Question about "Production"

[ranger]

I am no longer an active USPSA competitor but competed for a long time - started 1986. I watch the sport evolve including adding comps, adding RDS, high cap, etc. Shot Open, Limited, and Production - finished shooting Production. When "Production" started the theme as the time was to attract new shooters with a lower cost of entry plus pistols that you can find at your LGS.

Seems like "Production" has evolved into a 9mm, 10 round capacity event dominated by pistols that the majority of shooters would not normally find at a LGS and that cost $1000+ before modifications. I realize that USPSA is a "game" and fully support that USPSA and other shooting sports have improved firearms in general - especially optics - but hate to see Production leave its roots.

[Artemas2]

Not sure what your question is exactly.

I see mostly GLocks, M&Ps, and XDs at local matches in production and Limited. As for 9MM, with the minor PF only scoring, there is not much reason to shoot any other caliber. Doubly so when Limited and Single stack cater specifically to .40s, .45s and what else

[Clusterfrack]

You can do just fine in Production with a Glock 34, and there are many other good options that won't break the bank. And for what it is, a CZ Shadow2 is a steal at $1100. Compare that with $4k+ to shoot Open...

[olstyn]

You can do just fine in Production with a Glock 34, and there are many other good options that won't break the bank.

Hell, you can do just fine with a G19 or G17. Maybe to compete at the highest levels, you need something special, but certainly not to get started.


And for what it is, a CZ Shadow2 is a steal at $1100. Compare that with $4k+ to shoot Open...

I shot a friend's Shadow once. It was super nice, but I just can't get over the manual decocking procedure required. It always strikes me as an extra opportunity to DQ *and* injure oneself at the same time that just isn't present on DA/SA pistols with decocking levers/switches/buttons, and of course the manual safety is entirely irrelevant in Production; all it serves to do in that role is provide an opportunity to accidentally have the gun not go bang when you want it to. It would be nice if somebody at CZ could crack the code of getting a good trigger out of the CZ-75BD and translating that into a decocker version of the Shadow/Shadow2. I still wouldn't be able to justify purchasing one, but I'd at least be able to justify *wanting* one. :)

[ranger]

I was looking at a thread about the guns used at the recent Production Nationals.

[ranger]

You can do just fine in Production with a Glock 34, and there are many other good options that won't break the bank. And for what it is, a CZ Shadow2 is a steal at $1100. Compare that with $4k+ to shoot Open...

No doubt the Shadow2 is awesome. I guess that is my point - Open =$4k, Limited = $2+k, and now Production = $1+K?

[olstyn]

I see mostly GLocks, M&Ps, and XDs at local matches in production and Limited. As for 9MM, with the minor PF only scoring, there is not much reason to shoot any other caliber.

I guess there might be some efficacy to loading 135- or 165-grain .40 to minor and using it for the slightly bigger holes, assuming you could get a .40 gun to run properly at 130-135 PF. You'd be marginally more likely to catch the perf dividing scoring zones that way. It's not like the mag capacity disadvantage .40 normally suffers from vs 9mm matters in Production since you can't load more than 10. I expect it would cost more to load per round than 9mm, though, so...?

I'm certainly not about to buy a .40 gun and set of reloading dies just to try to figure it out.

[olstyn]

and now Production = $1+K?

Even at the very highest level of competition in Production division, there is still a significant fraction of competitors shooting the G34 and the Walther Q5, which both come in well under $1K. I don't think anybody is debating that USPSA is an expensive sport to get into in general, but anybody who is competing at the level where shooting a Tanfo or a Shadow/Shadow 2 *might* make the difference between placing highly and not doing well is spending WAY more money on plane tickets, hotels, match fees, and ammo than on the 2-3 identical copies of their chosen gun that they have.

[BigD]

I wonder if people that don’t compete in curling go on curling forums and complain about how that sport has evolved.

Also, someone tell Vogel and Coley they can’t be competitive without a CZ.

[Clusterfrack]

You don't want to be frustrated just starting out. It depends on how your matches are set up. If you're likely to see 25+ yd mini poppers and the like, I'd recommend a gun you can shoot confidently. If that's a G19, good on you. But, I've seen quite a few very frustrated U and D class shooters trying to make their compacts work for Production. Of course, a lot of that is skill, but bigger guns are easier to shoot well.

About decocking a CZ with your finger: it's not a big deal. Just get someone to show you how to do it right (stick index finger with pad toward hammer in between hammer and firing pin, rotate finger to ease hammer down). I've done it and seen it done 1000's of times and have never seen an ND.

A decocker adds complexity where it is not needed. I would never use one for competition.

The safety is a bigger concern. I had mine go on at Area 1 Championship last year, and it cost me a lot of time. I have now installed DS Perman extra-power safety springs (http://dsperman.com/products/CZSpring/CZSpring.html) and the problem is solved.


Hell, you can do just fine with a G19 or G17. Maybe to compete at the highest levels, you need something special, but certainly not to get started.

I shot a friend's Shadow once. It was super nice, but I just can't get over the manual decocking procedure required. It always strikes me as an extra opportunity to DQ *and* injure oneself at the same time that just isn't present on DA/SA pistols with decocking levers/switches/buttons, and of course the manual safety is entirely irrelevant in Production; all it serves to do in that role is provide an opportunity to accidentally have the gun not go bang when you want it to. It would be nice if somebody at CZ could crack the code of getting a good trigger out of the CZ-75BD and translating that into a decocker version of the Shadow/Shadow2. I still wouldn't be able to justify purchasing one, but I'd at least be able to justify *wanting* one. :)

[RJ]

You don't want to be frustrated just starting out. It depends on how your matches are set up. If you're likely to see 25+ yd mini poppers and the like, I'd recommend a gun you can shoot confidently. If that's a G19, good on you. But, I've seen quite a few very frustrated U and D class shooters trying to make their compacts work for Production. Of course, a lot of that is skill, but bigger guns are easier to shoot well.



I've thought about buying a G17. But I'm a size M guy, so a Glock 19 is like a "full size" gun to me, compared to guys with bigger hands. I don't feel like the 19 is holding me back from moving out of D class, to be honest. I'm more worried about getting A's faster. I know my gun will shoot a 1" square at 7 yards if I do my job.

I will say this year is the first year I'm tinkering with it. Especially since I learned how easy it is to detail strip a Glock, so taking the gun apart and putting it back together is fairly straightforward. So much so, that you start to think, well, what if I changed just this one part.... That's probably how I ended up buying OEM extended mag release, and a 4.5 lb striker spring, and an Overwatch Flat Face Trigger is on the way to me as well. My G19.5 was $425 using a GSSF coupon, and the bits and pieces are maybe $150 or so.

