Any of you .Gov types personally feeling the pinch?

[Totem Polar]

Just saw this on FB, posted by a friend and trainer/mentor who's a no-shit BTDT DoD guy. Anyone else see this in their life yet? unacceptable...

"You can’t make this up. Just notified after two missed checks as a Fed I lose my dental and vision. And after three I lose my retirement and will be billed for the lack of payments owed. If I don’t pay them it will become taxable income. Hahahaha! You couldn’t make this shit more funny if it was a Benny Hill skit..."

Just curious as if to it's really the total goat rope it looks like from the outside.

[blues]

I wrote one of my two senators yesterday evening and told him it's time to un-fuck this situation.

(My retirement, thankfully, is not subject to the vagaries of the shutdown...but I am feeling sympathy pain on behalf of my former federal brethren that are being held hostage by this debacle.)

I don't know, personally, whether the specific items detailed in your quoted material are true or not. If they are, then it is unconscionable to take this clusterfuck further.

[JV_]

No change for me, we're fully funded.

[Drang]

I asked a friend about this situation. Benefits continue, but when the situation is un-fucked they'll owe back pay for the employee portions of fees. This friend is one of the "working for free" Feds (i.e., not furloughed because position is one of the critical ones) so the fees will be taken out of the back pay, as will employee contributions to retirement programs.

[JV_]

but when the situation is un-fucked they'll owe back pay for the employee portions of fees.I'd bet a lot that they will get back pay, so they won't be out anything in the end.

[Drang]

My friend said that those who work, MUST get paid for it, and that recent history has been that those who did not, were anyway. I can see several arguments in favor of paying everybody, it's not like they created the situation, and it's certainly easier to just go ahead, but I think the question is, will Trump go ahead and take care of the little guy -- anecdotal evidence is that he DOES try and take care of the workers -- or will he see it as an opportunity to cut government costs? If the latter, I expect GOP leadership to try and talk him out of it, or to override the decision in Congress, in hopes of avoiding alienating Federal employees to the point they turn this into a campaign issue in 2020.

And, BTW, I predict that we will see this again for the 2020 and 2021 budgets, especially if Pelosi is still wielding the gavel.

[JV_]

Back-pay is being addressed legislatively, so unless he plans to veto it, they will get paid.

PS> There will be a HUGE exodus of talent if there's no back-pay for a long duration furlough.

[Totem Polar]

Good feedback thus far, thanks.

[JRB]

I'm also in a funded position so I'm not in the mess this time around.

But in times past when we had a shutdown, we were fully back-paid when the .gov finally rebooted. Mildly annoying but no big deal to just put life on a CC and pay it off when we got back paid.

I'm mildly annoyed by all the histrionics about the .gov workers affected by the shutdown. Too many people/articles/media etc are reporting this like it's unprecedented when it's damn sure happened in the recent past over other dumb shit, and I don't know of a single instance when someone working hadn't been back-paid when it started all back up.
I have read and heard that there were times when furloughed employees were only partially back-paid. But I have not personally been affected that way.

But it all leads me to believe that anyone with a gov job that's honestly in a bad spot because of all this has been doing the financial equivalent of driving their car on bald tires without a spare, and only an 1/8th of a tank.

[RevolverRob]

It's pinching others too. Folks on National Science Foundation, National Institute for Health, and even DOE/DOD fellowships are getting squeezed. At this point their fellowships are "on hold". It's unclear if when the furlough ends if they will get the money that was supposed to be paid out - or if they will get extensions on their funding windows - or if they are shit out of luck. Last time, some individuals got extensions but some got screwed. In other words, if your contract stipulates a start and end date with no room for extension and you were furloughed for 4 months, you just never got those four months pay and they didn't extend your contract, to get it to you.

I know a couple of people whose careers are literally hanging in the balance right now. If things don't get unfucked in the next 60-days a number of them will be completely penniless and unable to finish the work they've been doing until their unfrozen and unfucked. Which could be never...

And I feel bad, but I also don't. Unfortunately, when you become dependent on the political system for a paycheck - you are now subject to the whims of the political system. I say this as someone who has a future that is currently hinged on 3-years of salary from the government, but I have the privilege of having a spouse who isn't employed by a political system and the privilege of having greater financial stability than my colleagues. In other words, I feel bad, but sometimes...we have to make smart decisions and not pursue certain types of careers if we cannot afford to.

[JV_]

AFAIK, essential employees have to be paid. They can't work for free, it's covered by U.S.C. 1342. They may have to wait for their pay, but it's coming.

The furloughed can apply for unemployment benefits, but when back-pay is done, they have to return the unemployment.

I just read some statistic that something like 78% of the Americans are paycheck to paycheck.

[blues]

I'm not sure how many times I've gone through gov't shutdowns from 1977 to 2004 but it was a few. I was never not made whole.

That said, I worked around plenty of folks who lived paycheck to paycheck and didn't prepare for the unexpected. Yes, that was on them for lack of foresight and planning (to the extent they could).

Fortunately, for those in dire need there are provisions to take loans from the retirement system which must then be repaid (to themselves, essentially). I've never had to explore anything like that during my career.

[Matt O]

My wife is a contract language instructor for the State Department so we're minus that nice bit of income currently. Thankfully she has some other projects on the side and I'm the insurance provider, but it's less than ideal financially, that's for sure. We just did a big house remodeling project and I'm pretty friggin' grateful that's done and paid for prior to this debacle.

[Kyle Reese]

Anyone think that this shutdown could continue into the spring?

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[Otaku.edc]

Best of luck to those caught up in this.

[revchuck38]

Anyone think that this shutdown could continue into the spring?

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It's certainly possible, but I doubt it. My understanding is that the majority of Federal civilian employees are Democrats, and I'm sure they'll be bringing heat on Democratic legislators.

I was a DoD contractor for several years and went through a shutdown. The company I worked for stepped up and kept paying us since we were required to keep working.

[GardoneVT]

Anyone think that this shutdown could continue into the spring?

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Yes.

It’s my hope to avoid pointless partisan bickering , but I feel this must be said; this 20 day shutdown and the impact it’s having is a *Washington DC* failure, not just one party or person. Passing a goddamn budget is a basic function of any organization which spends money.

It’s a point I will remember in the elections to come.

[blues]

My understanding is that the majority of Federal civilian employees are Democrats

Where is such info gleaned? I can't remember anyone polling me on my political affiliation or lack thereof during my 27 years working for "uncle".

[revchuck38]

Where is such info gleaned? I can't remember anyone polling me on my political affiliation or lack thereof during my 27 years working for "uncle".

It's one of those "I read it somewhere" things and I don't remember where I read it. All my time directly employed by my rich uncle was in the Army, and I don't recall being asked about my political affiliation either.

[Bigghoss]

The branch I work for is fully funded. I've been through all three now and in the past they have said we might not get paid until after the shutdown ended but so far I've always been paid on time. My buddy used to work for the Corps of Engineers and he was laid of in 2013 but they ended up backpaying everyone.

[JV_]

I've also never been asked, but I don't doubt that the may have a majority considering the surrounding areas are fairly liberal. You have to go pretty far west, towards Fauquier county, before you have have a republican majority.

