pistol-training.com 2011 Endurance Test Gun

[ToddG]

... will be announced at pistol-training.com (http://pistol-training.com) tomorrow at 10:13am EST.

:cool:

[Frank D.]

you got me again...you bastard.
:D

[Kyle Reese]

Waiting with breathless anticipation.......:cool:

[John Ralston]

I think 10:14 would be a better time...

[ToddG]

Waiting with breathless anticipation.......:cool:

You already know, you goober. :cool:



I think 10:14 would be a better time...

And so do you!

[nar472]

Cant wait...:D

[dookie1481]

I'm feeling kinda left out here :p

[VolGrad]

I think I know too. I listened to chatter during breaks and took note of things you said given I knew you were close to announcing the 2011 gun.

[MTechnik]

you got me again...you bastard.
:D

you're not the only one.

[Savage Hands]

I need two more hands so I can give this 4 thumbs down haha :cool:

[LittleLebowski]

Woohoo HiPoint!

[Frank D.]

you're not the only one.

It's like the opposite of waking up on Sat. morning thinking you have school.

[TCinVA]

I, for one, was surprised to hear that H&K is bringing the VP-70 back. I'm also convinced your decision to ankle carry it will hinder your draw speed somewhat...but I suppose time will tell.

[ToddG]

I, for one, was surprised to hear that H&K is bringing the VP-70 back. I'm also convinced your decision to ankle carry it will hinder your draw speed somewhat...but I suppose time will tell.

The real trouble is finding split-leg pants that fit the stock:

http://www.dentrinity.com/NelsonChen/Collection/pistol/VP70/VP70s.jpg
(image by Nelson Chen)

[orionz06]

Woohoo HiPoint!

I am getting one tonight. Heading to the engraver tomorrow to get the PTC logo on it! Can't wait.

[David]

http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg10/imdavid/5b8fa2ba.jpg

[turbolag23]

how'd you pick 10:13am?

[David]

how'd you pick 10:13am?

I'd assume 10-code. Though I should say I haven't a clue about the codes but I only assume it meant something wonderfully marvelous and spectacular. Otherwise it just makes no sense.

[ToddG]

Ironically, I just got off the phone with someone asking me that same question.

answer (http://home.comcast.net/~injoke/xf1013.html)

(the Ten Code thing would have sounded much, much better but it wouldn't have been true)

[jslaker]

Ironically, I just got off the phone with someone asking me that same question.

answer (http://home.comcast.net/~injoke/xf1013.html)

(the Ten Code thing would have sounded much, much better but it wouldn't have been true)

X-Files, huh?

http://www.imfdb.org/index.php/X_Files,_The

:D

[Kyle Reese]

http://caracal-arms.info/caracal-pistol/bv000003.jpg

:cool:

J/K

[LOKNLOD]

I think 10:14 would be a better time...

Todd's gonna have to work on his gangsta strut if he wants to AIWB with one of these. (http://www.usmcweapons.com/articles/M1014/M1014NF.htm)

I do vaguely recall a statement that he might get one this year in one of the threads over at FT&T though...

[ToddG]

I wish! Yeah Todd, so when are you getting those shotguns?

Sometime after I get my prototypes...
(inside joke between Tom & me)

[P30shtr]

How bout you bump it up to midnight? Then it'll still be 3/11, just a couple hours early;)

[Steven C.]

how'd you pick 10:13am?

10 = 10mm = .40 cal
13 = magazine capacity of .40 cal P30

Crazy?

[YVK]

Actually, no, it is quite logical, although I thought Todd wanted to stick with 9 mm for next run due to wear and tear from his 45 test.

[Steven C.]

Well...I was clearly WAAAYYYYYY off.

Independent Gen 4 Glock 17 test.

Interested to see how it compares to the Gen 3, given the reports of problems out there.

-SC

[turbolag23]

sweet this should be interesting with all the negative hype surrounding gen4

[gtmtnbiker98]

I feel a disturbance over on GT over this, especially if the issues "haven't" been resolved. This one will be interesting.

[MTechnik]

Will this gun also get a gazillion dry fires to go with the live fires?

[Pistol Shooter]

This should be a very interesting test. :)

When does it begin Todd?

[LittleLebowski]

I need two more hands so I can give this 4 thumbs down haha :cool:

OK, that rocked.

[orionz06]

I don't think CZ forum lurkers got over Zed is not your friend (http://pistol-training.com/archives/3218) yet.

This will be very interesting.

[turbolag23]

When does it begin Todd?

"Look for the first “Gen4 Friday” report on 18-March."

[steve]

Does this Gen417 have the counter-bore or non-counter bore slide?

[TCinVA]

I feel a disturbance over on GT over this, especially if the issues "haven't" been resolved. This one will be interesting.

If the weapon encounters problems I suspect that the wailing and gnashing of teeth will be epic. In fact, I'm even toying with the idea of starting a thread in the staff forum that creates a bingo game based on negative comments that will be made about Todd's independence, integrity, and professionalism because people are upset that their favorite brand didn't come out looking awesome.

One of the insufferable features of many firearms forums is that brand names are treated with roughly the same intellectual skepticism that is normally seen with favorite NASCAR drivers or sports teams.

I should take that back: When people's favorite sports teams are losing they tend to get pretty upset about it and demand that the problems be fixed...so favorite sports teams are usually held to more rational scrutiny than firearm brand names.


Does this Gen417 have the counter-bore or non-counter bore slide?

Todd flew out to the left coast to teach a class this morning, so a response may be somewhat delayed.

[F-Trooper05]

I don't think CZ forum lurkers got over Zed is not your friend (http://pistol-training.com/archives/3218) yet.

The comments section on that post is terribly entertaining.

[Savage Hands]

Ok, change it back to multiple thumbs up now :p

[YVK]

Based on response this announcement has received so far, I could be the only one who has mixed feelings about the choice. This gen4 17 could be banging away nonstop, but would that negate the fact of Todd's gen4 19 is so off that it had to be kept for "analysis"?

[LittleLebowski]

It is what it is, YVK. He certainly tried to get a G19

I'm just impressed that Todd is anteing up his own money and ammo to run this. This is one of the most unbiased tests I've ever heard of.

I have a Gen4 G19 and like it. It's on me right now.

[David]

I called it other than the model and if his 19 didn't have issues I probably would have been 100%. Thank me. :cool:

http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?203-What-s-Next&p=2424&viewfull=1#post2424

[CK1]

Looking forward to this one. The G17 is my favorite all-around pistol, but my early Gen4 was a POS and was a real let-down, hope the bugs are worked out now and Todd's shows they're ready for mass consumption.

[LittleLebowski]

I was one of the Gen4 G17 early adopters. Mine ran like crap until the 300 rd mark and then all of a sudden settled down and ran great.

[atingle]

I might wait on that 3rd Gen Glock 17 purchase, to see how this all plays out.

Regards,
Alan

[turbolag23]

I was one of the Gen4 G17 early adopters. Mine ran like crap until the 300 rd mark and then all of a sudden settled down and ran great.

my first thoughts were that any issues would be early if at all. i dont see it going like the HK45 but i wouldnt mind being proven wrong.

[98z28]

Well this is awesome. I just switched to Ggen4 Glocks for duty about a month ago (G17/19/26). I guess if it doesn't go well I'll have to switch back to HKs. ;)

Looking forward to this one.

[Prdator]

From PT.com, "Glock isn’t even involved in — or sanctioning — the test"
I read that as Glock is a bit to worried about a true test of the Gen 4 in 9mm. Im a huge fan of the gen 4 glocks but Glock should be ashamed of their self for not ponying up the $$ for this test!!!!!!

[ToddG]

While I certainly understand the thought process, I'm going to ask that we don't go down the road of speculating about what Glock would or wouldn't do regarding the test, or why.

[YVK]

It is what it is, YVK. He certainly tried to get a G19



Don't know if I didn't make my point well, but the fact he couldn't get a 19 doesn't worry me a bit, Li'l. I treat G19 and G17 as [almost] same.
My point is that statement "first Gen 4 9 mm Glock considered for p-t.com endurance challenge failed before said test even started" is not far off base.

[ToddG]

The first PTC endurance test (M&P9) got started when S&W responded to my complaint about a broken slide on my personally owned M&P9. This is a similar situation.

I agree with YVK that the G19 experience is relevant, which is why it's part of the kick off post.

[YVK]

Todd, in a course of your P30 test you proved several dogmas (importance of reset length and low bore axis) wrong by consistent high performance and achievement of a personal best F.A.S.T.

My prediction is that you'll better your time with G17. Assuming for a second that my prediction is correct, would it be supporting a case that above dogmas aren't really dogmas?

[Savage Hands]

Out of curiosity Todd, what are your F.A.S.T. records with each gun or any gun for that matter?

[Prdator]

Todd,

You say a ridiculous amount of ammo is on the way from ATK, so is that More than 50K?
and what carry ammo do you plan to run in it?

[fuse]

I was one of the Gen4 G17 early adopters. Mine ran like crap until the 300 rd mark and then all of a sudden settled down and ran great.

as was I.

except mine always ran well, and still does. and I even am still using the original now recalled spring! just haven't gotten around to getting glock to send me a new one..

though I only have about 1100 rounds through it. I bet todd matches that the first week :D

[NickA]

Well yay for me...I'll be at an AFHF class in a few weeks, and among other things looking for TLG's advice on AIWB carrying a Glock. I just got a Gen 3 G17 to go with my 19; bet it would fit in Todd's new holster....just sayin' ;)

[joshs]

My prediction is that you'll better your time with G17. Assuming for a second that my prediction is correct, would it be supporting a case that above dogmas aren't really dogmas?

Why? The test gun before the P30 had a low bore axis and short reset. I'm not doubting that Todd may break some of his personal bests with this year's test gun, only questioning whether that would prove disprove/prove any dogmas. I'm sure Todd, like everyone else who practices on a regular basis, hopes that he shoots better this year than two years ago. But, I think that any improvements should be attributed to Todd's hard work, not changing pistols.