But it's fun and if I perceive some value in it, why not.

But spending mucho dollars on a gun over $1k, for me to shoot Production? That would be nuts.

[olstyn]

bigger guns are easier to shoot well.

No argument there, but if all a person has is a G26 or equivalent and they can't afford (or are unwilling) to buy a bigger gun right away, they shouldn't let that stop them from getting into the sport.


About decocking a CZ with your finger: it's not a big deal. Just get someone to show you how to do it right (stick index finger with pad toward hammer in between hammer and firing pin, rotate finger to ease hammer down). I've done it and seen it done 1000's of times and have never seen an ND.

A decocker adds complexity where it is not needed. I would never use one for competition.

I've never seen an ND having watched a lot of people decock a CZ manually either, but that doesn't make it impossible, and in my view, human error is more likely than mechanical failure, so I guess I'll have to agree to disagree with you on this point.

[spinmove_]

A Shadow 2 or a Tanfo Stock 2 is definitely not required to do well in Production. I’ve got my own reasons for switching from Glock to CZ, but it’s definitely not because I shoot them better. In fact, I’ll be doing the Production thing for a little while with a P-09 or two. $475 a piece, install some Dawson sights each, and maybe some skateboard tape grips and I’m good to go. 9mm is as cheap as ever right now.

If you want to shoot .40 or .45 in Production, no one is stopping you, but you’re still relegated to minor scoring. If you want to shoot a box stock G17, go nuts. If you want to shoot a box stock Hi-Point, go nuts. But at the end of the day, it is a game, and most people typically want to make things as optimal as possible for them because it is a game. In Production that typically means sights of your choice, a trigger job, maybe tweak a couple springs, and making the thing a bit grippier to hold on to. Hardly super gamey, hardly all that expensive, and quite a far cry from a full blown custom 2011 with $75 magazines.


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[littlejerry]

While I understand there may be sticker shock for a $1000+ production pistol, realize that these guys at the top are shooting over 10,000 rounds a year in most cases. The initial investment in a $1000 comp gun is nothing relative to the ammo, match fees, range fees, and travel expenses.

Of course plenty of guys are still competitive with basic G34s.

[rob_s]

Any new shooter that shows up at a first match, or their 10th match, or 20th, that thinks the problem is their Glock 19 is wrong.

[GJM]

I continue to see an ever fewer number of Production shooters at the matches I attend. Same for single stack. Revolver is now almost a curiosity at USPSA.

The new divisions, PCC and Carry Optics, are increasingly popular, and the game has become 140mm magazines or longer in terms of the flow of stages. Most of my Production shooting friends are now shooting CO or Limited, or in the process of transitioning that way.

[Bucky]

Some random responses, too lazy to quote.

1. Production is very popular in my area, usually 1rst or second most populated division.

2. Use of Glocks have dropped significantly in the past 5 years. Many CZs and Tanfos at out local matches.

3. Regarding other calibers, I’ve probably run more .40 minor than 9mm through my polymer production guns (Glock, XD, and M&P). Properly loaded, I find the recoil softer and the round more accurate than their 9mm counterparts. Also not long ago, NJ was a 15 round state, so using a .40 meant using normal mags versus neutered mags.

4. Also over the past 5 or so years, I’ve seen the matches get much more accuracy intensive. This is where I feel I get the most out of the Shadow 2. For me, it’s easier to clear a plate rack at 20+ yards with a Shadow 2 than a Glock 34 (especially pre-Gen 5).

5. Conversations on line has shown that your match experience can vary greatly depending on where you’re located.

6. YMMV. ;)

[ST911]

A couple of questions...



2. Use of Glocks have dropped significantly in the past 5 years. Many CZs and Tanfos at out local matches.

What's driving that? Are they seeking and realizing a performance change, or are they following the herd?


4. Also over the past 5 or so years, I’ve seen the matches get much more accuracy intensive. This is where I feel I get the most out of the Shadow 2. For me, it’s easier to clear a plate rack at 20+ yards with a Shadow 2 than a Glock 34 (especially pre-Gen 5).

Why do you think this is?

[GJM]

In my travels, there are two main groups of Production shooters. New shooters and Stoeger fan boys mostly with their mags bullets out.

Now that Cheby has gone Limited, all we need is Ben to go full time Limited and Production will be relegated to IDPA types. :p

[Bucky]

A couple of questions...

What's driving that? Are they seeking and realizing a performance change, or are they following the herd?

Why do you think this is?

Heavier guns mitigate recoil better. After the first DA pull, triggers are near 1911 quality. CZs also are inherently much more accurate than Glocks, at least prior to Gen 5s.

People are quick to say, well shooter X with a Glock can beat you with your CZ. The question should be, can you with a CZ beat you with a Glock. When I got my Shadow 2, I was originally going to sell it. I didn’t like the way it felt in my hand. The curiosity in me said I had to shoot at least one match with it before I sold it. After shooting said match, not only did I keep it, I bought a second one.

As for matches becoming more accurate, many match directors go to nationals, and try to emulate what they see there.

[BigT]

FWIW outside the US in IPSC Production is the biggest division by far. While there are lots of Shadows and Tanfos there are a reasonanle number of other guns. And with our new rules I expect the other guns to gain in popularity at least a bit. That said there is a degree of fashion and follow the leader and if someone wins a world shoot or at a local level with a Arsenal Strike One or whatever you can expect to see an increase in the number of those being used.

I see the same in idpa. Lots of guys with Shadows who would've been better served continuing to compete with their G19 and learning how to shoot it better before they tried to buy skill

[olstyn]

FWIW outside the US in IPSC Production is the biggest division by far.

IPSC Production is a different animal than USPSA Production, though - the capacity limit is 15 instead of 10. If Production here allowed 15 rounds, I probably wouldn't dabble in shooting Limited with my Production gun in my winter indoor outlaw league.

[GJM]

As a general rule, it is the shooter not hardware that determines the outcome of matches. There are two big exceptions though, major scoring and magazine capacity. If Production had a 140mm magazine limitation, I would feel completely different about it.

[BigT]

IPSC Production is a different animal than USPSA Production, though - the capacity limit is 15 instead of 10. If Production here allowed 15 rounds, I probably wouldn't dabble in shooting Limited with my Production gun in my winter indoor outlaw league.


