not always an easy task for sure.

After this I’m bowing out, knife fighting always reminds me of 45 vs 9

Pull a knife out in a fist fight, where there is not a reasonable threat to your life, your going to jail...even after you get knocked out. I know, bc I have scars on my scapula and left bicep. I didn’t run when I saw the knife, it actually made me go after him twice as hard. I was much younger, dumber, and faster then.



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[RevolverRob]

Good luck hitting those in an entangled fight.

Let's do remember that many folks here train regularly in entangled fighting and some also teach entangled fighting and targeting.

I'm not saying that those areas you described are easy to hit, that are not necessarily easy to hit. But I can say, truthfully, that I believe you can train to manipulate an opponent and target those critical areas in an entangled fight. It might not always work and it might not always be pretty, but practice and training can allow a shift from "lucky shot" to "relatively calculated success" quite quickly. It's sort of like algebra, anyone who can do basic arithmetic can learn it, but it takes practice to remember how to do it under pressure, you might not always get it right, but you increase your likelihood of getting it right through practice.

We have to remember that no weapon, be it gun, knife, stick, fist, or high explosive is a panacea nor is it always 100% effective. You can do everything right and still not win the fight.

[Old Man Winter]

Cemeteries are full of people turned room temperature from one hit with a blade and there's more than a few people walking around after multiple gunshot wounds. Does that signal bullets don't work as well as you think?

Regarding legal issues; In Minnesota you must meet four criteria to be legally justified in using Lethal Force. The last item is no lessor force would suffice. To limit your exposure in this state it's recommended you don't carry any kind of blade or other defensive tools while carrying a gun. The powers that be expect you to progress through your tools to solve the problem.

[Lon]

Cemeteries are full of people turned room temperature from one hit with a blade and there's more than a few people walking around after multiple gunshot wounds. Does that signal bullets don't work as well as you think?

Regarding legal issues; In Minnesota you must meet four criteria to be legally justified in using Lethal Force. The last item is no lessor force would suffice. To limit your exposure in this state it's recommended you don't carry any kind of blade or other defensive tools while carrying a gun. The powers that be expect you to progress through your tools to solve the problem.

That’s ignorant. Guns and knives are both deadly weapons = lethal force.

Anyway, 3 outta the 4 homicides this year have been knife related. Like BBI said, a lot more personal.

[43Under]

That’s ignorant. Guns and knives are both deadly weapons = lethal force.


Very much ignorant. If that is an accurate summation of Minnesota's laws then they are no different than anywhere else. And, as Lon said, a knife is deadly force just like a gun.

[BillSWPA]

Cemeteries are full of people turned room temperature from one hit with a blade and there's more than a few people walking around after multiple gunshot wounds. Does that signal bullets don't work as well as you think?

Regarding legal issues; In Minnesota you must meet four criteria to be legally justified in using Lethal Force. The last item is no lessor force would suffice. To limit your exposure in this state it's recommended you don't carry any kind of blade or other defensive tools while carrying a gun. The powers that be expect you to progress through your tools to solve the problem.

The last time I used my knife in an emergency, it was to remove a ribbon that my son had managed to get twisted around his finger tightly enough that it was not easily undone and was cutting off his circulation. I have also used it to cut him out of a car seat with a jammed (later recalled) harness latch.

If you have kids, they probably love escalators. I am aware of an incident wherein a kid lost a foot when a shoelace got caught in an escalator. I have read that there are 10,000-15,000 serious injuries every year from clothing getting caught in escalators.

I am not sure where the advice of not carrying a knife comes from, but I disagree.



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[Old Man Winter]

That’s ignorant. Guns and knives are both deadly weapons = lethal force.

Very ignorant however, it was presented in the last permit to carry course I attended. Upon questioning the instructor I was told it's part of the permit to carry curriculum that has been approved by the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension. I have discussed this with several LE contacts and a prosecutor in my county of residence. They all felt the info was accurate.

[BehindBlueI's]

The last item is no lessor force would suffice. To limit your exposure in this state it's recommended you don't carry any kind of blade or other defensive tools while carrying a gun. The powers that be expect you to progress through your tools to solve the problem.