[YVK]

Yes, certainly, Josh, your point is well taken. In the same vein, though, it is at least theoretically possible that Todd's times are better with P30 over MP because of Todd's skill progression and not because bore axis and reset are meaningless.

[John Ralston]

I guess a way to decide if it is getting to put close to 100k rounds down the pipe that improved his FAST times would be to go back to an M&P9 and see what his times today are compared to his best time with that gun prior. If he blows away his P30 times right out of the gate, well then maybe there is something to the low bore axis thing.

Not sure of the reset length on the M&P, but I don't think the reset length is a factor unless the shooter makes it one. Rob Leatham is a trigger slapper, he doesn't ride the face of the trigger (it prevents short stroking). He comes completely off the face of the trigger for every shot and I have yet to hear anyone tell him he is slow ;) Less take up is nice, but I don't know that it factors into the grand scheme of things the way some would have us believe.

[Frank D.]

To add to the derail, I believe Todd Jarrett is another who comes completely off the trigger, for whatever its worth.

Maybe someone should start a thread?

/derail

[JV_]

Maybe someone should start a thread?

/derail

Good idea.

[Frank B]

Todd Jarrett teach the trigger slap as far as I know. I think this works with an highly tuned Para USA or any other single action system.

[Kyle Reese]

Let's keep this thread on track and focused, please.

[John Ralston]

OK...since I helped derail, I will help get it back on track.

Not having handled a G4 yet, has anyone found the interchangeable backstraps to be a benefit for those of us with stubby fingers? It doesn't look like they did much to slim it down...looks more like a benefit for those with bigger hands.

I know ToddG is proportioned more like me, so it will be interesting to get his feedback on that aspect of this year's gun after he gets some rounds through it.

[Frank B]

Last friday at IWA/Nuernberg (Gun/Outdoor Show) I had the chance to finger f..k a Gen4 at the Glock booth. I had a nice chat with one of their representatives and he told me the following:
Gen 4 without a backstrap : distance from grip end to the trigger is around 0,118 inch shorter

Gen 4 with the medium strap is similar to the Gen 3

According to this, it could maybe benefit your grip.

[Chipster]

On Todd G's ability with previous firearms and the current one, I think we have to realize that he is shooting 50,000-100,000 rounds a year (give or take a few thousand). He is going to improve every year I think. The mechanics may effect him somewhat, but let's be honest, can you tell the difference between a 4.10 FAST versus a 4.60 FAST? In competition we all can because we watch it on replays, but in real life, I think I would have a hard time telling which one he is faster with if there was no timer present. I would also venture to guess that how he feels (mentally and physically) play a larger role in how he performs on any given drill.

I knew a firearm instructor that once told me that he could shoot anything well. I gave him a SIG P210-5 (the competition variant) and he was pretty good, put holes all over the paper (like a shotgun). I don't think Todd (or a lot of other guys on this forum) are like that.

However, I do think Todd will improve his times on all the various drills because he is simply getting better each year (if the Glock can keep running that is)

[jslaker]

Last friday at IWA/Nuernberg (Gun/Outdoor Show) I had the chance to finger f..k a Gen4 at the Glock booth. I had a nice chat with one of their representatives and he told me the following:
Gen 4 without a backstrap : distance from grip end to the trigger is around 0,118 inch shorter

Gen 4 with the medium strap is similar to the Gen 3

According to this, it could maybe benefit your grip.

I believe I've heard that Glock specifies Gen4 with no backstrap as being -2mm in size.

[BWT]

I called it!

I said either a Glock 19 or 17 Gen 4. (Frankly... it was kind of obvious, HK doesn't have a new pistol out yet. S&W doesn't either, and the Glock's... Gen 4's are bobbling... they've changed the system, they've pointed the finger at shooters, they've pointed the finger at the springs, they've changed the design... Gen 3 9mm's are great, I think Gen 4's .40 S&W from what I hear are great, but frankly, I think they need two different spring systems, I don't know if they changed them or not yet, but, anyway, we shall see.)

What I didn't predict was him paying for it out of pocket.

Frankly, I think this test *needs* to be done.

I like that he bought it out of a local gun store instead of them selecting the pistol they wanted to send him.

I intently wait for his review on the Ameri-glo I-Dots, between Warren's, Heinie's and Ameri-Glo's, there are some great sights out there for 2-dot sights.

Thanks for doing this Todd.

[David]

I called it!

I said either a Glock 19 or 17 Gen 4.

Yes but I called it with mind-numbing, earth-shattering, pulse-quickening, Charlie Sheen-like accuracy. Behold my greatness:

http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?203-What-s-Next&p=2424&viewfull=1#post2424

[Slavex]

I think the gun will self destruct in the case, before Todd even gets it to the range. I think shortly after Todd will develop rickets and become a piano teacher for the blind.


nah, but I am waiting for an estimate on how many rounds Todd intends to throw through this beast. 100,000k in 10 months would be awesome.

[BWT]

Yes but I called it with mind-numbing, earth-shattering, pulse-quickening, Charlie Sheen-like accuracy. Behold my greatness:

http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?203-What-s-Next&p=2424&viewfull=1#post2424

:p

He's just scurred of the good ol' 19-elemum and veherenable .45 Ace-See-Pee.

Cain't get mech behter 'ahn that grip angul and trigger that breaks lahk a glass rawd.

(<-- 1911 owner and Southerner, before the sand starts flying)

[ToddG]

My prediction is that you'll better your time with G17. Assuming for a second that my prediction is correct, would it be supporting a case that above dogmas aren't really dogmas?

It's impossible to do a truly fair comparison, because hopefully anyone who practices as much as I get to will be improving his overall skill regardless of gun. If I put 10,000 rounds through my G17 in the first month, I'd expect to be shooting that gun better than the P30 I haven't shot seriously in more than a year.

Having said that, there are some very noticeable differences at the outset.

I'm getting much faster followups on the 3x5, substantially faster. That suggests to me that the gun isn't moving as much in recoil. Is that because it has a higher bore axis, or because I shot 50k rounds of .45 last year and my grip/stance/technique improved?

My reloads are noticeably slower, and I am fumbling a higher percentage of reloads. The change in grip angle is causing me to bring the mag to the gun at the wrong angle. I've got some ideas that I hope will speed up my relearning on this, but for the moment my typical reload with the Glock is about a quarter second slower than it was with the P30.


Out of curiosity Todd, what are your F.A.S.T. records with each gun or any gun for that matter?

I don't have the records in front of me (I'm on my iPad in Sacramento and the database in on my computer back home). My personal lega (by the rules) best was 4.08 with the P30.


You say a ridiculous amount of ammo is on the way from ATK, so is that More than 50K?

Yes.


and what carry ammo do you plan to run in it?

124gr +p HST


Not having handled a G4 yet, has anyone found the interchangeable backstraps to be a benefit for those of us with stubby fingers?

I find it to be significantly better, especially combined with the dramatically improved mag catch button. Even better is the FBI (slightly) extended Gen4 mag button. Hopefully, we'll see a Vickers gen4 mag button before too long.


but let's be honest, can you tell the difference between a 4.10 FAST versus a 4.60 FAST?

Absolutely. You're talking about more than 10% reduction in overall time. That's incredibly significant. I've shot plenty of ~4.60 or better FASTs, but very few ~4.10. If you typically shoot a 10sec FAST, taking half a second off isn't nearly as big a difference compared to someone taking that same half a second off a 5sec FAST.

[YVK]

I'm getting much faster followups on the 3x5, substantially faster. That suggests to me that the gun isn't moving as much in recoil. Is that because it has a higher bore axis, or because I shot 50k rounds of .45 last year and my grip/stance/technique improved?


A dozen of full-speed circle-type drills on the 3x5, half with G17 and half with P30, should give an approximate idea here, provided you have any interest at all in figuring this part out, no?
Anyway, as many have said, the out-of-pocket nature of this endurance test is most impressive, Todd. I am looking forward to results and can't help but wonder if amount of P30s available on secondary market will be inversely proportional to F.A.S.T times you report with G17:D...

[ToddG]

:cool:

I sincerely doubt my FAST times drive the marketplace.

The issue with the test as you propose it comes down to this: one gun is going to be the more immediately familiar because it's the one I'm practicing with all the time. The biggest issue would be the reset. Spending a lot of time shooting a Glock with its shorter reset is likely going to result in short stroking the P30 trigger until I took the time to reacquaint myself with it.

I could shoot the P30 for a month, test; then shoot the Glock for a month and test. But that still wouldn't be completely straightforward because I still have an extra month of dedicated speed practice behind the Glock.

Finally, I don't think I ever suggested that reset and bore axis were meaningless. What I've always maintained is that they are overblown by many shooters and instructors. You can absolutely become a highly skilled shooter with guns that have a longer reset, or have a higher bore axis.

FWIW, I was shooting borrowed G17s the past two weekends (Gen4 5-6 March in Atlanta, Gen3 this past weekend in Sacramento) and in neither case was I turning in super FAST times. My best in Atlanta was over 6 seconds, in fact. This weekend I got a 5.36 and a 5.23.

[John Ralston]

FWIW, I was shooting borrowed G17s the past two weekends (Gen4 5-6 March in Atlanta, Gen3 this past weekend in Sacramento) and in neither case was I turning in super FAST times. My best in Atlanta was over 6 seconds, in fact. This weekend I got a 5.36 and a 5.23.

That's it - I'm selling my Glock...

[YVK]

:cool:

I sincerely doubt my FAST times drive the marketplace.



Don't underestimate this part - the whole marketplace may not change, but trends may. I have asked somewhere if HK has seen a change in sales after your endurance test with P30. There has been a considerable upsurge in interest among online shooting community, and while 5 or 10 dudes switching to P30 means little in a big scheme, these changes may cause a ripple effect.
Example: I've resisted getting P30 for a long time, but said "what the hell" - mostly after regular dudes like me started to post favorable reports. SecondsCount asked me to let him shoot mine, and now is considering getting one of his own...
The fact is that you're probably the only high-level shooter who objectively tracks performance and posts results outside of competition circuit - and this appeals to regular folks.

