Pretty sure I have been gripping too hard

[GJM]

Late last week, I experimented with not gripping as hard and noticed these benefits:

1) my trigger control was better and splits were faster on each target.

2) my transitions were faster.

3) it generally took less effort.

Thinking about why, I believe extra grip tension was negatively effecting my trigger control, and the extra tension was slowing and making my transitions less smooth. JJ and TPC describe ideal transitions as being able to move a full cup of water without spilling liquid.

This led to a discussion with my wife about “how much,” which is always difficult without instrumentation. Something I started to think about is setting your ideal transition speed, using the full cup example, and then using that amount of grip tension to work back as your starting point.

I realize this is highly individual, and perhaps even platform specific, but the initial results are extremely promising.

[CCT125US]

Very interesting. I applied that thinking to the amount of extension used. You wouldn't walk with a full cup at extension either since you would have no shock absorbers. Looking forward to this thread.

[Jay Cunningham]

I find this interesting, but my suspicion is that as shooters progress into the realm of highly skilled, things start to become extremely subjective.

[Clusterfrack]

I went down that path a year ago, and it’s worked out really well.

On the PSTG site, Hwansik Kim posted a very insightful analysis of how hard you need to grip, and the importance of separating grip force from wrist tension. If the gun doesn't move in your hand when it recoils, you don't need to grip any harder. Wrist must be "locked" fully though. Many people grip super hard, and think that's how to lock the wrist. But you can separate the two.

I’ve come to the conclusion that a lot of the “crush it” advice is not helpful if you have decent grip strength.

[JV_]

IMO, the problem with fixed grip strength examples, like the glass of water, is that people with much stronger hands can input a lot more force without introducing that unwanted stress that could slow you down.

There are a lot of benefits to a stronger grip when it comes to masking trigger control issues - even if it's just an intermittent one.

[Jay Cunningham]

This is a very interesting topic, and from my perspective it’s most interesting when thinking about how to approach teaching the new shooter, and then coaching the intermediate and then the advanced shooter.

[JV_]

it’s most interesting when thinking about how to approach teaching the new shooter, and then coaching the intermediate and then the advanced shooter.

Agreed. I know I've retried a few techniques that started working as my experience deepened.

[psalms144.1]

George - are you finding this improvement with less grip pressure using ALL platforms, or just the VP9 you've been running lately?

[Darth_Uno]

I find this interesting, but my suspicion is that as shooters progress into the realm of highly skilled, things start to become extremely subjective.

It’s like baseball. When you start teaching kids how to bat, it’s an always/never deal. As they get older and better, you can really start to tweak dozens of things about their stance and swing. There’s some core fundamentals that don’t change, but you could end up with a swing that’s not “by the book”.

[GJM]

George - are you finding this improvement with less grip pressure using ALL platforms, or just the VP9 you've been running lately?

Other than the MPX that I also shoot for Steel Challenge, I can’t recall having fired a round in anything but a VP9 or VP9SK in the last six weeks, so this is based on the VP9 .... for now.

JV, just to make sure we are on the same page, I am not advocating less grip strength, or suggesting that grip strength is not important, just that my using less of whatever grip strength I have is working well for me.

[YVK]

I read your thesis and I gave it a B grade.

The highest grade went to a student who explored how to continue gripping as hard as possible with a support hand without tensing up everything else.

[BigD]

Do Bill Drills with different grip pressure. The grip pressure with the fast splits and best accuracy is the one you should use. :D

This is an important but pretty basic part of shooting fast, so most competitors experiment with it early in a their career.

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If you want to dive deeper, Matt Burkett's timing drills will help.


Timing Drills – by Matt Burkett http://www.doublealpha.biz/courses-tips/matts-tips/

One of the drills that I like to do most of the time and has had the most impact on my shooting ability is a timing drill. First we should have a discussion of terminology.