While your state's case law does have that caveat, a knife is not "lessor force".


..."deadly force" means force which the actor uses with the purpose of causing, or which the actor should reasonably know creates a substantial risk of causing, death or great bodily harm.


Subd. 8.Great bodily harm. "Great bodily harm" means bodily injury which creates a high probability of death, or which causes serious permanent disfigurement, or which causes a permanent or protracted loss or impairment of the function of any bodily member or organ or other serious bodily harm.

A knife is deadly force. Do you have a cite that a knife is treated like a lesser level of force then a gun in MN courts?


...If that is an accurate summation of Minnesota's laws then they are no different than anywhere else. ...

The duty to retreat and "entered reluctantly" makes it a bit different then many other states.

[BillSWPA]

Very ignorant however, it was presented in the last permit to carry course I attended. Upon questioning the instructor I was told it's part of the permit to carry curriculum that has been approved by the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension. I have discussed this with several LE contacts and a prosecutor in my county of residence. They all felt the info was accurate.

Out of all the shooting classes I have taken, the "state approved" concealed carry class in a different state was the worst.

[Old Man Winter]

Do you have a cite that a knife is treated like a lesser level of force then a gun in MN courts?

No, I'm not aware of a test case yet.


Out of all the shooting classes I have taken, the "state approved" concealed carry class in a different state was the worst.

State approved is the only option here. The info is fine but the instructor quality can range from bubba to professional.

[TCinVA]

https://youtu.be/1-akUnEjebo

This seems somewhat relevant to this thread.

[Rex G]

1) Knives don't work as well as most think and it will take over 20 - 30 stabs for them to be effective and it will take to long for this to happen.



How about, “Bullets don’t work as well as most think, and it will take over 20 - 30 shots for them to be effective, and, it will take too long for this to happen.”

Well, OK, not exactly, but, repeatedly shooting a non-vital area can be ineffective. I have only read the original post, so apologize, in advance, if I repeat what others may have already posted.

I also seem to remember that what this “expert” said, regarding the legal aftermath, has already been debated and debunked, either in this forum, or elsewhere.

Just a thought: At contact distance, one should be doing more than just poking holes, whether using a knife or firearm.

Another thought: Depending upon the design of the blade, a knife can accomplish much more than a simple in-and-out puncture, with each thrust.

My wife has an M.D., and an 8” boar-hunting knife. I doubt that she plans to just stand there and perform 20 to 30 in-and-out linear “stabs” to defeat an attacker. (She has a couple of favored handguns, too.)

I need more caffeine, to think clearly, so may type more, after reading the other replies. I am no expert, having received blade training oriented mostly to learning how to avoid being stabbed or cut, while LEO-ing.

[Rex G]

I've not thought about it much, but for defensive uses of a knife in my case files, this is true. Offense still has gut wounds but does have more neck, chest, and back injuries. Almost nobody gets stabbed in the face, but if they did you can be almost certain it's a domestic.

Side note, I always liked stabbing cases because the interviews were interesting. There was usually more emotion and a back story behind a good stabbing. Shootings were often just business. Stabbings, though, they were often very personal messages being communicated via knife.

This reminds me of a conversation I had with a doctor, at Ben Taub General Hospital, one of the two Level One trauma centers in Houston. He told me that women tend to be more likely to successfully inflict a fatal knife wound, because of the relative difference in average height of men and women, puts her in the ideal position to reach his heart, with a reflexive overhand stab, with the blade oriented in reverse grip. He said that men tend to dance around and slice each other, making numerous and large cutting injuries that are much less likely to kill.

Men will, however, kill each other. I recall a case at #’s Club, where two guys, dressed as vampires, had a disagreement over a woman. One very neatly poked the other through the heart, producing a small but lethal heart wound. It was an apparently horizontal thrust. (Yes, there is a contingent of “goth” types who regularly dress and act something like vampires.)

To be clear, I am not advocating thrusting though the rib cage as an ideal way to use a knife defensively.

[TCFD273]

https://youtu.be/1-akUnEjebo

This seems somewhat relevant to this thread.

Defenseless, hands cuffed, and all survived a 1 minute stabbing spree.

