I don't get the Glock Grip cliche - evidence

[Glenn E. Meyer]

So in another thread, a poster says the Glock doesn't fit his hand. I've seen folks say that they just can't shoot a Glock because of the grip angle.

I don't get it. What does it mean empirically? A person with handgun experience picks up a Glock and cannot make reasonable hits at usual distances? They spray the environment. Are my hands special? I can shoot a Glock or 1911 with a good deal of accuracy.

But I see this all the time and it seems to me (no offense), it is some kind of virtue signaling from some to show how cool they are.

What is the empirical evidence if one of these folks shoots a standard test with a Glock 19, let's say vs. some other wonder gun of choice?

What is the performance degradation? I recall Karl Rehn doing such a test with small guns vs. bigger handguns for novices and advanced shooters and showing the decrements of novices with the smaller guns. I've noted that it takes me a touch of reinforcement to get my small gun skills up to speed if I have practiced with them.

Anybody ever do that for the Glock grip haters?

[Duelist]

No, haven't. But I have handed someone the gun and a box of ammo and said, "Just shoot it." Usually, the response it, "Oh, that wasn't that bad."

I was messing around with my 642 and my G26 the other day, and noticed that they have about the same bore/grip angle. So there's that.

[JSGlock34]

Too often I hear the gun store advice of "pick the pistol that feels best in your hand", usually followed by the person gripping the pistol incorrectly. You don't know what you don't know.

To be sure, there are people who struggle to operate the controls of certain pistols, and may be better served by another handgun. Still, the Glock is the most common service pistol on the planet, so it seems to fit a great number of hands without much issue.

[Duke]

Shot a Glock for 10+ years.

Trained with pat Mac, thunder ranch, Panone, many others. Have my own range. Can shoot whenever I want.

Can spit cards strong hand only at 7 meters...but No improvement when shooting at speed.

Switched from Glocks to DA/SA beretta. 3 months later got a fast coin

We have to move away from the “if you can’t shoot such and such then you just can’t shoot”

It’s 2018 and the Glock is one of the only guns out there with 30+ year old unchanged ergonomics. And to that end most everyone has some kind of grinding or stippling done.


I have weird sized/shaped hands. It is what it is. Throwing bullets is pretty serious business. Should probably use what gives you an advantage

[CCT125US]

Certainly a difference between can't shoot, and one's preference. I am not a Glock guy. My first gun was a USP .45, my second was a G26. Purchased a second G26 for my wife many years ago. They have since been sold off. I am in the camp of not caring for the Glock grip angle. I believe it is more out of unfamiliarity than actual performance degradation. I have a few more rounds through HKs than Glocks. Several months back I borrowed a friends G19.5 just to give it a whirl and see what the fuss was about. In my initial mag, I believe I passed the iHack and several other standard drills following that. I remember thinking of all the money I would have saved if I just picked up 2 G19s when I started shooting. My issue with Glocks is they don't offer a paddle release, LEM, that accepts HK mags.

[awp_101]

OK, I'll play.

I'm not a Glock hater, I've carried G19s and a G30 for 9 of the past 10 years. The short version is I have to work harder to shoot a Glock (except maybe the 43) because of my medium size hands with stubby fingers. With the aftermarket support and the fact you can find parts and mags without even trying, I really want to like them. I'd love a 20 and 21, maybe even a 29 but unless I start doing back strap mods it's simply easier for me to spend my time and money on pistols that actually fit me better and are easier for me to shoot.

[BehindBlueI's]

Are my hands special?

Probably not, but some folks' are. Someone with very small hands might very well need a grip reduction or smaller grip to get a good grip on the gun. Especially with some of the relatively snappy .40 Glocks.

My hands are definitely custom. My right hand has metal in it, but more importantly the bottom two fingers are crooked. The pinky also rolls out quite a bit (if the top of my other fingernails point at 12, my pinky is pointing at about 2). Not only do I get blisters very quickly from shooting finger grooved Glocks, I perform measurably worse at things like the FAST, Bill drills, etc. where speed is a factor. I never feel like I have a good grip on the gun, and wearing skin off your finger is never great for flinch. For pure accuracy and low volumes of fire, I can shoot nearly as well, but still measurably worse.

The Gen 5 changed that. I shoot the 17M just as well as the P226, with the exception of the 1" square on "Find your Level" and that's due to sights, not the gun. So, at least for me, it's not the angle so much as the grooves and the texture. I have zero use for Gen 3 or 4 Glocks due to the grips.

[Artemas2]

It is like limp wristing. Person can't perform and blames it on either on the gun or the latest fun phrase they heard on the internet, or a 1980s era gun magazine.

That may not include people who have legitimately small hands and would be better served with an M&P, CZ, VP9, 1911 and so on.

Glocks do require a small amount of forward wrist rotation to level the sights, which if you are using said sights correctly the "grip angle" is likely only going to affect your initial presentation until you get a few reps in.

The more into the minutia that you get the worse the problem comes up.

My opinions on this are based on my observations from the local ranges and may not reflect some of you 25 yard X-ring punching P-Fers:)

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I understand the higher end shooters who evaluate their performance empirically or with specific hand issues. I guess I was reactive to several I just can't shoot comments from seemingly ordinary folks with normal mitts.

I don't particularly like the larger SW revolvers for my hand but if I had to shoot one, I could and have at matches.

[Gio]

Regarding grip angle, I think the slightly more forward rotation of your hands required to align Glock sights leads to improved recoil control. I can shoot a Glock flatter than any other polymer service pistol as a result.

[cornstalker]

Grip angle seems like it can be overcome by training. Trigger reach combined with the thickness of the gun is a very real issue for folks with short fingers. Can the gun still be run well? Yes. Are you going to achieve your full potential with it? Maybe not...

[Totem Polar]

It’s 2018 and the Glock is one of the only guns out there with 30+ year old unchanged ergonomics. And to that end most everyone has some kind of grinding or stippling done.


I love this perspective; essentially that other poly makers have moved the ergos forward and (sort of) forced Glock to play catch up—the design is indeed older than many members on P-F (37 and counting...)

That said, I’d counter that 1911s and pretty much all S&W/Ruger revolvers still in wide use have more amcient ergos, and the grips still work fine, even if other aspects of the designs have become dated.

Anyhoo, Glenn, I got a bit of a permission epiphany from dagga boy a while back in my thread on modern thinking applied to wheelguns, roughly: "a 1911 or revolver isn’t a Glock, don’t grip it like one...."

Whoa. So, on Glocks, I use the current high-speed hotness, with the aggressive wrist cant/forward thumb/shooting thumb pressuring the medial support-hand thumb joint, blah blah... on 1911s, only slighly less aggression in the support hand, but the primary rides the safetly, and wheelies are a totally different animal. On J-frames, for me, I’ve settled on unlocked thumbs—the only way I can use them with concealment grips, and it hasn’t hurt my accuracy any. Hurts my follow up speed, sure, but that’s the nature of that beast. Point being, different tools; modify appropriately.

With the exception of the Js, I seem to be at about the same level of (true) middle-of-the-road mediocrity with all of them—but that is certainly more due to developing the opinion that becoming a master at reading assault cues, playing a butterfly guard, and cardio will do more for my physical survival than improving my split times.

I’ll step back and let all the folks with waaaaay better split times carry on. Just my .02, because, internet.

[Rex G]

Grip angle, schmip angle. A Gen3 or Gen4 Glock points naturally in my hand, as does a 1911, and a SIG P229R. Different grip angles, yes, all point “naturally.” If I have to suddenly defend a hill, with only pistols, and try to avoid dying on that hill, I want my pair of G17 pistols, and my three full-sized 1911 pistols. (I retired my P229R, due to .40 Snap & Whip muzzle flip being harsh on my aging wrist.) If I get smoke or other stuff in my eyes, or my eyeglasses get damaged or dirty, I will place the silhouette of the pistol on the opponent, trust the “point-ability” of the pistol, and my trigger control, to result in a successful outcome.

However, earlier Glocks, pre-Gen3, in spite of having the same grip angle, do not point naturally for me. IIRC, they point noticeable low. So, it is, again, not about the “grip angle.”

[LJP]

I'm one of the ones that is of the opinion that the Glock doesn't fit my hand. It has nothing to do with grip angle and everything to do with hand size and geometry. I can still shoot a stock one decently, but I will be bleeding and blistered after a high round count class. To get a proper index on a G19, my proximal thumb joint falls directly under the edge of the reciprocating slide and I am intimately acquainted with "Glock knuckle." I finally broke down after nearly ten years and sent a Glock off to Ben at Boresight Solutions and I haven't looked back since.

[Doc_Glock]

No, haven't. But I have handed someone the gun and a box of ammo and said, "Just shoot it." Usually, the response it, "Oh, that wasn't that bad."

I was messing around with my 642 and my G26 the other day, and noticed that they have about the same bore/grip angle. So there's that.

I also noticed the Glock and LCR have similar grip angles.

[guymontag]

Okay I’ll play:

Steel Challenge times as the benchmark, the “quicker” closer stages have been best with a plastic G17 and the more “accuracy” further stages have been best with a steel CZ. I’m now experimenting with the CZ P series to see what’s up but in essence I shoot more confidently and better at distance with a CZ style gun than a Glock. The way my fingers and grip interface with the Glock is not as smooth or “natural” and I have to pay attention more with a Glock.

