View Full Version : Grip Force Adapter not legal in SSP for IDPA
WyoXd
03-09-2012, 04:06 PM
Just an FYI. I just read in the 2012 Rule Clarifications on the IDPA Forum posted today that the GFA is not going to be allowed in SSP, only in ESP.
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jetfire
03-09-2012, 04:14 PM
What I found interesting was that the ruling was based on "no factory beavertail extensions are available" for Glocks, which is uh...not true. The Gen 4 Glock has a beavertail extension.
If the rules guys can't even manage to find that with Google...
Mike Honcho
03-09-2012, 05:02 PM
I don't see how it's not legal, it doesn't replace anything. Maybe replacing the pin with the longer one required for the GFA? IDPA hurts my fucking head sometimes.
JodyH
03-09-2012, 05:05 PM
I gave up on IDPA a while back due to the ridiculous rule book.
IPSC has a lot of rules, but at least the majority make sense.
IDPA has jumped the shark imo.
JeffJ
03-09-2012, 05:12 PM
Has anyone seen the Glock beavertail on a gun or for sale outside of SHOT? Could be they consider them different enough, or don't want to consider it until the factory beavertail is readily available (which it might be, I just havent' seen one)
HeadHunter
03-09-2012, 07:52 PM
Has anyone seen the Glock beavertail on a gun or for sale outside of SHOT? Could be they consider them different enough, or don't want to consider it until the factory beavertail is readily available (which it might be, I just havent' seen one)
The beavertail I was shown at SHOT 2012 had to be obtained from the pocket of a high up executive. I was told it was the only one in the US at that time.
http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s91/HeadHunter_album/Heaters/Beavertail2012SHOT.jpg
jetfire
03-09-2012, 08:17 PM
They had one on a floor model at the show as well.
abu fitna
03-09-2012, 09:05 PM
Posted about one shown by a Glock rep in Feb, so probably more than a few now out there.
It is supposed to be newly introduced as just a different back strap. Since Glocks part is basically the same as the Grip force, I can't see that rule making any sense now, let alone on six or nine months when everyone is pushing them OEM.
This points to my continued disappointment with IDPA. I value the testing aspects as much as the competitive side, and this kind of lack of logic definitely hurts transferability of findings. In the fight to avoid gaming, they are losing sight of what simulation is about.
And as folks that may have read my prior threadwill note, I am not a gfa user. But I see the reason a lot of folks transitioning from other platforms use them.
One more reason that I would like to see wildcat rule sets like kstg gain traction. I don't know what the tiger team process may bring, but showing other ways to balance gamer pressures with simulation fidelity has to count for something.
m91196
03-09-2012, 10:59 PM
Just an FYI. I just read in the 2012 Rule Clarifications on the IDPA Forum posted today that the GFA is not going to be allowed in SSP, only in ESP.
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It was legal then it wasn't......
When you have rules addendums on an Internet forum I guess this happens.
JeffJ
03-10-2012, 08:00 AM
The SSP/ESP is messed up IMO - it could be a lot simplier is they just said no external after market modifications in SSP but they didn't they chose this other way to go where everything that hits the market is supposed to be individually inspected to see if it is "close enough" to a factory part. So now there are all these aftermarket widgets that people get attached to and pester each other and IDPA with - it's really really close to factory so I should be able to use it in SSP - my take is, if it's sooo close to factory, then use the factory part.
The ruling on the Vickers mag release is a lot like this - yes it is very close to a factory part, but most people who've used one consider it to be much better (which I think means that it's enhanced)
abu fitna
03-11-2012, 10:15 PM
I also wonder what this means for ctc laser grips. As I understood it, these were legal with laser off or taped blackout, so long as the gun wasn't oversized or if the grips were not overweight. But this complicates that logic if one would argue that they provide any grip improvement. Not my argument, but this kind of logic trap is killing reasonable range of what folks actually carry. And at the end of the day this reduces the simulation value.