If you read other news sources, the attacker, who has been in prison since 2004 for murder, stabbed a guard 32 times months before. He survived as well.

I’m by no means saying I want to be stabbed. Been there, done that kind of thing. But I maintain my initial point, knives do not work as well as many claim.


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[GuanoLoco]

The last time I used my knife in an emergency, it was to remove a ribbon that my son had managed to get twisted around his finger tightly enough that it was not easily undone and was cutting off his circulation. I have also used it to cut him out of a car seat with a jammed (later recalled) harness latch.

If you have kids, they probably love escalators. I am aware of an incident wherein a kid lost a foot when a shoelace got caught in an escalator. I have read that there are 10,000-15,000 serious injuries every year from clothing getting caught in escalators.

I am not sure where the advice of not carrying a knife comes from, but I disagree.

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When I was a child, a mall escalator got ahold of my shoe. I don’t recall exaclty how it happened, but I know it had sucked half of my sneaker into that devil crack before someone managed to turn off the motors. To this day I don’t know how I managed to retract my foot into the 1/2 of the remaining tennis shoe.

I believe the mall bought me a new pair of sneakers. It was a different time...

[TDA]

Thread Drift! I recall a thrilling story from a long ago babysitter who fainted on a mall escalator. A good samaritan on the opposite escalator leaped over and saved her, but “I could have been snatched bald!” was the punchline of the story.

Regarding the actual thread, in my limited experience knife incidents seem to be more sensitive to who the people are and what the circumstances are. Basically everything gun related involves bad guys who have stolen guns/cars/drugs for various bad guy purposes, but anybody can get stabbed. I want to say the whole “knife killers go to jail” thing came from some piece of 1980’s training material, but I can’t remember what exactly. In the first murder trial I participated in as an intern, the defendant argued that the decedant jumped on the knife, and he was acquitted.

[Tactical Black Belt]

Hopefully you will never have to cut or stab another human being but you have as least as good a chance of having to cut a thing in a life or death emergency. For example, I once had to cut part of my shirt off because it was caught up in a big printing press that was running. Another time I used my knife to save a large panicking dog who got his leash wound up around a fence post and was strangling. You might have to cut a seat belt, rope or all sorts of other things to save life or property. Better to have it and not need it...

[BillSWPA]

Hopefully you will never have to cut or stab another human being but you have as least as good a chance of having to cut a thing in a life or death emergency. For example, I once had to cut part of my shirt off because it was caught up in a big printing press that was running. Another time I used my knife to save a large panicking dog who got his leash wound up around a fence post and was strangling. You might have to cut a seat belt, rope or all sorts of other things to save life or property. Better to have it and not need it...

My own limited experience tends to verify this point.



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[Chuck Whitlock]

Hopefully you will never have to cut or stab another human being but you have as least as good a chance of having to cut a thing in a life or death emergency. For example, I once had to cut part of my shirt off because it was caught up in a big printing press that was running. Another time I used my knife to save a large panicking dog who got his leash wound up around a fence post and was strangling. You might have to cut a seat belt, rope or all sorts of other things to save life or property. Better to have it and not need it...

The venue where my wife works, and our son works PT, is hoplophobic...employees are allowed no "weapons", to include pocket knives, and have to walk through a metal detector which is ironically very close to the escalators. I'm thinking that they could point to the escalator and at least justify a rescue hook.

https://www.amazon.com/Yosoo-Outdoor-Survival-Lap-belt-Keychain/dp/B01DIKXP9Q/ref=sr_1_13?crid=PRKWJ5B4J3D&keywords=rescue+hook&qid=1549906934&s=gateway&sprefix=rescue+hook%2Caps%2C520&sr=8-13

[Tactical Black Belt]

The venue where my wife works, and our son works PT, is hoplophobic...employees are allowed no "weapons", to include pocket knives, and have to walk through a metal detector which is ironically very close to the escalators. I'm thinking that they could point to the escalator and at least justify a rescue hook.

We are surrounded by long cylindrical objects, tubes, pipes, rods and dowels. With a little imagination you can stash one at work and as long as it serves some other function, no one will notice or think of it as a weapon. For example, I have a two piece pool cue in a sheath. The butt half is the weapon. The thin half is just a prop. No one can prove that you are not going to play a little 8 ball on your lunch break.

