SLED: Gun instructor arrested after teaching four-hour class

[Wendell]

COLUMBIA, SC (WIS) - Being a concealed weapons permit instructor takes some commitment. You need to keep current certification through the State Law Enforcement Division and the National Rifle Association.
<http://lexington.wistv.com/news/crime/51671-sled-gun-instructor-arrested-after-teaching-four-hour-class>


SLED: Gun instructor arrested after teaching four-hour class


Submitted by Tenessa Jennings (http://lexington.wistv.com/profile/43859/tenessa-jennings), Community Web Producer

Wednesday, March 7th, 2012, 12:56pm

COLUMBIA, SC (WIS) - Being a concealed weapons permit instructor takes some commitment. You need to keep current certification through the State Law Enforcement Division and the National Rifle Association.
Christopher Phillips is a captain with the Kershaw County Sheriff's Office. In his spare time, he teaches concealed weapons permit classes.
"I take my job very seriously. This is not a program that you can abuse," Phillips said.
But, according to SLED, one instructor did abuse his role. Last month, Roland Ray Hill taught a CWP class to nine students. Now he's accused of illegal instruction.
"We don't need to be exchanging money just for a certificate. You need to teach the class, you need to explain to the people taking the class what we are doing this," Phillips said.
The course is supposed to be eight hours. SLED says Hill's class was only four hours.
An undercover SLED agent attended Hill's class in February after receiving complaints about the class.
"Four hours is not enough time to even cut the surface with how to operate a firearm safely, where to store it safely, and how to operate the gun," Phillips said.
Phillips has been a licensed instructor for 3 years. He says most people in the classes have never held a gun, let alone owned one. He takes pride in teaching and can't understand why others don't.
"It's upsetting because it puts a ding on the entire CWP program, and that's not what the entire CWP program is all about," Phillips said.
Phillips says there are about 2,500 licensed instructors in the state. This is the second time this year an instructor has been arrested.
"Unfortunately there's a bad apple everywhere you go in every profession, but the CWP program works," Phillips said.
Hill was booked at the Lexington County Detention Center on March 5 and released later that day after he posted a $5,000 bond.
The students in Hill's class, who only went through 4 hours of training, could also face perjury charges if they submit their permit application to SLED indicating they took an 8-hour class.





<http://lexington.wistv.com/news/crime/51671-sled-gun-instructor-arrested-after-teaching-four-hour-class>

[derekb]

"Four hours is not enough time to even cut the surface with how to operate a firearm safely, where to store it safely, and how to operate the gun,"

I can't help but think it's easy enough to argue the same for an 8 hour class.

[JeffJ]

I can't help but think it's easy enough to argue the same for an 8 hour class.

I agree with you, but he doesn't get to decide to revamp the program on his own - those students depend on a certified instructor to help them meet the state requirements.

Sickening that the students are now open to a perjury charge.

[Al T.]

open to a perjury charge.

Only if they submit their application certifying that they have attended the 8 hour class.

[JeffJ]

Only if they submit their application certifying that they have attended the 8 hour class.

True - just really sucks to pay for the class by a state licensed instructor and then find out that the class you took was a complete waste of time and money

[Tamara]

Training requirements are a joke; this is a persuasive argument for ditching them altogether.

Tennessee had a mandatory 8-hour class and recommended four hours in the classroom and then four hours on the range. The written test was open-book and the course of fire could be passed by anybody who could stand flat-footed, aim at the ground, and hit it. We had a blind guy pass, and when I say "blind", I don't mean "couldn't see so hot without his glasses", I mean dog-and-cane blind.

No training is required here in Indiana, and $150 gets you a lifetime permit that allows you, if you are that retarded, to go get drunk in a bar while carrying a dozen handguns, and I don't see where it's led to massive societal breakdown.

[HeadHunter]

Training requirements are a joke; this is a persuasive argument for ditching them altogether.

We have no training requirement here in Georgia and plenty of goobers. The current licensing system has been in place since 1976 and there are approximately 400,000 people with Weapons Carry Licenses in the state. Incidents of stupidity among WCL holders are practically unknown, in fact, I can't cite one and I look for them.

[Tamara]

We have no training requirement here in Georgia and plenty of goobers. The current licensing system has been in place since 1976 and there are approximately 400,000 people with Weapons Carry Licenses in the state. Incidents of stupidity among WCL holders are practically unknown, in fact, I can't cite one and I look for them.

I'm all about the Constitutional Carry myself, but as a compromise, I'd be willing to see CCW included as an endorsement on state Driver's Licenses or photo ID's. Rather than a separate trip to the cop shop, you should just be able to fork over an extra $25 or whatever at the DMV and have it done there.

(Does Georgia still do CCW permits on the photocopier at the courthouse? I loved those, especially when they were cut crooked along the dotted line. :D )

[jmjames]

As someone who took one of Ray's CWP classes recently (my CWP was issued 2/29 10 days AFTER the agent attended the class), and talked to the person at SLED handling this case, I have the following information:

FROM SLED:

* The only CWP folks who are going to be affected are those who took Ray's 2/19 class (the one that the SLED agent attended); they will NOT be receiving their CWPs, but will NOT be brought up on any charges.

* Folks who received a CWP from Ray's classes are being sent a letter. This letter will explain in great detail the exact requirements of the class. Anyone who feels that their class did not meet the requirements should take a CWP class from another instructor and file the paperwork with SLED, along with a copy of the letter from SLED. Anyone retaking the course will not have to pay a second fee to SLED for the CWP application/background check/etc., but they will, of course, need to pay for the CWP course itself.

FROM MY EXPERIENCE TAKING RAY'S CLASS:

* Everyone in my class passed the written test AND the range test, despite the fact that many people in the class had never touched a gun before in their lives.