Different people are different, we have a wide variety of guns out there - no harm no foul on someone (IMO) if they prefer a different piece of metal and plastic than I do. Excuses are everywhere in life, sometimes valid and sometimes not...

[YVK]

So in another thread, a poster says the Glock doesn't fit his hand. I've seen folks say that they just can't shoot a Glock because of the grip angle.




Grip angle is a non-issue. It's a case of conflating the reasons of why and what. My favorite part is that H&K P7M8 has the same grip angle as Glock and I am yet to see one person complaining about it. Glocks point high because people push on that hump. My other favorite part is when 1911 shooters complain about this and then put a wedge mainspring housing on their JMB gat; wedge MSH was designed to help 1911 point higher for those who naturally point low with a flat MSH. Glock is blocky, easy to push high, and its trigger requires respect and patience, that's all to it.

The day when Glock pulls their head from another part of their body and introduces Gen25 guns with a fully removable backstrap a'la H&K P30/VP9 will be the day the grip angle talk dies.

[Wondering Beard]

All right, I'll play too.

My first handgun was a gen2 G19 within a year or so of when they first came out. Everything else feels weird ;-)

[Duke]

I bet everyone here that runs an AR15 at all has changed out the stock A2 grip for something with a different angle/feel.

Just saying

[Darth_Uno]

“I can’t shoot x” is a load of horse hooey, and I’d know because I used to say it.

[JAD]

I can’t shoot pre-4 Glocks. They’re too big for Mechanix-S hands. Doesn’t have much to do with grip angle, though, that issue goes away after a couple hundred rounds.

[MistWolf]

I am by no stretch of the imagination a great pistol shot. Push come to shove, I'm closer to "Mediocre" than "Good" or even "Fair" but I have shot a wide variety of handguns over the years and I'm stubborn and opinionated. Being stubborn and opinionated is all too often means being narrow minded, but hear me out. I think being stubborn and opinionated gives me insight to your dilemma .

So in another thread, a poster says the Glock doesn't fit his hand. I've seen folks say that they just can't shoot a Glock because of the grip angle.
I felt the same way. I don't like the grip angle (although I always thought it looks dead sexy on a Luger) for a variety of reasons. The blocky shape only makes the odd angle worse. "Glock rhymes with Block." Glocks do not point naturally for me and take more time to align the sights. I thought the whole thing was stupid. I can't shoot this "Combat Tupperware". When asked why I didn't like the Glock, it was easier to stick to my guns and say "I can't shoot a Glock". If you can't shoot something, you can't shoot something. End of story.

The truth is, I can shoot a Glock. With a bit of work, I could probably shoot a Glock just as well as any other handgun. With even more work, I could probably shoot a Glock as well as my favorites. I don't dislike shooting Glocks. In fact, I like shooting most any firearm. It's just I like shooting my 1911 and PPQ more. It just took time to admit it. Stubborn and opinionated.

The Glock grip angle is not a popular one. The only self-loading centerfire handgun I can think of off the top of my head that used a similar grip angle is the Luger P-08. Still, there are shooters who actually like the Glock grip angle. There are shooters that like the Glock in spite of the grip angle and wish the grip angle was more like the 1911. But I've never heard anyone wish a handgun with a 1911 grip angle wish it were more like the Glock. None of that matters, though. Each shooter has to decide what works for them, what they'll give up to gain what's important to them. I wouldn't trade my PPQ for a Glock. I wouldn't trade my 1911 for any three Glocks. Stubborn and opinionated.

Don't give another thought to anyone's claims they "just can't shoot a Glock". You know how I handled it when, after explaining why I thought something was a bad idea, my sons wanted to go ahead with it? I said "Let's try it and see"- as long as it didn't involve loss of limb, death or massive property damage. Either they figured out I was right, or I figured out they were. When you encounter someone who claims they simply cannot shoot a Glock, it isn't that they can't shoot one at all. Most shooters can shoot almost any handgun with some degree of success. It's that they are being stubborn and opinionated, either to avoid the issue or to enjoy the attention of being the "special exception" to the rule. Don't worry about empirical data or changing their minds or waste time trying to make sense of it. They'll either figure it out, or they won't. Don't waste any time or energy over it.

[Clobbersaurus]

I think folks that can’t shoot complain about such things as ergonomics causing them to shoot poorly.

I also think that folks that can shoot complain about such things as ergonomics causing them to shoot poorly.

What you consider “shooting poorly” is dependant your level of skill. Being able to diagnose the reasons for shooting poorly is also dependent on your level of skill.

I’m not trying to be overly philosophical with my response - I believe it’s the truth.

If a guy like Duke (above) says he can shoot a Beretta better because it fits his hands better, I am more inclined to believe that is true for him than the local mouth breather at the range.

Personally, I shoot Glocks measurably better than Beretta’s. But my hands are kinda weird. I love Beretta’s though, and can shoot them pretty damn well.

[Bucky]

Sometimes people just don’t prefer it, and that gets morphed into they can’t shoot it. Kind of like the contentious bore axis discussion.

[pew_pew]

People try to come up with excuses on why not to buy a Glock because they want to be different or something. But Glocks are the best option for most applications. Period. So people come up with stupid stuff like this. If you say that you just can’t shoot a Glock and ergos and blah blah blah then you are lying or you don’t know how to shoot. Sights all line up the same. And guns don’t need to be comfortable. They aren’t socks. I mean Jesus. Glock grips aide in shooting well. They allow for a low bore, wrists locked, and the square grips allow you to apply even pressure. Straight nonsense hearing people talk about that stuff.

[M2CattleCo]

Grip angle seems like it can be overcome by training. Trigger reach combined with the thickness of the gun is a very real issue for folks with short fingers. Can the gun still be run well? Yes. Are you going to achieve your full potential with it? Maybe not...

It's this most of the time.

I find it's a royal PITA to get my trigger finger down past my middle finger and around the frame to pull the trigger.

ETA: I can shoot a Glock, but I don't have to, so I don't. I classified USPSA high A Class several times last year with a stock 19 from a JM IWB #3.

[BehindBlueI's]

That said, I’d counter that 1911s and pretty much all S&W/Ruger revolvers still in wide use have more amcient ergos, and the grips still work fine, even if other aspects of the designs have become dated.

But all of them, particularly the revolvers, readily accept customization. You are a screw driver away from new grips of varying thicknesses, textures, etc. Quite a bit easier than stippling, plus much more reversible.


I bet everyone here that runs an AR15 at all has changed out the stock A2 grip for something with a different angle/feel.

Just saying

I think I've had my M16A1 DRMO patrol rife for about 9 years now, maybe 10. I'm still using the stock grip. I shouldn't be, though, the ergo grips are better. It's just one of those things I never quite get around to.


. And guns don’t need to be comfortable. They aren’t socks.

I'd much rather have a gun that doesn't require bandages at the end of the range day, nor is losing skin conducive to performing at your best. They don't *need* to be comfortable, but we live in a golden age of choice. Glock is a great option, but it's not the only viable one.

[HCM]

I bet everyone here that runs an AR15 at all has changed out the stock A2 grip for something with a different angle/feel.

Just saying

I have done that on some guns but I can’t on work guns. What I learned from that is it really doesn’t matter.

What feels best and what works best are often two different things. Feelings lie.

That is not to say you should be getting cuts and blisters. Sharpe edges and hot spots are defects and should be fixed.

[GJM]

It's this most of the time.

I find it's a royal PITA to get my trigger finger down past my middle finger and around the frame to pull the trigger.

ETA: I can shoot a Glock, but I don't have to, so I don't. I classified USPSA high A Class several times last year with a stock 19 from a JM IWB #3.

Classified “USPSA high A class” has a very specific meaning to those of us working hard at USPSA. To be classified in USPSA, you need:

“For initial classifications, the best four scores of the most recent six scores on file are used to calculate your classification. After you have earned your initial classification, the next time the classification system is run, your best six of the most recent eight scores on file will be used to calculate your current average.

Do you have a USPSA number and have you held the classification of “A” in Production or Limited, by achieving an average of 75.0 percent or higher, or do you mean something completely different?

[Darth_Uno]

I used to say I could shoot 1911’s better than Glocks. Which was true, but I used it an excuse to ignore Glocks and everything else. After realizing that running out of ammo is for chumps, I made the switch to 19’s and now I can shoot them every bit as well as as a 1911.

If I was told I had one chance to run a drill cold, and lives hang in the balance, my first question would be, “whose life,” and if I cared enough I’d probably run it with my trusty Dan Wesson Pointman. I don’t mean this as 1911 vs Everything Else. My point is, if I had to shoot it with a Glock, I’d be ok. It’s a different muscle memory setting.

Fortunately I have biggish hands and am one of 3 people who didn’t think the HK USP was too big, so I can adapt to about anything. I certainly understand if it’s an issue of just not putting enough meat on the gun.

[M2CattleCo]

I should have said I was consistently placing with scores that would put me in high A class.

I haven't actually classified since 2014, I always shot Single Stack back then.

[AZgunguy]

I don't like Glock, I think they're ugly and I have to work to shoot them. That being said, I have been a police officer since 1996 and every agency I've worked for issues Glocks. After years of fighting it, this year I gave up and accepted it. I shoot Glocks well and I'm stuck with them. Grip angle doesn't seem to bother me but if I carry something different, like a FNX40 I had and then shoot my duty weapon, I screw it up. Since I'm most likely to get involved in a shooting with a Glock, I want to shoot it well. So the FNX40 went bye bye and I'm trying to be a Glock lover.