[JodyH]

You might have to cut a seat belt,
I've had to cut so many seatbelts in the past year that I just went out and bought a knife that had a strap cutter in addition to the blade.

[JodyH]

Defenseless, hands cuffed, and all survived a 1 minute stabbing spree.

If you read other news sources, the attacker, who has been in prison since 2004 for murder, stabbed a guard 32 times months before. He survived as well.

I’m by no means saying I want to be stabbed. Been there, done that kind of thing. But I maintain my initial point, knives do not work as well as many claim.

Without seeing the shank you really can't draw any meaningful conclusions from that video or the "stabbed 32 times".
There's quite the difference between getting stabbed/cut with a real knife like a Spyderco Endura and being "sewing machined" with a 2" long "sharpened" toothbrush.

[fwrun]

I would consider an OKC Survival Knife a "real knife." I was involved in an incident in which a victim was stabbed nearly 100 times with one.

Several teeth were knocked out by the blade, and the victim took many blows to the face. Her triceps was sliced open from elbow to armpit, bone deep. She was still suffering defensive wounds to her arms, but was certainly out of the fight, when I arrived. The knife worked quite well for the suspect, but failed to kill the victim.

[BillSWPA]

The whole point of any defensive action is taking the attacker out of the fight. If we were talking about guns, we do not shoot to wound or to kill, but to stop an attack.




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[Old Man Winter]

Hard to argue knives don't work well after watching this video highlighted by Ed's Manifesto. One strike, no sewing machine, and the victim is done in seconds.

p/BtTuwr9lZEq
https://www.instagram.com/p/BtTuwr9lZEq/

[JodyH]

I would consider an OKC Survival Knife a "real knife." I was involved in an incident in which a victim was stabbed nearly 100 times with one.

Several teeth were knocked out by the blade, and the victim took many blows to the face. Her triceps was sliced open from elbow to armpit, bone deep. She was still suffering defensive wounds to her arms, but was certainly out of the fight, when I arrived. The knife worked quite well for the suspect, but failed to kill the victim.
Insert one of a hundred stories about people shot "X" times with "X" firearm and then walking 10 miles uphill to the hospital in a blizzard then being released with just an aspirin a few hours later.

There are just as many "one stab, one kill" stories as there are "stabbed 100 times and patched up with a Band-Aide", neither one is the norm.

[Tactical Black Belt]

The key to knife "stopping power" is stab placement, primarily the eye sockets and the throat. This takes a lot of skill and practice. To test your accuracy take a cardboard box and draw a circle around a quarter on it. Now put it roughly head high. Draw and open your knife from wherever you carry it and stab the circle as fast as you can. If you can repeatedly draw and hit somewhere in that circle or at least touch the edge of the line your accuracy is adequate.

[fwrun]

That’s pretty much my position on it, it is exactly like shot placement in every way.

[JodyH]

That’s pretty much my position on it, it is exactly like shot placement in every way.
Placement and penetration, just like bullets.
Gaping slash wounds and "blow the hide off" birdshot makes for some horrific looking injuries but give me a single deep lung/liver/heart stab or shot anyday if I actually need to put someone down right now.

[Doc_Glock]

Placement and penetration, just like bullets.
Gaping slash wounds and "blow the hide off" birdshot makes for some horrific looking injuries but give me a single deep lung/liver/heart stab or shot anyday if I actually need to put someone down right now.

Yes. This is why bullets are usually more effective stoppers than stabs. Even the lowly .22 FMJ goes in 15-17”. Try that with a shank.

If you are stabbing with a Bowie though....

Anyway agree: placement and penetration.

[RevolverRob]

Even the lowly .22 FMJ goes in 15-17”. Try that with a shank.

Remember that penetration in gel ≠ penetration in human flesh in a 1:1 situation. When you say, ".22 FMJ goes in 15-17"" that's in gel, the average human isn't actually 17" thick and the heart, lungs, liver, and kidneys are only a couple to a few inches under flesh, muscle, and most importantly (for the heart and lungs) bone. When most folks talk about penetration of a blade, they are talking into flesh. To translate, remember that 12" of gel penetration is roughly 7-10" of flesh. In other words, gel shows somewhere on the order of 20-40% more penetration than flesh penetration.

