Index, Recoil, Grip. Not the expected result.

[SC_Dave]

So at the range today I ran a drill (I forget the name) to see if my dot would return from whence it came after the shot. IE, fire one shot noting where the dot was when the shot broke compared to where the pistol/dot came back to rest after recoil. With every shot it was always a little higher, still in the window but slightly higher. I gleaned from this the pistol was moving in my hand (though I could not feel it) So, I tightened my grip even more, not to the point of convulsing but pretty damn tight. Same result. So, I backed off my grip and ran the drill again. Now it's difficult to convey an amount of grip but it was less than when I run say a Bill Drill. The pistol/dot returned back to the same place after every shot with less grip tension.

I'm perplexed by this. Has anyone else had this experience? Can anyone give me an explanation?

G17-5
Trijicon RMR

David

[miller_man]

Kwasnsik Kim (USPSA) has been talking on a few podcasts about just this thing lately.

Firearms nation and Ben Stoegers podcasts.

[Doc_Glock]

I also heard Eric Grauffel speak about bit having too much grip pressure on a podcast recently. Surprised me.

[Sauer Koch]

So at the range today I ran a drill (I forget the name) to see if my dot would return from whence it came after the shot. IE, fire one shot noting where the dot was when the shot broke compared to where the pistol/dot came back to rest after recoil. With every shot it was always a little higher, still in the window but slightly higher. I gleaned from this the pistol was moving in my hand (though I could not feel it) So, I tightened my grip even more, not to the point of convulsing but pretty damn tight. Same result. So, I backed off my grip and ran the drill again. Now it's difficult to convey an amount of grip but it was less than when I run say a Bill Drill. The pistol/dot returned back to the same place after every shot with less grip tension.

I'm perplexed by this. Has anyone else had this experience? Can anyone give me an explanation?

G17-5
Trijicon RMR

David

Was your accuracy better, worse, or same? I’ve relaxed my grip while shooting my 226 on 5-10 DA shots, and seen an increase in accuracy, which was surprising. I just pulled the trigger a little smoother & quicker, as if I didn’t care, and I was shocked at the result.

[CCT125US]

This is one example of why I occasionally shoot with a laser. It allows you to see things you may not be aware of. Good on you for determining what works for you.

[SC_Dave]

Was your accuracy better, worse, or same? I’ve relaxed my grip while shooting my 226 on 5-10 DA shots, and seen an increase in accuracy, which was surprising. I just pulled the trigger a little smoother & quicker, as if I didn’t care, and I was shocked at the result.

With the somewhat relaxed grip I shot 7 rounds at 3 yards and fast as I could. Not on a timer but I'm guessing from past experience around .20 splits. I ended with one ragged hole that I did not measure or snap a pic of but it was 1.5-2.0 inches IIRC. I may still have the target I'll check when I get home.

[randyflycaster]

Less grip pressure is the main point of this book:

https://www.amazon.com/Perfect-Pistol-Shot-Albert-League-ebook/dp/B0793BRP7P/ref=sr_1_5?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1546269837&sr=1-5&keywords=pistol+shooting+books

I am not saying he is right, but I don't find shooting very enjoyable when I use a lot of grip pressure, and I also l find it very tiring.

Randy

[AJZ]

Not uncommon at all, but can be perplexing. Often the answer of "grip harder" is given for any issues related to recoil/grip/tracking, and that is often incorrect, IMO. We speak a lot about keeping elbows unlocked to act as a suspension system, but when it comes to grip almost everyone wants death grips and hard locks, which has quite the opposite effect from what I've seen, especially with harder recoiling guns (.40, .45, 10mm, etc.). Using a more "relaxed" grip, while still allowing the support hand to grip harder than the strong hand, allows the hands to adhere to the gun better. This allows them to move with the gun instead of staying rigid and staying stationary while the gun moves. Some have referred to it as a "pliable hands" technique. Allowing your hands to move with the gun in recoil allows the gun to track better than if you over grip the gun and essentially stop it from tracking properly and break from the torque of recoil. As with many things, there is a point where you can under grip the gun, but if the gun is tracking and the hands aren't separating, in a nutshell you're probably on the right track.

[SC_Dave]

Not uncommon at all, but can be perplexing. Often the answer of "grip harder" is given for any issues related to recoil/grip/tracking, and that is often incorrect, IMO. We speak a lot about keeping elbows unlocked to act as a suspension system, but when it comes to grip almost everyone wants death grips and hard locks, which has quite the opposite effect from what I've seen, especially with harder recoiling guns (.40, .45, 10mm, etc.). Using a more "relaxed" grip, while still allowing the support hand to grip harder than the strong hand, allows the hands to adhere to the gun better. This allows them to move with the gun instead of staying rigid and staying stationary while the gun moves. Some have referred to it as a "pliable hands" technique. Allowing your hands to move with the gun in recoil allows the gun to track better than if you over grip the gun and essentially stop it from tracking properly and break from the torque of recoil. As with many things, there is a point where you can under grip the gun, but if the gun is tracking and the hands aren't separating, in a nutshell you're probably on the right track.