Timing of the gun:
I am not referring to the actual time the mechanism takes to return to battery. I am referring to learning the timing of the gun by the shooter. Since most guns return to battery in about 5 hundredths of a second, we cannot return the gun fast enough with our conscious mind. The subconscious will return the gun to point of aim by using the appropriate amount of muscle force during recoil. You will see top shooters push down on the gun if it does something it's not supposed to do, such as hitting a bad primer and not firing. This is not a flinch. A flinch occurs before and also during the firing of the gun.

You must shoot a full magazine on every string in this drill and you must not stop and restart in the middle of a magazine. Unless there is a safety issue, shoot the entire magazine at the required splits. You must have a relaxed positive stance and grip on the gun for this to work.
The major areas this drill assists are the return of the gun under recoil, calling your shots, grip control, and solidifying the stance. If you are not using a solid forward shooting stance, you will see the gun start going out of control and the sights moving differently after about 3-5 rounds. Please refer to my previous articles for more stance information or check my website at www.mattburkett.com. You will need three targets, tape, and about 250 rounds of ammo. [for the record - I only used 100rds]

The drill:
Start out with three targets 15 yards away. Load all of your magazines. First three strings are two seconds per shot. Like a metronome, have the splits be as close to two seconds as possible. Check your split times on a timer or have another shooter help you with the drill. Two seconds per shot gives you plenty of time to shoot an extremely small group.
First string: use as light of a grip as possible on first target.
Second string: medium grip on second target.
Third string: use a heavy grip on the third target.

Now unload and review your shooting.
You shouldn't have more than about a 2” group on each target. Compare where they are impacting on the target. Is there more vertical stringing or horizontal on the different groups? Which one did you feel more comfortable with? How did the gun feel with each grip? What exactly did the sights do? Did they rise straight up under recoil? Could you even see the sights under recoil? This will show you if you have a flinch. If you can't see the sights going up and down, there is a good chance you're blinking. Figure out what grip worked best for you and use that for the rest of the drill. Tape the targets.
String four: two seconds per shot on target 1 with your new favorite grip.
String five: one second per shot on target 2.
String six: 0.5 seconds per shot on target 3.

Now unload and review your shooting.
Once again we go back and look to see where our problems are showing up. What is the group dispersion on the targets? Is there a significant difference between the groups at two seconds and at .5 seconds? How much vertical error is there with the groups? What did the sights do at the different speeds? Diagnose what is happening. If you're getting a significantly upper right lift to the sights, grip a little more with your left hand and slightly less with your right hand (assuming you're right handed). Tape the targets.
String seven: one second per shot on target one.
String eight: 0.5 per shot on target two.
String nine: 0.25 per shot on target three.

Unload and review.
How did your shooting go at this speed? Are the sights coming back naturally to the aiming point?
Critical things to remember:
The timing of the gun that you have learned is specific to that firearm and load. If you change any part or your load, rerun the timing drills because the gun itself has changed.

[GJM]

Doing it this way would have caused me to miss how grip effects transitions, which turned out to be much faster for me using less grip tension.

In terms of one target, I really like the Stoeger drill of shooting multiple iterations of two shots. Apparently Stoeger shoots like 30,00 rounds, or some ungodly number, on this one drill each year. Isn’t two shots, transition, two shots, repeat, as opposed to Bill drills the core of USPSA shooting?

[GJM]

In the weeks since I started this thread, I continue to associate my best shooting with less squeezing of my fingers and more fore aft application of pressure.

[gomerpyle]

In the weeks since I started this thread, I continue to associate my best shooting with less squeezing of my fingers and more fore aft application of pressure.
And that's with your VP9? Out of curiosity, what size panels and backstrap are you using?

[GJM]

And that's with your VP9? Out of curiosity, what size panels and backstrap are you using?

It works with everything for me, not just the VP9. It is so interesting, because “gripping hard” was settled science for me, for many years.

I use a large left panel so I can quarter panel better.

[JHC]

In the weeks since I started this thread, I continue to associate my best shooting with less squeezing of my fingers and more fore aft application of pressure.