Yeah honestly if I had to shoot a 10 shot gun in competition it would be a 1911

[Clusterfrack]

In my travels, there are two main groups of Production shooters. New shooters and Stoeger fan boys mostly with their mags bullets out.
Now that Cheby has gone Limited, all we need is Ben to go full time Limited and Production will be relegated to IDPA types. :p

You need to travel more :D. My bullets are and will always be forward...

I still think Production is the best game in USPSA. IMO, the two biggest differences in our game are Major vs. Minor scoring and Irons vs. Optics. Magazine capacity isn't that big a deal. Personally, I like the added strategy and risk of 10 round mags in Production.

I could be perfectly happy if USPSA had only four divisions:

Production
Limited
CO
Open

[cheby]

1. Glock is definitely on decline in USPSA. According to the equipment survey of 2018 Nationals: In Production - CZ - 48%, Tanfo - 20%. Glock is 11%. The gun that dominated the market share for so long is now down to %11!
https://uspsa.org/magazine/view//2019-00#page=40.

2. Production is on decline in many areas not only by the total number of the participants but more importantly , by where the new shooter/talents are starting out. For the last couple years, all new blood I see came to CO and Open, It used to be Production. As matter of fact the biggest heat right now is in Open. Don't get me wrong, I think Production is a cool game, but the undeniable fact is timmies and people who did not want to mess with reloading their ammo do not enter the sport through Production any more. That should tell us something about the future. The increasing political pressure, on the other hand, could be a major factor here. If more states are restricted to the 10rd mags, it would have an impact on the sport.

3. The cost of the guns are the least relevant factor in this sport if you want to be competitive. Ammo cost is. If you do not want to be competitive, it does not matter what division and gun you shoot. Get your P30LEM (Sorry, I had to troll the p-f timmies :)) and go shoot Open and have fun. Nothing wrong with that. I am not saying it's impossible to be competitive with a Glock. Glock is a great Production pistol.... With the modified trigger and extra weight attached if you want to go full Vogel and shoot limited with it. What I am saying is the price of your competition gun is nothing compared to other cost. Do not make your decision based on money

4. It is an interesting discussion about Limited vs Open vs Production and how different divisions could help us to be more rounded shooters and develop different skills. I think it is outside of the scope of thread though.

[GJM]

Magazine capacity isn't that big a deal.

Tell me what you mean by this.

[Clusterfrack]

Tell me what you mean by this.

I wasn't very clear. Here's the way I see it: Major vs. Minor scoring is the biggest difference in USPSA divisions because the targets are effectively a different size, so strategy ends up being very different.

A red dot optic makes a pretty big difference too. I've heard some people say that if you're good enough with irons, it's not that big a difference, but I don't agree. It really speeds up how fast you can take very difficult shots, so strategy again ends up being quite different.

I don't think 15 vs 10 round mags makes that huge a difference in strategy. But 20-30+ rounds vs. 10 changes the game in a big way because the time penalty for a miss is much lower. Consider how we approach a 15yd mini popper:
10 round mags: be careful and hit the target on the first shot.
21 round mags: shoot it on the move and if you miss a couple of times it's not that bad.

So, 4 divisions don't quite cover the range, but I think that's what we should have.

Open (Major/Optics/HiCap)
Limited (Major/Irons/HiCap)
CO (Minor/Optics/HiCap)
Production (Minor/Irons/LowCap)

[BigT]

10 and 15 makes pretty big difference in strategy.

15 round Production shooters take a much closer approach to Standard (Limited) shooters than they do to Classic (SS). 50 % more capacity is huge. Allows for a lot more shooting on the move , more risk and more aggression.

Classic shooters have very different stage plans in IPSC to Production shooters, who have pretty similar stage plans to Standard shooters

[GJM]

I wasn't very clear. Here's the way I see it: Major vs. Minor scoring is the biggest difference in USPSA divisions because the targets are effectively a different size, so strategy ends up being very different.

A red dot optic makes a pretty big difference too. I've heard some people say that if you're good enough with irons, it's not that big a difference, but I don't agree. It really speeds up how fast you can take very difficult shots, so strategy again ends up being quite different.

I don't think 15 vs 10 round mags makes that huge a difference in strategy. But 20-30+ rounds vs. 10 changes the game in a big way because the time penalty for a miss is much lower. Consider how we approach a 15yd mini popper:
10 round mags: be careful and hit the target on the first shot.
21 round mags: shoot it on the move and if you miss a couple of times it's not that bad.

So, 4 divisions don't quite cover the range, but I think that's what we should have.

Open (Major/Optics/HiCap)
Limited (Major/Irons/HiCap)
CO (Minor/Optics/HiCap)
Production (Minor/Irons/LowCap)

The shooting on the move part is what I see as the biggest difference between 10 and 140mm and completely changes the game for me. Ten means shoot and reload as you move, where 140mm means never stop moving.

Fifteen is weak sauce, as it mostly just gives you extra make up shots but the ability to shoot multiple arrays without reloading. We have frequent 40+ round stages in AZ, and ten rounds is tedious for that kind of shooting.

[Clusterfrack]

The shooting on the move part is what I see as the biggest difference between 10 and 140mm and completely changes the game for me. Ten means shoot and reload as you move, where 140mm means never stop moving.

Fifteen is weak sauce, as it mostly just gives you extra make up shots but the ability to shoot multiple arrays without reloading. We have frequent 40+ round stages in AZ, and ten rounds is tedious for that kind of shooting.

I know AZ folks like to play by their own rules [emoji3]... but

1.2.1.3 Long Courses–In Level III or higher matches must not require more than 32 rounds to complete.

[GJM]

1.2.1.3 Long Courses–In Level III or higher matches must not require more than 32 rounds to complete.

I shoot a match almost every weekend, and at most a handful of level three matches a year. In AZ, high round count matches are the norm at the clubs I shoot at.

[olstyn]

I know AZ folks like to play by their own rules [emoji3]... but

1.2.1.3 Long Courses–In Level III or higher matches must not require more than 32 rounds to complete.

The VAST majority of matches are Level I, and the majority of non-Level I matches are Level II, so that rule almost might as well not exist outside of things like Nationals.

[Clusterfrack]

You guys are a bunch of hosers [emoji6]

[cheby]

I don't think shooting on the move has anything to do with how many rounds the course of fire is.
Regarding Major vs Minor scoring. The points matter under major scoring as well. You compete against the shooters who shoot major. I keep hearing that Cs don't matter under major scoring. That's wrong. You do have to be faster shooting major though, which is good.