The bone part is the tricky part and a lot of thoracic cavity stabs hit bone and as a result are far less effective in penetration. The sternum and upper portion of the rib cage are fairly stout components of the skeletal system, but a even a short knife driven downwards with a human's body weight on it, can punch through and reach that vital organ you need to hit. It's easier if you can move between the ribs and reach the heart, because the intercostal area isn't home to tons of muscle, actually.

We also have to remember when we're comparing penetration of a knife wound to a gunshot wound that we're not looking at the same injury. A knife gives a wider wound tract than a bullet by virtue of it's width and length (though this also means it slows exponentially faster than a bullet). And though it may not seem like it, remember that leverage + body weight = considerable force that can be exerted with the tool. Force that can easily meet and exceed the amount of force as a handgun bullet hitting flesh (while also having a wider wound tract). I'm no biomechanics expert (I'll leave that to Clusterfrack), but just a general perusal of the human biomech literature indicates that using just the wrist (no trunk, no body weight) humans can exert ~15-20 ft/lbs of max force on a grasped lever. That's 7-10% of your .22 FMJ before you even add a knife, leverage from swinging, or body weight into the equation. That's just my way of saying, humans, even relatively weak ones, can generate a lot of leverage, unless they are mobility limited in some way.

We also must remember that as long as the knife is still in hand, force is continuously exerted on it. That's an important point, because a bullet begins losing force, effectively the instant it leaves the barrel of the gun.

That said, if we could say, launch a Clinch Pick at 2000fps, we'd really have a mean weapon. I dunno what a CP weighs, but a .700NE launches a 1000-grain (65gram/2.2 ounce) projectile at 2000fps and generates ~8900 ft/lbs of energy. That is a substantially mean and nasty amount of force for anything. Which when we get down to it, is why bigger, higher velocity, projectiles work best for incapacitating humans, because they can handily exert as much or more force than a human alone with less physical exertion on the part of the human.

And yes - totally agree with all - if you don't hit vital areas you are accomplishing very little.

[Clusterfrack]

biomechanics ... humans can exert ~15-20 ft/lbs of max force on a grasped lever. That's 7-10% of your .22 FMJ before you even add a knife, leverage from swinging, or body weight into the equation. That's just my way of saying, humans, even relatively weak ones, can generate a lot of leverage, unless they are mobility limited in some way.

We also must remember that as long as the knife is still in hand, force is continuously exerted on it.

Yes, I agree. The peak force isn't necessarily what limits the damage. Unless the blade tip encounters something hard or very tough, it can take little continuously applied force to propagate a "defect" in a viscoelastic material. It seems like the biomechanics of teeth is a good analogy? Maybe more in your field?

Last night we were working on escapes from sudden knife attacks in a MUC, and I had maybe a 25% fail rate. I've got some nice point bruises from those practice knives, and we weren't hitting very hard. I can't say I would rather get shot than stabbed, but some of my bruises are in places that could have been lethal from a single stab.

[RevolverRob]

Yes, I agree. The peak force isn't necessarily what limits the damage. Unless the blade tip encounters something hard or very tough, it can take little continuously applied force to propagate a "defect" in a viscoelastic material. It seems like the biomechanics of teeth is a good analogy? Maybe more in your field?

Good point, I should look at some of the shearing forces and penetrating forces of the canines and incisors. Trouble there is gape and jaw musculature plays a big role in the force generation. There is also a ton of sensory input through the teeth that substantially changes the force rates. Mammal teeth are remarkably sensitive, capable of detecting basically 1-2 N/M of force being applied laterally. I have a good friend and colleague working on this for her dissertation, looking at the sensory system/feedback loop to the brain via tooth ligaments. It's not quite finished, so I won't spoil the fun, but I think her results will be in one of the Big 3 journals at some point late this year or early next.


Last night we were working on escapes from sudden knife attacks in a MUC, and I had maybe a 25% fail rate. I've got some nice point bruises from those practice knives, and we weren't hitting very hard. I can't say I would rather get shot than stabbed, but some of my bruises are in places that would have been lethal from a single stab.