If I'm reading to focus the effort for and aft vs full circular pressure like making the tightest fist one can make then heck yes on the fore aft. I would describe dominant hand "grip" pressure coming mostly from the middle finger and the base of the thumb working fore aft opposing each other.

[gomerpyle]

It works with everything for me, not just the VP9. It is so interesting, because “gripping hard” was settled science for me, for many years.

I use a large left panel so I can quarter panel better.

thanks for the reply:)

[Trigger]

In the weeks since I started this thread, I continue to associate my best shooting with less squeezing of my fingers and more fore aft application of pressure.

So if I understand this correctly, you are gripping fore and aft strongly with with pad at the first joint of your fingers (near where a ring is worn), and gripping with less pressure on your fingertips?

Doing this would seem to improve dexterity and trigger control, because your fingertips are less tense/compressed compared to your core grip with your finger bases. (Doctors and EMTs feel free to bludgeon me for using layman’s vice medical terms).

Because of this grip style, I have found skateboard tape fore and aft to be important, and grip panel texture to matter very little.

How much are you gripping with your support hand vs shooting hand? 70/30? 60/40? 50/50?

Thanks for the discussion.

[Port]

I shoot a couple of “micros” with bad triggers quite a bit. I notice whenever I get “sloppy” and loosen my grip, I shoot left. Shooting an under 1 lb gun with ten thousand pound triggers will do that.

On the other hand, I can shoot .38’s out of a 5” 686 with barely any grip at all, and still tag anything I like.

Gun size/weight and caliber dictate how much grip I need to be accurate. YMMV

[GJM]

So if I understand this correctly, you are gripping fore and aft strongly with with pad at the first joint of your fingers (near where a ring is worn), and gripping with less pressure on your fingertips?

Doing this would seem to improve dexterity and trigger control, because your fingertips are less tense/compressed compared to your core grip with your finger bases. (Doctors and EMTs feel free to bludgeon me for using layman’s vice medical terms).

Because of this grip style, I have found skateboard tape fore and aft to be important, and grip panel texture to matter very little.

How much are you gripping with your support hand vs shooting hand? 70/30? 60/40? 50/50?

Thanks for the discussion.

Not sure in percentage, just that it is a lot less than I used to! Yes, on using base of fingers as opposed to tips. With my support hand, I have a clamp between front strap and back of the grip, using TPC’s quarter panel method.

[UNK]

Not sure in percentage, just that it is a lot less than I used to! Yes, on using base of fingers as opposed to tips. With my support hand, I have a clamp between front strap and back of the grip, using TPC’s quarter panel method.

Maybe I'm not understanding correctly. Is what you are describing similar to a bullseye grip?

[jwhitt]

I find these discussions very subjective. As other's have eluded to in this thread the individual's experience, grip strength, gun type/weight, and ammunition will all play a role in the physics. For every platform and ammunition combination there is probably some ideal torque weight that will keep the gun as flat as necessary while allowing optimal trigger control. So shooter X, a beginner, has to grip the gun to the point of shaking to achieve this optimal pressure shooting a polymer gun at 130PF - lets say 150 lbs of torque for argument sake. Over a year, he/she develops increased grip strength (applied in the correct locations) by shooting thousands of live rounds and working up to a 300 lb CoC. Now, in order to apply that same amount of torque it requires half of the perceived grip compared to 1 year ago. Anecdotally, this results in the perception of less applied grip force with the advantage of increased trigger control. Furthermore, I find it very hard to discern grip pressure amounts applied during a stage versus practice. Grip pressures will fluctuate over a stage depending on type/size/distance of targets, strong hand/weak hand, shooting while moving, leaning, etc. I would like to hear if anyone could report how they perceived grip strength and recoil control under stress and at different targets (match, real world scenario, ect). This would make for some interesting conversation. For me, I subconsciously grip way harder during stages than practice (not necessarily a good thing - just how it goes).