[spinmove_]

If a person is complaining about the grip angle then they’re either VERY INTIMATELY familiar with another platform, not a very good shooter, and/or they’re severely physically handicapped/compromised.

If a person is complaining about not shooting Glocks very well they generally need to work on grip or trigger control or they legitimately have some fairly small hands that Glocks aren’t very friendly to due to their blocky shape. If they’ve got small hands I hear LAV has some fairly small hands and loves Glocks. Maybe they should take a class from him.

I have medium-ish hands. I shoot just about most pistols equally well, including Glocks. Glocks are unforgiving, don’t get me wrong, but there’s not THAT much difference in what I can do with a Glock vs what I can do with a CZ/Beretta.

I’m personally transitioning from Glocks to CZs. Why? I believe the TDA trigger system is a better system overall, CZ pistols have reliable 10 round magazines should my state start putting those restrictions in place, and they’re just more comfortable to shoot and dryfire with for extended periods of time.

Glocks aren’t holding me back from being a higher class USPSA shooter. I just need more practice to be a better shooter.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[pangloss]

In my experience, people who say the Glock grip angle is "wrong" haven't shot the pistol enough to habituate to it--or haven't shot the pistol at all. I would also claim that the vast majority of these people haven't put 2,000 rounds through any single platform. If you dry fire from the holster for 15 minutes a night for a few nights, Glocks feel natural, likewise a PX4 or a K-frame. People just like to be special.

Several years ago, I was a bystander to a conversation once about the difference between "gun guys" and "shooters." Gun guys are gear-focused. Shooters are shooting-focused. Generally, the comments referenced by the OP seem to come from gun guys rather than shooters. I can appreciate their enthusiasm for guns, but I really wish these people would shoot more. (To be clear, I completely believe that some platforms work better for some shooters than other platforms. I just don't see the people who make experience-based statements to that effect starting threads about how Glocks don't work for them as well as XYZ platform.)

[M2CattleCo]

A Glock 19 points very similarly to a 1911 with an arched mainspring housing.

[medmo]

So in another thread, a poster says the Glock doesn't fit his hand. I've seen folks say that they just can't shoot a Glock because of the grip angle.

I don't get it. What does it mean empirically? A person with handgun experience picks up a Glock and cannot make reasonable hits at usual distances? They spray the environment. Are my hands special? I can shoot a Glock or 1911 with a good deal of accuracy.

But I see this all the time and it seems to me (no offense), it is some kind of virtue signaling from some to show how cool they are.

What is the empirical evidence if one of these folks shoots a standard test with a Glock 19, let's say vs. some other wonder gun of choice?
Karl Rehn doing such a test with small guns vs. bigger handguns for novices and advanced shooters and showing the decrements of novices with the smaller guns. I've noted that it takes me a touch of reinforcement to get my small gun skills up to speed if I have practiced with them.

Anybody ever do that for the Glock grip haters?

Empirically? I can’t quantify it with empirical numbers nor can I spout grip angles of different manufacturers. What I can tell you is my natural point of aim is really high and I have to consciously focus on my wrist to not do so with a Glock frame. I put thousands of rounds down range each year so I’m a “shooter” I guess. I sincerely tried a G19 with IDPA matches but it just didn’t work best for me. Trust me, I tried. I wear 2xl glove size so I do get plenty of wrap.

[willie]

I have very large and strong hands. My right hand palm and the inside of the middle two fingers have had calluses from shooting since my teen years. I shoot best with the large frame Glocks. My Glock bitch is that my trigger finger drags on the trigger guard. I was 40 years old before I heard others complain about grip comfort. My favorite Glock is the 26. I have carried Glocks but am not comfortable with the safety on the trigger feature. Now if I have one in a back pack while fishing or otherwise out along field and stream, I keep the chamber empty. But at the same time I have a J frame.

[HCM]

I have very large and strong hands. My right hand palm and the inside of the middle two fingers have had calluses from shooting since my teen years. I shoot best with the large frame Glocks. My Glock bitch is that my trigger finger drags on the trigger guard. I was 40 years old before I heard others complain about grip comfort. My favorite Glock is the 26. I have carried Glocks but am not comfortable with the safety on the trigger feature. Now if I have one in a back pack while fishing or otherwise out along field and stream, I keep the chamber empty. But at the same time I have a J frame.

The tab on the trigger is not intended as a “safety on the trigger” it is drop safety.

Same reason you see the same tab safety on many newer bolt action rifle triggers.

[willie]

Thanks for the clarification. I knew that the tab gave protection when reholstering but had no idea that it was a drop safety.

[HCM]

Thanks for the clarification. I knew that the tab gave protection when reholstering but had no idea that it was a drop safety.

Any protection reholstering is incidental. It is an inertia/ drop safety only.

[willie]

I need to study the system and get past my assumptions. I'm supposed to be better informed. Thank you.

[navyman8903]

Definitely some Glock Autism in this thread.

First and foremost if you think Glock is the only answer, then that is how you'll attack the problem. IT's a buyers market, and not everyone on here drives a Ford F-150 or a honda civic. Just saying. Plenty of proven guns out there, and plenty of people who can shoot them just as well/fast as Glock shooters. Case and point, Todd G among a long list of others.

So, I started shooting in 1911's and an HK P7M8. Then I enlisted in the Navy, and started shooting berettas. Then my first pistol was a USPc 40 LEM, then a USP 45 V1, then an HK45 V1, then a Glock 19 Gen 3 was my first 9mm and glock I had ever owned at that point. I shot it well, but I had to work on my draws to shoot it properly. Because the front sight would crown on me when drawing and presenting on target. Because the grip angle is scientifically, undeniably, and plainly available to be confirmed by google search to be different. Also, the grip on a glock is significantly thicker than other guns in its class. The Gen 4/5 mitigated this. But a G21 really flexes on my MARK 23's grip. I wear medium mechanix gloves and I run my MARK 23 just fine. IT's at the edge of what I can COMFORTABLY grip and control. I did not like the Gen 3 G21's. I couldn't run them as well. They were also thick in the wrong spots for me. Glocks have to be 9mm for me in general. Though I still have a small....super tiny place in my heart for the 30s.

That being said, you could train to shoot a hi-point well. Did I have to work with my G19 to shoot it well? Yes. The grip angle was different and ALL of my other pistols pointed more naturally for me. I'm also definitely not a glock hater, but I sold out of my Glocks twice (never should have sold that Gen 3 it ran like a top.....unless it had a light on there and I was running 115's. But then I vowed to only run 124 NATO or 124 +p and never had the issue.), but I'm back into them again along with the rest of my wares. I'm primarily an HK guy, but you would have to kill me to get me to get rid of my G34. I'm also going to pick up a Gen 5 G17. The 17 and 34 fit me the best, and shoot the best for me. I can run a G19, but I haven't had one that runs well (went through two Gen 4's and shot a gen 5 19 with mixed results) and I'm still sour about selling my Gen 3. I just finished setting up my Gen 4 34 in fact and it's exactly where I want it. Shoots great and I can't stop taking it to the range. IT's my home defense gun now.


The point I will make is this. Comfort is a factor, especially when it's a buyers market. Glocks are proven and run well sure, they're popular. Almost everyone has one. Got it. They are neither elegant or a one size fits all gun. They do not function in a smooth manner compared to other guns with more refined actions. And there's stories out there about how glocks are not respected by other manufacturers because of how they'll still fire slightly out of battery. Very slightly, but still not in full lockup. Not till the 43 anyway. But I'm getting side tracked..... the comfort factor is important because if there's a gun that PROPERLY fits someone better and is more comfortable, they'll default to that gun. Like my wife with her VP9, quite frankly me too. But she carries a G17 on duty, and has to carry her new Gen5 G26 off duty, despite loving and shooting the VP9sk I bought her much better. Her department mandates a certain list of GLOCK off duty pistols. IF she's carrying and intervenes off duty with her VP9, it could land her in some trouble. Don't ask me why. Anywho, she shoots the lights out with the VP9 compared to the G17 and with the VP9sk compared to her 26. Why? partially comfort. Now don't get me wrong she still runs the glocks well enough to be very lethal. But the groups out of her HK's are always super tight. And a new shooter isn't going to want to hear "I know this one isn't as comfortable, but if you work at it more than the other gun that fits you and you already shoot straight, you can shoot it well too." They're going to say "fuck that, I'll just get the other one." Which recently happened to me. I was suggesting one of my guys get a Glock 19 or 26 as his first carry pistol, and to my surprise he shot the lights out with a P30sk V3. I mean night and day. He's a rifle shooter all day long, but struggles with pistols. The P30 fit him better, he somehow liked the trigger better and the results were clear as day on paper.

Glock isn't always the answer, and if someone doesn't prefer them or shoot them as well as something else......that's completely fine. They're not retarded because they can't. There's guns out there I don't shoot as well as others. I prefer my LEGION 226 or my HK's to my Glocks, but I still like and appreciate the glocks in my inventory/plan to buy a few more. I will also say, someone saying they "CAN'T shoot a glock" is silly to me. I'll entertain "I can't shoot it as well as other guns" all day long, but CAN'T is a very strong statement. Choose not to, I shoot other stuff better or I just don't like them, is completely fine at the end of the day.