* My class was split into two halves, 4 hours of instruction and 4 hours at the range. The class time was a bit under 4 hours, including the time to take the test, there were a could of short breaks as well. I am honestly not sure what else would have been covered in the course work, since we went over a TON of stuff that wasn't even on the written test, like malfunction drills. We also watched and discussed a number of videos that I felt were quite useful and informative, despite them not having any content that the test covered. One that I felt was particularly useful was security camera footage of a hotel robbery incident where the clerk shot the robber; Ray led us through an analysis of the video and what each person in the video did right and what each person did wrong.

* The range portion of the class may have gone up to a full 4 hours, but Ray was efficient. We hit the range in waves, with experienced shooters who didn't need hands-on going first, and the less-experienced shooters who needed hands-on instruction going last. There were a number of other helpers to assist with the paperwork, instruct people, etc. which also made it go faster. If Ray did this 100% by himself with no help, and forced everyone to sit in the room twiddling their thumbs while others were on the range, it probably would have taken four hours.

* A few weeks after I did mine, my wife also took one of Ray's CWP classes; it was just under 8 hours, and she learned a LOT. She quotes his class constantly, to the point where it is annoying. She is a very inexperienced shooter, and I felt that she learned more about firearms in her CWP class than she did in our few range trips together.

* During both my class and my wife's class, Ray mentioned on a number of occasions that he knows SLED sends agents to the classes, that it is critical to follow the rules of teaching it, etc.

Now, here are some of my OPINIONS and CONCLUSIONS:

* It is my firm belief that Ray saw no harm in letting people out of the class early if they completed all of the required material. Frankly, I agree with him. If SLED wants instructors to somehow fill 8 hours, they need to provide 8 hours of material. The only way Ray could have stretched the class out farther was to do a ton of hands-on at the range or go in-depth into in-home Castle Doctrine or case law, which would have been confusing for many.

* The tests (both written and range) were wholly insufficient to test competency in my personal opinion. If the goal is to ensure that CWP holders are responsible gun owners/shooters, will make the right decisions under the stress of an out of the home incident, etc., neither test comes even close to doing the job.

* The class instruction that my wife and myself received were more than adequate to provide a "book knowledge" of basic gun handling safety (lots of emphasis on The Four Rules) and SC gun law for concealed carry.

* In the last week, SLED arrested another CWP instructor on the same charge; that other instructor was giving the answers to the written test and doing the course in 45 minutes. It is my firm belief that Ray taught his class in good faith, while this other instructor did not.

And three last bits that I feel are very important:

1) Ray recently retired from law enforcement. As a result, there are a number of cases pending where his testimony is critical (he was undercover drug enforcement for a long time). Depending on how this works out, a number of hard core drug dealers who are looking at "life with no possibility of parole"... third strikers... will WALK because Ray's testimony won't be allowed or will be tainted. I am NOT saying that SLED should pick and choose what laws get enforced, not in the slightest. But our criminal justice system makes "for the greater good" decisions all the time. The idea that some of these folks could be returned to the streets over this... that bothers me.

2) Before Ray opened his range, shooting options in the area were VERY limited. There was one indoor range in the area, with extraordinarily bad ventilation, and they treated many people very badly due to their "only game in town" status. The handful of local gun shops typically had bad prices and worse service. When Defender's opened (Ray's range), it provided the existing businesses with real competition, and forced them to make changes. Despite years of complaints about the ventilation issues, the other range didn't bother to upgrade the ventilation until Defender's opened and one of its main selling points was better ventilation. When Defender's started to sell guns, it forced the other LGS's to make serious change. The "only game in town" shop has started treating people better. Other stores have dropped their prices. Defender's out priced the local competition and most online by a mile. While the people at Defender's aren't super knowledgeable in all areas they are definitely a cut above the typical "local gun shop" in knowledge. I think the only Judge I saw them have for sale was a trade-in. If Defender's is forced to close or lose their FFL over this, I feel that it would be a direct blow to the local shooting community.

3) Ray spent quite a good bit of time doing undercover vice work here in Lexington County. While that may not be as glamorous as it is in the big cities, out here there are PILES of meth labs, drug depots, etc. That is hard, dangerous work and anyone doing it has a strong commitment to the safety of the community. I've known Ray as a customer of his range, and had a lot of talks with him for nearly a year now. He is a straight shooter as far as I can tell. He's not all about money, he's all about personal relationships. For example, he took a rifle of mine to gun shows to sell, despite it eating up a huge amount of table space and weighing a ton with all of the accessories, and took it to multiple gun shows. When it *did* sell, he absolutely refused any payment for it, he did it as a simple favor. When my wife bought a used pistol from him, he took a lot of money off the price because it was "used" (less than one box of ammo through it) and even more off the price because the rear sight was out of alignment; when I fixed the rear sight with a few gentle taps of my punch & hammer, I had to work hard to get him to take back the discount he gave me for the sight issue. In fact, the pistol was bought new from him, and when the customer complained about the sights being off, he took it back for 100% credit despite the "no refunds, no returns" policy (she didn't want to mess with trying to get it fixed). I was in the store when this happened and he was beyond courteous and bend over backwards to help her, despite having zero obligations to lift a finger to help her. While people of good character violate rules and laws all the time, and while the law is the law and doesn't make exceptions... if an exception *could* be made, I would want it to be for Ray.

J.Ja

[JConn]

If all the students passed the tests without help/answers then why do they need four more hours of sitting in a classroom. Either reduce the time requirement or make the tests harder. This just strikes me as another example of ridiculous government bureaucracy striking down anyone who doesn't follow their rules exactly. Also nber of students in the class could have a huge bearing on time needed to teach it, particularly the range portion.