[Bucky]

I don't think 15 vs 10 round mags makes that huge a difference in strategy. But 20-30+ rounds vs. 10 changes the game in a big way because the time penalty for a miss is much lower. Consider how we approach a 15yd mini popper:


Admittedly a lot of it depends on stage design, but overall I think it makes more of a difference than you may imagine. First off, even though the spirit of the sport is suppose to be "8 round neutral", I think many have it in their head that it's suppose to be "10 round neutral". Then there are other stage designers that don't care and will force 12 rounds from a single position.

Believe it or not, I have had first hand experience with this very scenario. A few years back, USPSA implemented a rule change that matches had to abide by state magazine capacity laws. From that time up until 2018, I essentially had a choice between Limited 10 and Limited 15 (regular limited, but capacity restricted based on state law). For the NJ matches, I have done both the L10 and L15 game. At the matches I attended, that 5 rounds made more of a difference than you might imagine. Of course, things vary greatly depending on location, but YMMV.

[olstyn]

Regarding Major vs Minor scoring. The points matter under major scoring as well. You compete against the shooters who shoot major. I keep hearing that Cs don't matter under major scoring. That's wrong.

It's a bit of hyperbole, but it's not completely wrong. In Limited, there is frequently a mix of shooters running both major and minor. Major shooters can have twice as many C hits for the same score as minor shooters, so they can afford to be sloppier, which often translates to faster. It's definitely a significant advantage.

[cheby]

Magazine capacity isn't that big a deal.


When we practice something, it's helpful to isolate it and focus on it. Excluding reloads helps you to think about the flow movement through the stage. So the magazine capacity is kind of important

[cheby]

It's a bit of hyperbole, but it's not completely wrong. In Limited, there is frequently a mix of shooters running both major and minor. Major shooters can have twice as many C hits for the same score as minor shooters, so they can afford to be sloppier, which often translates to faster. It's definitely a significant advantage.

Yes, when you compare minor and major shooting within one division. The thing is except very few, people shooting minor in limited are not competitive to begin with.

[Clusterfrack]

All this shows what an awesome game USPSA is. Hit factor scoring makes it that way.

[cheby]

All this shows what an awesome game USPSA is. Hit factor scoring makes it that way.

Yes, hit factor is awesome.

[olstyn]

Then there are other stage designers that don't care and will force 12 rounds from a single position.

That would seem to be a violation of 1.2.1.1, 1.2.1.2, or 1.2.1.3 as appropriate for the length of course.

[RJ]

I'm signed up for a local (stage I? its the lowest level, anyway) match next Sunday in Brooksville FL.

There are 61 entries registered, breaking out like this:

Carry Optics 14, 23.0%
Limited 13, 21.3%
Open 13, 21.3%
Pcc 9, 14.8%
Production, 10 16.4%
Revolver 1, 1.6%
Single Stack 1, 1.6%

FWIW.

[cheby]

I'm signed up for a local (stage I? its the lowest level, anyway) match next Sunday in Brooksville FL.

There are 61 entries registered, breaking out like this:

Carry Optics 14, 23.0%
Limited 13, 21.3%
Open 13, 21.3%
Pcc 9, 14.8%
Production, 10 16.4%
Revolver 1, 1.6%
Single Stack 1, 1.6%

FWIW.

Typical.

[45dotACP]

I thought all the top guys hated carry optics and PCC and said they'd never make it past provisional division status?

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[cheby]

They were mistaken obviously.

[Bucky]

That would seem to be a violation of 1.2.1.1, 1.2.1.2, or 1.2.1.3 as appropriate for the length of course.

Well, I couldn’t have quoted the rule numbers, but knew it wasn’t right. ;)

[olstyn]

Well, I couldn’t have quoted the rule numbers, but knew it wasn’t right. ;)

I only knew the rule #s because I had to look it up to be sure I was correct. :)

[Clusterfrack]

I'm signed up for a local (stage I? its the lowest level, anyway) match next Sunday in Brooksville FL.

There are 61 entries registered, breaking out like this:

Carry Optics 14, 23.0%
Limited 13, 21.3%
Open 13, 21.3%
Pcc 9, 14.8%
Production, 10 16.4%
Revolver 1, 1.6%
Single Stack 1, 1.6%

FWIW.

The proliferation of divisions means that there aren't as many in each one at local matches. The main reason I shoot locals is to practice for major matches. It's nice when there's at least one other M/GM Production shooter to compete against, but it really doesn't matter to me. We could get rid of Lim10 and Revolver. I'm guessing some folks would complain bitterly if we eliminated Single Stack, and the Major or Minor option does make that division kind of cool.

I'm not sure PCC really belongs in USPSA, but people are having fun with it. A bunch of people are making M and GM in PCC who aren't competitive in A or M class in any pistol division. Not really a problem-- it just makes B and C class shooters happy when they beat them.

[GJM]

Carry Optics seems to be growing like crazy lately. Couple friends who are haters call it GeriOptics.

[cheby]

PCC is so lame

[Clusterfrack]

Carry Optics seems to be growing like crazy lately. Couple friends who are haters call it GeriOptics.

That's funny. It does look like fun. Actually, I'm going to give it a try. Springer Precision is in the process of making me a Carry Optics Shadow2. I got a pro-deal on a couple of Sig Romeo 1's. I'm definitely not planning on abandoning Production, and it will be nice to have virtually identical guns for both divisions.

[bofe954]

That's funny. It does look like fun. Actually, I'm going to give it a try. Springer Precision is in the process of making me a Carry Optics Shadow2. I got a pro-deal on a couple of Sig Romeo 1's. I'm definitely not planning on abandoning Production, and it will be nice to have virtually identical guns for both divisions.

I'm building one too. I always wanted to see what I could learn from a dot. I have astigmatism so I'm afraid it may suck for me, and I never wanted to spend 5K on a open gun and all the other stuff. I figure this way if I hate it I'll just lose a few hundred when I sell the pistol, or buy another slide.

[GJM]

That's funny. It does look like fun. Actually, I'm going to give it a try. Springer Precision is in the process of making me a Carry Optics Shadow2. I got a pro-deal on a couple of Sig Romeo 1's. I'm definitely not planning on abandoning Production, and it will be nice to have virtually identical guns for both divisions.

Hope your Romeo 1 experience is better than my friend, Rich’s experience with two on 320 X5 pistols. Both broke quickly. What was so bad was there failure mode — dot looked fine but zero moved. With the DP pro, zero is solid and the failure mode is no dot, which is obvious.

[cheby]

I went through 4 delta points on my shadow slide shooting just 1k rds. I decided to go Open instead after that.

[GJM]

I went through 4 delta points on my shadow slide shooting just 1k rds. I decided to go Open instead after that.