Also that was smart with the comment about AR's and grips........some of you should self reflect on that.

[JimLob65]

I have never shot a Glock but have checked them out while looking for a compact pistol for possible concealed carry. Having shot mostly tda pistols or SAO versions of the same, mainly various SIGs and Beretta 92s I do find the grip angle a bit awkward. Nothing I don't think I couldn't become acclimated to with practice, but still a bit awkward nonetheless.

The reason I passed on the Glock was that the relatively squared off grip was really uncomfortable for me, especially for my right ring finger. I have been a mechanic for about 35 years and my hands are beat up as a result. On the base of both my ring fingers where the finger joins my hand I have a knot, maybe a ruptured tendon?? Anything that has any type of a 'corner' or squared off grip just doesn't work for me as it digs into that knot. I doubt I will ever own a Glock as a result.

[Bucky]

If a person is complaining about the grip angle then they’re either VERY INTIMATELY familiar with another platform, not a very good shooter, and/or they’re severely physically handicapped/compromised.


I really wish this nonesense would stop. Just because someone doesn’t like something, doesn’t mean they aren’t capable of using it. I know one guy who doesn’t like the grip angle, and he have multiple national titles, with 1911s, revolvers, and 2 completely different striker fired handguns. I would not associate him with any of the 3 accusatory labels you suggest.




Glocks aren’t holding me back from being a higher class USPSA shooter. I just need more practice to be a better shooter.


I’ve seen people change platforms and improve their shooting ability in a competitive environment, as well as the reverse happen. Probably the most extreme example would be someone shooting a Glock in Limited or open, and then moving to an STI. I’m NOT saying the gun alone is a contributing factor, nor am I saying it’s even a big factor, but it most certainly does play a role.

[Slalom.45]

Okay. I've been shooting more and more seriously for the past 7 years. Started out with my only pistol being a 1911. Very briefly through an XD now on to many Glocks. Progressed from totally lost to a concealed carry class to IDPA and now into USPSA full tilt. I have shot little else but a Glock 17 or 34 for some time. Taking a little competitive break over the holidays so I broke out my 1911 and went to the range "just for fun" this week. Took a Colt Diamondback just for kicks as well.

Observations. (For me at least)
It's not the grip shape, it's the texture. (missed my sandpaper)
Shooting slow it doesn't matter.
Grip angle for sure matters on the draw.
I didn't miss the 1911 trigger like I thought I would.

[Duelist]

Thanks for the clarification. I knew that the tab gave protection when reholstering but had no idea that it was a drop safety.

Get an SCD from Tom Jones, install it, and put your thumb on it when holstering. Glock holstering safely made easy. I never owned a Glock until the SCD came out.

[Tom Duffy]

For me, HKs, 1911s, and revolvers all naturally point at the target when I draw. Glocks point high. Could I adapt with more practice? I'm sure. But why bother?
I disliked shooting my daughter's Glock 17 and the 26 was my single least fun gun to shoot, ever. On the other hand, my Glock 43 fits my hand well, probably because the small grips fills just the right place in my palm. If you're not constrained by work requirements, you may as well shoot something that feels right rather than feel you must master something else.

[Bucky]

If you're not constrained by work requirements, you may as well shoot something that feels right rather than feel you must master something else.

Truth!

[spinmove_]

I really wish this nonesense would stop. Just because someone doesn’t like something, doesn’t mean they aren’t capable of using it. I know one guy who doesn’t like the grip angle, and he have multiple national titles, with 1911s, revolvers, and 2 completely different striker fired handguns. I would not associate him with any of the 3 accusatory labels you suggest.




I’ve seen people change platforms and improve their shooting ability in a competitive environment, as well as the reverse happen. Probably the most extreme example would be someone shooting a Glock in Limited or open, and then moving to an STI. I’m NOT saying the gun alone is a contributing factor, nor am I saying it’s even a big factor, but it most certainly does play a role.

If they have national titles then I would say they fall into the first category that I listed. Being intimately familiar with other platforms isn’t a bad thing and I never said it was. It’s just different and that’s ok.

I’m also not saying other people can’t switch platforms and see an improvement. In that statement I’m simply saying that *I* am not held back by Glocks at this time. Me switching platforms has nothing to do with performance and everything to do with perceived trigger attribute benefits and long term legislative planning.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[OlongJohnson]

My first centerfire pistol was a Gen3 G34. After a few range sessions, I realized that the undercut on the trigger guard was hitting my knuckle in just the right way to cause nerve damage. Numbness and tingling in the birdie finger that took 3-4 months to go away. Easy fix, I shaved some plastic and made the lump into a shallow ramp. But to this day, I won't do more than a magazine out of an unmodified G17/34 due to that issue. At ten rounds, it's obvious I need to stop.

I added a Grip Force Adapter and got it all dialed in, contouring it so it feels just right. Helped a little more with knuckle placement.

I kept the G34 around while I got into other stuff. Over the years, I found a deal on steel night sights and accumulated additional parts: Wayne's recommended Apex extractor and supporting OE parts, the upgraded ejector, NY1 spring, Gadget. Last summer, I decided it was time. Put it all together. Did a little deburring and smoothing on internal parts. Really like the NY1/- combo (see signature).

Dry fired for a few nights, then went to the range. Shot it OK. Did about four more nights of dry fire work with it. Realized I was still chasing the front sight on every presentation. Very annoying. I went to the safe and grabbed whatever was closest to the front. Happened to be a P220 that became a good deal when Gander Mountain dropped prices to 40 percent off. It was a "get around to it later" exploration. I had done zero training/practice with it. I tried a presentation. Instant, perfect sight picture. Same thing five more times. Went back to the safe and got a USP full size. Same thing. Perfect sight picture. Tried the G34. Chasing it.

That settled it for me. A week of work and still struggling up against zero work and perfect results on multiple other platforms. I probably could train to get results with the Glock eventually, but why? How much better would I be if I put that same effort into a platform that naturally works better for me?

I'd love to find someone with big hands who wants to buy a really nicely set up G34.

[fixer]

After seriously training with the gen 4 platform and a few gen 3s for the last 6 years, I've come to actually prefer the grip angle of a glock.

I've moved in to tda platforms for multitude of reasons but glock grip angle was exactly none of them.

While learning to shoot the glock platform the grip angle seemed to me to be a benefit instead of impediment.

[Bucky]

If they have national titles then I would say they fall into the first category that I listed. Being intimately familiar with other platforms isn’t a bad thing and I never said it was. It’s just different and that’s ok.


Agree to disagree then. I don’t see how someone who shoots and wins with so many different platforms, 1911s, revolvers, strikers, as mentioned, plus notable wins with both Sig and Beretta TDA gun’s, can. be described as “intimately familiar”.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I really wish this nonsense would stop. Just because someone doesn’t like something, doesn’t mean they aren’t capable of using it

That's a good point. I was differentiating (or tried to) between preference and shooting nuance vs. what I thought was the cliche of "I can't shoot a Glock because of a grip angle". "Can't" to me was a strong statement. I can't shoot my 642 as well as my 1911 but I can shoot my 642 reasonably. We have a reasonably sophisticated discussion here. On other more naive fora, I see the phrase as posturing to be one of the cool guys to announce they shoot a Cazookie XPS-94.

I don't like Mazda compacts but I can drive them.

[OlongJohnson]

I don't like Mazda compacts but I can drive them.

Now you're just wrong.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

It has to do with body and knees. Old with bad knees, getting in and out was ergonomically problematic. That's why I moved to a Forester. But I can drive it.

[Bucky]

That's a good point. I was differentiating (or tried to) between preference and shooting nuance vs. what I thought was the cliche of "I can't shoot a Glock because of a grip angle". "Can't" to me was a strong statement. I can't shoot my 642 as well as my 1911 but I can shoot my 642 reasonably. We have a reasonably sophisticated discussion here. On other more naive fora, I see the phrase as posturing to be one of the cool guys to announce they shoot a Cazookie XPS-94.

I don't like Mazda compacts but I can drive them.

I completely agree. Unfortunately, “can’t” can be vague in common speak. In the strictest sense of the term, it means unable to, which I’m sure 99.99 % of people that can shoot “a” handgun, actually can shoot the Glock. So then it becomes, define “can’t”. Can’t shoot it well? Can’t shoot is as well? Can’t shoot it comfortably because it gives you discomfort?

I also agree with your last point. Elsewhere, every time I say I don’t prefer a high bore axis, that instantly gets translated into I can’t shoot a high bore axis, which then gets translated into I just can’t shoot.

[RJ]

Me, 2014: "I can't shoot a Glock! The Grip Angle Sucks!"

Me, 2014-2017: Buys a succession of pistols to try and learn how to shoot better, because it must be the gun, right?

Me, 2017: (borrows MSparks909's Glock 19.5 and rings 8" steel at 25 yards) "Well, shit."

Me, 2018: Buys a Glock 19.5 and a 26.5. Installs Striker Control Devices (https://taudevgroup.myshopify.com/products/striker-control-device/) in both. Gets on with life.

[Bucky]

Me, 2017: (borrows MSparks909's Glock 19.5 and rings 8" steel at 25 yards) "Well, shit."