[Savage Hands]

Don't downplay your endurance tests Todd, as you and Apex Tactical were a huge factor in me even considering buying a M&P over continuing with Glocks. With such a positive experience with them, that's all I run now :cool:

[Chipster]

Honestly, I had a P30 before your tests and traded it off. After I found pistol-training.com I bought another one. You are driving the marketplace to some extent (and I would venture to say more than anyone else right now) and I think you will continue to as long as these tests continue. It is no different than when Handguns ran an article on the 357 sig versus the 357 magnum, I had a hell of a time finding a P229 after that article came out. Your website had over 2 billion visitors, and although I account for slightly over half of that, you still had a lot of people valuing your opinion.

Chip

[ToddG]

First contest: When Will It Stop? (http://pistol-training.com/archives/4535)

Guess when the G17 gen4 will have its first stoppage.

(follow the link ... guesses in this thread DO NOT COUNT)

[turbolag23]

Guess when the G17 gen4 will have its first stoppage.


wow a lot of people are thinking its going to fail early.

[jslaker]

wow a lot of people are thinking its going to fail early.

My take is that it'll likely fail hard early or it'll run like a champ.

If the previous guns have been any indication, my personal expectation is that barring any sort of out of spec part (or assembly ;)), it should probably run a good 25-30k rounds without issue.

[Shellback]

As a long time user of the Glock 19 (Gen 2 & 3) I'm interested in seeing the results of the Gen 4 G17.

I've read a few places that there were some initial growing pains when the Gen 4 was released and that a considerable amount of malfunctions followed. Has Glock released different iterations of the 4th Gen to address these problems? If so is it possible to determine which iteration this is, possibly using S/N? I look forward to reading the results.

[jslaker]

Has Glock released different iterations of the 4th Gen to address these problems? If so is it possible to determine which iteration this is, possibly using S/N? I look forward to reading the results.

Early 9mm Gen4 guns were shipping with the same recoil spring set up as the .40 guns, which caused problems with light loads. Newer guns are shipping with a lighter recoil spring. They're stamped with different part numbers, making it pretty easy to distinguish.

That said, Todd's G19 had problems other than the recoil spring or assembly, so it's possible there are still other demons to be found and sorted out.

[JV_]

There are also a lot of Gen 4 17s without the counterbored guide rod recess.

[ToddG]

My guess is that the 17-4 I bought is relatively new and will have the recess in the spring box (or whatever Glock calls that area of the slide). If not, Glock also has a new guide rod assembly that is specifically meant to address the issues with the slides that lack the recess.

[Steven C.]

So...what was the significance of 10:13 am, per the original post?

-SC

[Prdator]

It signifies that Todd is a dork (http://x-files.wikia.com/wiki/1013).

The "Smoking Man" will be hunting you now!!

[turbolag23]

does tomorrows test get posted at 10:13 as well?

[ToddG]

10:13pm, maybe.

I pick up the gun at 9am. Hope to be at the range by 10am. I've got a lunch meeting around noon and then back to the range until 3:30pm or so. It all depends on whether I get a chance to write it all up before dinner.

[JodyH]

c'mon jam on round 10
:cool:

[Prdator]

10:13pm, maybe.

I pick up the gun at 9am. Hope to be at the range by 10am. I've got a lunch meeting around noon and then back to the range until 3:30pm or so. It all depends on whether I get a chance to write it all up before dinner.


Are you going to put all the "stuff" Sights, trigger ect on it before you start the test? or have you already done that?

[ToddG]

The gun is bone stock as it came from the factory right now because it's in the hands of the gunshop. When I pick it up tomorrow I'm installing the sights, Vickers slide stop, Glock - connector, and Glock NY1 trigger spring before the shooting begins.

[Prdator]

The gun is bone stock as it came from the factory right now because it's in the hands of the gunshop. When I pick it up tomorrow I'm installing the sights, Vickers slide stop, Glock - connector, and Glock NY1 trigger spring before the shooting begins.

Sweet!! Ill be looking for a report of the Vickers slide stop!!
Good luck on this one man!!!!!!! I hope it runs like a top for you!!
And I see a new FAST record in store for you and the G17.. 3.96 is my guess!!

[jslaker]

I hope it runs like a top for you!!
What? Bobbles and falls over after a minute? That's not very nice. :cool:

[Slavex]

you're gonna put this one together properly right?

[fuse]

There are also a lot of Gen 4 17s without the counterbored guide rod recess.

Someone explain this or link me. My gen 4 is a very early model (bought in May of last year) so I assume mine does not have this. I haven't had any issues with my gun, however.

[BigT]

Someone explain this or link me. My gen 4 is a very early model (bought in May of last year) so I assume mine does not have this. I haven't had any issues with my gun, however.

Fuse I would GUESS yours may not be counterbored then. Check where the front of the recoil spring is inserted into the front of the slide.

If so you will need the correct spring assembly which IIRC is product 8692. If is a G17.

[fuse]

Cool, thanks a lot. I'll be calling Glock I suppose.

As I said I have had no failures with the stock (.40 I assume) spring that came with it. also, I have used this reducing ring and a stock gen3 recoil spring without any issues ( http://www.glockworx.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=156838&CAT=3694 --- great product, they are supposedly selling these like hotcakes)

also, around the time I bought it, I read some post by the LAV in which he initially got a gen4 17. he said he didn't have any problems with it (this was when many seemed to be faltering) but he locked the slide back for a week before he shot it. said it helped condition the spring.

now, everything I have read about springs says that shouldn't do anything. the spring will only "get worked", "conditioned", or "broken in" or whatever by storing energy and then releasing that energy, ie, shooting the gun, or racking the slide.

however, he is the LAV, and who I am to question the LAV.

and so it just so happened that I was going out of town for a few days around the time I picked up my gen4 17. and so I locked the slide back and put it back in its case. don't know if it did anything, but as I said, the gun has worked great with my (now recalled) original recoil spring.

[MEH]

Failures at 62,188,230 (http://pistol-training.com/archives/4535#comment-10812) so far.

[turbolag23]

Failures at 62,188,230 (http://pistol-training.com/archives/4535#comment-10812) so far.

and at 392 until the test was suspended. ouch, cant wait to see the write up.

[3-7-77]

Interesting. I'm curious to see what recoil spring the pistol has and what the stoppages were.

[TCinVA]

Failures at 62,188,230 (http://pistol-training.com/archives/4535#comment-10812) so far.

http://blogs.wiltonvillager.com/warriornation/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/tiki.jpg

[MTechnik]

Wow, that is interesting. Glad I chose to stick to the Gen3 G19 this week.

[gtmtnbiker98]

"Reliable as a Glock," huh? How does that saying go? Makes me love my P30 that much more.

[MattInFla]

Wow, that is interesting. Glad I chose to stick to the Gen3 G19 this week.

Yeah, me too. I was back and forth on buying a G3 19 or a G4 19, decided to go with the G3 to keep the same grip style as my G3 34.

I'd also heard of a few people having problems with the Gen 4. Seems there's certainly something wrong with the test gun (or Todd has developed a huge grip issue overnight, which seems pretty unlikely :D ).

[JV_]

My Gen 4 19s have been running quite well, no regrets here.

[rjohnson4405]

I'd also heard of a few people having problems with the Gen 4. Seems there's certainly something wrong with the test gun (or Todd has developed a huge grip issue overnight, which seems pretty unlikely :D ).

You don't know what he was doing all night. Could've worn himself out...

[David]

http://blogs.wiltonvillager.com/warriornation/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/tiki.jpg

I see Sumatra.

[John Ralston]

So...do we know what kind of stopages yet?

[ToddG]

I'll post photos and descriptions on my site tonight.

After lunch, I had another shooter (who owns a G17 gen4 himself and has ~1k rounds through it without a single problem) give my gun a try. On his 144th round, he had a similar malfunction. So that's five malfunctions in 542 rounds.

I am not amused.

I've already called Glock and told them to switch the G17 gen4 they owe me (to replace the G19 gen4 that crapped out earlier this year) to a gen3. Not sure exactly what I'm going to do about the new (store bought) G17 gen4 that crashed & burned today.

Sad, too. It was awesomely accurate.

[Pennzoil]

I guess you have another gun to add to A different take on reliability - Guns you've personally seen fail (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?280-A-different-take-on-reliability-Guns-you-ve-personally-seen-fail).

It seems like Glock is trying to follow Sig's recent business model. I'm 99% Glock but my experience with the Gen 4's, others experience I trust and my new Gen 3 26 has me thinking I'll refrain from any new Glocks for awhile due to being hit or miss.

Walther PPQ now maybe?

[Prdator]

Todd,

Im sure you'll explain, but Ill ask anyway, does this have the new ( correct) spring in it?

I have 5 Gen 4 GLocks in .40 and they are all 100% so far!!!!!! My gen4 G17 not so much!! Maybe this is why the Gen 4 G34's are not out yet and no one that I know has ANY idea when they will be out.

[steve]

Did this one have the Counter bore spring set up?

[JSGlock34]

Certainly this is troubling performance from the GEN4. I do recall this post (http://www.m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=641730&postcount=1) by Larry Vickers though, noting that the GEN4s tend to perform better if you lock the slide back for a week before shooting. Not sure why that would have an effect on reliability, but apparently it is something he recommends.

I'll stick with my family of GEN3 Glocks in the meantime...

ETA: Apparently locking the slide to the rear for a week was a recommendation by Ken Hackathorn per this post (http://www.m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=617758&postcount=645).

[JodyH]

Well Todd... I have a brand new H&K P30 9mm arriving at my dealer early next week.
Enjoy your new Glock!
:p
Actually I love my 2nd and 3rd Gen Glock 17's, but I just knew the 4th Gen was a train wreck waiting to happen (hence my prediction of the first malfunction being round 10).
I'll be doing a 2000 round challenge with the P30, straight out of the box.
We'll see how it goes.