[HCM]

It's certainly possible, but I doubt it. My understanding is that the majority of Federal civilian employees are Democrats, and I'm sure they'll be bringing heat on Democratic legislators.

I was a DoD contractor for several years and went through a shutdown. The company I worked for stepped up and kept paying us since we were required to keep working.

The majority of federal civilian employees in DC may be democrats but that simply reflects the demeographics of the area. Otherwise your understanding is incorrect. Overall Fed Gov employees are a 50/50 mix like the general population.

[Drang]

Vis a vis "how long will it last?":1083260479542181888

[S Jenks]

My youngest brother is an E5 in the CG, him and the S-I-L have over three month’s worth in bills and mortgage payments tucked away. He also has a rental property occupied by a few junior naval officers so he’s not too worried right now.

It sounds like a number of his immediate coworkers aren’t as confident at the moment.

[trailrunner]

I'm DoD and we have a full budget funded, so this hasn't affected me. I think ridership on the metro is down, but my bus seems to mostly have the normal amount of people.

I was furloughed during the summer of 2013 and I lost pay. We also got a zero pay raise that year (actually, three years in a row, I believe). Then when the government shut down later in 2013 (beginning of FY14), we had enough carryover funding for a couple of weeks to get us through the shutdown.

I was talking to a guy last night that works for the State Department. He hasn't worked during this shutdown. He's my age, and is probably reasonably financially secure, and he said his wife works, so for him, he can make it through this without too much pain. He viewed this is a vacation that will eventually be paid. But for younger people who have a tighter budget, it must be hard.

I heard a bunch of meteorologists complaining that they couldn't make it to their annual conference. I don't have a lot of sympathy for them. Again, back to 2013 - in addition to the budget problems, that was right after the GSA travel scandal, so we had *extremely* strict rules about travel, and each trip had to get individually reviewed and approved. In particular, conferences required 4-star review, and as a result, our symposium was cancelled for two or three years. I also remember during the 1995 shutdown happened right in the middle of a conference, and all the government employees had to fly home pronto. Boo hoo. Life went on.

Sometimes contractors win, sometimes they lose. One place I worked, when we shutdown, the contractors kept working because they had funding obligated on contract and could charge against it. However, I heard that someone said they couldn't work if their government customers weren't in the office. I argued that they would probably be twice as productive if they could work on their own without our interference. :o

[DMF13]

Any of you .Gov types personally feeling the pinch?Yes, and despite having some "emergency funds," it is still going to hurt. The young folks, at the lower pay grades, who haven't had as much time/opportunity to build up any "emergency funds," are having a much rougher time.

[randyho]

Relatives at FLETC and a Coastie in the office for whom we'll probably be buying food. This is a pooburger.

[Nephrology]

It's pinching others too. Folks on National Science Foundation, National Institute for Health, and even DOE/DOD fellowships are getting squeezed. At this point their fellowships are "on hold".

...where are you getting this from? I am currently being funded by a NIH (NHLBI) NRSA F31 Fellowship and I received my paycheck on time this month. To my knowledge my entire annual award amount was disbursed to my division when I got my NOA in July.

[John Hearne]

Both my wife and I work for the Feds. I'm working every day but she's at home. I have not doubt that my work will be compensated and I'm 80% confident my wife will get back pay as well.

I've never been happier to be a Dave Ramsey follower. The only thing I'll do differently after this mess is bump the emergency fund up by 25%.

[Nephrology]

Vis a vis "how long will it last?":1083260479542181888

She hasn't been a relevant celebrity for the majority of my natural life

[Cookie Monster]

My last paycheck dropped on the 28th of December, it was already in the cue. Next check would of dropped into the account tomorrow or the next. My wife stays home with our two boys so I am the only check coming in but we got an emergency fund so we are good probably until middle March. We have postponed planning a trip to visit family in March and tightened up spending/projects thinking this will go long.

Folks at my office have been gathering at the local brewery once a week, some filed for unemployment and others are just riding it out. A mix of worry for some folks and a vacation for others.

A few more weeks and we’ll have skipped over our planned seasonal hiring event, trainings, and the effects could ride into wildland fire season.

[RevolverRob]

...where are you getting this from? I am currently being funded by a NIH (NHLBI) NRSA F31 Fellowship and I received my paycheck on time this month. To my knowledge my entire annual award amount was disbursed to my division when I got my NOA in July.

Bolded part is the key.

If your institution administers your disbursement you're just fine. Some institutions do not and have NSF/NIH/etc disburse the funds to the fellow. This is particularly the case for NSF post-doctoral fellowships where the fellow is the PI. Some institutions only accept a portion of the disbursement at a time, depending on how they do their books. For folks at those institutions, they are up shit creek*. I know people at Iowa State, Vanderbilt, and University of Florida who are all in this realm (either the institution didn't receive the whole amount of NSF/NIH paid them directly).

My wife is a grants and contracts administrator, she could go on for hours about how money is distributed from funding agencies to institutions and how much it varies from place to place. I hear about it - every single day. It's great for me, because I know what's up often before most others, but I also hear about it, every single day.

*Unless their institutions cover the costs, knowing they'll eventually get the money from the funding agency. Private institutions are more likely to do this, some folks like the ones I know at Iowa State are to put it simply, screwed.

PS: It is primarily folks on post-doctoral fellowships that are getting shafted. In general, students who are receiving F31s or NSF GRFPs have guaranteed funds from their respective institutions, such that the institution will cover your pay, until the funding agency pays you again (assuming, again, that your institution isn't disbursing your funds to you). I've seen it mixed 50:50 on NSF GRFPs where NSF sends the student a check or the institution sends the student a paycheck.

[TGS]

My bureau is funded through sometime early February, and I’m still even getting paid my OT. So, we haven’t really felt it yet.

Another aspect to consider are federally funded state level programs. My wife works for a state, and they’re 50/50 funded between state tax and federal. They’re good until August, but I bet there’s state agencies looking at some serious issues already if their state funding isn’t as robust.

[wrmettler]

My daughter recently got a job with the Tonto National Forest (Department of Agriculture).
She waited for a long time to be hired and really likes the job.

No savings of notice. She was over here this afternoon cleaning our house for some money to cover bills.
If this isn't resolved soon. she'll have to start looking for another job.
She's really upset about the situation.

[RJ]

There hasn’t been a relevant celebrity for the majority of my natural life

FIFY


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[Nephrology]

FIFY


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Ahem

https://www.famousbirthdays.com/faces/offerman-nick-image.jpg

[mtnbkr]

Ahem

https://www.famousbirthdays.com/faces/offerman-nick-image.jpg

Have you ever read anything he's written (I have, two books' worth)? He's NOT Ron Swanson.

Chris

[Nephrology]

Bolded part is the key.

If your institution administers your disbursement you're just fine. Some institutions do not and have NSF/NIH/etc disburse the funds to the fellow. This is particularly the case for NSF post-doctoral fellowships where the fellow is the PI.