Me, 2018: Buys a Glock 19.5 and a 26.5. Installs Striker Control Devices (https://taudevgroup.myshopify.com/products/striker-control-device/) in both. Gets on with life.

Lucky for your wallet, you didn’t borrow a nice 1911. ;)

[olstyn]

Get an SCD from Tom Jones, install it, and put your thumb on it when holstering. Glock holstering safely made easy. I never owned a Glock until the SCD came out.

This. I've never owned a Glock (sacrilege, I know, sue me), but if I ever buy one, it'll get an SCD before it ever gets near a holster.

[spinmove_]

Agree to disagree then. I don’t see how someone who shoots and wins with so many different platforms, 1911s, revolvers, strikers, as mentioned, plus notable wins with both Sig and Beretta TDA gun’s, can. be described as “intimately familiar”.

Probably because they practice with all of those different platforms and all or most point naturally FOR THEM. If they pick up a Glock and the front sight is not where they’re expecting it to be, then why spend the time and energy on it? This just says to me that it’s a situation of “one of these things is not like the others” and that’s ok.

Other people can pick up a Glock and present naturally then pick up something else (like a Beretta 92 or CZ) and also present naturally. Those people either simply interface with those pistols differently or they’re more familiar with those platforms.

I’m ok with agreeing to disagree, but there are A LOT of elements that go into how a person interfaces with XYZ pistol or even gun in general.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Savage Hands]

There’s a ton of choices out there besides Glock, pick what works for you and move on. Nobody cares enough why you did so IMO and Glock won’t miss you. /rant

No that it matters but I tried many different types of handguns over 20 years and keep coming back to “perfection”
I personally have a love and hate relationship with Glock but their latest models is sucking me back in completely.

[JAH 3rd]

I don't like Glock, I think they're ugly and I have to work to shoot them. That being said, I have been a police officer since 1996 and every agency I've worked for issues Glocks. After years of fighting it, this year I gave up and accepted it. I shoot Glocks well and I'm stuck with them. Grip angle doesn't seem to bother me but if I carry something different, like a FNX40 I had and then shoot my duty weapon, I screw it up. Since I'm most likely to get involved in a shooting with a Glock, I want to shoot it well. So the FNX40 went bye bye and I'm trying to be a Glock lover.

So who doesn't have a choice as to which firearm to carry? Usually law enforcement, military, or an organization which issues its own weapons. Strictly talking handguns, generally most agencies issue the same handgun to everyone. Practice usually makes one proficient with the issued handgun. However if one could purchase their own handgun within a required caliber, I am sure there would be multiple brand handguns in those holsters. So why a particular chosen handgun? Brand name, cost, quality of firearm, size, weight, and just personal preference hopefully from trying various firearms.

So I am one who doesn't slice and dice as to why someone chooses a particular handgun. You and I carry what we carry for whatever reason and I accept that. Drive on! Enjoy what you carry.

This discussion happens also when someone asks, "What's the best self-defense ammo for my pistol?" Many answers, but one chooses a particular brand for whatever reason. Drive on!

In closing, the best feeling handgun in my hand is the S&W M&P 45 full-size 2.0 with the small backstrap. It fits best, period.

[JAH 3rd]

It has to do with body and knees. Old with bad knees, getting in and out was ergonomically problematic. That's why I moved to a Forester. But I can drive it.

I will be in the market for a new vehicle in the next year or two. Getting into and out of the vehicle will be my first priority. The driver's seat must be at butt level to achieve the desired result of easy in/out.

[willie]

We hear more Glock comments positive or negative because the brand is so widely issued and also frequently purchased for private use. In the post WW2 years of the 1950s and 60s, the vast majority of veterans talked shit about the 1911 because when they fired them in training, they could not shoot them accurately. Many had never fired a handgun.

[JSGlock34]

There is also a psychological component to all of this - if you don't think you can shoot a particular pistol well, you probably won't.

I think the more interesting question is at what point does a new shooter become able to recognize and accurately attribute material differences in performance to a change in equipment?

[Coyote41]

If you line the sights up and pull the trigger straight to the rear, you can make hits. It doesn’t matter if the gun is upside down and you are pulling the trigger with your little toe.

That being said, the grip angle is different so that when indexing the pistol does take an extra half-second when I haven’t been shooting them for a while. It’s not a problem with the Glock, however.

[LSP552]

I don’t like the Glock grip angle or ergonomics. That doesn’t stop me from carrying them and shooting reasonably well with them.

One factor about Glock grip angle that doesn’t get discussed much is related to carrying IWB in a typical CCW holster with a 15-20 degree FBI cant. At my best, my draw to first shot hit time was .9s - 1.0 on demand from concealment with a P226 in a Milt Spark Summer Special. I was always at least .1 more with a 3rd G17 or 34 and not as consistent with hits. I’m 6’3” with orangutan 35” sleeves and the setting a wrist angle early on the grip only goes so far with this carry mode.

The difference goes away with OWB and a straight drop holster. The angle doesn’t seem to mater to TO ME in this mode. It’s the FBI cant at 3:30 that the Glock angle makes just enough difference TO ME, to have a measurable effect.

[HCM]

There’s a ton of choices out there besides Glock, pick what works for you and move on. Nobody cares enough why you did so IMO and Glock won’t miss you. /rant

No that it matters but I tried many different types of handguns over 20 years and keep coming back to “perfection”
I personally have a love and hate relationship with Glock but their latest models is sucking me back in completely.

33785

[TMW Trav]

The last 30 plus years I have carried (just the handguns)

S&W Model 19 and or Colt Combat Commander
Sig P226, back then they were 9mm only and a S&W Model 60
Sig P220 45 ACP and S&W Model 39 9mm
Sig P229 40 and Sig P238 9mm
Glock 22 and Glock 27
Glock 19 and Glock 43
Glock 19 and S&W Shield 9
S&W Shield 9 and Beretta 950 BS 25ACP


There were more mixed in here and there and there was always an 870 and either a mini 14 and later an AR.

The point being, me and a lot of you like guns. Over the years I have had a lot of different guns and shot them just fine. Grip angle just wasn't in the equation.

[HCM]

In closing, the best feeling handgun in my hand is the S&W M&P 45 full-size 2.0 with the small backstrap. It fits best, period.

It feels best, but does it shoot /perform best ?

The Gen 4/5 Glocks feel best to me with no back strap but My best shooting performance is with the Medium back strap.

Similarly guns like the M&P, VP9, and P226 feel best to me but on a timer, when multiple shots are involved, guns with flat sided grips like Glocks, 1911s, Berettas perform best.

Feelings lie. Targets and timers don’t.

[JAH 3rd]

HCM, when I shot this pistol for the first time, I benched it from 7 yards. With Golden Saber 230 grain I kept the group within the size of a silver dollar. With these 65 year old eyes getting a consistent sight picture is a challenge. I was pleased with that grouping. With the M&P I feel like I am shooting a 10+1 1911 because the grip feels so close to my SA Loaded. I have over 800 rounds through it so far with no malfunctions. And the trigger pull is improved over the 1.0 I have. In fact on one outing, I shot close to 300 rounds of Golden Saber and PMC FMJ. The next day my hand sore. I thought I might be developing arthritis in my shooting hand. But the soreness went away and I decided it was from shooting that 300 rounds. I actually prefer shooting this M&P to my HK USP 45 full-size. The M&P feels so natural when I pick it up and that's why I prefer it over all my pistols right now. I am so pleased with the way the M&P not only feels in my hand, but how it performs!

[OlongJohnson]

IP226 feel best to me but on a timer, when multiple shots are involved, guns with flat sided grips like Glocks, 1911s, Berettas perform best.

Have you messed with Hogue G10 grips on the P226? They are flatter on the sides than the factory molded plastic grips, with larger radius on the back. I like them a lot better.

The Hogue rubber grips are a whole different thing, notably bigger. I'm not a huge fan.

[HCM]

Have you messed with Hogue G10 grips on the P226? They are flatter on the sides than the factory molded plastic grips, with larger radius on the back. I like them a lot better.

The Hogue rubber grips are a whole different thing, notably bigger. I'm not a huge fan.

I do too. I have a set on a P229. I was running them on the P229 at work until I switched to the Glock.

[HCM]

HCM, when I shot this pistol for the first time, I benched it from 7 yards. With Golden Saber 230 grain I kept the group within the size of a silver dollar. With these 65 year old eyes getting a consistent sight picture is a challenge. I was pleased with that grouping. With the M&P I feel like I am shooting a 10+1 1911 because the grip feels so close to my SA Loaded. I have over 800 rounds through it so far with no malfunctions. And the trigger pull is improved over the 1.0 I have. In fact on one outing, I shot close to 300 rounds of Golden Saber and PMC FMJ. The next day my hand sore. I thought I might be developing arthritis in my shooting hand. But the soreness went away and I decided it was from shooting that 300 rounds. I actually prefer shooting this M&P to my HK USP 45 full-size. The M&P feels so natural when I pick it up and that's why I prefer it over all my pistols right now. I am so pleased with the way the M&P not only feels in my hand, but how it performs!

To clarify my question, have you shot you M&P with each of the three different grip inserts and compared the results ?

Do you shoot better with the small, med or large insert ? The results may surprise you.

The M&P has its strengths and in my experience one if those is its is the softest shooting 40 and 45 caliber service pistol .