[YVK]

. Not sure exactly what I'm going to do about the new (store bought) G17 gen4 that crashed & burned today.


With P30 test, malfunctioning pistol was "given a chance' when it was sent to HK for repair. I presume the same approach should be taken here, although, since test is not Glock-sanctioned, you'll probably have to fix it yourself.

Having said that and based on my initial thoughts on G19 fiasco, I wouldn't be interested in Gen4 test project any longer unless an underlying cause is identified beyond any reasonable doubt. In year 2011, I have no use for guns that require a mythical "break-in" period without clear understanding what's being broken in; blame my 1911 (ironic, no?) pistolsmith on instilling this attitude.

P.S. Thinking of it, I don't know why I said you'd need to fix it yourself. I think it has to go back to Glock in exchange for a new Gen3.

[MattInFla]

It's not too late to do that hi-point endurance test.....

[AfterWork_Ninja]

It's not too late to do that hi-point endurance test.....

That's funny.

[BWT]

No joke, I seriously was going to predict this thing have major issues at the beginning or not at all.

[AfterWork_Ninja]

The AAR is up.

http://pistol-training.com/

[MattInFla]

Todd, I'm sure that pallet of ammo sitting dormant following the demise of the endurance test gun must be tormenting you. I'll PM you my shipping address, and you can rest your troubles knowing it has gone to a good home.

It would be a bit of a hardship finding a place for it here, but I feel like I should do something to help ;)

[torrefaction]

Man, this has me worried. I just bought a Gen4 G19 a couple of weeks ago. Now, granted, I'm not going to run off to return the thing. It has experienced some FTE's, as I posted in another thread...but only when my girlfriend was firing, and then it was almost every other shot...so I know it was her grip.

I was really looking forward to seeing the endurance test results. In some ways, it sucks that it's pretty clear this isn't the results you'll see from a Gen4 in general so it's hard to really gauge this as true performance.

On the other hand, I'm dying to know what's at the root of the issue...and if it happens to be the springs. First thing I did when I got my Glock was pop it and check the model number on the spring. And I can't even slightly blame Todd for not wanting to carry what has only proven to him to be an unreliable pistol.

[Comedian]

Id be curious to see how long an XDM fullsize would run, without incident. Since they are supposed to be bubba guns.

[jslaker]

Id be curious to see how long an XDM fullsize would run, without incident. Since they are supposed to be bubba guns.

Talk about salt in Glock's wounds.

[Webb297]

6Well my XDM 9mm 4.5" has 1600 rounds through it, no stopages. Its shot about 400 rounds per month.

[mlk18]

It seems to me that Glock rushed this one to market before it was ready. A dangerous mistake that Smith & Wesson learned with the original Sigma line.

[ToddG]

I don't think they rushed it, I think they simply failed to test it with the kinds of ammo most Americans shoot. From what I gather, it's a battle the employees in Smyrna have been waging against Austria for a while now. The Austrians are so tied up in the idea of parts commonality that sometimes they sacrifice functionality.

I'd almost be wiling to bet the gun would run almost flawlessly for tens of thousands of rounds shooting the 124+p HST. I'm just not willing to spend the money to prove that for Glock's benefit.

[willowofwisp]

So depending on what happens, is it possible you could switch to a 3rd gen 17 for the test? or are you gonna wait it out and see what Glock does about your 4th gen

[ToddG]

I don't have a good way to answer that without sounding like Secret Squirrel. Suffice to say no final decisions have been made yet but it is my expectation that I will be shooting a Glock this year one way or the other.

[Pennzoil]

Imagine you won't have to contact Glock for this gun as they've probably already heard the news and contacted you. Hopefully this will help put pressure on them to work out the Gen 4 issues faster.

[dookie1481]

I don't know why I did, but I went over to Glock Talk. Of course, there is a guy calling Todd a "limp-wrister) and a bunch of guys talking about how their Gen4s have hundreds of rounds with no issue.

[ToddG]

FWIW, I saw the GT thread and I don't think anyone there is being unreasonable. For someone who has no idea who I am to question whether I held the gun properly is legit. It would be better if he actually read the post on my site and saw that two experienced shooters had problems, but given the nexus of limited info and limited motivation, it's not unexpected.

I'm sure there will be people who sling arrows over this. All I'd ask of the pistol-forum.com community is that we not let our discussion become about their discussions.

[jslaker]

I don't know why I did, but I went over to Glock Talk. Of course, there is a guy calling Todd a "limp-wrister) and a bunch of guys talking about how their Gen4s have hundreds of rounds with no issue.

Well, and, to be fair, there are *lots* of people that have Gen4s that are working well, just like the second shooter of Todd's gun. This mostly confirms that not all of the guns are running as they should.

[Joe in PNG]

One of the great things about being unable to buy anyfirearms until January is that Glock should have all the issues worked out with the G4 by the time I'm able to buy one.

...maybe.

[Frank B]

The Glock represetative at IWA Nuernberg told me, that the problems with the spring mostly occur with guns in CONUS, but should be solved soon. He told me, too, they don´t have that much problems around Europe.
If this is true, what is the difference between Europe and the US re guns and ammo?

[willowofwisp]

I don't have a good way to answer that without sounding like Secret Squirrel. Suffice to say no final decisions have been made yet but it is my expectation that I will be shooting a Glock this year one way or the other.

thats a good enough answer for me lol.

[BigT]

The Glock represetative at IWA Nuernberg told me, that the problems with the spring mostly occur with guns in CONUS, but should be solved soon. He told me, too, they don´t have that much problems around Europe.
If this is true, what is the difference between Europe and the US re guns and ammo?

My guess is it because run of the mill European 9mm stuff runs hotter.

[Frank B]

This would match LAV´s ( leave the slide locked open for a week)suggestion from another forum.

[part-time shooter]

This has got to be a nightmare for Glock, they launch "the next big thing" slap Glock Perfection all over it and it's a dud. They can't just sit back and wait it out either because there are a LOT of people paying attention to how Glock handles these issues. How many departments and agencies are now taking a wait and see approach to purchasing new Glocks because of this or moving to other weapons because of it?

You've always been able to walk into any gun store and buy a 9mm Glock and be 99.5% certain that out of the box that pistol was always going to perform as needed, always. You can't say that anymore and that's the one thing that made a Glock, well a Glock. They were the Timex of the gun world, but not anymore. They are making bean counter decisions in a business environment where your reputation is made on your products performance. The Gen 3 Glock set the bar very high performance wise and the Gen 4 just can't jump that high. At least not yet.

[YVK]

This has got to be a nightmare for Glock, they launch "the next big thing" slap Glock Perfection all over it and it's a dud. They can't just sit back and wait it out either because there are a LOT of people paying attention to how Glock handles these issues. How many departments and agencies are now taking a wait and see approach to purchasing new Glocks because of this or moving to other weapons because of it?


Glock has just won a multi-million ATF award for Gen4 0.40 cal pistols. Since Glock insists on interchangeability of springs between 9 and 40, going with preference to 40 could be, and probably is, a calculated risk which may be paying off - outside of disappointment of US civilian customers. 40 is a very common (most common?) US LEO round, and Gen4 40s run well. 9 is a most common European LEO/mil round, and Gen4 nines run well with European ammo. Since governmental contracts are arguably the biggest sources of profit for firearms companies, Gen4 Glocks are fairly well positioned to compete at their intended markets - throwing under a bus an occasional US civilian customer customer whose Gen4 9mm doesn't run.

This is my theory only, I claim no insider knowledge; I just find it hard to believe that Glock suddenly forgot how to make reliable nines.

[phungus_mungus]

Well, it would appear that all the internet buzz regarding the gen 4 GLocks may be correct.

With the gen 4 they fixed the issues that plagued the .40 cals but int he process boogered up the 9mm...

Guess all those saying avoid the gen 4 G17 may be right...

[phungus_mungus]

FWIW, I saw the GT thread and I don't think anyone there is being unreasonable. For someone who has no idea who I am to question whether I held the gun properly is legit. It would be better if he actually read the post on my site and saw that two experienced shooters had problems, but given the nexus of limited info and limited motivation, it's not unexpected.

I'm sure there will be people who sling arrows over this. All I'd ask of the pistol-forum.com community is that we not let our discussion become about their discussions.

Limp wristing seems to have became the catch all be all diagnosis of anything that ailes any Glock... no matter the shooters experience.

Its to the point now that I just roll my eyes when someone claims a given persons problems are limp wristing...

[phungus_mungus]

Well, and, to be fair, there are *lots* of people that have Gen4s that are working well, just like the second shooter of Todd's gun. This mostly confirms that not all of the guns are running as they should.

I don;t know ToddG but thru his internet presence I trust him and counting his gen 4 Glock this is the third one I have first hand knowledge of malfunctioning in the exact same way.

[JSGlock34]

This would match LAV´s ( leave the slide locked open for a week)suggestion from another forum.

I'd be curious to see if the 'lock the slide back' for a week suggestion does anything to cure this pistol's ills. Perhaps there is excessive recoil spring tension in the new design?

Like many, I tend to focus on the new recoil spring assembly as the root of the GEN4 9mm problems, but I wonder if the GEN4 design changed anything extractor related?

The GEN4 saga just seems to reconfirm the old adage about fixing things that aren't broken...

[jslaker]

Like many, I tend to focus on the new recoil spring assembly as the root of the GEN4 9mm problems, but I wonder if the GEN4 design changed anything extractor related?

Looking at the GlockTalk thread about Todd's test gun, there was mention and a link to the thread about Glock changing the extractor design slightly with late 3rd Gen and 4th Gen guns.

[AfterWork_Ninja]

Can someone remind me what is considered a stoppage and what's a malfunction in regards to the testing?

[jslaker]

Can someone remind me what is considered a stoppage and what's a malfunction in regards to the testing?