I am PI on my grant. Based on the structure of the funding request in the grant, I am surprised they NIH would disburse money on a monthly basis. Funds are requested in a fairly strictly itemized list of annual expenses. e.g.

https://i.imgur.com/kHAH3TE.png






*Unless their institutions cover the costs, knowing they'll eventually get the money from the funding agency. Private institutions are more likely to do this, some folks like the ones I know at Iowa State are to put it simply, screwed.

PS: It is primarily folks on post-doctoral fellowships that are getting shafted. In general, students who are receiving F31s or NSF GRFPs have guaranteed funds from their respective institutions, such that the institution will cover your pay, until the funding agency pays you again (assuming, again, that your institution isn't disbursing your funds to you). I've seen it mixed 50:50 on NSF GRFPs where NSF sends the student a check or the institution sends the student a paycheck.



To my knowledge, the NIH won't cover 100% of your tuition anyway (I had to re-submit my tuition/fees breakdown after the bounced my first one for requesting 100% tuition support) so at least some portion will need to be covered by your PI or a TAship.

Also, I don't really know of many institutions/programs that cover student funding costs independent of NIH (or other grant-based) funding (Mayo Graduate School is the only exception that comes to mind). As an MD PhD student at U Colorado, my first two years (MD) were covered by our program's NIH MSTP T32 training grant, first ~9 months of PhD came out of my PI's R01, and I have been funded by my F31 since (with ~15% of my overall costs still coming out of my PI's R01). The only 'institutional' (non-NIH awarded) money that will pay for my education will be MSTP program funding to cover my last year or 2 of med school once my F31 is up.

Not saying you're necessarily wrong, but it doesn't ring true with my experience, and I've been funded continuously by the NIH in one way, shape, or form since September 2013 (Post-bac R01 supplement for 2 years at Mayo Clinic before moving to CO) so this isn't my first gov't shutdown while on the Fed's dime.

[pangloss]

...where are you getting this from? I am currently being funded by a NIH (NHLBI) NRSA F31 Fellowship and I received my paycheck on time this month. To my knowledge my entire annual award amount was disbursed to my division when I got my NOA in July.

NIH has funding until Sept. 30 and has not been impacted. If your institution receives the complete disbursement in July, you should be good through June 30, 2020.

NSF is mostly off from work. Their grant submission portal is still up (including technical support), but I think all grant reviews have stopped.

Sent from my Moto G Play using Tapatalk

[Nephrology]

Have you ever read anything he's written (I have, two books' worth)? He's NOT Ron Swanson.

Chris

Disappointing. I'll have to skip on the books to keep my fantasy alive!


NIH has funding until Sept. 30 and has not been impacted. If your institution receives the complete disbursement in July, you should be good through June 30, 2020.

NSF is mostly off from work. Their grant submission portal is still up (including technical support), but I think all grant reviews have stopped.

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Yeah that was my impression as well. NIH seems to agree (https://nexus.od.nih.gov/all/2019/01/07/nih-operational-during-partial-federal-government-shutdown/) :P

UW has this (https://www.washington.edu/research/announcements/partial-fed-govt-shutdown-dec-2018/) to say about the NSF:


National Science Foundation (NSF): Information About the Government Shutdown for NSF Proposers and Grantees
Will continue to accept proposals in accordance with published deadlines
Proposals will not be processed until normal operations resume
No new funding opportunities will be issued
No new grants or cooperative agreements will be awarded
Awardees may continue performance under their NSF awards to extent funds are available and within the awarded period of performance
No payments will be made
Grantee-approved no-cost extensions (i.e. notification in Fastlane) can be processed
NSF-approved no-cost extension will NOT be processed

[mtnbkr]

Disappointing. I'll have to skip on the books to keep my fantasy alive!

That's not to say he's a bad guy, just not Ron, something he goes through some effort to point out. In many ways he's way left of the typical gun owner and does mock the NRA and the gun lobby a bit, but in many other ways he's more in line with us than you'd think. He's very much a "do it yourself" kind of guy and strives for decency in how he treats others. His book on woodworking is worth a read if you have the slightest inclination to work in that medium.

Chris

[JRB]

It's one of those "I read it somewhere" things and I don't remember where I read it. All my time directly employed by my rich uncle was in the Army, and I don't recall being asked about my political affiliation either.

I've been in and out of a lot of Federal workplaces and made small talk with a lot of other .gov folks.

There's a very real PC-culture sort of thing that applies across the board when you're 'feeling out' someone new or trying not to make waves as the new guy in a building. That PC-culture sort of thing could easily be described as left-leaning if not totally left. I imagine it causes for mistaken ID on political beliefs or affiliation.

Get most of us away from the flagpole, though, and we're talking about guns and fast cars and metal concerts and all that kind of stuff. Especially among Fed civilians that are prior service or in the Reserve/National Guard. And there's a lot of prior service in these positions because of the hiring strategies that focus on deployed veterans.

That said, I've never once been asked straight up about political affiliations by anyone. Even when four of us piled into a POV to go to vote this past Nov and take our ~2hrs voting leave, the conversation there and back was very deliberately apolitical.

[HCM]

Have you ever read anything he's written (I have, two books' worth)? He's NOT Ron Swanson.

Chris

Not even close. Liberal democrat. Claims he was a "hunter" but supports gun control.

The scotch / steak/ carpentry are him in real life but otherwise he is a mirror image of Ron Swanson.

[RevolverRob]

I am PI on my grant. Based on the structure of the funding request in the grant, I am surprised they NIH would disburse money on a monthly basis. Funds are requested in a fairly strictly itemized list of annual expenses. e.g.

NIH typically sends the total amount to the institution, but again it's institutionally dependent. In this case it doesn't matter, because NIH can still disburse funds to the institution. Even though F31s have you as the PI, they require a sponsor. One of the core components to receiving an F31 is that your sponsor(s) already have existing funding in place. In other words, NIH gives F31s under the pretext that your sponsor has additional funds to cover your needs beyond the F31. I applied to F31 and was denied because my sponsor had no existing money.



To my knowledge, the NIH won't cover 100% of your tuition anyway (I had to re-submit my tuition/fees breakdown after the bounced my first one for requesting 100% tuition support) so at least some portion will need to be covered by your PI or a TAship.

Right. That's why you need a sponsor to cover additional funding needs.




Also, I don't really know of many institutions/programs that cover student funding costs independent of NIH (or other grant-based) funding (Mayo Graduate School is the only exception that comes to mind). As an MD PhD student at U Colorado, my first two years (MD) were covered by our program's NIH MSTP T32 training grant, first ~9 months of PhD came out of my PI's R01, and I have been funded by my F31 since (with ~15% of my overall costs still coming out of my PI's R01). The only 'institutional' (non-NIH awarded) money that will pay for my education will be MSTP program funding to cover my last year or 2 of med school once my F31 is up.

Not saying you're necessarily wrong, but it doesn't ring true with my experience, and I've been funded continuously by the NIH in one way, shape, or form since September 2013 (Post-bac R01 supplement for 2 years at Mayo Clinic before moving to CO) so this isn't my first gov't shutdown while on the Fed's dime.