[JAH 3rd]

I use the small grip insert on both the 1.0 and 2.0 M&P 45. Haven’t tried the other inserts and don’t plan to. I did put the others on just to see how they felt but didn’t like the fit to my hand.

[olstyn]

I use the small grip insert on both the 1.0 and 2.0 M&P 45. Haven’t tried the other inserts and don’t plan to. I did put the others on just to see how they felt but didn’t like the fit to my hand.

The first time I started messing around with swapping backstraps on my Walther P99c, I liked the feel of the small one better than the large one, but when I went to the range, it was clear that I shot better with the large one. Obviously your mileage may vary, but it could be worthwhile to try swapping them around and running some back to back drills.

[JAH 3rd]

Thanks for sharing your experience! I will give that some thought.

[JAH 3rd]

I can see how a larger grip insert would give you more real estate to hold onto. And that could translate into more control and better shooting.

[JAH 3rd]

So after trying the grip inserts on the 2.0 I am going to give the medium-large a try.

[ubervic]

I was one of the many people who complained that I could not shoot a Glock well. That opinion was based on firing a under 20 rounds when handed a Glock years ago when I was running a MP9FS. It dawned on me only within the past year, when a Glock 17 landed in my lap, that while I had to adapt my grip to accommodate the Glock grip angle, I can shoot it pretty well. I like it mainly for how rugged and versatile it is. It's easy to strip down and replace parts on it, and the cross-compatibility with magazines and other parts is very appealing.

But I still shoot other pistols better, namely SIGs and M&Ps. I remain convinced that the Glock grip angle does work against me more than the grip angle on the other guns. Don't have much trigger time at all on Berettas, but am pretty sure I'd dig that over a Glock, too.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

In a year of two, it will be I can't shoot a Glock 43X or 48 because ...

Anyway, I'm dithering whether a 10 round single stack gives me anything beyond my G26 which I shoot well. The 26 is wider but shorter in the grip for concealment. I also have lots of compatible higher cap mags but I never really use them in the 26 for carry. I have this notion, that I want the grip to be constant with reloads.

Of course, one just buy one of these because ...

I think I like my idea of a single stack 45 GAP revival (shoot me before I propose something again). 8 shots + 1 and slim. That would be a nice gun for ban state. Sigh.

[GAP]

In a year of two, it will be I can't shoot a Glock 43X or 48 because ...

Anyway, I'm dithering whether a 10 round single stack gives me anything beyond my G26 which I shoot well. The 26 is wider but shorter in the grip for concealment. I also have lots of compatible higher cap mags but I never really use them in the 26 for carry. I have this notion, that I want the grip to be constant with reloads.

Of course, one just buy one of these because ...

I think I like my idea of a single stack 45 GAP revival (shoot me before I propose something again). 8 shots + 1 and slim. That would be a nice gun for ban state. Sigh.

I am kind of at the same roadblock right now.. my G26.5 is the best shooting Glock that I own and even though it is slightly thicker, the short grip makes carrying it a breeze. I also benefit from the fact that I have absolutely zero trouble shooting guns with only two fingers on the grip. The hump on the G26 wedges itself perfectly in my hand. I’ve also heard this being the case for people who hate the hump on the larger frames.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Yeah, I was thinking of redoing the sights on my G19. I find myself carrying the 26 much more than the 19 and shooting the G4 17 at matches as I really like the gun. I might ditch the 19 for something? Keep the mags for my Ruger PCC. I have a slew of 10 round G19 mags that I bought cheap when the AWB was lifted and they became silly except for the new bans on the state levels. I could use them when traveling with the carbine.

I got the 19, second Gen cheap as a refurbished gun ditched by some guy who needed the money. So I wouldn't take a big loss on selling it.

Such decisions.

[MGW]

It's not that I can't shoot Glocks well it's just that I'm very likely to find shots left of where I called them. That frustrates me to no end. It's a shooter issue but the feedback isn't there so that I can figure out how to correct it.

[JV_]

FWIW: I tend to throw shots left with the Glock Compact/Sub-Compact 'target' trigger, the one with a stepped face. With the flat faced one from full sized guns the problem is greatly reduced.

[LSP552]

Anyway, I'm dithering whether a 10 round single stack gives me anything beyond my G26 which I shoot well. The 26 is wider but shorter in the grip for concealment. I also have lots of compatible higher cap mags but I never really use them in the 26 for carry. I have this notion, that I want the grip to be constant with reloads....

I’m guessing the primary difference will be manipulation, such as draw speed, securing a grip in the holster, reloads, etc. In terms of pure shooting, the 26 doesn’t give up much at all to the larger guns.

I’m sure I will end up with one at some point but I’m not sure it will be a 26 replacement.

[psalms144.1]

On the G26 vs G43X/G48 debate, that's a no brainer for me. If you shoot the G26 well, and can reload it well enough (remember the thread where we as a collective hive mind decided reloading is a pretty unimportant skill, in the grand scheme of things, because there are VERY few incidents in which a private citizen needed to reload during a gunfight?), then why the actual fuck would you want a pistol that's harder to conceal with the same capacity that can't be fed off your existing full capacity magazines?

I get the "new shiny, WANT" response - I feel it all the time. But, if you DON'T live in a magazine retarded, I mean restricted state, and you don't have issues shooting/running the G26, then why bother? Keep in mind, from a concealment perspective, these new Glocks are the same length in the grip as a G19, and only .1" thinner in the grip...

If you're stuck in a ban state, or you live in Canada, then either/both make sense if you HAVE TO have a GLOCK. For me, I'll stick with what I've got - G19, G26, and P365...

[Zman001]

A g19 gen 4 was the first handgun i ever bought. It required a bit of work (WSD HRED, Apex FRE, and trigger guard undercut)

At first i didn't like it, so i moved on to a PPQ. I then got a G19X and i realized i was the weak point, not the gun.

As for everyone else, a vast majority of shooters struggle to make hits at 15 yards, even with high end 1911's, yet will still say how they can't shoot a glock well due to X, Y, or Z.

[JHC]

On the G26 vs G43X/G48 debate, that's a no brainer for me. If you shoot the G26 well, and can reload it well enough (remember the thread where we as a collective hive mind decided reloading is a pretty unimportant skill, in the grand scheme of things, because there are VERY few incidents in which a private citizen needed to reload during a gunfight?), then why the actual fuck would you want a pistol that's harder to conceal with the same capacity that can't be fed off your existing full capacity magazines?

I get the "new shiny, WANT" response - I feel it all the time. But, if you DON'T live in a magazine retarded, I mean restricted state, and you don't have issues shooting/running the G26, then why bother? Keep in mind, from a concealment perspective, these new Glocks are the same length in the grip as a G19, and only .1" thinner in the grip...

If you're stuck in a ban state, or you live in Canada, then either/both make sense if you HAVE TO have a GLOCK. For me, I'll stick with what I've got - G19, G26, and P365...

I'm not clear why there is a debate. Some people want what jumps out of this picture is all.

I've been EDC'ing a G45 for a few months since I shot it. Because of the shooting.

But I can tell the comfort difference IWB of a 43.

If the history of the 42 nobody wanted or the 43 that came too late is any guide, about half the Glock faithful will have one of the new models. Need, per se, probably not. 😉

33906

[JAH 3rd]

To clarify my question, have you shot you M&P with each of the three different grip inserts and compared the results ?

Do you shoot better with the small, med or large insert ? The results may surprise you.

The M&P has its strengths and in my experience one if those is its is the softest shooting 40 and 45 caliber service pistol .
Well I finally got to the range today with my M&P 2.0 full-size 45acp. With this conversation in mind, I went from the small which feels good in the hand, to the medium-large. The M-L grip gives more to hold onto. I also liked the way this grip felt in the hand. I shot 130 rounds of 230g Golden Saber from a seated position from the 7 yard line. I shot from a rest. This is how I shot for a group with the small insert on my first outing. With the M-L grip my groups were just a tad smaller, but I felt my shooting was more consistent as evidenced by shooting several groups. I know 7 yards isn't much but it is what it is.

I guess I was initially hesitant changing from a small grip to a larger size. I didn't want to turn the grip into a Glock...haha. While larger, the M_L grip is what I am sticking with. Thanks for the tip HCM! I am up to 1,010 trouble-free rounds now.

[navyman8903]

It's not that I can't shoot Glocks well it's just that I'm very likely to find shots left of where I called them. That frustrates me to no end. It's a shooter issue but the feedback isn't there so that I can figure out how to correct it.

I've found it's my strong hand grip that does it. I have to put less meat of my hand on the Glock to correct that. For me anyway. That's with my trigger finger placement and how my hands are shaped. I'm not sure it'll work for you. I really have to work hard to shoot the Glocks as well as my HK's and SIG's that point/shoot effortlessly for me. I still love my G34s and the G17. But I have to work at it to shoot them well.

But after shooting a bunch with them I've found it's the grip that fucks it up. When I correct it, then I shoot just as straight, centered and tight as the other guns. Switching back to the HK's and SIG's doesn't jack up my accuracy, but going the other way does. I usually have to only run a Glock or shoot it first. The grips on the other guns just dunks on the Glock.

[medic15al]

I bet everyone here that runs an AR15 at all has changed out the stock A2 grip for something with a different angle/feel.

Just saying

You're correct, I put A1 pistol grips on all of mine. The finger nub aggravates the hell out of my fingers.