A little creative Google work reveals:


Stoppage: Any failure of the pistol to go through its entire cycle of operation. This could include a failure to feed, fire, extract, or eject. A problem qualifies as a Stoppage if and only if the shooter is capable of fixing the problem without the use of any tools, without disassembling the gun in any way (magazine can be removed), and the pistol is in firing condition in less than 30 seconds. For example, a stovepipe or failure of the slide to go fully into battery would be Stoppages.

Malfunction: Any failure of the pistol to go through its entire cycle of operation and which requires the use of tools, disassembly of any part of the pistol, and/or takes more than 30 seconds to resolve, but does not require any parts replacement. For example, a dislodged spring or a front sight that falls off the gun would be Malfunctions.

Breakage: Any failure of the pistol to go through its entire cycle of operation and which requires parts replacement to resolve. For example, a broken spring or chipped extractor would be Breakages.

http://pistol-training.com/archives/1604#comment-2169

[Prdator]

Chuck — awesome call on the extractor. Made a small change to the gun and it ran 100% (300rd) today. Details to follow…

By ToddG on Mar 19, 2011


Okay Todd, what'd ya do??????????? Looks like hope on the Gen 4??

with all the hubub I ran almost 300 rounds though my Gen 4, 17 WHO and it ran like a champ..

[TCinVA]

I talked with Todd today and apparently he changed the extractor on the Gen4 G17 with an extractor from a gen3 based sims Glock and the gun worked for him. I stopped by the range for a little bit and I didn't see it puke.

[jslaker]

I talked with Todd today and apparently he changed the extractor on the Gen4 G17 with an extractor from a gen3 based sims Glock and the gun worked for him. I stopped by the range for a little bit and I didn't see it puke.

This is really interesting given there was some discussion about swapping in older 3rd gen extractors into problematic guns when I looked at GlockTalk.

[BWT]

FWIW, I saw the GT thread and I don't think anyone there is being unreasonable. For someone who has no idea who I am to question whether I held the gun properly is legit. It would be better if he actually read the post on my site and saw that two experienced shooters had problems, but given the nexus of limited info and limited motivation, it's not unexpected.

I'm sure there will be people who sling arrows over this. All I'd ask of the pistol-forum.com community is that we not let our discussion become about their discussions.

I sincerely respect that.

Todd's a classy guy.

[ToddG]

Full explanation here (http://pistol-training.com/archives/4577).

Short version: changed extractor to a pre-LCI (loaded chamber indicator) version off an old G17/T as TCinVA mentioned above. Gun ran 300 rounds without a bobble. Monday I'll be at the range for the whole day putting a lot of rounds through the gun. If it continues to run with the new (old) extractor, I'll send the old (new) extractor to Glock for evaluation.

[Savage Hands]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_k_ICSkAB1hk/TKLZPZI8dsI/AAAAAAAAGfc/eNMbqc1EEWw/s1600/simpsons_mr_burns_excellent.jpg

[Frank B]

Sounds great so far! Hopefully the test continues in a good way.

[turbolag23]

Glad to hear its running better now, hopefully it continues to run fine.

[Chuck Haggard]

Great, now guys all over the country will be robbing Sim guns of extractors.


On a serious note. In my observation and experience, many of the issues with the various Glocks have parallels in the issues displayed by the M4 and various M16/AR15 system SBRs.

The fails-to-feed issues with the shorty ARs are basically the same dynamic as what was dealt with in the M4.

Note that to cure the M4 feed issues they had to correct several imbalances in the timing of the gun by the use of better extractor springs, spring insert, H buffers, M4 feed ramps, etc.

The G22 in particular has been plagued with these issues, and all Glock has thrown at it has been 11 coil mag spring, an endless redesign of the magazine follower, and now a bigger recoil spring.

Compare and contrast the efforts and effect between these two guns. Anyone think the M4 system would be as successful if all they had done was upgrade the magazine springs?

In many of the issues that I have seen with Glock extraction/ejection, it's, IMHO, due to the extractor being a bit under-sprung. This causes extractor bounce during the slide unlocking cycle.
This in turn doesn't allow the case to get a good kick in the butt by the ejector due to the extractor letting go of the case too soon.

IMHO the whole issue with the NYPD "phase III" jams (and these were true jams, not mere malfs since you needed tools to reduce the issue) was due to this.

Other issues such as cases bopping shooters in the head repeatedly are a minor version of this.

In the case of Todd's gun, it may be that the extractor is out of spec, or the older extractor geometry works better for that gun, but I think it could be the slightly smaller mass on the old vs new extractor design.

Less mass=less bounce.

I'd bet a dollar that the old extractor would have worked with a spring loaded bearing from a .40 added to the system to replace the 9mm SLB.

[ToddG]

I'd bet a dollar that the old extractor would have worked with a spring loaded bearing from a .40 added to the system to replace the 9mm SLB.

I'll try to get my hands on one. If that's the case, Glock would be thrilled. It would mean they could solve their problem by increasing parts commonality, which is a holy grail over there. And it would mean there wouldn't need to be any redesigned parts.

[JDM]

I'd like to ask everyone to step back and look at the enormity of what is taking place here. A handful of very bright, very dedicated firearms enthusiasts have almost (or possibly already have) solved what has become Glock's biggest eff up-ever.

I don't know any other "interest" if you will, that attracts such dedicated, creative individuals, that work together out of a genuine desire to help others-many they have never even met- to solve problems like this. Epic isn't a powerful enough word.

Good people. Amazing people.

[TCinVA]

I think you have a point. Forums are a fantastic way to get a bunch of people who may have nuggets of insight on their own talking and forming a bigger picture than anyone can come up with on their own.

[Chuck Haggard]

A handful of very bright, very dedicated firearms enthusiasts have almost (or possibly already have) solved what has become Glock's biggest eff up-ever.


I am likely going to sound like an egotistical pompous ass now.

I told our local Glock rep in the spring of 2006 the fixes for the G22 issue. I spent a great deal of time and ammo on the problem during the debacle we had while attempting to transition to the Glock 22 as a department. I bought aftermarket springs and guide rods, swapped all kinds of parts, and experimented with crazy shit like hot gluing lead shot to the slide of a G22 to give it more weight.

1; Preferred; chamber the GAP guns in .40
I have in my possession a Glock 37 upper with a custom .40 barrel, it works.
Even just dropping a G22 barrel into a G37 works most of the time on an experimental basis, and the issue then is with sloppy barrel fit and not fails-to-feed.

I told our guy they were even set for the next big deal since the next model number was 40 "The new Glock model 40". That gun would even have a bull-ish barrel, another selling point.
Since there were already duty holsters available for the GAP guns there would have been a smooth transition, no need to F with the 9mms, recoil spring compatibility across the board, etc.

2; Shrink the grip a bit on the G20 and chamber it for .40 (the G20 makes a most excellent .40, and .357Sig BTW, I stole that idea from Jim Cirillo, he knew a bit about pistols as it turns out).

3: More recoil spring. I even specifically told Joe that they might want to look at the double nested recoil spring like they had on the G26/27/33 since that system seemed to work.

No bullshit.


I think the G37 chambered in .40 would have been the way to go. When the M4 and other SBRs have timing issues, do you get a stronger spring, or do you get a heavier buffer?


At any rate, Glock needs a beefed up spring to power the extractor. If you look at the chain of parts involved there that spring has really, really shitty leverage against the extractor compared to the set-up on most other psitol.

[ToddG]

tpd -- Not to discount what you're saying, but the most noticeable difference between the two extractors I've used in this gun (the non-LCI'03 and the LCI'10) is that the non-LCI one drops right in and out while the LCI extractor requires some force and leverage to remove.

Whether that binding occurs during the normal cycle of operation I couldn't say.

If more extractor spring force is all that's needed, what an amazingly simple solution for Glock though, no?

[phungus_mungus]

I'm shocked...

You mean it wasn't the holy grail end-all-be-all-catch-all diagnosis that Glocker's tend to blame everything on?

The limp wrist... :rolleyes:

[Pennzoil]

Todd does your LCI extractor show a lot of wear?

I pulled the extractor from my problem Glock (LCI'10) and compared it to my primary guns extractor (Non-LCI'99). The difference in wear is pretty apparent even with my crap pictures. The edge of the extractor on my LCI'10 looks uneven and possibly chipped also.

The one on the left is my Non-LCI'99 which I'm unsure on round count as I didn't really start doing that to recently but it's at least 10x what the LCI'10 on the right has had put through it @1600.

http://img858.imageshack.us/img858/958/img2531.jpg

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/8256/img2530f.jpg


Think I'm going to change my guns with LCI over to the Non-LCI due to how shitty the LCI look quality wise and see how it goes. 300 rds seems early for a victory speech so it'll be interesting how the test gun does on Monday

[jslaker]

the most noticeable difference between the two extractors I've used in this gun (the non-LCI'03 and the LCI'10) is that the non-LCI one drops right in and out while the LCI extractor requires some force and leverage to remove.

That seems to be a common theme in that thread over at GlockTalk. Makes me wonder if Glock borked the tolerances on the new extractor and it's hanging during cycling.

[ToddG]

You mean it wasn't the holy grail end-all-be-all-catch-all diagnosis that Glocker's tend to blame everything on?

In fairness, it was a Glock Talk (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1329029) regular who suggested putting the older extractor in the gun.

[Prdator]

Looking at some of my extractors today, I found the newer extractors out of the 4th Gen guns I have, have more of a porous texture than the older extractors I have in stock.

The new ones have a slight "dip" were it looks like then have been injected molded. The older ones have more of "slick" surface and looks like they have been machined.

For what it's worth the extractos in my 4th gen .40's have what looks like a "LOT" of wear on them!! Lots of shiny spots.

So maybe that's some of the issue? the extractor slot is a bit under sized or the extractor a bit over size. depending on how that tolerance stacks up.

Looking forward to Todd running more ammo though his Gen 4!!!!!!