[GJM]

I find these discussions very subjective. As other's have eluded to in this thread the individual's experience, grip strength, gun type/weight, and ammunition will all play a role in the physics. For every platform and ammunition combination there is probably some ideal torque weight that will keep the gun as flat as necessary while allowing optimal trigger control. So shooter X, a beginner, has to grip the gun to the point of shaking to achieve this optimal pressure shooting a polymer gun at 130PF - lets say 150 lbs of torque for argument sake. Over a year, he/she develops increased grip strength (applied in the correct locations) by shooting thousands of live rounds and working up to a 300 lb CoC. Now, in order to apply that same amount of torque it requires half of the perceived grip compared to 1 year ago. Anecdotally, this results in the perception of less applied grip force with the advantage of increased trigger control. Furthermore, I find it very hard to discern grip pressure amounts applied during a stage versus practice. Grip pressures will fluctuate over a stage depending on type/size/distance of targets, strong hand/weak hand, shooting while moving, leaning, etc. I would like to hear if anyone could report how they perceived grip strength and recoil control under stress and at different targets (match, real world scenario, ect). This would make for some interesting conversation. For me, I subconsciously grip way harder during stages than practice (not necessarily a good thing - just how it goes).

I would generally agree with much of this. However, previously I accepted it as gospel, to grip as hard as possible, and for me gripping less hard or differently is yielding better results. Just like trying more or less finger, I think it is worthwhile to experiment with how hard to grip and see how that works.

[Paul Blackburn]

One barometer if you will of grip pressure is enough to be able to train everyday for a couple hours without injuring yourself as in tennis/shooters elbow. So the amount of grip pressure/force or strength applied should be comfortable/relaxed enough to sustain for a few hours of training while still producing the speed/accuracy standard.

[scw2]

I've strongly considered testing this out given some of what I've recently heard from interviews/videos from the likes of Eric Grauffel, Rob Leatham and Hwansik. That isn't to say that crush gripping won't have good results, but it did make me wonder if there were benefits to trying it more along the lines of how you've described gripping the gun.

[gomerpyle]

I've strongly considered testing this out given some of what I've recently heard from interviews/videos from the likes of Eric Grauffel, Rob Leatham and Hwansik. That isn't to say that crush gripping won't have good results, but it did make me wonder if there were benefits to trying it more along the lines of how you've described gripping the gun.

scw2, has Rob Leatham made recent comments concerning his grip?

[scw2]

scw2, has Rob Leatham made recent comments concerning his grip?

Not very recent but there was a video maybe 1 years ago that he put it through Springfield armory. I watched it recently though which made it stand out in light of comments from hwansik and Eric which were from the second half of 2018.

Video below


https://youtu.be/xNNlb7QjfGI

[txdpd]

Sometimes when we try new things they work better because we are focusing on being fundamentally sound in order to validate the technique. When we've done the same thing hundreds of thousands of times it's hard to stay focused and not run on autopilot, even when we think we are being focused and not running on auto pilot. At the end of the day, better results are better results no matter why it's happening.

As far grip, the harder we squeeze something relative to our maximum strength, the stronger the sympathetic response from the rest of our muscles in our bodies. When we squeeze a pistol we generate isometric tension throughout the body. The harder we squeeze, the more isometric tension we generate. That’s a good thing, especially if we’re squared up to a single target. Too much can be a bad thing too. Shooters with a weak grip relative to upper body strength will experience the support hand moving away from the pistol under recoil (it’s really the opposite). Shooters with good core strength may have difficulty rotating their torsos. None of us actually stand still, and shooting at distance, the less balanced among us are going to have exaggerated compensatory postural adjustments if we get really tight.

[randyflycaster]

Great video.
Randy

[KneeShot]

In the weeks since I started this thread, I continue to associate my best shooting with less squeezing of my fingers and more fore aft application of pressure.

GJM,
I've been through TPC and apply their grip fundamentals. In relation to what you are saying here with squeezing your fingers less, are you referring too -

The strong hand C-Clamp or the support hand rear quartering?