You're in a unique position being an MD-PhD student. PhD students in STEM are often guaranteed 5-years of funding. Awards that students get offset the institution's investment, but student support is rarely wholly (or even partly) contingent upon receiving external funding. There is no statement about how those 5 years of funding are provided (i.e. a combination of TAs and RAs usually).
_____

So, it does appear I was wrong about NIH and DOD, they are funded through Sept, due to having their appropriations bill approved. The individual I thought was on NIH is actually on NSF. NSF on the other hand is frozen along with NASA and a number of other programs (FDA and partial freezing of funds from DOE).

A number of people funded via NSF/NASA/agencies with funds not currently appropriated are hanging in the balance right now. When the shutdown ends, it is unclear if they will receive the awards they should have received (probably) or if their funding window expired during this time, they may not receive the funds at all, it is also unclear if funding windows will be extended.

Another thing to note - Government shutdowns rarely affect grad students. They most directly affect post-doctoral researchers and anyone who may be hired as contract labor under a grant (i.e., staff, not otherwise supported directly by the institution).

It also is not affecting everyone equally. My current institution administers all funds directly and requests full annual amounts. So, at least here, regardless of funding agency, 12-months of funding was requested in Sept. '18 and people will continue to get paid and move forward. My previous institution did not request 12-months of funding, but instead requested funding based on academic-term increments, this seems to be a common practice for some institutions. It is very institutional-dependent.

[jetfire]

My federal position is funded so that's not an issue. My friends in the Coast Guard are starting to get nervous because if something doesn't change real quick they're probably not going to get paid on the 15th, and that would suck a big fat dick. Apparently CG families are getting told to have yard sales and take up driving Uber to help makes end meet.

[JDD]

My bureau is funded through sometime early February, and I’m still even getting paid my OT. So, we haven’t really felt it yet.

Another aspect to consider are federally funded state level programs. My wife works for a state, and they’re 50/50 funded between state tax and federal. They’re good until August, but I bet there’s state agencies looking at some serious issues already if their state funding isn’t as robust.

Really? The guidance they pushed out specifically stated that we have to take our OT hours as LEAP. Given that I am sitting at a 2.87 LEAP average, I am feeling pretty feisty about that one.

Financially I am ok for a good amount of time, mostly because I stopped my automatic payments into my index funds around the first set of trade war headlines last year, so I have a pretty solid pile of cash on hand above and beyond my emergency fund.

On an operational level, we are going to be in a really bad place as soon as some of the pots of money that we have start running out. A number of my key staff are contractors who will be paid, right up to the point where their obligated funding runs out. I also have a separate group of 350 staff who literally live paycheck to paycheck, and if the pot of money they are paid out of runs out, there will literally be people dying because we could not come through on our obligations.

[TGS]

Really? The guidance they pushed out specifically stated that we have to take our OT hours as LEAP.

"Prudent OT" or whatever the language was. Regular CS/FS are being told to claim comp-time, but the guidance is that special agents aren't allowed to use comp-time in lieu of for anything but travel, and that it must instead be claimed as LEAP. However the way it was written doesn't preclude the use of OT at management's discretion, though.

Basically, anything my office does is still paid OT (via WSP funding), especially since there's various carve-outs for operations in support of who we're working for....I imagine it might differ for your assignment. Anything that is claimed as LEAP won't be back-paid as OT, either, so I'd refrain from doing such for fear of complicating the submission of a supplemental timesheet to claim OT once this is all over.

If we were working LEAP sandwiches, there'd be some serious heartburn....at least at my office. I haven't seen the new 2019 LEAP tracker spreadsheet/timesheet, so if you have it email it to me because I need to get my hours down on paper......I'm guessing by the end of January I will be at 120 hours of OT + 30 hours of comp-time just for January alone.

[Drang]

{Cher} hasn't been a relevant celebrity for the majority of my natural life

That was actually part of my point, I guess I should give up attempts at subtlety.:rolleyes:

My friend tells me that they certified their time sheets last week, because, why wouldn't you? Well, because someone was supposed to tell you not to. She said there were all kinds of dire predictions, and I pointed out that the ones making the predictions were the ones who probably should have made sure that they knew not to, so don't sweat it. (Easy for me to say...)

[JDD]

"Prudent OT" or whatever the language was. Regular CS/FS are being told to claim comp-time, but the guidance is that special agents aren't allowed to use comp-time in lieu of for anything but travel, and that it must instead be claimed as LEAP. However the way it was written doesn't preclude the use of OT at management's discretion, though.

Basically, anything my office does is still paid OT (via WSP funding), especially since there's various carve-outs for operations in support of who we're working for....I imagine it might differ for your assignment. Anything that is claimed as LEAP won't be back-paid as OT, either, so I'd refrain from doing such for fear of complicating the submission of a supplemental timesheet to claim OT once this is all over.

If we were working LEAP sandwiches, there'd be some serious heartburn....at least at my office. I haven't seen the new 2019 LEAP tracker spreadsheet/timesheet, so if you have it email it to me because I need to get my hours down on paper......I'm guessing by the end of January I will be at 120 hours of OT + 30 hours of comp-time just for January alone.


This also sticks in my craw. We have had a pretty substantial disruption to operations, particularly travel and a number of other extremely high priority programs. The idea that there are carve outs for some things, especially with where I am, and the fact that we are 50% under strength pisses me off (the shutdown is also delaying the arrival of any new staff). Combine that with what will happen here when the transferable funding that we have been instructed to use with extreme judiciousness runs out, and it becomes downright rage inducing.

2019 leap year does not start for a few more months, so no new spreadsheet just yet.

[RJ]

I am not in .gov, but all my current projects (and most of my company's annual $4B revenue) is with .gov, mostly DoD.

So far, I've not seen any impact from what I do (I'm a middle level engineering Cat-Herder), which ranges anywhere from interacting with local .gov and .mil supporting my Prime Contractor to getting parts to getting access to .gov facilities both CONUS and OCONUS.

[TGS]

This also sticks in my craw.

Oh, stand by then....message enroute.

[ranger]

I am not in .gov, but all my current projects (and most of my company's annual $4B revenue) is with .gov, mostly DoD.

So far, I've not seen any impact from what I do (I'm a middle level engineering Cat-Herder), which ranges anywhere from interacting with local .gov and .mil supporting my Prime Contractor to getting parts to getting access to .gov facilities both CONUS and OCONUS.

Based on my previous .MIL/.GOV experience, you are fine unless your company's contract comes up for renewal during a shutdown.

[modrecoil]

My agency is fully funded. Unlike the last shutdown when non-essential employees didn't work, but got paid later anyway. Contractors got completely screwed. Also, the 15% of my team I tagged as "essential" felt like they missed out on an unscheduled paid vacation.

[Drang]

I am not in .gov, but all my current projects (and most of my company's annual $4B revenue) is with .gov, mostly DoD.

So far, I've not seen any impact from what I do (I'm a middle level engineering Cat-Herder), which ranges anywhere from interacting with local .gov and .mil supporting my Prime Contractor to getting parts to getting access to .gov facilities both CONUS and OCONUS.

DOD is funded, IIRC that was the first budget bill passed.