[SecondsCount]

Looking at some of my extractors today, I found the newer extractors out of the 4th Gen guns I have, have more of a porous texture than the older extractors I have in stock.

The new ones have a slight "dip" were it looks like then have been injected molded. The older ones have more of "slick" surface and looks like they have been machined.

For what it's worth the extractos in my 4th gen .40's have what looks like a "LOT" of wear on them!! Lots of shiny spots.
I hate speculating but Kimber used the MIM process in their external extractor design and it failed. I wonder if it was because of inconsistencies in the process. This is not to say that MIM is a bad process because it has been proven to work, it is the quality control of the process that is critical and may be missing from the Glock extractors.

[LittleLebowski]

Mine as well, I've been meaning to get pics up for a while.


Todd does your LCI extractor show a lot of wear?

I pulled the extractor from my problem Glock (LCI'10) and compared it to my primary guns extractor (Non-LCI'99). The difference in wear is pretty apparent even with my crap pictures. The edge of the extractor on my LCI'10 looks uneven and possibly chipped also.

The one on the left is my Non-LCI'99 which I'm unsure on round count as I didn't really start doing that to recently but it's at least 10x what the LCI'10 on the right has had put through it @1600.

http://img858.imageshack.us/img858/958/img2531.jpg

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/8256/img2530f.jpg


Think I'm going to change my guns with LCI over to the Non-LCI due to how shitty the LCI look quality wise and see how it goes. 300 rds seems early for a victory speech so it'll be interesting how the test gun does on Monday

[LittleLebowski]

I humbly admit that I do not know what LCI means.

[JV_]

I humbly admit that I do not know what LCI means.

Loaded Chamber Indicator.

Pic Here:
http://www.westernshooter.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/Glock-22-GEN4-Loaded-Chamber-Indicator.jpg

[Savage Hands]

I humbly admit that I do not know what LCI means.


Loaded Chamber Indicator, the one in the pic above on the right.

[ToddG]

I humbly admit that I do not know what LCI means.

It means you can sell your pistol in California. :cool:

[jslaker]

I've never cared for LCIs, personally, especially extractor type LCIs. They're too easy to miss and I don't trust them anyhow. I don't feel comfortable without a visual+tactile chamber check.

[F-Trooper05]

In fairness, it was a Glock Talk (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1329029) regular who suggested putting the older extractor in the gun.

It's killing me that you're on Glocktalk. Nasty...

[ToddG]

It's killing me that you're on Glocktalk. Nasty...

Without them, I'd be running around like a chicken with its head cut off right now. And with the exception of fifty or so people, no one wants to see that. :cool:

[Prdator]

Without them, I'd be running around like a chicken with its head cut off right now. And with the exception of fifty or so people, no one wants to see that. :cool:

Just FIFTY???? :D

Some of the Guys on GT are Incredible resources!!!!!, they know more about Glocks in some cases than GLock does. ( or it seems that way) You just have to know the good from the bad.

[ToddG]

Just FIFTY???? :D

I admit, I may have got bored and just stopped counting...

[YVK]

I hate speculating but Kimber used the MIM process in their external extractor design and it failed. I wonder if it was because of inconsistencies in the process. This is not to say that MIM is a bad process because it has been proven to work, it is the quality control of the process that is critical and may be missing from the Glock extractors.

SC, not to deviate this thread, but issues with Kimber's external extractor weren't due to MIM. I had one of those lousy EE Kimbers, and I had a rare opportunity to have a nationally recognized 1911 builder look it over. The problem was in design; I'll fill you in when we shoot next time.

[Chuck Haggard]

tpd -- Not to discount what you're saying, .......
If more extractor spring force is all that's needed, what an amazingly simple solution for Glock though, no?

I hedged my bets with the "out of spec" comment.

If the extractor can't rotate properly in the slot then that would indeed cause serious issues with it being able to do it's job.

[ToddG]

It cannot rotate enough to fall out. I'm not sure whether it rotated freely along the arc needed in extraction.

Someone on Glock Talk tried the G22 LBS replacement with no success, unfortunately.

[SecondsCount]

SC, not to deviate this thread, but issues with Kimber's external extractor weren't due to MIM. I had one of those lousy EE Kimbers, and I had a rare opportunity to have a nationally recognized 1911 builder look it over. The problem was in design; I'll fill you in when we shoot next time.

I believe you on the design issues but they had the same scenario that Glock is having, some ran great and others not so much.

[Chuck Haggard]

The SLB thing worked fine on several other guns that I have tried it on. I guess that doesn't mean it will work on all of them, especially if there are issues with parts being too big/rough/whatever.


I hope this doesn't mean the rumors that I have heard about Glock sending the small parts out for bid to other countries is true. Keeping the price of the gun the same is an admirable goal, but doing so at the expense of reliability is a bad idea.

At any rate, the finish on the newer guns and parts is not nearly as nice as it used to be, so I wouldn't be shocked to learn Glock had cut corners elsewhere as well.


Good to hear it may be a simple problem though. If this is a batch of out of spec extractors, that's an easy fix. Seeing those pics made me dead sure it was an extractor/extraction issue.

[fuse]

I heard Apex would be making an aftermarket Glock extractor.

(I heard this from the voices in my head)

[JonInWA]

Todd, in the back of my mind I'm wondering if since you've switched to the earlier non-LCI extractor if you also need to concurrently need to switch out your OEM spring loaded bearing for the older spring-loaded bearing for a non-LCI extractor (the older spring-loaded bearing's Glock part number is SO01176) to ensure continued extraction reliability with the non-LCI extractor?

Best, Jon

[ToddG]

Jon -- When I switched the extractor, I switched the entire extractor assembly including the SLB.

[John Ralston]

Are the Gen 4 LCI Extractors different than the LCI Extractors that were on some Gen 3 guns? My G19 has an LCI, and I have never had an issue with it (I have had it for several years).

[Chuck Haggard]

I'm guessing so John.

When we gave up on the G22 in 2006 and went with the G17 we got LCI extractors on all those guns.

While testing a new frame style gen 3 G17 back then I put 5700 rounds through the gun in one day, no issues.

We have 325-ish shooters, issue G17s and G19s, and the G26 is our most carried BUG/off-duty gun. I have never seen an issue with any of them.


I currently have 6 3rd gen 9mms, I have had exactly one gun related stoppage (a few others with out of spec ammo, which I don't count) and that was with my duty G17 that was also tested very heavily in 2006 and shot quite a bit ever since.

I had well over 15,000 rounds through that gun when I got a malf similar to the in-line stovepipe (not sure what else to call it) in Todd's pics.
I installed a new spring and SLB in that gun and did not have any other issues.

By that time the extractor spring had gotten rather weak, my bad for not checking it prior due to the high round count on that gun.

[JHC]

You had no issues with LCI guns back a few years ago, but I have had no issues with four Gen 4 9mm's (12.5K rds now) and many others haven't either. Yet some very recent (2010) Gen 3 buyers have reported the same problems and fixed them by switching to older extractors too.
It's not going to be a blanket LCI answer I don't think. Someone noted the possibility of just QC over the various batches/lots of them. And the tolerances/room for error may be that much less forgiving in Gen 4's as Todd noted on his blog.

Something like this makes most sense to me. It would explain how the new gun would pass through Glock internal trails to get to market, excel in ATF trials, impress so many Gen 4 owners but create nagging problems for a substantial number of other users.

Not altogether unlike M&P dead trigger issues. Todd's M&P didn't, mine did. :confused:

[LittleLebowski]

Well, the pistol is not running right still. I just helped Todd put some rounds through it. It did not malfunction for me, even with strong hand only shooting from my gunshot (and therefore damaged) arm. Same malfunctions as before.

[littlejerry]

Hello, my first post here. I've been watching this thread grow and I felt obligated to post my experience as well.

Currently I have two Glock 19s- a gen 4 and gen 3. Both have performed extremely well. The gen 3 has over 5000 rounds with no notable issues and the Gen 4 is at 1700 with no malfunctions since the first magazine(a 180 degree stovepipe). On saturday I put 520 rounds of Brown Bear through the Gen4 with zero malfunctions.

I just disassembled both pistols to check the extractors. Both have the loaded chamber indicator but the Gen4 has a "2" on the face where the spring/bearing press on the extractor. The Gen4 also has the "scalloped" cut on the top face.

One thing I noticed instantly was that the Gen4 extractor was much more difficult to remove. Upon removal I noticed a significant amount of wear on both the top and bottom faces of the extractor- far more than my Gen3 which has much more use. I measured the thickness of both parts and the Gen4 is ~0.005" thicker. The slot in the slides both measured exactly the same.

It certainly appears as though my extractor started out "rough" with so many silver edges and spots on it.

Perhaps anyone having issues can try lightly smoothing the top and bottom surfaces with a fine file.

[JHC]

And FWIW, this is one of the first guys I came across that pointed at the extractors - when he encountered extraction issues with a new Gen 3 last year. See post #237 from kjdoski.

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=872469#post872469

[MEH]

Not altogether unlike M&P dead trigger issues. Todd's M&P didn't, mine did. :confused:

Todd's two stoppages as described sure sounded like dead triggers (http://pistol-training.com/archives/275) to me.

My M&P's had a dead trigger too.

Was contemplating switching to Glocks, but NOT Gen4s.

[Savage Hands]

Todd's two stoppages as described sure sounded like dead triggers (http://pistol-training.com/archives/275) to me.

My M&P's had a dead trigger too.

Was contemplating switching to Glocks, but NOT Gen4s.


Get the sear block plunger upgrade from Apex.

[MEH]

Get the sear block plunger upgrade from Apex.

Done that. Still testing....

It's not necessarily the total solution in my mind, yet.

Here is a guy (http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=124846) with a stock S&W SHB with large sear plunger hole and it dead trigger'ed with the apex sear.

[Savage Hands]

Wow, that's the first one I've seen post upgrade.

[MEH]

To be fair, Apex did not upgrade his SHB. It came with the large plunger from S&W.