This is a good anecdotal point, but one that reinforces that targeting and placement means everything. Shot in the pinky or stabbed in the liver? No contest, right? Right. Stabbed in the liver vs. shot in the liver? Much closer contest and assuming the same targeting and amount of force applied, I'm not sure which I'd rather be, shot or stabbed.

[Clusterfrack]

This is a good anecdotal point, but one that reinforces that targeting and placement means everything. Shot in the pinky or stabbed in the liver? No contest, right? Right. Stabbed in the liver vs. shot in the liver? Much closer contest and assuming the same targeting and amount of force applied, I'm not sure which I'd rather be, shot or stabbed.

Size matters too. Compare getting stabbed by a knitting needle vs a 12” kitchen knife (like my Paris attacker had)... A big knife is more likely to cut high flow rate blood vessels.

[Chuck Whitlock]

Insert one of a hundred stories about people shot "X" times with "X" firearm and then walking 10 miles uphill to the hospital in a blizzard then being released with just an aspirin a few hours later.

There are just as many "one stab, one kill" stories as there are "stabbed 100 times and patched up with a Band-Aide", neither one is the norm.

something, something..."It's not the odds, it's the stakes"...something or other

[Tactical Black Belt]

What we are really talking about here are relatively small concealable pocket folders. While these can be very deadly and cause very expensive to repair wounds, they are very poor fight stoppers. If you look back in history before the advent of reliable handguns, you will see that when people carried knives as sidearms the blades were generally three or four times the size of your tactical folder. It is impractical for most of us to carry the modern equivalent, a 12" Bowie or a kukri at work. Bowies are more like a short sword and could easily run a man through or lop a hand off. A single chop to the head with a kirkri can cleave a skull to the teeth. The sort of pocket knives and small daggers that you are likely to actually carry just does not have enough mass to effectively chop or slash. About the only thing left is a deep penetrating stab to something vital. The problem is that knives by their very nature sever nerves and there is generally not a lot of pain involved. This leaves only blood loss which can take a very long time to have any real effect on a determined attacker. Sure you might get an instant stop with a stab to the eye or by severing the corroded artery, but in the chaos of a real fight, most people can't count on anything better than a few random hits to the hands and arms and maybe a couple somewhere on the torso. The reality is that if you are not a pretty good puncher you are not going to be a good stabber either.

[Oukaapie]

I may have lost track of this discussion but blades are deadly and can stop people fast when used properly. Distance is the challenge against a gun but in terms of deadly effect, a short movement can pretty much bisect a liver, a kidney, take away breathing, prevent the ability to grasp tools, leave intestines flopping about on the ground. They can also do a smashing job at making people not want to screw with you. They do a great job at getting people off you. All of these options are of course performed best with good training. Blades have a place somewhat like a 380/38. Great option when you cannot carry a pistol, or your pistol needs a friend.

Let me know if you are in DFW and want some stabby practice or an espresso.

[SeriousStudent]

I am thinking espresso, then stabby practice.

[Tactical Black Belt]

Here is a link to a video showing two people take a solid stab to the body and neither drop immediately. The lady stabbed in the lung even had the presence of mind to pick up her purse afterward. Even though these people were gravely injured they were not "stopped". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQWDUgixf6U

[willie]

We are surrounded by long cylindrical objects, tubes, pipes, rods and dowels. With a little imagination you can stash one at work and as long as it serves some other function, no one will notice or think of it as a weapon. For example, I have a two piece pool cue in a sheath. The butt half is the weapon. The thin half is just a prop. No one can prove that you are not going to play a little 8 ball on your lunch break.

When I worked the retirement center/nursing home security, I kept a number of pipes and such in various places. Also I kept a big pair of needle nose pliers on me. I was already approaching senior status and would have lost any fracas taking me to the ground. I required a legal motivator. For me danger arose from angry men showing up to beat wives and girl friends. Also employee drug use was rampant and drug dealers tried entering. I was under orders not to call police. Bad publicity. My defense rested in a firm demeanor where I said little and spoke with courtesy. Once when walking the grounds, a man to whom I had denied entrance appeared out of nowhere and spoke in an unkind manner, and while referring to me as an old white haired son of a bitch exclaimed that he could whip me. I agreed that he could but pointed out that for $8.00 per hour I was not going to take an ass beating. He understood and left. The old folks said that they felt safe when I was there. That was a wonderful compliment.