Something odd had to be going on, as my friend Rich broke eight Pros at an average of 10,000 rounds a failure, and 22,000 on his highest round count Pro. I think I have broken ten or eleven, but that is over a longer period and now two CO shooters.

Regardless, I would take no dot over a failure mode where the zero moves.

[Clusterfrack]

Hope your Romeo 1 experience is better than my friend, Rich’s experience with two on 320 X5 pistols. Both broke quickly. What was so bad was there failure mode — dot looked fine but zero moved. With the DP pro, zero is solid and the failure mode is no dot, which is obvious.

I hope so too. Keith Tyler (https://shooterssummit.com/speaker/keith-tyler/) is a friend of mine, and he's had very good luck with the Romeo 1 6moa units. There's also the advantage of their being an ounce lighter than the DP.

If the CO gear is too annoyingly unreliable, I'll bail on it. I have no patience for guns that don't work.

[bofe954]

Hope your Romeo 1 experience is better than my friend, Rich’s experience with two on 320 X5 pistols. Both broke quickly. What was so bad was there failure mode — dot looked fine but zero moved. With the DP pro, zero is solid and the failure mode is no dot, which is obvious.

I'm trying the Romeo as well. Plan is to use the CZC plates though so I can change my mounting plate if I have to. May also do the "one on the gun, one at sig getting replaced, one in the bag" plan with the dot. Vortex would probably be my next plan. The failure mode is good info though.

[Jim Watson]

I am in a pretty small pond here, but I keep hearing and reading the experienced shooters telling the new shooters to load up their glock* magazines and shoot Limited Minor instead of Production. That way they will be able to focus on other things besides reload planning.

*Definition, "glock": A pistol with plastic receiver and striker fired ignition. Examples made by Glock, Smith & Wesson, SA XD, Walther, HK, etc.

[Clusterfrack]

I am in a pretty small pond here, but I keep hearing and reading the experienced shooters telling the new shooters to load up their glock* magazines and shoot Limited Minor instead of Production. That way they will be able to focus on other things besides reload planning.

*Definition, "glock": A pistol with plastic receiver and striker fired ignition. Examples made by Glock, Smith & Wesson, SA XD, Walther, HK, etc.

That's not bad advice for the first couple of matches. Stage planning and execution can be a bit overwhelming at first. But, I've seen and helped many new shooters start in Production without major problems. A slide lock reload isn't the end of the world.

The most important thing is to stay safe and have fun. Tell your ego to take a vacation.

[rob_s]

I am in a pretty small pond here, but I keep hearing and reading the experienced shooters telling the new shooters to load up their glock* magazines and shoot Limited Minor instead of Production. That way they will be able to focus on other things besides reload planning.

That's what I initially did, although for me it was because:tactical and I thought I was practicing for a gunfight. Once I got over that fantasy and also started to understand the scoring, Production became more interesting to me.

it sounds from this thread though like the gun hipsters may be on to bigger and better things now that Production has become well populated and competitive. The folks that are currently chasing a small pond win in CO and PCC will have to eventually find something new.

Eventually I predict there will be a resurgence of single stack when people realize there's relatively few shooters there, many are older, and it's easier to get a win.

[Clusterfrack]

That's what I initially did, although for me it was because:tactical and I thought I was practicing for a gunfight. Once I got over that fantasy and also started to understand the scoring, Production became more interesting to me.

it sounds from this thread though like the gun hipsters may be on to bigger and better things now that Production has become well populated and competitive. The folks that are currently chasing a small pond win in CO and PCC will have to eventually find something new.

Eventually I predict there will be a resurgence of single stack when people realize there's relatively few shooters there, many are older, and it's easier to get a win.

^^^Boom! :D

You're not wrong. Although the two Production M's at my club that are now shooting Lim and Open are in search of further skill-development. It's hard to argue that those divisions are a soft win. I'm still fighting it out for match wins with a Production GM and a M (GM in Open), so there's a bit of competition left here.

But at the Sectionals, Areas, and Nats, there's plenty of competition and always will be.

[jetfire]

The other thing to bear in mind is that people like doing things that reward them, so the people who started during the big production boom 5-7 years ago have now probably reached their level cap in Production unless they want to invest SERIOUS time and effort to start getting those 0.5% gains. So jumping into another division gives them that quick fix of "oh yeah this is fun and new."

[Sal Picante]

So... What the OP's question again?

Here's my answer: just shut up and load up your glock and enjoy shooting.

;)

[Peally]

Les is a wise man. It's still 100% possible to shoot production with a stock handgun and place fine (AKA win majors since "fine" is relative). Outside of new sights my VP9 is factory and will easily net me GM if I don't shoot like shit.

There is a huge popular belief in shooting that gear significantly affects skill, and it's fucking obnoxious that that belief is still around. But it'll continue being around forever since 95% of USPSA shooters are just into it because "guns are cool" instead of "practicing and being competent is cool" and that epiphany will just never have a chance to pop in their minds.

Load up and fuggin shoot and don't worry about it is the best advice ever.

[Sal Picante]

BTW - if you want to see a Production shooter shred with a stock glock (I think he just still uses the stock sights...), check out Eric Kamps...

p/BsRkygjnmuG

He's "ok"...

[cheby]

it sounds from this thread though like the gun hipsters may be on to bigger and better things now that Production has become well populated and competitive. The folks that are currently chasing a small pond win in CO and PCC will have to eventually find something new.

Eventually I predict there will be a resurgence of single stack when people realize there's relatively few shooters there, many are older, and it's easier to get a win.

The reality is quite opposite. Production is what is becoming less populated and competitive. Unfortunately....
Open and CO are increasingly more and more popular. At least locally.

[Bucky]

November match I shot (no state mag restrictions):

Production 28
Limited 28
Open 22
Carry Optics 14
PCC 9
Single Stack 6
L10 3
Revolver 3

A smaller match I shot in December in 10 round state
Production 15
CO 13
Open 12
L10 11
Limited 10
Single Stack 5
PCC 3
Revolver 2

[cheby]

November match I shot (no state mag restrictions):

Production 28
Limited 28
Open 22
Carry Optics 14
PCC 9
Single Stack 6
L10 3
Revolver 3

A smaller match I shot in December in 10 round state
Production 15
CO 13
Open 12
L10 11
Limited 10
Single Stack 5
PCC 3
Revolver 2

Well, looks like in your area it is different. Good!

[Leroy]

What is going on at local level shooting events of USPSA and IDPA is fairly meaninglessness in the grand scheme of things for that organization. You can gauge your skill against certain local performers and such but you will have no idea where your real competitive level is until you hit up a stacked regional or go to Nationals. Measurement of consistency and well rounded shooting ability rarely happens at the local or state level. Lots of people win locals and then get crushed at major events in a deep field of competition.

