PCC and Handgun proficiency

[GJM]

I think good pistol shooters easily tradition to shooting a carbine well. The opposite is not necessarily true.

Something I have started noticing is that USPSA shooters that have exclusively been shooting PCC for an extended period, in many cases, are losing their pistol skills. Watching them come back to the pistol, or try to come back, quit, and go back to the carbine, is ugly. Carbines teach eye speed, but the heavy weight, light light triggers, minimal recoil and multiple points of contact of the PCC is very different than shooting a handgun.

[JHC]

OMG, I didn't fire pistol for 3 weeks during the hunting season and first time back was pathetic. I will never repeat that. The degradation was barely noticeable at 7 yard shooting but profound at 15-25 yds.

[ASH556]

OMG, I didn't fire pistol for 3 weeks during the hunting season and first time back was pathetic. I will never repeat that. The degradation was barely noticeable at 7 yard shooting but profound at 15-25 yds.

Preach brother!

[John Hearne]

Several weeks ago, I shot a higher end two gun match but didn't have the time to practice much handgun or rifle before the match. I pretty much was dialed in after the first stage with the rifle, my pistol shooting suffered throughout the entire match.

Hanguns are incredibly unforgiving when it comes to trigger control, rifles, not so much.

[jwhitt]

I think good pistol shooters easily tradition to shooting a carbine well. The opposite is not necessarily true.

Should PCC shooters rate the next classification down then (ie PCC M = Limited A)? Or should PCC classifications remain separate from pistol?

[ranger]

One of the reasons I became an active Sporting Clays shooter was that once I reached a certain level, I could sustain my Clays ability when I got busy. When I was competing in USPSA, my pistols skills eroded dramatically when I was away from competition.

I shot a local PCC match last weekend with my MPX SBR - so much fun.

[Bart Carter]

I shoot both pistol and PCC in matches. Don't have the time to put into practice, so I under perform in both. But I really enjoy the shooting! :p

[JodyH]

I think good pistol shooters easily tradition to shooting a carbine well. The opposite is not necessarily true.
I rarely shoot my carbines anymore, maybe a couple magazines every other month.
In local multi-gun matches I hold my own with guys who do a lot more carbine shooting (like the Border Patrol guys, those guys are top of the heap when it comes to LE carbine shooters).
But if I miss a few weeks shooting handgun, ALL my shooting drops off noticeably.

[YVK]

I shoot maybe one, at most two 3G match every year and, without exception, every time I feel how awkward and ugly my rifle shooting is. How long it takes to get into a position, how long to acquire a target on a high magnification, barricades etc. I do pretty good with the pistol though.

[JodyH]

I shoot maybe one, at most two 3G match every year and, without exception, every time I feel how awkward and ugly my rifle shooting is. How long it takes to get into a position, how long to acquire a target on a high magnification, barricades etc. I do pretty good with the pistol though.
AUG with a Trijicon TA33.
It's like shooting a handsgun instead of a rifle.

I'm sure if I tried to break out a full size comp ready AR with a throw lever optic and offset RMR it'd be awkward as hell for me.

[Dismas316]

This has been on my mind lately. Not so much proficiency of the two, but really choosing between the two. I unfortunately became enomored with the PCC and plopped down more money then I wanted on a GMR 15 with the intention to to start compteting quite a bit with it. However I got bitten bad with the pistol bug with regards to completion and am fully in 100% with USPSA pistol matches. I spend every day dry firing and working on getting better so the PCC (an expensive one) sits in my safe. I just don’t want to take away practice or match time at this point away from my pistol.

I actually wish with they would run 2 gun matches, that way could run my PCC but still work most by time with my pistol.

[GJM]

This has been on my mind lately. Not so much proficiency of the two, but really choosing between the two. I unfortunately became enomored with the PCC and plopped down more money then I wanted on a GMR 15 with the intention to to start compteting quite a bit with it. However I got bitten bad with the pistol bug with regards to completion and am fully in 100% with USPSA pistol matches. I spend every day dry firing and working on getting better so the PCC (an expensive one) sits in my safe. I just don’t want to take away practice or match time at this point away from my pistol.

I actually wish with they would run 2 gun matches, that way could run my PCC but still work most by time with my pistol.

Steel Challenge works to run a pistol and PCC.

[Norville]

I concur, relative to a handgun PCC is easier - light trigger, dot, mag capacity, recoil and multiple support points.

Two years ago I dabbled pretty hard in PCC and was borderline M at 82%. A couple of the right classifiers and I would have been there. So I stopped, wanting to earn A in Carry Optics the hard way. I’m still in B class, but that’s my fault for not training enough last year.

I really enjoy PCC, but it takes far less work to score as well as with a handgun. We know USPSA doesn’t recognize high overall, but how many matches is HOA a PCC these days?