[Irelander]

I have a bent trigger finger. Shooting Glocks makes my trigger finger hurt due to the tip of my finger hitting the bottom of the trigger guard and the base of my finger rubbing against the frame. When I got my HK P2000sk I found it much more comfortable to shoot.

[0ddl0t]

Bringing this post back from the dead...

I have small to medium hands and just cannot seem to ever get comfortable holding gen 3 glocks (99% of the available glocks in CA). I shoot other pistols well and the glock well enough, but after a few shots I'm always having to readjust my grip. And every time I readjust my grip, my POI changes pretty dramatically (~2" at 10 yards with glock 35).

Typical sequence:

pick up the gun with my natural grip not really thinking about anything and shoot 3-5 slow fire shots at 10 yards. Hits ~2" high in a 1-2" group.

Set the gun down, wipe sweat from my hands, pick up the gun again and this time think about really crushing my support hand grip. Shots hit on the bullseye in a 1-2" group before my hands get less steady and the group opens up.

Set the gun down, wipe hands, flex fingers, push some brass out of the way of my feet, and pick up the gun again trying to duplicate the 2nd string. Shots start hitting 2" high left with the group opening up to maybe 2"

Set the gun down, repeat all of the above rituals, and try again: Shots now trending 2" low and left with the group growing to maybe 3"


I guess my point is that with glocks I feel I really have to choke the shit out of the grip to get the hits where I want, but the longer I do that the worse I shoot. I don't need to strangle 1911s, Sigs, XDs, kahrs, etc - and that allows me to shoot to poa longer. I mean if anyone reads this and can recognize "oh that's where you're going wrong" - I'd love to fix it. But as it is when I pick up a glock I feel like I have to fight it.

[spinmove_]

Bringing this post back from the dead...

I have small to medium hands and just cannot seem to ever get comfortable holding gen 3 glocks (99% of the available glocks in CA). I shoot other pistols well and the glock well enough, but after a few shots I'm always having to readjust my grip. And every time I readjust my grip, my POI changes pretty dramatically (~2" at 10 yards with glock 35).

Typical sequence:

pick up the gun with my natural grip not really thinking about anything and shoot 3-5 slow fire shots at 10 yards. Hits ~2" high in a 1-2" group.

Set the gun down, wipe sweat from my hands, pick up the gun again and this time think about really crushing my support hand grip. Shots hit on the bullseye in a 1-2" group before my hands get less steady and the group opens up.

Set the gun down, wipe hands, flex fingers, push some brass out of the way of my feet, and pick up the gun again trying to duplicate the 2nd string. Shots start hitting 2" high left with the group opening up to maybe 2"

Set the gun down, repeat all of the above rituals, and try again: Shots now trending 2" low and left with the group growing to maybe 3"


I guess my point is that with glocks I feel I really have to choke the shit out of the grip to get the hits where I want, but the longer I do that the worse I shoot. I don't need to strangle 1911s, Sigs, XDs, kahrs, etc - and that allows me to shoot to poa longer. I mean if anyone reads this and can recognize "oh that's where you're going wrong" - I'd love to fix it. But as it is when I pick up a glock I feel like I have to fight it.

It’s pretty hard to diagnose grip without being there in person or at least having pictures for reference.

That said, Glocks do generally seem to need additional force to be put into the grip and the Gen 3 frame doesn’t exactly the most friction. It almost sounds like you’re not getting enough surface area contact with your support hand. Where is your index point on your support hand index finger to build your freestyle grip?


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[FNFAN]

If you want something that feels good in your hands, date Shakira. Otherwise get yourself a Glock 19 and practice.:p

[TCinVA]

I don't get it. What does it mean empirically? A person with handgun experience picks up a Glock and cannot make reasonable hits at usual distances?


For me it means when I pick up a Glock, grip it as I normally grip other pistols, and use the same trigger finger placement that I use on other pistols, I shoot distinctly left of point of aim. The difference is an inch or two at closer ranges, enough to push shots outside the black of a bullseye at 25 yards.

This is visible in dryfire as I can watch the front sight jump to the left just a split second after the trigger breaks...which means it's happening while the bullet is still in the barrel when shooting in live fire.

This is so well established that Heinie actually mills the notch in their Glock sights off-center to compensate for it.

Todd Green, the guy who founded this forum, experienced it, too.



I can shoot a Glock or 1911 with a good deal of accuracy.


I can shoot any handgun likely better than 99% of the population. But even so, there are still some guns that I perform better with than others.

A P30, for instance, poses no such challenges for me. Because the grip is significantly better I can grip the gun and press the trigger and there's no lateral push at the moment of ignition. I own dozens of handguns and the only ones I really see this phenomenon with are the Glocks. I can shoot a Glock better than most...but I can take one of my other pistols and shoot them better than the Glock because they fit me better.

I have coached hundreds of people using Glocks over the years to alter their approach to gripping the gun to get better performance out of it. Not in terms of improving their grip in general, but specific workarounds for the Glock that I wouldn't be suggesting otherwise.

Glock has its virtues, but the ergonomics of the pistol are not among them.

I have been using a Gen5 G17 as my primary gun for most of this year. By any reasonable standard I shoot it extremely well. I cleaned the FBI qual under Tom Given's instruction easily, shot a 295 out of 300 on the Rangemaster Advanced Bullseye Course, regularly shoot 98 or better in the 5 yard roundup, and shot the Rangemaster Advance Instructor course of fire with an expert rating.

I also got so tired of fighting with the fucking thing that I drifted my optic and my iron sights to compensate for the lateral push I get when shooting at speed. I just offset the sight to the left when I'm shooting in a slower more deliberate fashion.

While you can easily do all kinds of things to a Glock, changing its grip is the one thing you can't really do without significant investment. And apart from the sights, that's the one thing that really needs to be changed. Most Glocks don't need new barrels or triggers and the like, but their grip could sure use some work.

If you are one of the happy few that a Glock works great for, happy day.

If you are one of the many who can't shoot well anyway, you are unlikely to notice a difference in your performance with anything.

If you know what you are doing and you aren't one of the lucky few who falls within Gaston Glock's ergonomic reich, then you probably find that you can perform better with other designs.

And in my case, the other designs probably don't slice the fuck out of you when you shoot them, either.

In general it's a bad idea to trust Austrians with visions of "perfection" and global domination.

[Mike C]

If this has been covered disregard. I didn’t take time to read through the whole thread, too much bourbon tonight at dinner. For me grip angle does affect trigger interface and has a direct effect on exactly how precise I can be with a given gun/system at 25 yards and beyond to which I will blame by lack of ability. I shoot everything about the same at 18-20 yards or less accuracy and speed wise regardless of system. There are differences which are manifested by types of triggers and how they must be manipulated which translates to faster or slower split times based on what I would consider to be acceptable accuracy, (into a B-8). Sometimes I think people are speaking to what I am saying but lack prober verbiage, other times, (more often than not I think) they are speaking from sheer ignorance/lack of ability and or knowledge/training. Frankly l, I’m not sure if they are just tying to sound cool and I will acknowledge there are gun store commandos that espouse bullshit just to sell guns.

[0ddl0t]

It almost sounds like you’re not getting enough surface area contact with your support hand. Where is your index point on your support hand index finger to build your freestyle grip?
Maybe I grip my support hand backwards because really I index my support thumb basal carpometacarpal against my strong thumb's metacarpophalangeal and then wrap my support fingers around my strong fingers & the lower trigger guard.

https://www.assh.org/portals/1/Images/anatomy_images/Joints-Thumb-Inter.jpg

[spinmove_]

Maybe I grip my support hand backwards because really I index my support thumb basal carpometacarpal against my strong thumb's metacarpophalangeal and then wrap my support fingers around my strong fingers & the lower trigger guard.

https://www.assh.org/portals/1/Images/anatomy_images/Joints-Thumb-Inter.jpg

I would argue that your index is less pistol frame agnostic than other index points. But since I can’t see YOUR hands on an example frame, I’m completely guessing in the dark.

I would suggest trying the following location that I’m pointing at on my own finger as an index point underneath the trigger guard and rolling your grip in place. When hand is in place, clamp down hard and see if that works better.

I find this index to be pretty pistol frame agnostic as I’m able to get maximum surface area contact with various frames (Glock, Beretta, 1911, CZ, SIG).

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190724/d7bc332812cda5bc94be273268eeefa0.jpg


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[ASH556]

It seems to me like there are 2 different versions of "Glock grip angle" being discussed here. One (the left bias thing) actually has more to do with hand size, finger length, and trigger interface. The other is the actual angle of the grip and whether the gun "points high" or not for the shooter.

I probably don't have as many training badges or rounds fired as TCinVA , but I do have more than a few thousand rounds through Glocks and other pistols as well. Also, regarding some of the performance metric qualifiers he mentioned:

Rangemaster Bullseye, 297, 298, or 299/300 depending upon who you ask, with a stock G45:
https://pistol-forum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=34560&d=1548440355

25yd 3x5 Freestyle, stock G19:
https://i.imgur.com/mv52nvNl.jpg

25yd B8 Freestyle, stock G45:
https://i.imgur.com/BWixeE2l.jpg

3:00 IWB concealed FAST w/G45. Multiple runs including a 4.94 clean. Note the lack of left bias even running at speed:
https://i.imgur.com/EVsjN3Vl.jpg

Now, to address part one of the question: Left Bias. I do have my rear sights drifted slightly right of center. I'd be more inclined to buy that it was something off in my trigger press were it not for the fact that whether it's 7yds or 25yds, fast or slow, I'm still getting center hits. Furthermore, even in shooting WHO I still get the same POI. If it was my right trigger finger pushing shots left, it should reverse in shooting WHO, right? The fact that with the same sight alignment, and same POA, I'm getting the same POI, seems to kill this theory.