[BigD]

The reality is quite opposite. Production is what is becoming less populated and competitive. Unfortunately....
Open and CO are increasingly more and more popular. At least locally.

That's exactly what Rob_S is predicting. People are moving out of Production to get wins in the small pond of CO. And when CO gets too competitive, they will 'hide' in Single Stack. I personally doubt that, since winning Single Stack will always be the equivalent of being the tallest midget.

[GJM]

That's what I initially did, although for me it was because:tactical and I thought I was practicing for a gunfight. Once I got over that fantasy and also started to understand the scoring, Production became more interesting to me.

it sounds from this thread though like the gun hipsters may be on to bigger and better things now that Production has become well populated and competitive. The folks that are currently chasing a small pond win in CO and PCC will have to eventually find something new.

Eventually I predict there will be a resurgence of single stack when people realize there's relatively few shooters there, many are older, and it's easier to get a win.

Rob, I wonder if you actually shoot USPSA, because you have no idea what you are talking about.

Here is the registration so far for Area One.

33998

As you can see there are more M, A, B, C and and D shooters signed up in Carry Optics that each of those classes in Production. 94 shooters in CO vs 66 in Production. There are fewer GMs in CO, but there are very few CO GMs nationwide. CO has always been much harder to get highly classified in than any other division. If you are looking for an easy classification, CO is not it. Production has always had the most Grandbaggers of any division. Carry Optics shooters are looking for how they stack up in HOA, not trying to win trophies like the Limited 10 guys. In Arizona and Montana, based on my observation in the last year, Production is where you go when you want a soft win, because all the competition is elsewhere.

[Peally]

This thread has run its course.

[Zincwarrior]

That's exactly what Rob_S is predicting. People are moving out of Production to get wins in the small pond of CO. And when CO gets too competitive, they will 'hide' in Single Stack. I personally doubt that, since winning Single Stack will always be the equivalent of being the tallest midget.

At the local level I see that but also older gents shooting CO because of eyesight. I have been contemplating such myself.

[BigD]

CO has always been much harder to get highly classified in than any other division. If you are looking for an easy classification, CO is not it.

Why would this be? Were the high hit factors not set by actual competitors shooting classifiers?

[Clusterfrack]

We have some very strong competition in CO here.

And some heavy hitters in Single Stack.

But, really it doesn’t matter at the local level so let’s not get too bent out of shape arguing about it.

[spinmove_]

Who cares about how many people are shooting XYZ division locally? The sport hasn’t reached the saturation point vs the general populace for that to even be close to mattering. Just go shoot the matches, have fun, and get better. Worry about who is shooting what at the Area and National levels when you get there. Worry is probably the wrong word. Maybe “be aware of” is more appropriate.


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[Sal Picante]

Who cares about how many people are shooting XYZ division locally? The sport hasn’t reached the saturation point vs the general populace for that to even be close to mattering. Just go shoot the matches, have fun, and get better. Worry about who is shooting what at the Area and National levels when you get there. Worry is probably the wrong word. Maybe “be aware of” is more appropriate.


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^^ This. So much this...

1.) You can't account for who shows up
2.) You can't account for what stage is setup

You know what you can account for? Your ability to perform.

Go. Shoot. Have fun... Load up that Glock until you decide you want to play the game, then learn to love and enjoy the game...

[rob_s]

Rob, I wonder if you actually shoot USPSA, because you have no idea what you are talking about.

Here is the registration so far for Area One.

As you can see there are more M, A, B, C and and D shooters signed up in Carry Optics that each of those classes in Production. 94 shooters in CO vs 66 in Production. There are fewer GMs in CO, but there are very few CO GMs nationwide. CO has always been much harder to get highly classified in than any other division. If you are looking for an easy classification, CO is not it. Production has always had the most Grandbaggers of any division. Carry Optics shooters are looking for how they stack up in HOA, not trying to win trophies like the Limited 10 guys. In Arizona and Montana, based on my observation in the last year, Production is where you go when you want a soft win, because all the competition is elsewhere.

and I wonder if you speak English, because you have no idea what I wrote.

[Jim Watson]

Eventually I predict there will be a resurgence of single stack when people realize there's relatively few shooters there, many are older, and it's easier to get a win.

I am one of those older shooters, and if you get your jollies by beating me, have at it. I have lost a lot of speed and some accuracy over the past 5-10 years and am not a real challenge to the young whippersnappers. But I recently bought a 2011 so you can't run to single stack to do it.

[Artemas2]

I am one of those older shooters, and if you get your jollies by beating me, have at it. I have lost a lot of speed and some accuracy over the past 5-10 years and am not a real challenge to the young whippersnappers. But I recently bought a 2011 so you can't run to single stack to do it.

PCC if you are interested.

One of the "old" guys who showed me the ins and outs of this game when I got into it 7 years ago is older now with bad knees and doesn't move so well. Last year he got into PCC and to say I am winded after a match trying (and often failing) to keep up with him is an understatement.

[Clusterfrack]

cheby (shooting Limited) and I (shooting Production) squadded together at a local match. It was a fun day, and we both took match wins. Here's the division breakdown:

CO 18
Lim 10
L10 2
Open 15
PCC 9
Prod 18
Revo 2
SS 8

[olstyn]

cheby (shooting Limited) and I (shooting Production) squadded together at a local match. It was a fun day, and we both took match wins. Here's the division breakdown:

CO 18
Lim 10
L10 2
Open 15
PCC 9
Prod 18
Revo 2
SS 8

My Thursday night match was:

CO 4
Lim 20
Open 5
Prod 4
SS 6

This was unusual - usually there's more like 10 or 12 Prod shooters, but still, it does seem to be on the decline - it used to be that Prod & Lim had roughly the same numbers.

[cheby]

cheby (shooting Limited) and I (shooting Production) squadded together at a local match. It was a fun day, and we both took match wins. Here's the division breakdown:

CO 18
Lim 10
L10 2
Open 15
PCC 9
Prod 18
Revo 2
SS 8

Yeah. It was a fun match. Surprisingly there were several new shooters shooting production. Last Saturday I shot a match where there were 9 open shooters, 11 limited, 3 SS, and 2(!) Production shooters. Go figure...