Apex has been nothing but superb in all my dealings with them and they will continue to get my business.

[JV_]

Please keep this thread on topic. M&P and Apex discussions belong in their own thread.

[ToddG]

Jon -- When I switched the extractor, I switched the entire extractor assembly including the SLB.

Ummmm... No, I didn't.

So apparently, if you get your SLBs mixed up and put the LCI (thin head) SLB in with a non-LCI extractor, you get about 99.8% reliability but not 100%. My buddy the armorer/instructor sorted me out today and didn't laugh too hard at my fumble.

I'll detail it all on my site, but today's stoppages won't count against the gun. Truth be told, it's pretty impressive that it worked so much more reliably (3 stoppages in 1,536 rounds) than with the original extractor (5 stoppages in 548 rounds).

[jslaker]

Ummmm... No, I didn't.

So apparently, if you get your SLBs mixed up and put the LCI (thin head) SLB in with a non-LCI extractor, you get about 99.8% reliability but not 100%. My buddy the armorer/instructor sorted me out today and didn't laugh too hard at my fumble.

I'll detail it all on my site, but today's stoppages won't count against the gun. Truth be told, it's pretty impressive that it worked so much more reliably (3 stoppages in 1,536 rounds) than with the original extractor (5 stoppages in 548 rounds).

It's not a real pistol-training.com endurance test until Todd puts something together wrong. :cool:

[DeltaKilo]

I should send Todd my Brown and see how quickly he breaks it. :D

[ToddG]

It's not a real pistol-training.com endurance test until Todd puts something together wrong. :cool:

Now you're just being mean. Fifty billion demerits.

[DeltaKilo]

It's not a real pistol-training.com endurance test until Todd puts something together wrong. :cool:

Come on now, it's a simple mistake, could've happened to anyone. Heck, I don't know much about all these new-fangled pistols, so far all I know, I could rebuild them and make a glockmnpHK...

[TCinVA]

It's not a real pistol-training.com endurance test until Todd puts something together wrong. :cool:

Well done.

[JonInWA]

Ummmm... No, I didn't.

So apparently, if you get your SLBs mixed up and put the LCI (thin head) SLB in with a non-LCI extractor, you get about 99.8% reliability but not 100%. My buddy the armorer/instructor sorted me out today and didn't laugh too hard at my fumble.

I'll detail it all on my site, but today's stoppages won't count against the gun. Truth be told, it's pretty impressive that it worked so much more reliably (3 stoppages in 1,536 rounds) than with the original extractor (5 stoppages in 548 rounds).

I'll quietly bask in my omniscience...(but I'm glad your armorer bud got it sorted out properly)

Best, Jon

[JodyH]

So uhhh now that the Glock test is back on, you wouldn't want to swap a Glock 17 holster for a P30 holster would ya?
:p

[ToddG]

So uhhh now that the Glock test is back on, you wouldn't want to swap a Glock 17 holster for a P30 holster would ya?

Do you know how much a P30 Shaggy is worth, dude? I could use another kidney, though...

[SLG]

Todd,

Maybe you'll get some big dots thrown in as well;)

[ToddG]

Maybe you'll get some big dots thrown in as well;)

Fair enough. The only thing I'd use them for is processing urine, after all. :cool:

[MattInFla]

Ummmm... No, I didn't.

So apparently, if you get your SLBs mixed up and put the LCI (thin head) SLB in with a non-LCI extractor, you get about 99.8% reliability but not 100%. My buddy the armorer/instructor sorted me out today and didn't laugh too hard at my fumble.

I'll detail it all on my site, but today's stoppages won't count against the gun. Truth be told, it's pretty impressive that it worked so much more reliably (3 stoppages in 1,536 rounds) than with the original extractor (5 stoppages in 548 rounds).

Stand by to be overrun by HK fans irate over the HK45 being dinged for a reassembly issue (http://pistol-training.com/archives/3620) ;)

[ToddG]

Stand by to be overrun by HK fans irate over the HK45 being dinged for a reassembly issue (http://pistol-training.com/archives/3620) ;)

So since this keeps coming up: The HK "reassembly issue" was most likely an out of spec part. The spring did not lock into the gun until it was tweaked after falling out. Too many people glossed over the details where it was explained that I installed the spring and even tugged on it to make sure it was in place properly. Then under recoil it came out. But because I had just frakked with it (and because, ironically enough, the armorer course I was given specifically skipped the removal and installation of that part because "you'll never need to worry about it"), I put the little asterisk and explained everything in detail. Folks who want to assume it was me and not the gun are certainly within their rights, and they may in fact be right. But I don't think so, which is why I counted it against the gun.

The Glock SLB thing was much more clear cut. The wrong part was in the gun.

[Chuck Haggard]

So apparently, if you get your SLBs mixed up and put the LCI (thin head) SLB in with a non-LCI extractor, you get about 99.8% reliability but not 100%.

See what I'm sayin about how touchy the extractor tension can be on these guns?

[SouthNarc]

I think Todd's extractor tension is touchy.

[ToddG]

See what I'm sayin about how touchy the extractor tension can be on these guns?

Absolutely.


I think Todd's extractor tension is touchy.

Further evidence that law enforcement professional should stay away from stand up comedy. You and SLG should start a comedy tour. You could call it Cancelled After First Show.

[JodyH]

The Glock God's will continue to mock you until you truly make amends for your past sins.
When you are truly ready to accept Him (Gaston Almighty), contact me and I'll send you a set of Big Dots.

[ToddG]

contact me and I'll send you a set of Big Dots.

Don't make threats like that, dude. Totally not acceptable on this forum. :p

FWIW, after five days on the range using the Ameriglo idot pro w/Hackathorn front sight, I've got to say it's the perfect blend of everything that is good about notch & post sights plus the benefits claimed by the XS crowd.

[phungus_mungus]

Okay... so the question is, once you have FINALLY shooed all the gremlins and other critters out of the woodshed and this thing, the G17/4 starts to work as it should have from day one.

Are we to assume everything up until this point or discount it all?

Should it be counted against the gun,,, or not,,, hoping/assuming that Glock steps up to the plate and addresses the extractor issue in the gen. 4 guns?

:confused:

[dookie1481]

So, if one were interested in a Gen 4 9mm (because of the smaller grip), is there something to look for that would be an indicator of potential problems? I haven't really followed the whole Gen 4 saga too closely...

[phungus_mungus]

So, if one were interested in a Gen 4... is there something to look for that would be an indicator of potential problems?

Yeah, if it's a gen 4... :p

[dookie1481]

Yeah, if it's a gen 4... :p

LOL

[LittleLebowski]

So, if one were interested in a Gen 4 9mm (because of the smaller grip), is there something to look for that would be an indicator of potential problems? I haven't really followed the whole Gen 4 saga too closely...

Reread this thread and wait.

[JHC]

So, if one were interested in a Gen 4 9mm (because of the smaller grip), is there something to look for that would be an indicator of potential problems? I haven't really followed the whole Gen 4 saga too closely...

dookie, I've got 2 early 17s and 2 early 19s here. Totally "first editions" - original .40 weight RSAs, LCIs, and no counterbore on the 17s slides. Voted most likely to fail by some (phungus? LOL). And yet these guns are now 12.5K rounds stoppage free.
So I'm not sure that checking for this or that RSA etc is going to be much help.

OTOH, from following the reports of several dozen users of Gen 4s - those who had a problem, were almost always able to get their gun running. Some just a quick "break in" (just like HK P30s), others with an RSA change and now a few focusing on the extractor. A few, not so much. It's pretty easy to see how this shakes out across M4C and GT.

If a fellow was solely dependent on their next pistol purchase for critical duties, I'd suggest a Gen 3 - esp a RTF2 - might be a safer bet. But since you mentioned the SF grip size is really important plus the mag release and if you have a plan B then that might be different.

Memories seem either short or selective about similiar tweaks several of the other top pistol designs can potentially require, albeit some are so fundamental to their design that if the problem manifests, it's much harder to eliminate (sear bounce in recoil) for some guns or too early unlock leading to craptastic accuracy at distance.

[MattInFla]

So since this keeps coming up: The HK "reassembly issue" was most likely an out of spec part. The spring did not lock into the gun until it was tweaked after falling out. Too many people glossed over the details where it was explained that I installed the spring and even tugged on it to make sure it was in place properly. Then under recoil it came out. But because I had just frakked with it (and because, ironically enough, the armorer course I was given specifically skipped the removal and installation of that part because "you'll never need to worry about it"), I put the little asterisk and explained everything in detail. Folks who want to assume it was me and not the gun are certainly within their rights, and they may in fact be right. But I don't think so, which is why I counted it against the gun.

The Glock SLB thing was much more clear cut. The wrong part was in the gun.

I get it - I was just anticipating the responses....

Cheers.

[Chuck Haggard]

Since I only have the my gen 4 G17 to look at, and I don't know anybody else who owns one, what the hell does the counterbore look like?

[JV_]

Since I only have the my gen 4 G17 to look at, and I don't know anybody else who owns one, what the hell does the counterbore look like?

http://www.plaatjesupload.nl/bekijk/2011/02/07/1297069203-290.jpg

[turbolag23]

FWIW, after five days on the range using the Ameriglo idot pro w/Hackathorn front sight, I've got to say it's the perfect blend of everything that is good about notch & post sights plus the benefits claimed by the XS crowd.

Glad to hear, I had been looking at those sights when you mentioned you were putting them on the g17. Now whenever you review the CDI AIWB that will cover products I'd been looking at.

[Frank B]

.....Ameriglo idot pro w/Hackathorn front sight, I've got to say it's the perfect blend of everything that is good about notch & post sights plus the benefits claimed by the XS crowd.

I run this sight at my G23 since my trip to Culpeper,VA last year and have nothing to say, but good things.

[JV_]

I run this sight at my G23 since my trip to Culpeper,VA last year and have nothing to say, but good things.

I put a couple of rounds through Todd's gun on Saturday ... the front sight was really bright ... I liked it.