Now, on part about "pointing high" I have come to agree with that 100%. When I switched to Beretta only for a month (2,500 rounds) earlier this year, I initially found the Beretta to point low for me. That's carryover from index from years of shooting Glocks. Conversely, when I put the Beretta down and picked the Glock back up, guess what???? The Glock pointed high! Amazing! So yes, a Glock points high for me...so what? Shoot the sights. You'll still hit what you need to. And also, within 200 rounds, my index shifted so that the Glock again presented correctly working at speed out of the holster.

[MGW]

A 9mm Glock is the only pistol I've ever wanted to pitch downrange. They baffle me. If I feel myself make a bad shot or let my mechanics breakdown then so be it. Glocks just don't give me the feedback I need to figure them out. I can go check a target after a course of fire and wonder WTF just happened. I don't know if that's operator error or grip angle or what but I'm pretty much done with them.

[Thy.Will.Be.Done]

A 9mm Glock is the only pistol I've ever wanted to pitch downrange. They baffle me. If I feel myself make a bad shot or let my mechanics breakdown then so be it. Glocks just don't give me the feedback I need to figure them out. I can go check a target after a course of fire and wonder WTF just happened. I don't know if that's operator error or grip angle or what but I'm pretty much done with them.

You're just holding it wrong, Glock is perfection after all... :rolleyes:

This was my experience with Glock 17 Gen 3/4, I just could not get them to work with any consistency. I have midget fingers though, so that may have something to do with it. I think I'd probably fare better with them now, but I've sworn them off after dealing with their Customer Service not doing anything to fix the ejection problems.

[Dave T]

In "The Interview" DB said we humans are adaptive creatures, as he hold up a semi auto and a revolver. He then suggests learning to do both. Forgive my rather casual interpretation of what you said Darryl but I think I got the gist of it correct.

OK, so if we can train ourselves to go from a semi DA/SA, DAO, or SA, to a DA revolver, then back again how is it beyond mankind's ability to learn to shoot a friggin' Glock?

Dave

[Guinnessman]

TCinVA

Which grip combo do you use for the P30?

In my limited amount of rounds thru a G45, I feel that the flat sides of the grip, plus no finger grooves, help the gun stay firmly gripped in my hands. I think the beaver tail helps as well.

I will be able to compare the G45 and P30 when my range finally opens up. :mad: This summer range closure is driving me nuts.:mad:

[Papa Bear]

People prefer lots of different pistols, for all sorts of reasons. Upon first exposure, there have been pistols I naturally shot better, and some I shot worse. Why? They aren’t the same guns. Pretty simple. Time on a platform is a pretty good equalizer for variables.

In 2019 there are a lot of good answers to the “gun for you.” If its a well made and reliable gun that fits the role you’re trying to fill well, shoot the piss out of it. Train with it. Dry fire with it. You’ll get good with it no matter what it is, so long as you’re not trying make an XXL gun fit an XS hand or vice versa.

Just one man’s opinion.

[MGW]

OK, so if we can train ourselves to go from a semi DA/SA, DAO, or SA, to a DA revolver, then back again how is it beyond mankind's ability to learn to shoot a friggin' Glock?

Dave

I wish I knew the answer to that.

[0ddl0t]

I would argue that your index is less pistol frame agnostic than other index points. But since I can’t see YOUR hands on an example frame, I’m completely guessing in the dark.

I would suggest trying the following location that I’m pointing at on my own finger as an index point underneath the trigger guard and rolling your grip in place. When hand is in place, clamp down hard and see if that works better.

I find this index to be pretty pistol frame agnostic as I’m able to get maximum surface area contact with various frames (Glock, Beretta, 1911, CZ, SIG).

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190724/d7bc332812cda5bc94be273268eeefa0.jpg


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I'd normally have my knuckle resting against the underside of the trigger guard, so I had to stretch my support arm/hand a bit farther forward to obtain your index. But it did seem to work better: decent group size just to the right of POA and I didn't feel the need to shift my grip around after a few shots. I'll keep experimenting...

[spinmove_]

I'd normally have my knuckle resting against the underside of the trigger guard, so I had to stretch my support arm/hand a bit farther forward to obtain your index. But it did seem to work better: decent group size just to the right of POA and I didn't feel the need to shift my grip around after a few shots. I'll keep experimenting...

Yes, indeed give that more time. I’ve found that, for me, while I don’t have the same thumb to thumb weld that I would have had with my support hand further back, the benefits of getting a more secure clamp on the left side of the gun with my support hand more than make up for it.


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[spinmove_]

In "The Interview" DB said we humans are adaptive creatures, as he hold up a semi auto and a revolver. He then suggests learning to do both. Forgive my rather casual interpretation of what you said Darryl but I think I got the gist of it correct.

OK, so if we can train ourselves to go from a semi DA/SA, DAO, or SA, to a DA revolver, then back again how is it beyond mankind's ability to learn to shoot a friggin' Glock?

Dave

It’s not. I think it’s a perfect storm of Glocks being one of the least ergonomically correct pistols on the market, people who don’t know how to shoot not knowing how to shoot, the amount of poor instruction on the fundamentals available, and how prolific Glocks are all contribute to this phenomenon.

Mankind can figure it out, we already have. That’s evidenced by people winning competitions and real gunfights with Glocks. Glocks are just difficult to work with from a human interface perspective and most people aren’t willing to put the time and effort into making it work or they simply don’t know that it can work, they just assume “Glocks just shoot left”. With all of the other more ergonomic platforms out there, I can’t really blame too many people for not wanting to go down that path.


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[claymore504]

I was Glock only when I first got into handguns (Gen 3 era). I refused to even give anything else a try. I was never good at shooting my Glocks though. Some of that was lack of training. I finally realized the Glock gen 3 just did not fit me. The grip was too big and I could not get proper trigger finger placement and pushed shots left. I also could not reach the controls and would shift the handgun around in my grip to operate it.

Then I tried other handguns, many others (FNS, FNX, M&P pre M2.0 and so on). I got away from Glocks right before the Gen 4 came out and never looked back. However, last year my LGS had a G19 gen 5, so I asked to check it out. As soon as I got it in my hand I realized I was not missing anything.

[Greg Bell]

Glocks do require a small amount of forward wrist rotation to level the sights, which if you are using said sights correctly the "grip angle" is likely only going to affect your initial presentation until you get a few reps in.


This is basically it. I have my own pistol range and I get down there to shoot 2-3 times a weeks. Sometimes I don't shoot my Glocks for a few months and I end up pointing high for roughly the first 50 rounds of draws...If I am doing timed drills. If I am just shooting bullseyes or trying to shoot slowfire groups it really isn't an issue. When I shoot my Berettas, 1911s, CZs, Smith and Wessons, BHP, etc I never really have this issue. But if I am in the mood to shoot Glocks for a while it goes away.

I think this ends up being the reason why so many novice to middle of the road Glock shooters dislike other guns. A lot of them have difficulty performing with other designs because they are acclimated to the Glock. Folks who shoot guns with a more 1911 grip angle (I think the vast majority of guns) have little difficulty floating between different models, but are a little weirded out by the Glock angle.


For me it means when I pick up a Glock, grip it as I normally grip other pistols, and use the same trigger finger placement that I use on other pistols, I shoot distinctly left of point of aim. The difference is an inch or two at closer ranges, enough to push shots outside the black of a bullseye at 25 yards.

This is visible in dryfire as I can watch the front sight jump to the left just a split second after the trigger breaks...which means it's happening while the bullet is still in the barrel when shooting in live fire.

I noticed this years ago and I figured out for me the solution was to give the trigger more finger. But again, this was unnecessary with other designs. Hilariously, my hand is so used to compensating for this when I grab a G17/19 my hand sort of makes the adjustment for me without me thinking about it.

[medic15al]

Glocks do point high for me, with the G43 and G48 less so than the other models. It is that damnable "hump" at the base of the backstrap that does it for me. I tried a fellow paramedic's gun, a Gen 4 G19, that had the hump reshaped flat and it was dead on for me.

Bear in mind I began shooting when I was 8 in 1978 (1878??) with a Browning Hi-Power and a Colt Commander, as well as a Colt SAA so I developed the shooting habits early on. I didn't shoot a Glock until 1996 for the first time!!

[Whirlwind06]

My biggest problem with glocks and Beretta 92s is after years of being mostly a revolver shooter I'm used to getting a lot of finger on the trigger. With my g41 and g17 I feel like I'm struggling to get consistent trigger pull. The g48 is a lot better for me. So I don't know if I'll do grip reductions or send them down to the road. The Beretta 92 with thin grips and WC short reach trigger is better, but I see a vertec frame in my future.

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[TCinVA]

TCinVA

Which grip combo do you use for the P30?


Small panel on the right side of the gun, medium backstrap, large panel on the left side.