[DMF13]

My understanding is that the majority of Federal civilian employees are Democrats, and I'm sure they'll be bringing heat on Democratic legislators.What data backs up that understanding?

[farscott]

I do not work for fed.gov, but I am supposed to be starting some contract work for a company who does work for fed.gov -- if that makes sense.

The team for which I am supposed to work is on an Army installation, and the team is essentially locked out of the installation until the shutdown ends. I have had a few phone calls from the fed.gov customer, and the customer called me from home as he is "non-essential" -- but still working.

So I cannot work on the contract. And if I could work, I could not get my hours approved or get an invoice approved. Financially it is not big deal as I have other customers and I learned long ago to save for lean times (and for customers who ignore pay terms and pay late), but the pay rate for this contract is pretty high. Since I want to plow a whole bunch of money into the business in 2019, the contract award was well-timed. So my expansion plans may be delayed.

Of course, the final due date will not slip, so my carefully crafted schedule for getting what needs to be done done on time just when into the dumpster.

I feel for the young, new fed.gov employees who have had almost no time to build a rainy day fund as the flood happened before construction of the fund could start. I am less inclined to care for those who have decades of service and know this is a possibility.

[peterb]

My federal position is funded so that's not an issue. My friends in the Coast Guard are starting to get nervous because if something doesn't change real quick they're probably not going to get paid on the 15th, and that would suck a big fat dick. Apparently CG families are getting told to have yard sales and take up driving Uber to help makes end meet.

https://www.npr.org/2019/01/11/684118233/tidal-wave-hundreds-of-coast-guard-families-show-up-to-pop-up-boston-food-pantry

In Boston this week, a pop-up food pantry opened for men and women of the Coast Guard, the only branch of the armed services working without pay.

[Tom Duffy]

My understanding is that the majority of Federal civilian employees are Democrats,

Actually, Trump was quoted as saying it, so it must be true. :mad:

[JV_]

Actually, Trump was quoted as saying it, so it must be true. :mad:

Well, his statement is not without some support.

34111

More data is here:
https://www.govexec.com/insights/government-executive-2016-presidential-poll-august-13-2015/119144/

[DMF13]

Well, his statement is not without some support.

34111

More data is here:
https://www.govexec.com/insights/government-executive-2016-presidential-poll-august-13-2015/119144/44% is NOT a majority.

Greater than half is a majority.

[revchuck38]

Actually, Trump was quoted as saying it, so it must be true. :mad:

Ewww...:)

As I noted earlier in this thread, I don’t remember where I read it. Damned sure wasn’t from him, though.

[JV_]

44% is NOT a majority.

Greater than half is a majority.

See definition #3: https://www.dictionary.com/browse/majority

[DMF13]

See definition #3: https://www.dictionary.com/browse/majorityThat third definition still means greater than 50%.

Assuming the numbers you found are correct, the "remainder" is still greater than the number of "Democrats, or "Independents leaning democrat." The "remainder," is 40% "Republican" or " Independents leaning Republican, " plus 16% "Undecided/Decline to State," which is a total of 56%.

So the "remainder" of people not in their "Democrat" category is greater than those in that category.

So your data doesn't support the claim, even using the definition you tried to "cherry pick."

[JV_]

That third definition still means greater than 50%.You and I read that differently.


even using the definition you tried to "cherry pick."If I was going to cherry pick a definition, I'll go with this one:

34115

But I do admit, "plurality" is a better fit, though I think a case can be made either way.

[Drang]

JFC, another thread gone.

[GardoneVT]

In some countries, in situations like this their legislatures &/or executive branch equivalent immediately cease operations and elections for every seat are convened. I’m beginning to see the wisdom behind this provision.

[El Cid]

https://www.npr.org/2019/01/11/684118233/tidal-wave-hundreds-of-coast-guard-families-show-up-to-pop-up-boston-food-pantry

In Boston this week, a pop-up food pantry opened for men and women of the Coast Guard, the only branch of the armed services working without pay.

That’s because they are not really military. The military (DoD) is funded right now. Even during previous shut downs only the DoD civilians went on furlough or worked without pay. Uniform members were always paid. The Coasties are a hybrid organization and are para-military. They are more LE than military and part of DHS now (formerly DOT) which is why Posse Comitatus doesn’t apply to them. Only when called up by the Navy are they a part of the DoD.

[TGS]

Update ( JDD) :

Regardless of being funded through February, apparently the most recent paycheck was our last as all of the payroll people have been furloughed, so there's nobody to process paychecks; according to rumor mill, at least....

[GuanoLoco]

She hasn't been a relevant celebrity for the majority of my natural life

You are going to have to help me out with this notion of a ‘relevant celebrity’.

[sharps54]

That’s because they are not really military. The military (DoD) is funded right now. Even during previous shut downs only the DoD civilians went on furlough or worked without pay. Uniform members were always paid. The Coasties are a hybrid organization and are para-military. They are more LE than military and part of DHS now (formerly DOT) which is why Posse Comitatus doesn’t apply to them. Only when called up by the Navy are they a part of the DoD.

My memory is probably faulty but I was active duty Army during Clinton’s presidency and I thought that during one of his shutdowns we either didn’t get a paycheck or were told we wouldn’t but it was lifted before that happened.

[El Cid]

My memory is probably faulty but I was active duty Army during Clinton’s presidency and I thought that during one of his shutdowns we either didn’t get a paycheck or were told we wouldn’t but it was lifted before that happened.

I was active duty Air Force during the Clinton shut down. I got paid as did my troops, but our civilians did not. Many being former military came in anyway and worked for free. I cannot recall if they got back pay.

[sharps54]

I was active duty Air Force during the Clinton shut down. I got paid as did my troops, but our civilians did not. Many being former military came in anyway and worked for free. I cannot recall if they got back pay.

I did some googling and found that while they threatened not to pay us the first time in 95 fell between paychecks so it didn’t come to pass.

[Totem Polar]

You are going to have to help me out with this notion of a ‘relevant celebrity’.

At this point, we have to admit that Donald Trump probably qualifies. Reagan did too. Hell, Obama probably fits the bill, considering how little political experience he had when he took the oath. Dude was primarily known for being a book author, IIRC.

Jay-z, Tay Tay, or Liam Neeson, not so much. JMO.

[Totem Polar]

At this point, we have to admit that Donald Trump probably qualifies. Reagan did too. Hell, Obama probably fits the bill, considering how little political experience he had when he took the oath. Dude was primarily known for being a book author, IIRC.

Jay-z, Tay Tay, or Liam Neeson, not so much. JMO.

I forgot Gal Gadot. Most def relevant. JMO.

[LSP552]

As a DOD civilian, I’m not. DOD is fully funded. My wife is, as she is a mission essential employee for another Fed agency. She has to work, but didn’t get paid.

I’m glad that we are not both in unfunded agencies, and that I have pretty decent pension income from the State.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

USNI (naval institute) blog post on the shut down:

https://blog.usni.org/posts/2019/01/10/special-edition-coast-guard-survival-guide-for-the-government-shutdown

[Chance]

1081291286181752835

[Cory]

I find the whole thing difficult.