[fuse]

I put a couple of rounds through Todd's gun on Saturday ... the front sight was really bright ... I liked it.

they were very unique sights indeed. I didn't actually shoot the gun Saturday, but dry firing it I can see how they'd be very effective once one gets used to them. which shouldn't take long.

didn't help my fail of a non-press out press out, though.

[Chuck Haggard]

http://www.plaatjesupload.nl/bekijk/2011/02/07/1297069203-290.jpg

Interesting.

I won my gen 4 a year and a half ago, it's non-counterbored and has a recoil spring assembly with no markings at all, yet it works fine after a very short break-in.


Thanks for the link.


I have become a fan of the Ameriglo sights after using them for a bit. I had been running 24/7 Big Dots for some time, I think the Ameriglo sights are just as fast with better precision.

[dookie1481]

dookie, I've got 2 early 17s and 2 early 19s here. Totally "first editions" - original .40 weight RSAs, LCIs, and no counterbore on the 17s slides. Voted most likely to fail by some (phungus? LOL). And yet these guns are now 12.5K rounds stoppage free.
So I'm not sure that checking for this or that RSA etc is going to be much help.

OTOH, from following the reports of several dozen users of Gen 4s - those who had a problem, were almost always able to get their gun running. Some just a quick "break in" (just like HK P30s), others with an RSA change and now a few focusing on the extractor. A few, not so much. It's pretty easy to see how this shakes out across M4C and GT.

If a fellow was solely dependent on their next pistol purchase for critical duties, I'd suggest a Gen 3 - esp a RTF2 - might be a safer bet. But since you mentioned the SF grip size is really important plus the mag release and if you have a plan B then that might be different.

Memories seem either short or selective about similiar tweaks several of the other top pistol designs can potentially require, albeit some are so fundamental to their design that if the problem manifests, it's much harder to eliminate (sear bounce in recoil) for some guns or too early unlock leading to craptastic accuracy at distance.

JHC - Thanks and that makes sense.

[dookie1481]

Here is an interesting video with some high-speed footage of Gen 4 G19 cycling:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkHEdNx0Mk4

[MDS]

Here is an interesting video with some high-speed footage of Gen 4 G19 cycling:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkHEdNx0Mk4

Awesome video, thanks for the link. That "dribbling" ejection explains why all of the gen4's I've seen (not many, maybe 5 total) have such erratic, seemingly random ejection patterns. It seems to me that the randomness of that dribbling motion brings a certain probability of a stovepipe-type FTE. I can't imagine that you could achieve reliable ejection with that dribbling motion.

I'd love to see high-speed footage of gen4's that have gone 10K+ without issue...

[JHC]

I'm not going on Youtube yet but I'll email you a vid (9.1Mb) of shooting a stoppage free for 3K rds Gen 4 G19 with 124 grain Blazer for comparison. ;) The ejection is quite robust for training ammo.

I've seen that vid a few times. It was a good effort. And a good clue to something up with his extractor. IMO.

[MDS]

I'm not going on Youtube yet but I'll email you a vid (9.1Mb) of shooting a stoppage free for 3K rds Gen 4 G19 with 124 grain Blazer for comparison. ;) The ejection is quite robust for training ammo.

I'd love to see that video. I don't think we'll see much of the extraction cycle without specialized video equipment, though. I wonder if Todd could get someone to video his gun, with different variations of the extractor/lsb part that seems to be so critical to his gun's reliability. Maybe it's better, but still "dribbly"...?

[ToddG]

Shot 1,031 rounds tonight. Zero stoppages.

[jslaker]

I'm starting to wonder if hitting the extractor should be part of the .25 cent trigger job for Gen4 Glocks.

[turbolag23]

Shot 1,031 rounds tonight. Zero stoppages.

will this change your mind about having Glock switch your order to to the gen 3 instead of gen 4?

[ToddG]

will this change your mind about having Glock switch your order to to the gen 3 instead of gen 4?

Yes. We've already been in contact over it and they're back to sending me the gen4. Either it will work out of the box or it will get the obsolete extractor.

The only annoyance is that the new one will almost certainly have the counterbore in the spring box (what Glock calls a recessed nose ring) so they two gen4 G17s I'll have will require different recoil spring assemblies. :confused:

[TAP]

I have to say that this test just doesn't feel right. Too many variables (counterbore, extractor). I kinda wish Todd would just start over. It feels too much like an R&D test.

[JV_]

I kinda wish Todd would just start over.I understand your concern, but what do you do? Just call another mulligan? I mean ... this is his 2nd Gen 4 gun! The 19 is back at Glock.

http://pistol-training.com/archives/4508

My own Gen4 19 also had problems. At first the issue appeared to be due to improper reassembly. Then it continued to have the same type of stoppage even after the gun was put back together correctly… eight stoppages in less than 400 rounds of combined FMJ and +p JHP. So, I shipped the G19 back to Glock. After inspection, they concurred that something was in fact wrong and that a simple recoil spring replacement wouldn’t solve it. They asked to keep the pistol for further analysis and instead they would send me a new one. Due to the vagaries of Maryland law, they’re sending me a G17 instead (with my complete approval).

[TAP]

I don't know what the answer is. I'm not saying a mulligan is the answer. I'm just not sure how or what we will be able to take away from this test. To me the sample size is too small to say the extractor is definitely an issue with all G17s.

I think Glock royally screwed up the Gen 4s. I've had too many friends have issues with them (G17s, G19s).

[JHC]

Good points. OTOH, as great as my four are, it's clear that something is amiss with many copies and this excercise of TG's has dramatically more "gravitas" than similiar virtually unknown experimenters and might . . . might actually drive some factory attention and improvement.

[JV_]

We're not that far in to the test, considering he's going to 50K. If the gun runs great from here out, I think it will say a lot about the Gen 4.

[LittleLebowski]

I have to say that this test just doesn't feel right. Too many variables (counterbore, extractor). I kinda wish Todd would just start over. It feels too much like an R&D test.

The test is also shedding some sunlight on Glock as a company and how they deal with their production problems.

[ToddG]

TAP -- I understand where you're coming from. But I also see the opposite viewpoint: if we just start with another gun, that gives Glock a pass. The annual PTC test wouldn't mean much if I keep rebooting until I can get a flawless pistol from the company. When the HK P30 had an out of spec part in '09 that plagued the gun for almost 10,000 rounds (and more stoppages overall than the Glock has racked up so far), the test didn't stop and start with a new gun.

You're absolutely correct that my sample size is too small to denounce all gen4 9mm extractors. I don't think that's even remotely reasonable. If nothing else, quite a few folks run their 9mm gen4 pistols without any problem. But at the same time, between my G19, this G17, and plenty of other people who've reported problems it's clear there is a much higher incidence of failure than with the gen3 guns.

This is the gun I've got. I bought it in a store like anyone else. It had a serious problem, the problem got fixed thanks to advice from folks on the internet who'd seen the same problem... just like anyone else might do. No we're moving on.

[Prdator]

Well said Todd!!
I hope the gun runs well from here on out and This causes Glock to take a better look at there parts and how they fit.

[JConn]

I certainly hope that Glock addresses this issue promptly. I'm sure there are a fair number of people like myself how bought a new gen 3/4 with this new (read defective) extractor setup who do not have access to an older extractor. So while this fix works, many of us are left carrying and depending on weapons with a known questionable component in them.

[ToddG]

JConn -- I think it's a mistake to assume the entire extractor design is defective. Again, quite a few folks have seen great reliability from their G17 and G19 gen4 pistols. Either there was a bad batch of extractors that just happened to coincide with the gen4 pistols coming to market, or the change to the extractor design circa Jan'10 has created a situation where some extractors in some guns appear related to reliability issues.

[JConn]

Ok that makes complete sense. Sorry for the over simplification of the situation. The Glock extractor design has proven reliable, I was just led to believe a new production method had introduced slightly different tolerances. The extractor in my gen 3 19 is of the new design and shows a ton of wear. While this doesn't bother me I have had several stovepipes in the weapon's short 2000 round lifespan. I believe these to be user induced due to riding the slide stop on the last round creating a situation where there was effectively no mag in the weapon. This conversation has made me reconsider my conclusions and while I still think the stovepipes were user induced I am a strong proponent of removing negative variables from the equation. Again sorry for my misunderstanding.

[JHC]

The test is also shedding some sunlight on Glock as a company and how they deal with their production problems.

+1 Which is a fairly cloistered operation. I especially hope it can lead to improvements going forward.

But then how many years has it been and I've not heard of a M&P customer hearing from S&W CS that the root cause of his fail to reset issue that Randy Lee and David Bowie have been able to explain in detail?

Here is a non-gun analogy of a company dealing with a production problem. Might add some perspective. Maybe not.

http://www.military.com/news/article/rifle-stopping-helmet-fails-tests.html?ESRC=army-a.nl

'The president of North American operations for Ceradyne David Reed admitted his company tried to shorten the manufacturing process to push helmets to the field but added the next batch of ECHs won't have the same problem.

"This was very unfortunate," Reed told Military.com in an interview. "But we see it as a very minor bump in the road." '

'Reed said that his engineers recommended heating the helmets up to help dry the final coating of paint applied to them, but they didn't realize that increased temperatures would alter the ballistic strength of the final product.'

'But an informed source tells Military.com that some of the test helmets failed to properly stop 9mm pistol rounds'

end
The amount of testing that has to be done to done to get to "five 9's" of perfection is staggering.

[MTechnik]

I certainly hope that Glock addresses this issue promptly. I'm sure there are a fair number of people like myself how bought a new gen 3/4 with this new (read defective) extractor setup who do not have access to an older extractor. So while this fix works, many of us are left carrying and depending on weapons with a known questionable component in them.

I know that some Gen3 9mms came with the newer LCI extractors. Have they seen the same extraction 'dribbling' and associated issues that we've seen on gen 4s?

From what I've seen it is the combination of this part and gen4 9mms that SOMETIMES causes a problem.