Glock Grip and Trigger Interface

[ASH556]

I'm not sure if this is a personal revolution or what. I thought I had progressed to a certain level of handgun proficiency and somewhere around the end of October the wheels fell off. I didn't make any conscious changes to what I was doing, but my performance fell off badly. Of course I blamed the gun. I did all manner of testing to validate that it was the gun's fault and not mine (some of which resulted in eating crow) , and ended up here:

https://i.imgur.com/j3G9FQRl.jpg

I reached out to my friend Kevin B. for some 1911 advice and his advice was esentially, "don't do it." There was much more to it and a lot of food for thought, which ended up with me re-centering the rear sights on my Gen 4 Glock 17's and doing a bunch of dry work messing with my grip and trigger finger placement. I also re-watched and re-read a bunch of Surf 's material on the subject. I went to the range today and began working my new-found "Interface" with good results as far as groups were concerned:

https://i.imgur.com/RvRt4rCl.jpg

2 different iterations of "10 Perfect Presses" @ 7yds Freestyle:
String #1 (10 rounds)
https://i.imgur.com/ykhPMW6l.jpg
String #2 (10 rounds)
https://i.imgur.com/OiBHz0Tl.jpg

Then a B8 @ 25 Freestyle:

https://i.imgur.com/cFLTfVwl.jpg

Seeing the vertical stringing, I decided to try a 1.5" orange dot for a finer POA:

https://i.imgur.com/6kdFUHil.jpg

But even so:

https://i.imgur.com/17cp9p3l.jpg

I even shot 10 EA SHO and WHO to try and see if there is consistent lateral bias (IE> Right-handed always hits left, Left-handed always hits right). I'm not sure if my one-handed shooting is good enough to really tell anything, but here are the pics anyway (layered in the following manner: Freestyle, SHO, WHO)

Freestyle:
https://i.imgur.com/ykhPMW6l.jpg
SHO:
https://i.imgur.com/5jDItFZl.jpg
WHO:
https://i.imgur.com/HVUto8Zl.jpg

So is there any input about how to crack the interface code and get myself to shoot centered with centered rear sights?

[HopetonBrown]

Why does it matter if your sights are centered?

Kyle Defoor shot my G34 after watching me struggle with 25, shot it himself, then drifted the sights over by 1 pen mark width.

https://youtu.be/bITxL4jNGlM

[psalms144.1]

I'm also in the "want to do it perfectly and can't" camp. My rear sights are drifted a couple of "pen mark widths" to the right to keep me centered at 25 yards.

I also find that as I age, my grip strength lessens, and I'm more impacted by cold weather, my groups drift more left. I have to consciously grip the dog snot out of my GLOCKs to stay centered, which is frustrating, but, a fact of life.

[LSP552]

I'm also in the "want to do it perfectly and can't" camp. My rear sights are drifted a couple of "pen mark widths" to the right to keep me centered at 25 yards.

I also find that as I age, my grip strength lessens, and I'm more impacted by cold weather, my groups drift more left. I have to consciously grip the dog snot out of my GLOCKs to stay centered, which is frustrating, but, a fact of life.

This ^.

Glocks are just different. I wish that wasn’t true but I have seen way too many folks suffer the consistency issues they bring to the table. They leave little room for error when it comes to grip. Unfortunately, my grip isn’t always perfect and my strength isn’t what it once was.

I’m having the internal debate about picking up a PPQ, VP9 or APX and see if I can shoot them more consistently.

Glock = Succubus

[Edster]

Some things that have helped me with being off laterally. Please don't assume I am an expert.

The front strap of a Glock is rather flat compared to many other pistols. Some other grips fall naturally into your middle knuckles (proximal interphalangeal joint), centering your knuckles under the triggerguard. The natural inclination to grip hard overcomes the inclination to align the middle knuckles straight and causes a Glock to twist inward. Just make a fist like you're gripping something hard and watch how the hand rotates.

Focus on centering the knuckles on the grip.

I have become a fan of the "lots of finger on the trigger" approach. I shoot a Glock more like a DA revolver than a single-action trigger now. It took me a while to adjust this. Combining this with paying attention to knuckle alignment, I seem to be doing better.

I really consider the shape of the double-stack Glock grip to be an impediment to natural good shooting. It just seems to encourage the muscles of the arm and hand to create the low-left problems almost everybody experiences. If some of the more narrow Glocks being talked about come to fruition, I would not be surprised to see a lot of folks saying they shoot them better.

[41magfan]

I guess I'm just a dumb-ass. I thought the object of shooting was hitting. I also thought adjustable sights were meant to accommodate the external variables, not the other way around.

Why is it perfectly OK to change the height of the front sight to accommodate a needed change in elevation but it's somehow a not OK to change the orientation of the rear sight to address a needed change in windage?