Thank you AJ, this makes so much sense. At the range and for hours after, it made no sense to me at all. It seemed so contradictory to what I have heard and practiced.
David

[AJZ]

Thank you AJ, this makes so much sense. At the range and for hours after, it made no sense to me at all. It seemed so contradictory to what I have heard and practiced.
David

You bet Dave! Glad I could help!

[GJM]

I experimented with less grip tension today on a three target array, and my splits and transitions were significantly faster than when gripping the pistol harder.

[JAD]

I think once your trigger control is at a certain level the benefits of a death grip evaporate and suddenly Cooper was right again, hold it like a startled grouse.

[LSP552]

I think once your trigger control is at a certain level the benefits of a death grip evaporate and suddenly Cooper was right again, hold it like a startled grouse.

I’m also thinking that the light weight plastic pistols were the primary emphasis for a crush grip focus. I know that I need to grip my Glocks harder than my metal frame pistols for the same results.

And there isn’t a right answer, just the right answer for the individual.

[Mr_White]

I think once your trigger control is at a certain level the benefits of a death grip evaporate and suddenly Cooper was right again, hold it like a startled grouse.

I would not have thought to use that analogy. Nor do I have the frame of reference to get it. Oh the generational gap.

[mark7]

So at the range today I ran a drill (I forget the name) to see if my dot would return from whence it came after the shot.

How's your wrist, elbow and arm tension? Ron does a good job explaining here:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BStk1O2BjLM&t=12s

[GJM]

Similar to the trigger advice, where we say to try both more and less trigger finger, I am starting to think we should try more and less grip and evaluate what works better for you.

[Jay Cunningham]

I would not have thought to use that analogy. Nor do I have the frame of reference to get it.

Me neither.

[GNiner]

Similar to the trigger advice, where we say to try both more and less trigger finger, I am starting to think we should try more and less grip and evaluate what works better for you.

Back in the day, Matt Burkett used what he called a "timing drill" to shake out grip, stance and recoil control. Three targets at 15 yards. 1st target mag dump with a loose grip, 2nd target medium grip, 3rd target very hard grip. Then use 3 new targets, and do the same thing at a faster speed. You might do several iterations starting at 1.0 sec per shot, 0.5 per shot, and 0.25 per shot, etc. Make sure you label each target during the drill. Then evaluate the targets, looking for your new favorite grip at your best speed. This is your current match mode. At later practice days, perform the drill again starting at your current match speed. This drill is pretty ammo intensive, but the target patterns tend to point out what grip is working best for you.

[JAD]

Depends on the gun for me. I have to grip the crap out of Glocks because I don’t have enough trigger control to work the trigger well. I use less gripping force on a 1911 and generally shoot them a little bit better at distant targets shot quickly, but it’s not a big difference. It’s more a function of not having to remember to choke the Glock — but if I’m shooting regularly that’s not much of an issue either.

[jwhitt]

I think grip is evolutionary. What you think is backing off or "loose grip" is still harder than when you first started shooting. It is relative to your experience/time on your gun. Over time your grip actually gets harder because you become more aware of specifically where and how to grip your gun to track sights/dot and still leave your trigger finger relaxed. Eventually you can get to the point where you can be gripping too hard or too much in the wrong places or without the correct proportions with your strong/weak hand. At this point, you "relax your grip" and become confused because you shoot better. In reality, you are gripping just as hard as you once were, its just more refined now. I would say you are at that point and that's a good thing.

[Jay Cunningham]

I think grip is evolutionary. What you think is backing off or "loose grip" is still harder than when you first started shooting. It is relative to your experience/time on your gun. Over time your grip actually gets harder because you become more aware of specifically where and how to grip your gun to track sights/dot and still leave your trigger finger relaxed. Eventually you can get to the point where you can be gripping too hard or too much in the wrong places or without the correct proportions with your strong/weak hand. At this point, you "relax your grip" and become confused because you shoot better. In reality, you are gripping just as hard as you once were, its just more refined now. I would say you are at that point and that's a good thing.

I think you're onto something.

Also: people are continually victims of their own frame of reference. If a guy has big, powerful hands, his relatively relaxed grip will be vice-like compared to the guy (or girl) with small, weak hands.

[GJM]

I shot a USPSA match today, using my newer “more relaxed grip,” and had an excellent result with a perception of improved trigger control.