[GJM]

At a local match, because the divisions are generally thin, I think in terms of high overall, first pistol or my percentage of high overall. Looks like CO has really taken off in your area, probably helps having Leupold nearby where you can expedite DP Pro repairs. :p

[Clobbersaurus]

I made Master last year with a bone stock G17 Gen 5 (yes, even the sights) in Production Div. I remain convinced that as long as you use a gun from a reputable manufacturer, the specific type of gun and features simply does not matter if you put in the work. Use what you like for whatever reasons you like it.

With regard to the divisions in my area, Production and Standard are where most of the heat is.

[jetfire]

I just shot the Miami Open down here in SoFla, which is a pretty good match and attracts some of the travelling road show shooters. Here's the breakdown:

Open
35

Limited
38

Limited 10
0

Production
15

Revolver
1

Single Stack
9

Carry Optics
33

PCC
27


PCC, Open, Limited, and CO make up the majority of the shooters in the match, which I would say means that people aren't going there to get "easy wins" because in a deeper division you're far more likely to get junked by someone who is squared away. That theory bears out in the results, since Open had Chris Tilly, CO had Max Michel, and PCC had two GMs in it (who I'm not familiar with, but still). Production on the other hand only had one GM, who ran away with the whole match.

Looking at the scores, if I had showed up in Production instead of carry optics I would have a legit shot at making the top 3, instead of getting junked into 13th place in a much deeper division.

[cheby]

There is a thread going on on Brian Enos mentioning some of the issues with Production participation.
Chuck Anderson, who is a multiple divisions GM and used to be one the top Production shooters back in the days posted this:

" I took a couple years off. I was really surprised at the local decline of Production. Seems like most swapped to CO or PCC. Limited was pretty light a few years ago but solid again. Stuff changes. Glock succeeded for a long time because it was cheap and reliable. CZ had issues before Angus started fixing them and EAA was worlds worst importer. Most of that has sorted itself out".

One of the main attractions of Production was the cheap ammo and gear. Also the timmie factor was huge. Looks like, Carry Optic is where the timmies go these days.

Locally, however, Open is the most competitive and strong division now here... I guess I am still beating the dead horse..

[GJM]

At my two matches this weekend, Saturday’s match didn’t have a single Production shooter, and high Production on Sunday was equivalent to a participation trophy. In AZ lately, Production is the new Limited 10 for trophy potential.

[Clusterfrack]

cheby, there’s no dead horse to beat, dude. Local matches are for training, fun, self image growth, and recruiting new USPSA shooters. I’m a few % behind Chuck and that’s all the competition I need in local Production.

Major matches will continue to have plenty of depth in the divisions we care about.

Who knows, if gun bans pass we may all be shooting Revo.

[spinmove_]

cheby, there’s no dead horse to beat, dude. Local matches are for training, fun, self image growth, and recruiting new USPSA shooters. I’m a few % behind Chuck and that’s all the competition I need in local Production.

Major matches will continue to have plenty of depth in the divisions we care about.

Who knows, if gun bans pass we may all be shooting Revo.

Or Single Stack/Limited 10 if you hate wheelguns...


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[cheby]

I am going to shoot this sectional match in May, one of my favorite matches of the year. The match is sold out. This year - 8 Production shooters. Last year there were 12, Year before - 25, 2016- 45....

The match breakdown:

Limited 43 (9M)
Open 34 (6M, 1GM)
Production 8 (No M or GM)
Revolver 1
Single Stack 7
Carry Optics 26
Pcc 22

[jetfire]

I blame Ben for all this of course. Since he’s switching to Limited now.

[GJM]

I blame Ben for all this of course. Since he’s switching to Limited now.

This really isn’t a joke. I have a friend, who shall go nameless, that had a .40 Limited gun and 10,000 rounds of ammo in his cart at SGA, ‘cause Ben.

[spinmove_]

This really isn’t a joke. I have a friend, who shall go nameless, that had a .40 Limited gun and 10,000 rounds of ammo in his cart at SGA, ‘cause Ben.

Oh come on. I’m a fan of Ben as well, but that’s a little ridiculous. From the sounds of things Ben isn’t leaving Production any time soon and the only reason why he’s even screwing around in Limited was because Tanfo sent him some new guns to play with and he smartly didn’t say “No”.


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[cheby]

Seriously speaking, this trend started way before Ben started shooting Limited. However I do know at least one Production GM who got a Limited gun because of Ben.

[jetfire]

This really isn’t a joke. I have a friend, who shall go nameless, that had a .40 Limited gun and 10,000 rounds of ammo in his cart at SGA, ‘cause Ben.

No, this was definitely a joke.

[Clusterfrack]

Oh come on. I’m a fan of Ben as well, but that’s a little ridiculous. From the sounds of things Ben isn’t leaving Production any time soon and the only reason why he’s even screwing around in Limited was because Tanfo sent him some new guns to play with and he smartly didn’t say “No”.


The 9 Days of Nationals model encourages shooting multiple divisions. For sponsored shooters, this provides more visibility and more chances for the podium.

[jetfire]

The 9 Days of Nationals model encourages shooting multiple divisions. For sponsored shooters, this provides more money.

Fixed that for you

[GJM]

Rob Leatham once told me that if shooters wanted to compete for money, they would make more if they got a job as a greeter at Walmart.

[jetfire]

Rob Leatham once told me that if shooters wanted to compete for money, they would make more if they got a job as a greeter at Walmart.

He's not wrong - the money isn't in the prize tables any more. But I can't think of a single Top 16 American GM whose sole source of gun-related income is matches. Which is why shooting multiple nationals is important, because if you're selling classes or trigger jobs, that shit helps.

[YVK]

This really isn’t a joke. I have a friend, who shall go nameless, that had a .40 Limited gun and 10,000 rounds of ammo in his cart at SGA, ‘cause Ben.

Oh, fuck, stop conflating things.

First, it was 5,000 rounds. I am just a doc, with doc's salary, can't afford as much ammo as you can.

Second, the reason I was considering Limited was because after shooting CO for 5 months (after doing a Production for three years), I am not going back to a division with every-10-or-so-reload dance. Not for competition purposes, at least. There is so much of the game that this reloading frenzy is standing in the way for me, I am done with it. You yourself quit it like 5 years ago? So if I ever go back to irons for competition, it will be Limited, and I ain't Gabe either, so it will a foootay.

So the only 'cause Ben part was a consideration of a Tanfo, but I dig that blue gun anyway, and I am not hugely in love with TSO ergos, and I am not paying 3-5 grand for a 2011. Remember, I am just a doc, with doc's salary.

[Clobbersaurus]

I blame Ben for all this of course. Since he’s switching to Limited now.

That coupled with his statement that shooting .40 he simply “does not care” if he throws a C. In many peoples brain that equates to “wow, I can be like Ben and not worry about all those pesky c’s”. Little do they know...