[spinmove_]

I guess I'm just a dumb-ass. I thought the object of shooting was hitting. I also thought adjustable sights were meant to accommodate the external variables, not the other way around.

Why is it perfectly OK to change the height of the front sight to accommodate a needed change in elevation but it's somehow a not OK to change the orientation of the rear sight to address a needed change in windage?

Because most people who suck at shooting buy a Glock, shoot way low and left, push the rear sight almost out of the dovetail, and call it good. Most of us would recognize that person for the ignorant dunce that he is and tell him to center that rear sight back up and go learn to shoot. So much so to the point now where if anyone with a Glock has accuracy or precision issues, regardless of distance, the automatic answer is “center the rear sight and learn to shoot”.

I’m pretty sure that we’ve established at this point that Ash is a decent pistol shooter. As such, I think it would be perfectly acceptable, at this point, if he simply picked a carry load and zero’d his sights to that load and then simply drove on. Now he’d then need to pick a practice load, document where that load impacts with where his sights are zero’d, and keep that in mind whilst driving on. Or he could simply buy a fully adjustable sight set and tweak his zero between practice and carry loads depending on what he was shooting at the moment.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Edster]

Why is it perfectly OK to change the height of the front sight to accommodate a needed change in elevation but it's somehow a not OK to change the orientation of the rear sight to address a needed change in windage?

If a windage miss is consistent, mechanical in nature, and not the result of something on the gun needing to be fixed, adjusting the sites seems reasonable.

If a windage miss is caused by a tendency to twist the gun inward, drifting the sites may cause worse misses the other way when the shooter switches hands.

[GJM]

I have a proven two step process to shooting a Glock better laterally. First, try more finger than you are using. This is about a 80 percent solution. If that doesn’t work, try less finger. Not kidding.

My wife recently transitioned from Gen 3 to 4/5 pistols after several decades of Glock shooting. She started have lateral POI problems. She tried more finger and that fixed it. I think, as a general rule, you need more finger with a bare G4/5 than a 3.

[ASH556]

I have a proven two step process to shooting a Glock better laterally. First, try more finger than you are using. This is about a 80 percent solution. If that doesn’t work, try less finger. Not kidding.

My wife recently transitioned from Gen 3 to 4/5 pistols after several decades of Glock shooting. She started have lateral POI problems. She tried more finger and that fixed it. I think, as a general rule, you need more finger with a bare G4/5 than a 3.

Thanks GJM! I suspected something like this and part of my messing with grips in dry fire involved adding the "M" backstrap to one of my pistols. Unfortunately, my lane died today and there were no other lanes available, so I didn't get to test the pistol I added the backstrap to.

To your point, though, do you think adding a backstrap has a similar effect as putting more finger on the trigger? Preference between the two?

[GJM]

Thanks GJM! I suspected something like this and part of my messing with grips in dry fire involved adding the "M" backstrap to one of my pistols. Unfortunately, my lane died today and there were no other lanes available, so I didn't get to test the pistol I added the backstrap to.

To your point, though, do you think adding a backstrap has a similar effect as putting more finger on the trigger? Preference between the two?

I like a smaller grip on a fairly large grip like the Glock. However, my wife and I think our draw is faster with a Gen 3 as you need to stick less finger in.

Perhaps try a medium on a Gen 4/5 and see if it grabs you as better.

[Clobbersaurus]

Hmmm. Almost always, if I am having trouble getting my pistol to group, I find re-focusing on sight alignment, vs sight picture, helps. Also just running the trigger straight back.

I also tell myself to stop being a Jackass. That mostly works too. :cool:

[SC_Dave]

Thanks GJM! I suspected something like this and part of my messing with grips in dry fire involved adding the "M" backstrap to one of my pistols. Unfortunately, my lane died today and there were no other lanes available, so I didn't get to test the pistol I added the backstrap to.

To your point, though, do you think adding a backstrap has a similar effect as putting more finger on the trigger? Preference between the two?


I like a smaller grip on a fairly large grip like the Glock. However, my wife and I think our draw is faster with a Gen 3 as you need to stick less finger in.

Perhaps try a medium on a Gen 4/5 and see if it grabs you as better.

This strikes a chord with me. I have a tendency to miss left, not low left, just left, especially at speed. I recently swapped the L backstrap on my G17-5 for the M even though I have very big hands (2X glove size). This allowed me to put more finger on the trigger comfortably. With a sample size of just one 200 round range session in which I had way less left biased hits really has me thinking. I would like to put in more time before I make a determination but the result I've seen so far lends itself to this line of thought.
SCD

[EJO]

Ash,

Try getting back to basics, load 10 live rounds and 7 dummy rounds (better yet have someone load them for you). Then fire your ten rounds and see what that front sight is doing. This drill always keeps me honest and does wonders for my guys every spring during quals. Just a thought...