[BillSWPA]

In the pistols for ladies thread in the semiauto subforum, one poster reported his wife using a Spyderco Delica (2.9 inch blade folder) to dissuade two attackers with one deep slash cut to each attacker’s arm. Although using a knife is clearly deadly force, I do not recall that story including police involvement.

The one time I saw a knife used, my former neighbor in another city used a kitchen knife to drive off an abusive ex-boyfriend. She did not land any serious cuts or stabs, despite his weak, tenuous, ineffective attempts to disarm her almost resulting in getting his hands cut up. He ended up running off with her chasing him.

A knife is not my first choice, but I would not be without one.



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[Gun Mutt]

In the pistols for ladies thread in the semiauto subforum, one poster reported his wife using a Spyderco Delica (2.9 inch blade folder) to dissuade two attackers with one deep slash cut to each attacker’s arm. Although using a knife is clearly deadly force, I do not recall that story including police involvement.

That would be my wife and the only police involvement was the couple hours she spent on the phone with a chosen brother of mine that is a certified crisis counselor for his department.

Another chosen brother and I visited the bar ourselves. The bartenders remembered the bogies and were under the impression that they were staying at the nearby hotel. They didn't mention two bleeding guys coming back in, so I didn't bring it up either, better part of discretion and all that. I'm not all surprised that two assholes that are willing to attack women were not willing to tell the authorities that a 5'3" killer elf tried to take their lunch money. I truly hope she crippled both of them and that they hurt to this day. If there'd been a couple of guys sporting fresh bandages when we visited, I would have ensured it.

[Tactical Black Belt]

I knew a man years ago who worked as a bouncer in a rough beer joint out in the county. He carried a big heavy Buck 110 in a belt pouch as a weapon. He explained to me that he NEVER opened it but used in a hammer fist motion or to add weight to his punches sort of like a roll of nickels. His objective was not to kill or seriously injure people but to stop them. I think that he was right. Blunt force trauma is a far superior "manstopper" than gradual blood loss.

[RevolverRob]

I knew a man years ago who worked as a bouncer in a rough beer joint out in the county. He carried a big heavy Buck 110 in a belt pouch as a weapon. He explained to me that he NEVER opened it but used in a hammer fist motion or to add weight to his punches sort of like a roll of nickels. His objective was not to kill or seriously injure people but to stop them. I think that he was right. Blunt force trauma is a far superior "manstopper" than gradual blood loss.

Blunt force trauma is a vastly superior fight stopper in most instances, because of the simple fact that leverage is increased and force is applied to a wider area. Meaning it often renders a human mobility limited in short order.

I'd rather smash someone with a flat sap or jack than stab them any day of the week. Short strikes to the ribcage with the edge of a sap or point of a jack can break ribs. Edge hits to joints can mangle them. Solid hits to the face can knock someone out more or less instantaneously. I have a little Foster cable jack that is a no joke, nasty little weapon (should say "had", my wife stole it five years ago and refuses to give it back, but I picked up a midget sap to replace it). My brother-in-law is 6'5" 280 pounds and wanted to find out if the cable jack would "work". One ~30% speed hook shot to the mid-thigh bowled him over. If, I'd wanted to fuck him up, it would have been easy. (For comparison purposes, I'm 5'7" and ~190 pounds, he is quite a bit bigger than me).

I've been smashed with non-loaded, relatively soft leather training saps, and they...fucking hurt, maybe worse than aluminum knife trainers.

[BillSWPA]

Blunt force trauma is a vastly superior fight stopper in most instances, because of the simple fact that leverage is increased and force is applied to a wider area. Meaning it often renders a human mobility limited in short order.