I think a wall is needed. We've tried the "enhanced security" a million times and gotten zero improvement for decades. Claiming its a waste of money strikes me as untenable. Government will waste money, why not on an idea we havent tried that has done well for others and could help us economically as well as with security.

I also think people need to be paid. Right now. Forcing others to do without money is ridiculous. People are going to be seriously harmed by this if they havent been already.

I feel like Schumer and Pelosi keep saying the same thing "Trump is making this happen because he HAS to have his way!" when they are doing the same thing by not approving the funding. They make out like the wall is morally wrong, and I dont agree with that. Especially considering they have proposed it in the past. Seems they are more anti-Trump than antiwall. The act they all left for a vacation while this is unresolved also strikes me as wrong.

I feel like I'm mostly in agreement with Trump. He tends to be an ass but on this I agree with him. There is no reason this wasnt done long ago, and they seem to only oppose it because he feels it is important to the nation. I get they may think other options are better, but to think a wall is so absolutely horrendous that you allow this big an upset is stupid. If Trump caves our problem persists. If they cave a potential solution is attempted.

I don't understand the logic, and feel it's ridiculous that things have gotten to this point.

-Cory

[sharps54]

The thing I find most interesting is the break of the border patrol council from the rest of the union on this issue. I don’t see them being allowed to become a separate public union so I think there will be some reprocussions and reprisals against the leaders of that council when this is all said and done because they aren’t on board with the rest of AFGE.

[HCM]

I find the whole thing difficult.

I think a wall is needed. We've tried the "enhanced security" a million times and gotten zero improvement for decades. Claiming its a waste of money strikes me as untenable. Government will waste money, why not on an idea we havent tried that has done well for others and could help us economically as well as with security.

I also think people need to be paid. Right now. Forcing others to do without money is ridiculous. People are going to be seriously harmed by this if they havent been already.

I feel like Schumer and Pelosi keep saying the same thing "Trump is making this happen because he HAS to have his way!" when they are doing the same thing by not approving the funding. They make out like the wall is morally wrong, and I dont agree with that. Especially considering they have proposed it in the past. Seems they are more anti-Trump than antiwall. The act they all left for a vacation while this is unresolved also strikes me as wrong.

I feel like I'm mostly in agreement with Trump. He tends to be an ass but on this I agree with him. There is no reason this wasnt done long ago, and they seem to only oppose it because he feels it is important to the nation. I get they may think other options are better, but to think a wall is so absolutely horrendous that you allow this big an upset is stupid. If Trump caves our problem persists. If they cave a potential solution is attempted.

I don't understand the logic, and feel it's ridiculous that things have gotten to this point.

-Cory

Border security is needed. A wall is a waste of money.

Walls and fencing are only effective in built up areas (towns cities etc) even then it is a speed bump and only as good as the response by the force patrolling it.

Specific to TX, which is a significant paortion of the border, a wall will not do anything the River doesn’t already do.

We have no problem catching people. I can’t remember the last time we have encountered an illegal alien who entered within the last 10 years and had not 1) entered legally with a border crossing card and over stayed or 2) had not been caught by USBP and either released with a court date or voluntarily returned to Mexico to try again.

If you want border security you need to end catch and release and have real and immediate consequences for those caught entering illegally or making fraudulent claims and you need to beef up the ports of entry and interior checkpoints to inspect a higher percentage of cargo traffic which is how most narcotics enter.

If Trump was serious about building a wall he should have pushed it when he had both houses of Congress. Doing so now is grandstanding at best and incredibly stupid at worst.

[HCM]

The problem is anything that actually ends catch and release like the attempt at 100% prosecution of illegal entry which got spun into “separating families” is going to:

A) Be expensive, likely more expensive than the sham wall
B) Be the target of a massive left wing spin campaign
C) Be the target of significant SJW / “Hawaii Judge” litigation which can / will be dragged out beyond 2024.

[Cory]

Border security is needed. A wall is a waste of money.

Walls and fencing are only effective in built up areas (towns cities etc) even then it is a speed bump and only as good as the response by the force patrolling it.

Specific to TX, which is a significant paortion of the border, a wall will not do anything the River doesn’t already do.

We have no problem catching people. I can’t remember the last time we have encountered an illegal alien who entered within the last 10 years and had not 1) entered legally with a border crossing card and over stayed or 2) had not been caught by USBP and either released with a court date or voluntarily returned to Mexico to try again.

If you want border security you need to end catch and release and have real and immediate consequences for those caught entering illegally or making fraudulent claims and you need to beef up the ports of entry and interior checkpoints to inspect a higher percentage of cargo traffic which is how most narcotics enter.

If Trump was serious about building a wall he should have pushed it when he had both houses of Congress. Doing so now is grandstanding at best and incredibly stupid at worst.

I dont disagree with most of what you've said. I think we need to have stricter punishment besides "Sorry, try again."

But preventing them from ever entering illegally would prevent them from being released by USBP wouldn't it? It would also prevent the cost of dealing with detention and expulsion I would think. You live and work there, so genuine question: Why will a wall not help outside of cities? Isn't an additional speed bump going to help BP get the job done better or not need to do the job as frequent?

I'm admittedly not an expert. And Trump isn't my idea of an ideal leader. But at this point a new tactic with regards to border security is worth the money to try. Thats just my opinion, others are welcome to theirs, and I'm open to having my mind changed. I don't see all the blame for this laying soley at Trumps feet.

-Cory

[HCM]

I dont disagree with most of what you've said. I think we need to have stricter punishment besides "Sorry, try again."

But preventing them from ever entering illegally would prevent them from being released by USBP wouldn't it? It would also prevent the cost of dealing with detention and expulsion I would think. You live and work there, so genuine question: Why will a wall not help outside of cities? Isn't an additional speed bump going to help BP get the job done better or not need to do the job as frequent?

I'm admittedly not an expert. And Trump isn't my idea of an ideal leader. But at this point a new tactic with regards to border security is worth the money to try. Thats just my opinion, others are welcome to theirs, and I'm open to having my mind changed. I don't see all the blame for this laying soley at Trumps feet.

-Cory

Re: deterrence - Walls don’t work that way, they don’t prevent people from entering, that is part of the snake oil / lie behind Trumps sham wall.

Walls don’t stop or preclude anything. They just slow them down and provide more reaction time to responding forces. This is why they are good in built up areas. They give some extra time for response before the intruders are able to blend into the urban mix.

The areas we already have walls/ fencing people are not deterred, they just go over, under and in some cases through the barriers. You still have to arrest them, detain them and deal with them. This is where it all falls apart.

Outside cities and towns. You are relying on sensors, cameras etc. with or without a wall. You are not going to be able to respond before someone gets over /under/through a wall- you are gonna rely on defense in depth, track them and arrest them just like we are already doing quite successfully now.

Trump didn’t create the border problems but the bread and circuses of the Sham wall are taking attention and funding from real soloutions.

From a political marketing /messaging POV “The Wall” is genius. In terms of border security it is smoke and mirrors.

I’d be all for a shut down that actually did something real but the trump wall is just wasteful BS.