I predict people will switch back to production when their guns start breaking and they have reliability problems. For most shooters that should be a year or two away...

[Clusterfrack]

cheby how many sights have you broke?

[Bucky]

I predict people will switch back to production when their guns start breaking and they have reliability problems. For most shooters that should be a year or two away...

Depends on the gun. I’d bet my STI shooting .40 will outlast my Shadow 2 in 9mm.

[Clobbersaurus]

Depends on the gun. I’d bet my STI shooting .40 will outlast my Shadow 2 in 9mm.

Possibly, that’s if you can get the STI running...:D

[Bucky]

Possibly, that’s if you can get the STI running...:D

Mine has been incredibly reliable. However, mine’s a full build by Millennium Custom.

Getting the mags right is the trick. I use STI magazines. I’ve found that the SV mags I had and others didn’t sit as high in the gun.

I have a purpose built gun for every division in USPSA. if I could only keep one, this would be the one.

[Minnesota]

My Thursday night match was:

CO 4
Lim 20
Open 5
Prod 4
SS 6

This was unusual - usually there's more like 10 or 12 Prod shooters, but still, it does seem to be on the decline - it used to be that Prod & Lim had roughly the same numbers.

I was at that bpr match and was surprised by production numbers last week but a few less shooters all together. I normally shoot production but just got off work and my work gun puts me in limited minor.

[cheby]

cheby how many sights have you broke?

I broke 1 sight (around 13K rds). I have had several screws walked out on my other ones. That's the thing - everything needs to be loktited when shooting major. Including your grip:)
BTW, my buddy broke his rear sight on his STI DVC after 10K as well.

[olstyn]

I was at that bpr match and was surprised by production numbers last week but a few less shooters all together. I normally shoot production but just got off work and my work gun puts me in limited minor.

Welcome to the forum. Always good to see another MN person here. Of course now I have to try to figure out what your real name is based on the set of people in Limited in that match who normally shoot production. :) (Fear not, I'm not interested in outing you in any way, just satisfying my own curiosity.)

[Minnesota]

Welcome to the forum. Always good to see another MN person here. Of course now I have to try to figure out what your real name is based on the set of people in Limited in that match who normally shoot production. :) (Fear not, I'm not interested in outing you in any way, just satisfying my own curiosity.)

I'm sure it wont be hard to figure out. You were 3/20 in limited right? If you are struggling to put a face to the name I'm the guy shooting from concealment.

[wtturn]

The subtitle of this thread: "Confirmation bias is fun!"

I find it odd that no one wants to mention the organization-wide activity statistics. Those tell us that limited is still top dog with production a close second. Then a large gap to open.

CO is growing, and will continue to grow because it's a pretty decent division and guys enjoy having a dot and 22 rounds in the gun.

Guys also switch divisions a lot in this sport.

You might also consider that it's still the off-season for a lot of serious guys, who use the opportunity to goof off in an alternative division. I'm killing time with a borrowed PCC until it's time to get hard and heavy with production again.

Point being, Arizona is not a weather vane for the rest of the sport. In the heat of the season if you come to my club you may see 4-6 prod GMs and no one above b class in limited. Things are different in different places. Right now, all our production GMs are goofing off in CO and PCC.

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[GJM]

I broke 1 sight (around 13K rds). I have had several screws walked out on my other ones. That's the thing - everything needs to be loktited when shooting major. Including your grip:)
BTW, my buddy broke his rear sight on his STI DVC after 10K as well.

I have broken and/or had three rear sights come loose on Shadow 1 pistols. I think it is either a weak point in the design or maybe I need to reduce the power factor of my ammo.

[Alpha Sierra]

A decocker adds complexity where it is not needed. I would never use one for competition.

Are you serious? Can you name one single pistol failure, ever, attributable to this mystical complexity added by decockers?

[olstyn]

If you are struggling to put a face to the name I'm the guy shooting from concealment.

That would have been my first guess as to who you were. I was very impressed with your performance on the 3 boxes stage last match - you absolutely crushed that one.

[jetfire]

Are you serious? Can you name one single pistol failure, ever, attributable to this mystical complexity added by decockers?

I too would like to hear about how a decocker somehow made a gun fail during a match.

[Clusterfrack]

Sorry, I should have been more clear. Reliability isn’t the reason for not wanting a decocker on my CZ game guns. They are plenty reliable. I just don’t want to deal with the added complexity in disassembly. If I shot a P09, a decocker would be fine.

My P07 carry guns have decockers.

[jetfire]

Sorry, I should have been more clear. Reliability isn’t the reason for not wanting a decocker on my CZ game guns. They are plenty reliable. I just don’t want to deal with the added complexity in disassembly. If I shot a P09, a decocker would be fine.

Oh that makes total sense. The only reason I've not gone with the CZ/Tanfo is pinching the hammer to decock the gun gives me the hard heebie-jeebies.

[Clusterfrack]

If you do it using the index finger roll, not the pinch, maybe it won’t feel creepy?

[jetfire]

If you do it using the index finger roll, not the pinch, maybe it won’t feel creepy?

Or I'll just keep shooting my pizza blasters

[Bucky]

If you do it using the index finger roll, not the pinch, maybe it won’t feel creepy?

I'm comfortable with the death pinch. What is the index finger roll?

[Clusterfrack]

I'm comfortable with the death pinch. What is the index finger roll?

Put your support hand index finger between the hammer and the firing pin, with pad facing hammer. Press trigger. Roll finger out from bottom (clockwise if you are right handed) to let hammer down. I monitor the process visually. It’s easy to see and feel everything.

[GJM]

From USPSA today:

Slots for "HICAP" Nationals will be for Open/PCC Divisions and Carry Optics/Limited Divisions. Slots for the "LOCAP" Nationals will be for Production/L10 Divisions and Single Stack/Revolver Divisions. Slot code recipients will be able to pre-register March 29th through May 29th.

[Alpha Sierra]

Sorry, I should have been more clear. Reliability isn’t the reason for not wanting a decocker on my CZ game guns. They are plenty reliable. I just don’t want to deal with the added complexity in disassembly. If I shot a P09, a decocker would be fine.

I don't know how often you completely tear down your CZs down to the last pin, but I do it only twice: first when I get the pistol to clean/deburr/polish what matters, then only if something breaks (which hasn't happened yet).

I have ways of deep cleaning the pistol (including the sear cage) without any further disassembly than a field strip.

I don't mind manually decocking, but if I have a choice I'll take a CZ with decocker over one without every time.