I'd rather smash someone with a flat sap or jack than stab them any day of the week. Short strikes to the ribcage with the edge of a sap or point of a jack can break ribs. Edge hits to joints can mangle them. Solid hits to the face can knock someone out more or less instantaneously. I have a little Foster cable jack that is a no joke, nasty little weapon (should say "had", my wife stole it five years ago and refuses to give it back, but I picked up a midget sap to replace it). My brother-in-law is 6'5" 280 pounds and wanted to find out if the cable jack would "work". One ~30% speed hook shot to the mid-thigh bowled him over. If, I'd wanted to fuck him up, it would have been easy. (For comparison purposes, I'm 5'7" and ~190 pounds, he is quite a bit bigger than me).

I've been smashed with non-loaded, relatively soft leather training saps, and they...fucking hurt, maybe worse than aluminum knife trainers.

Agree 100% with the effectiveness of a sap or jack for stopping a fight as compared to a knife. I would add that I recall a member of the Dog Brothers posting on SDF that hits to the arm with a stick often causes a dropped weapon, while cuts with a knife seem to be far less consistent in doing so.

Unfortunately most of us live in states where a sap or jack is not a legal option. In most states one need not fear arrest simply for having a folding knife of reasonable length clipped to a pocket.



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[Clusterfrack]

Also, edged weapons work while grappling. I’m not good enough with a stick to make it work in a FUT.

[45dotACP]

Man if a sap or jack were legal in IL I'd be looking for one yesterday.

As it stands, my thoughts on knives are mostly regarding their utility, but my BJJ gym was drilling some knife defense from guard and I found it involved a lot of trying to tie up the arms and not get stabbed a lot. It's tough to handle a knife from an unarmed perspective, and as a weapon I can see where it can augment a skilled grappler's toolbox.

Although I can't think of a lot of times where getting a dude in side control and stabbing him will play well in court, if he is trying to cave my face in with a rock or a bottle from my guard and I have to stab him a few times so I can stand up and get away...it'll have to do.

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[RevolverRob]

There are various coin purses (Green Man Leather might be where I'd look); that can easily hold the change you need to effectively use public transit within an urban environment. I like to carry cash in a coin purse with a retention strap, that makes it so you can easily hold onto it. Keeps you from being pick-pocketed. A good traveler and explorer never leaves home without cash. Coin form is quite convenient for buses, soda machines, condom machines, etc, but you can also easily put some bills in there too.

[Tactical Black Belt]

A small draw string sack of coins makes an excellent improvised sap if you have to fly or go someplace that you absolutely can't carry a weapon.

[1slow]

Padlock and strap, sock/bag and any hard heavy object etc....

[Joe in PNG]

Padlock and strap, sock/bag and any hard heavy object etc....

'Unbreakable' umbrella

[BillSWPA]

'Unbreakable' umbrella

Has anyone tried one of these? I like the unbreakable part but the degree of flexibility leaves me skeptical.



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[Tactical Black Belt]

Walking sticks are legal everywhere in the US, even on airplanes, and are covered by the ADA as medical devices. A heavy stick weighing a solid pound or more makes a ferocious weapon in trained hands.

[BillSWPA]

Walking sticks are legal everywhere in the US, even on airplanes, and are covered by the ADA as medical devices. A heavy stick weighing a solid pound or more makes a ferocious weapon in trained hands.

I recently ordered a Cold Steel City Stick for exactly that reason. However, I hope it will be at least another 3 decades before I look like I need a cane.



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[Tactical Black Belt]

I recently ordered a Cold Steel City Stick for exactly that reason. However, I hope it will be at least another 3 decades before I look like I need a cane.

It does not matter what you "look like" walking sticks are legal everywhere.

[BigD]

It does not matter what you "look like" walking sticks are legal everywhere.

I think he’s saying he hopes he doesn’t look he needs a cane for at least 3 decades.

[BillSWPA]

It does not matter what you "look like" walking sticks are legal everywhere.

I respectfully disagree.

I am self-employed, and every new meeting with a prospective client is essentially a mini job interview.

If you work for someone else, being the weird dude in the workplace is not the way to upward mobility.

If I am at my kid’s school, how I am perceived by other parents is going to have an impact on the number and quality of friends my kids have.

If I have a need to be out at night in a high crime area where I cannot carry a gun, then perhaps I care a lot less about appearance, but that is not my normal.



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