Someone please feel free to correct me if I am missing something in all of this? Or is it just one more step in returning idpa to a 1911 game, to rid the field of the upstarts?
The SSP/ESP is messed up IMO - it could be a lot simplier is they just said no external after market modifications in SSP but they didn't they chose this other way to go where everything that hits the market is supposed to be individually inspected to see if it is "close enough" to a factory part. So now there are all these aftermarket widgets that people get attached to and pester each other and IDPA with - it's really really close to factory so I should be able to use it in SSP - my take is, if it's sooo close to factory, then use the factory part.
The ruling on the Vickers mag release is a lot like this - yes it is very close to a factory part, but most people who've used one consider it to be much better (which I think means that it's enhanced)
Which way did they end up on the Vickers mag release? Which almost identical to the one the factory provides the FBI. (Vickers was first IIRC).
JeffJ
03-12-2012, 08:39 AM
Last I checked the vickers release was illegal for SSP
Motor-T
03-13-2012, 07:36 AM
I guess I just look at it differently. The GFA isn't illegal for IDPA. You just shoot in the ESP class because you've enhanced your pistol. :D
HeadHunter
03-13-2012, 08:03 AM
I guess I just look at it differently. The GFA isn't illegal for IDPA. You just shoot in the ESP class because you've enhanced your pistol. :D
There it is. Unless concerned about being "beaten" by some gamer shooting a 9mm 1911, it's a non-issue.
There it is. Unless concerned about being "beaten" by some gamer shooting a 9mm 1911, it's a non-issue.
I don't think the SSP vs ESP distinction really matters that much. Shooter skill is far more important that a few minor equipment differences. The magwell is the only thing that I think might make a significant difference. I wouldn't care a bit if they merged the divisions.
MikeyC
03-13-2012, 12:25 PM
I've never completely understood the need for distinction unless it was one of those things they stuck in there to be "more different" than IPSC/USPSA. There's also rough 10 seconds taken off of the cutoff times, which would need to be attended to.
jetfire
03-13-2012, 12:29 PM
From what I understand, back in the 90s when IDPA first started the idea was that ESP would be for guns like 1911s in 9mm or .38 Super with magwells and race gear attached to it, while SSP would be dominated by DA/SA guns. At the time, there was the belief that you couldn't shoot a DA/SA as fast as a single action 1911. The dominance of striker fired guns in the LE market tossed that on its head though, and effectively rendered the distinction moot. Dan Burwell won ESP at the Indoor Nats shooting an M&P Pro in 9mm. Out of the top five finishes in CDP, three of them were using polymer framed guns, Glock 21s and M&P45s.
ToddG
03-13-2012, 12:59 PM
Sort of.
SSP was supposed to be the Everyman division. Grab your Ruger P85, an Uncle Mike's holster, and you can run with the big dogs. Except, of course, you cannot.
ESP was originally going to be for BHPs and .38 Super 1911s. It was where all the "race kids" were supposed to compete, out of sight of the True Warriors shooting either SSP or .45 1911s in CDP.
Then guns like the XD came out that challenged old fashioned thinking about pistol actions. More people began using little enhancements to their pistols -- whether it's a Vickers slide stop or a GFA. The concept behind SSP makes it difficult to have logical rules. You can get an extended Glock slide release on a delivered pistol, so that's legal. You can't get a Vickers slide release on a pistol straight from Glock, so it's not. It's not about which part gives you an advantage, it's about whether the gun is "stock" in the classic sense.
On its face, I don't really have a problem with the distinction. Folks have been winning ESP with Glocks and similar guns for a long time now, so it's not like there is some perception that you're at a disadvantage over the 9mm 1911 shooter. The only issue is that it's very easy to skip from SSP into ESP without meaning to. For example, I took an emory board to the magwell and trigger guard of my P30. Suddenly... it's ESP. To be honest, if I'd shot an IDPA match in '09 I don't know that I would have remembered that. The change was minor and I never thought about it.