Something Rossen (TPC instructor and CZ pro) told me about the support hand rear quartering is that he imagines he is trying to crack a walnut in between the base of his thumbs.

My current perception of what you are saying is that your C-clamp is lighter in tension and your rear quartering palm thumb bases are cracking peanut shells instead of Walnuts.

JM

[GJM]

GJM,
I've been through TPC and apply their grip fundamentals. In relation to what you are saying here with squeezing your fingers less, are you referring too -

The strong hand C-Clamp or the support hand rear quartering?

Something Rossen (TPC instructor and CZ pro) told me about the support hand rear quartering is that he imagines he is trying to crack a walnut in between the base of his thumbs.

My current perception of what you are saying is that your C-clamp is lighter in tension and your rear quartering palm thumb bases are cracking peanut shells instead of Walnuts.

JM

Less pressure with only my finger tips.

[KneeShot]

Less pressure with only my finger tips.

Strong hand or support hand finger tips!?

Again another TPC experience here - from their instructor JoAnn. She said I was squeezing my support hand finger tips too hard - evidence of the fact is that I had to put tape around my strong hand middle finger because the friction from my support hand fingers was removing skin.

I also experiment with holding the strong hand C-clamp like my finger tips were cut off and do not exist.

Strong hand finger tips, support hand fingers tips or both - in your case?

JM

[GJM]

Strong hand or support hand finger tips!?

Again another TPC experience here - from their instructor JoAnn. She said I was squeezing my support hand finger tips too hard - evidence of the fact is that I had to put tape around my strong hand middle finger because the friction from my support hand fingers was removing skin.

I also experiment with holding the strong hand C-clamp like my finger tips were cut off and do not exist.

Strong hand finger tips, support hand fingers tips or both - in your case?

JM

Both.

I am applying pressure firmly with a C clamp with my strong hand, with my suppport hand on the front strap, and the wedging against the quarter panel with my support hand.

This is likely to vary by person and platform, so don’t think what I am doing necessarily will work for you. The surprise for me, is I always assumed more was better, and it turned out not to be for me.

[Criz]

Grip type and amount are so varying from person to person and skill level to skill level.
As a coach, I make sure I see what works for this kid vs kid and try not to apply a blanket technique for everyone.
About 3k rounds into last year, I found that a my grip was on the very strong side but my follow up shots were faster.
Also, it was what was working for me at the time. I went to a class and the instructor said - watch me shoot with just my index finger and thumb.
Cool demo and the new shooters were like wow you are amazing, I went back to my strong grip and shot better than everyone there.
I have relaxed a bit for but it is fun working on varying grips and stances to increase speed and balance accuracy.
Enjoy
Criz

[gomerpyle]

Less pressure with only my finger tips.

I think this is the key point. It's not so much squeezing less hard - it's applying pressure with only the parts of the hand that is necessary, and no more. NOT involving the finger TIPS in turn isolates the trigger press. Involving the finger tips in your grip sympathetically involves the trigger finger and in turn the trigger press, leading to less dexterity in your trigger finger. The fore to aft formation in your grip isolates the trigger press by involving only what is necessary.

I think this is what TPC means by isolating the trigger press.

We in turn can then apply the nutcracker technique by then thinking of the "fore" part of the grip as the pin of the nutcracker, and the base of the thumbs as the "aft". By clam shelling, that is by applying pressure at the base of the thumbs like a nutcracker, we in turn apply pressure, which in effect tightens your grip.

To me, it's not so much squeezing hard with each hand. We need to think of the grip as not two hands each squeezing hard, but as two hands forming a nutcracker or clamshell. We should be tightening the grip by thinking of the fingers as the pin of the nutcracker and applying pressure at the base of the thumbs. The nutcracker technique tightens the grip without adversely impacting the dexterity of your trigger finger.

I dont't think you can separate trigger press from grip - I think this is the key to understanding the phrase "isolating the trigger press".