[Cory]

Re: deterrence - Walls don’t work that way, they don’t prevent people from entering, that is part of the snake oil / lie behind Trumps sham wall.

Walls don’t stop or preclude anything. They just slow them down and provide more reaction time to responding forces. This is why they are good in built up areas. They give some extra time for response before the intruders are able to blend into the urban mix.

The areas we already have walls/ fencing people are not deterred, they just go over, under and in some cases through the barriers. You still have to arrest them, detain them and deal with them. This is where it all falls apart.

Outside cities and towns. You are relying on sensors, cameras etc. with or without a wall. You are not going to be able to respond before someone gets over /under/through a wall- you are gonna rely on defense in depth, track them and arrest them just like we are already doing quite successfully now.

Trump didn’t create the border problems but the bread and circuses of the Sham wall are taking attention and funding from real soloutions.

From a political marketing /messaging POV “The Wall” is genius. In terms of border security it is smoke and mirrors.

I’d be all for a shut down that actually did something real but the trump wall is just wasteful BS.

Interesting take on it. Thanks for clarifying.

-Cory

[Gadfly]

Fed. Forced to work, but not getting paid.

As a side note, we got funded for new furniture earlier in the year. So we scheduled our cubicle instal between the Christmas and New Year time, assuming most folks would be on leave anyway. Well, furlough hits and we are required to go in. Also, the contractor has his schedule to follow.

This was the office a week ago.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190113/5d37cf515ba3db9a457db8e7d8651094.jpg

So we have no desks, not chairs, no computers, no phones.... but we are supposed to report to the office. [emoji1745]*[emoji3603][emoji1745]*[emoji3603][emoji1745]*[emoji3603]

We at least have the new cube shells in now.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190113/ed67dad6db8b9715199541d83f609c3a.jpg

By next Friday, the cubes should be built. I figure another week to get all the phone lines, network cable, and power run. About the time we are up and running, maybe... MAYBE... the stupid furlough will be over and I can get paid.

I am good for missing one check. Two checks will be painful, but doable. Three checks will be a real problem...

Both parties are grandstanding and need to fix this shit. Word is, a trade was floated of DACA relief in exchange for a wall. Dems said no. I would like to see ALL senators and congressmen confined to their respective chambers from 8 to 5, 7 days a week, until they find a fix. Why do they get to walk away from the table? FIX YOUR SHIT...




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[GuanoLoco]

ONE person (Individual #1?) went back on his word to sign the funding bill and created this situation after being ‘triggered’ by feedback from a couple of far right wing idiots (Coulter, Limbaugh). The Sham-Wall is no more than that - populist nonsense that purports to solve a problem. Like all simple solutions to complex problems, it simply doesn’t work, and $5B is nowhere close to what the actual costs would be.

ONE person said he would be proud to own the shutdown - and went back on his word.

ONE person could stop playing the ass and solve this problem with a stroke of the pen.

With 2/3 vote, the House and Senate could pass a VETO-proof bill.

If POTUS cannot keep the government running, POTUS should be over-ridden and subsequently removed.

If Congress cannot keep POTUS in check and keep the government running, ALL incumbents should be removed.

It’s about that simple.

[Bucky]

What confuses me is, during the government shutdown under Obama, it was Congress who was “at fault” for the shut down. Now it’s the president at fault. How does that work?

[sharps54]

Fed. Forced to work, but not getting paid.

As a side note, we got funded for new furniture earlier in the year. So we scheduled our cubicle instal between the Christmas and New Year time, assuming most folks would be on leave anyway. Well, furlough hits and we are required to go in. Also, the contractor has his schedule to follow.

This was the office a week ago.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190113/5d37cf515ba3db9a457db8e7d8651094.jpg

So we have no desks, not chairs, no computers, no phones.... but we are supposed to report to the office. [emoji1745]*[emoji3603][emoji1745]*[emoji3603][emoji1745]*[emoji3603]

We at least have the new cube shells in now.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190113/ed67dad6db8b9715199541d83f609c3a.jpg

By next Friday, the cubes should be built. I figure another week to get all the phone lines, network cable, and power run. About the time we are up and running, maybe... MAYBE... the stupid furlough will be over and I can get paid.

I am good for missing one check. Two checks will be painful, but doable. Three checks will be a real problem...

Both parties are grandstanding and need to fix this shit. Word is, a trade was floated of DACA relief in exchange for a wall. Dems said no. I would like to see ALL senators and congressmen confined to their respective chambers from 8 to 5, 7 days a week, until they find a fix. Why do they get to walk away from the table? FIX YOUR SHIT...




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

When we did a tour of the courthouse in Colonial Williamsburg 20 years ago the tour guide said if the jury couldn’t agree to a verdict they would lock them in until they did. I’d like to see that same idea applied here. Actually that is a feel good measure, one advantage of letting them leave is their constituents can give them an earful while they are home.

[GuanoLoco]

What confuses me is, during the government shutdown under Obama, it was Congress who was “at fault” for the shut down. Now it’s the president at fault. How does that work?

Trump made a decision to not sign the funding bill he previously agreeed to sign and very clearly stated, on camera, that he would own the shutdown. He even called it the “Trump Shutdown”.

Other than him changing his spin every day and blaming others for the consequences of his decision and his inability to ‘make a deal’, where’s the confusion?

[Bucky]

Trump made a decision to not sign the funding bill he previously agreeed to sign and very clearly stated, on camera, that he would own the shutdown. He even called it the “Trump Shutdown”.

Other than him changing his spin every day and blaming others for the consequences of his decision and his inability to ‘make a deal’, where’s the confusion?

When Obama wouldn’t sign the funding bill, it was congresses fault.

[TCB]

Walls work pretty good...not getting paid kind of sucks. Mexico was just handed an amount of U.S. cash nearly equal to the amount being fought over for “The Wall” so they can do (stuff) and no one even blinked an eye, we will see no return on that investment (IMHO). The river in TX does nothing to stop people crossing the international border and does not channelize the traffic to areas where it can be effectively worked with boots on the ground assisted by various technologies and air assets.

BTW: The USBP is currently (well maybe not during the shutdown) hiring (were approximately 7,000 Agents short of where we are supposed to be and approximately 2,000 below Congressionaly mandated staffing levels).

[Screwball]

So... I should look for a rich woman, or one that makes decent money, considering I’m going into CBP. Noted. [emoji106]

[GuanoLoco]

When Obama wouldn’t sign the funding bill, it was congresses fault.

Irrelevant to the current situation. You can do better than that.

[GardoneVT]

“The Wall” and merits thereof aren’t the point, at all.

Sure it’s the topic of note , but the big problem isn’t the wall or Trump or Congress or the Ds or the Rs. It’s the fact our elected representatives as a group have lost sight of what their jobs are. This isn’t Trumps fault or Bush’s fault or Obama’s fault or Pelosi’s fault; it’s the whole enchilada folks.

If these folks possessed a shred of responsibility to their electorate, they’d have hashed this out last year. As in before the fiscal year ended. Far as I am concerned the entire executive and legislative branch is responsible for this mess.