All three semiauto divisions are dominated by striker fired guns now. That should be a clue that the old distinctions need to go. But completely changing such a fundamental aspect of IDPA might be more than they're willing to do, or more than they think is necessary. There's also the unavoidable fact that IDPA and a major 1911 manufacturer are intrinsically linked and that will always have a certain amount of influence on the rules.
orionz06
03-13-2012, 01:11 PM
Competition only apparel is also not IDPA legal but they will sell you a vest...
m91196
03-13-2012, 05:44 PM
Competition only apparel is also not IDPA legal but they will sell you a vest...
It is a Frank Fontana photographers vest.
To ToddG's point a contestant at the Indoors this year had a GFA Glock and was entered in SSP.
Bumped to ESP during the match, I imagine a 3 second PE, even though the most recent rulling made the device legal at that time.(and Robert Ray was at the match).
sm0kyjoe
03-13-2012, 08:06 PM
Whats the big issue against shooting in ESP anyway? People act like there getting bumped to USPSA open class. o_O Id like to see a "striker" fired class, a da/sa class, Sa only, and da only. No opinion on wheel guns.
orionz06
03-13-2012, 08:12 PM
Because serious shooters only shoot SSP, ESP is for gamers.
/sarcasm
Whats the big issue against shooting in ESP anyway? People act like there getting bumped to USPSA open class. o_O Id like to see a "striker" fired class, a da/sa class, Sa only, and da only. No opinion on wheel guns.
Divisions are for guns, classes are for shooters. The problem with more divisions is where does it end? I have no interest in winning the '5" M&P9 with 147 grain bullets" division, I want to shoot against everyone.
The reason I shoot in SSP is that it's where a supermajority of the competition is locally. If everyone around here shot in ESP, I'd have no problem shooting the exact same equipment in ESP. Iron sight 10 shot minor is iron sight 10 shot minor.
orionz06
03-15-2012, 05:05 PM
Di '5" M&P9 with 147 grain bullets"
That is a viable carry option, not sure of the issue.
That is a viable carry option, not sure of the issue.
I was saying that at some point, the addition of more divisions gets ridiculous. Currently there are SSP and ESP. sm0kyjoe wanted striker, da/sa, da, and sa. I was trying to make the point that eventually there are so many divisions that no one is actually competing against anyone else. I'd be shooting alone in '5" M&P with 147gr bullets', while my friend Mike was shooting '5" M&P with 124gr bullets', my friend Dave was shooting 'Glock 34 with 147s', etc.
TheRoland
03-15-2012, 07:29 PM
I was saying that at some point, the addition of more divisions gets ridiculous. Currently there are SSP and ESP. sm0kyjoe wanted striker, da/sa, da, and sa. I was trying to make the point that eventually there are so many divisions that no one is actually competing against anyone else. I'd be shooting alone in '5" M&P with 147gr bullets', while my friend Mike was shooting '5" M&P with 124gr bullets', my friend Dave was shooting 'Glock 34 with 147s', etc.
Even at less-attended matches, it's a bit like this already. For the first year I was shooting, winning CDP in our local area was as easy as showing up when it was cold out and not getting disqualified. In fact, that's the only way I've ever won divisions :-).
Even at less-attended matches, it's a bit like this already. For the first year I was shooting, winning CDP in our local area was as easy as showing up when it was cold out and not getting disqualified. In fact, that's the only way I've ever won divisions :-).
I won ESP at the first match I ever shot at Harvard. I still have the iron on transfer prize that I got.
sm0kyjoe
03-15-2012, 10:32 PM
I won ESP at the first match I ever shot at Harvard. I still have the iron on transfer prize that I got.
Im also ok with the ssp, esp classes there just not setup right. Stock guns should stay in ssp sa or not. Enhanced guns go in esp. That will never happen though. Even though the reality is that the large majority of guns would end up in esp. How many bone stock guns do you see in ssp? Ill shoot were ever my gun ends up.
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