[taadski]

I'm of the same mind. A heavy emphasis of pistol work absolutely carries over to the carbine (assuming a relative level of competence). And I agree that it doesn't as effectively go the other way.

Regarding classification, there was a Stoeger podcast recently that discussed the relatively new phenomenon of folks classifying at a certain level with the PCC resulting in them being WAY over classified in pistol. My personal sentiment is that the class -1 policy probably shouldn't apply to PCC. But the over classification is really only going to hurt the shooter themselves, so whatever...

[GJM]

I also agree that the USPSA rule where your highest class in any one division moves every other class to that minus one should NOT apply to PCC. At least for now, I specifically stopped shooting regular PCC USPSA classifiers after April 2017 for this reason. I am shooting PCC and CO in Steel Challenge, but in Steel Challenge one classification does not effect others like in regular USPSA.

[Norville]

I'm of the same mind. A heavy emphasis of pistol work absolutely carries over to the carbine (assuming a relative level of competence). And I agree that it doesn't as effectively go the other way.

Regarding classification, there was a Stoeger podcast recently that discussed the relatively new phenomenon of folks classifying at a certain level with the PCC resulting in them being WAY over classified in pistol. My personal sentiment is that the class -1 policy probably shouldn't apply to PCC. But the over classification is really only going to hurt the shooter themselves, so whatever...


I also agree that the USPSA rule where your highest class in any one division moves every other class to that minus one should NOT apply to PCC. At least for now, I specifically stopped shooting regular PCC USPSA classifiers after April 2017 for this reason. I am shooting PCC and CO in Steel Challenge, but in Steel Challenge one classification does not effect others like in regular USPSA.

Glad to know I’m not the only one. Of course with the adjustment last season of the hit factors I’m probably high B for a while longer, maybe should have taken the -1 bump...

[GJM]

Glad to know I’m not the only one. Of course with the adjustment last season of the hit factors I’m probably high B for a while longer, maybe should have taken the -1 bump...

Looking at various shooters, the most I have seen is PCC getting them two classes above their pistol classification, which would have the effect of increasing their pistol class by one.

[rob_s]

I think good pistol shooters easily tradition to shooting a carbine well. The opposite is not necessarily true.

Guilty.

This is doubly true when only operating the carbine at pistol distances. If you take a carbine class and it doesn’t go past 50 yards, go find another class.

Carbines are ridiculously forgiving of bad habits at close range, and since humans do what feels good, and gettingnhits feels good, it’s easy to see why people can fall into the pistol trap.

I also believe that, in the case of PCC, many shooters see it as a sparsely populated category in which to get an “easy win”. This, and the easy shooting of carbines, is also what IMO led to the explosion of 3 gun. I don’t believe it’s quite as true in $ gun anymore and I suspect it will not be true of PCC much longer, if it still is at all.

[ST911]

I can neglect a carbine a lot longer than a handgun. Which is fine, considering the relative availability and utility of each in my day to day life.


I also believe that, in the case of PCC, many shooters see it as a sparsely populated category in which to get an “easy win”. This, and the easy shooting of carbines, is also what IMO led to the explosion of 3 gun. I don’t believe it’s quite as true in $ gun anymore and I suspect it will not be true of PCC much longer, if it still is at all.

Still valid. PCC gives the guy struggling in the middle of the pack a chance to place high overall on the practiscore sheet. Some enjoy a new twist on the sport and stay humble. Others think they're The Man, until one of two things happen. 1) They trick out their gun to open the gap between PCCs or their PCC and top handgunners. The gun eventually stops working and they can't finish, or place back at their HG level. 2) A couple of good handgunners continue to beat them.

I thought I was just being cynical with this, until I suggested to one MD that PCC's be scored as a separate match so that they wouldn't appear on the overall. :D

[Wayne Dobbs]

I think good pistol shooters easily tradition to shooting a carbine well. The opposite is not necessarily true.

Something I have started noticing is that USPSA shooters that have exclusively been shooting PCC for an extended period, in many cases, are losing their pistol skills. Watching them come back to the pistol, or try to come back, quit, and go back to the carbine, is ugly. Carbines teach eye speed, but the heavy weight, light light triggers, minimal recoil and multiple points of contact of the PCC is very different than shooting a handgun.

George,

You're right on in my experience. I've always noticed that accomplished pistol shooters have no trouble with carbine tasks at all and that folks who've focused on carbine or precision rifle are often complete train wrecks with a pistol. I saw that on a contract training some very high speed, legit dudes on the DoS WPS program. We knew that we were sending at least 25% of them home on pistol fam/qual day. I also recall teaching with a private training group in the 90s and early 2000s. We had a very solid precision rifle guy on board that somehow got plugged into helping me on a basic defensive pistol class. I had him do a demo shoot early in the class and he was REALLY BAD. Working with him later proved that. I learned from that to a) never do an unrehearsed demo and b) shooting a rifle well does not translate to doing it with a pistol.