[PNWTO]

At the risk of brevity and a few beers:

My (land management agency) office is not funded and, thanks to vacation, I have not been in the office for about a month.

We are missing inter-agency planning meetings and collaboration meetings with private/corportate partners; if we can't get traction on some of these projects they will get dropped to FY20. I have people and small businesses waiting on me to get back to the office; some individual's have their sole source of income waiting on approval from my shop. We are also supposed to be hiring firefighters... which is a wholly different post in its own right.

If you are an outdoorsman and/or enjoy your public lands getting managed and maintained, I would encourage you to write your representatives and encourage them to end this temper tantrum.

[TGS]

If these folks possessed a shred of responsibility to their electorate, they’d have hashed this out last year. As in before the fiscal year ended. Far as I am concerned the entire executive and legislative branch is responsible for this mess.

Oh, well, then accept my apologies. I'm sorry for whatever I and the multitude of executive branch employees on this website did to cause this event.

[Bucky]

Irrelevant to the current situation. You can do better than that.

Completely relevant to my initial post that you quoted. In fact, it’s the only point I made in that post. Therefore, your points are irrelevant to the post you quoted.

I’m not saying your points are irrelevant in general, despite disagreeing with you.

[John Hearne]

Just saw this on FB, posted by a friend and trainer/mentor who's a no-shit BTDT DoD guy. Anyone else see this in their life yet? unacceptable...

"You can’t make this up. Just notified after two missed checks as a Fed I lose my dental and vision. And after three I lose my retirement and will be billed for the lack of payments owed. If I don’t pay them it will become taxable income. Hahahaha! You couldn’t make this shit more funny if it was a Benny Hill skit..."

Just curious as if to it's really the total goat rope it looks like from the outside.

That is just flat out wrong regarding insurance. Both my health and dental providers have on their splash page, that coverage will continue uninterrupted.....

[jetfire]

That’s because they are not really military. The military (DoD) is funded right now. Even during previous shut downs only the DoD civilians went on furlough or worked without pay. Uniform members were always paid. The Coasties are a hybrid organization and are para-military. They are more LE than military and part of DHS now (formerly DOT) which is why Posse Comitatus doesn’t apply to them. Only when called up by the Navy are they a part of the DoD.

I am only contributing to this thread to correct this statement which is a common misunderstanding.

The Coast Guard is always a branch of the military.

10 U.S. Code § 101 - Definitions
(4)The term “armed forces” means the Army, Navy, Air Force, Marine Corps, and Coast Guard.

That's direct from US Code and is the definition of "armed forces" or in common parlance "the military." They are the only branch of the military that does not fall under the operational control of the DoD, which doesn't affect their status as a branch of the Armed Forces. Members of the Coast Guard are entitled to the same pay rates and benefits as members of the DoD branches of the military.


The reason they're not getting funded right now is because as correctly stated, they're part of Homeland and not the DoD, and Homeland's funding was one of the major bones of contention in the appropriation that everyone was fighting over. Regardless, to say they're "not really" military or "para-military" is just fucking dumb.

[GardoneVT]

Oh, well, then accept my apologies. I'm sorry for whatever I and the multitude of executive branch employees on this website did to cause this event.

The Executive Branch is headed by two people; ergo the use of the plural. I was not referencing the support staff, as they actually do their jobs.

[El Cid]

I am only contributing to this thread to correct this statement which is a common misunderstanding.

The Coast Guard is always a branch of the military.


That's direct from US Code and is the definition of "armed forces" or in common parlance "the military." They are the only branch of the military that does not fall under the operational control of the DoD, which doesn't affect their status as a branch of the Armed Forces. Members of the Coast Guard are entitled to the same pay rates and benefits as members of the DoD branches of the military.


The reason they're not getting funded right now is because as correctly stated, they're part of Homeland and not the DoD, and Homeland's funding was one of the major bones of contention in the appropriation that everyone was fighting over. Regardless, to say they're "not really" military or "para-military" is just fucking dumb.

I hate that you got so butt-hurt so easily. Looking at the definition you cited, it was drafted in 2006 and implemented in 2012, which was well after I got out of the military. But like so many things in our country, the definitions change over time. It’s similar to the argument we have here on P-F and other places about whether or not civilian cops are civilians.

The problem is the Coast Guard is a hybrid organization no matter how you look at it. We have laws that prohibit the military from enforcing civilian laws against our own citizens. The USCG enforces laws against Americans daily. They are part military and part law enforcement. They are not subject to Posse Comitatus, but they do get the protections the DoD has under the Soldiers & Sailors Relief act. They are simply not the same as our traditional military services.

I went to high school with a kid whose dad was a Coastie. He used to argue that they were absent from the recruiting commercials on TV because they had a smaller budget and couldn’t afford it. I tried to explain that the DoD paid for the commercials and they were (at that time) DOT. He didn’t believe me. He also swore his dad told him the Coast Guard flew F-16’s… Some people just can’t handle calling something what it is. Today I’d refer to this kid as a precious snowflake.

The bottom line is the Coast Guard is a great organization. They are extremely important and useful. I have friends and family who have been or are now Coasties. For much of my Air Force career I worked hand in hand with the various District RCC’s for the Coast Guard. Our National SAR School is on their facility in Yorktown. My comment was in no way intended to be a slight. You just read it that way because you applied your personal hurt when you read it. But to call me “fucking dumb” just shows I’m debating with a person who has the maturity of a 13 year old. Best of luck to you.

[jetfire]

I hate that you got so butt-hurt so easily.
…
But to call me “fucking dumb” just shows I’m debating with a person who has the maturity of a 13 year old. Best of luck to you.

I didn't call you fucking dumb. I said that your statement was fucking dumb. But yeah, I'm the one who's butthurt easily. It annoys me when people who should know better say shit that is factually incorrect and then try to walk it back when they get called out on it. The Coast Guard was part of the Armed Forces when I joined up in 2000 back when they were in the DOT.

They're still part of the Armed Forces 19 years later when I'm in the DoD. Weird.

[TGS]

I didn't call you fucking dumb. I said that your statement was fucking dumb. But yeah, I'm the one who's butthurt easily. It annoys me when people who should know better say shit that is factually incorrect and then try to walk it back when they get called out on it. The Coast Guard was part of the Armed Forces when I joined up in 2000 back when they were in the DOT.

They're still part of the Armed Forces 19 years later when I'm in the DoD. Weird.

FWIW, I didn’t think you came off as hutthurt.

And yes, the USCG is part of the armed forces, as while their responsibilities are delineated in Title 14, their status as armed forces is enumerated in Title 10. I think Title 10 was established prior to 2006.

[TGS]

The Executive Branch is headed by two people; ergo the use of the plural. I was not referencing the support staff, as they actually do their jobs.

Weak sauce backpedaling, brah.

Read what you wrote. “The entire executive branch”. That’s not a great way to reference the two people heading the executive.

[GardoneVT]

Weak sauce backpedaling, brah.

Read what you wrote. “The entire executive branch”. That’s not a great way to reference the two people heading the executive.

How about you go Amazon prime some context and try again “brah”.
I’ll show myself out of this thread.