[randyflycaster]

I am a bit confused about the main point of this thread. I was shooting to the right. (I am a left-handed shooter.) My instructor at the time told me to adjust the rear sight. That was the last lesson I took with him. I am not saying that his idea was wrong. I am saying that I wanted to keep experimenting and trying to find out what my shooting defect was.

Certainly, shooting is very expensive, which is why I took a break from it. (I can't afford shooting skeet and a 9mm.) So, if someone decides to move the rear sight I can see why.

I am just wondering what the top shooters do. Do they move their rear sights?

Randy

[ASH556]

I am a bit confused about the main point of this thread. I was shooting to the right. (I am a left-handed shooter.) My instructor at the time told me to adjust the rear sight. That was the last lesson I took with him. I am not saying that his idea was wrong. I am saying that I wanted to keep experimenting and trying to find out what my shooting defect was.

Certainly, shooting is very expensive, which is why I took a break from it. (I can't afford shooting skeet and a 9mm.) So, if someone decides to move the rear sight I can see why.

I am just wondering what the top shooters do. Do they move their rear sights?

Randy

The point of the thread is to determine what mechanics a person ought to look at changing to center their groups if their sights are centered, but hits are consistently off-center. More specifically, we're not talking about a beginner who creates a low left shotgun pattern at 7 yds. Not saying I'm great or anything, but there's also a reasonable degree of consistency to the targets I posted in the OP. Back in 2014 after taking Vickers' Advanced Pistol Marksmanship and having him tell me in person, in addition to other folks here that I trust tell me to move my sights, I did. Sometimes, though, when you take a shortcut, it limits your overall progress. I'm now in the stage of going back to that place and experimenting with other things (grip, finger placement, etc) to see if I can get it right this time without the shortcut.

As far as what the top shooters do, I don't know about guys like Vogel, but I know GJM has referenced centering the rear sight on his Glocks. I also know that Kevin B. who has posted some amazing bullseye targets with a Glock advocates for a centered rear as well.

That may be where some of the confusion is coming in:

Some of the comments/responses are in reference to new/less skilled shooters having inconsistencies and printing lateral deviation. The other side is experienced shooters ( psalms144.1 , LSP552 ) who are great, consistent shooters, but still see off-axis hits even though the groups (consistency) are tight.

[vcdgrips]

FWIW- I know of at least one large metro pd (1000+ officers) whose default set up for right hand shooters is the rear sight set at one credit card width to the right. Seems to work fairly well at keeping folks centered out to 25 if the other mechanics are generally in place.

Works for me as well across my Gen 1-3 Glock stable ( G1/G17, G2/G19, G3/G34x2, G3 G35x2).

YMMV greatly.

PS- Thx GJM re your insight on this platform. I really appreciate it and you (and Ms. C) have saved me a ton of time, talent and treasure by plowing the ground first.

[41magfan]

The goal of shooting should be hitting. Having the ability to tweak your sighting system (irons, red-dots, scopes) to achieve proper muzzle orientation is a means to an end; nothing more - nothing less. Having a rear sight centered in the slide is an irrelevant "end" that serves no purpose other than a cosmetic one.

I have a friend with an old 2-pin G17, that to achieve a proper "zero" (POA=POI) the rear sight is positioned so far to the right, the base of the sight is flush with the slide. For whatever reason (I really could care less "why") that's what it takes to zero that pistol with those sights and there is nothing wrong with the huge number of shooters that are able to hit with it just fine. The same thing can be said for my red-dots and scopes. I could care less where the dot and/or cross-hairs are in relation to their mechanical "center" internally, so long as I can achieve a proper zero and effectively use any compensation features.

I can only imagine the looks you'd get if you were to show up at Camp Perry and tell all those guys they were doing something wrong if every one of those Bomars weren't mechanically centered.

[GJM]

What is often unclear, is what is an issue with that particular gun, what is your eyes, what is the ambient light, and what is your technique. Regardless, I zero iron sights to my eyes and load. It feels better psychologically to me when a rear iron sight in near center, but as you point out, we have no idea what our red dot or scope is set at.

Here is something I have wondered about with iron sights. Let’s say your Glock shoots one inch left at seven yards. Does that mean it is also one inch left at 25 and 100 yards, or is it one inch at 7 and more and more as the distance increases. If it is one inch left, for example, at all distances, that is easy to adjust for. If it is a shank, and ever increasing, then that is not easy to fix with sight alignment.

[41magfan]

If the one inch of deviation at 7 yards is caused by a contradiction in alignment between the sights and the muzzle, then obviously the deviation will predictably increase with distance. If someone is so inclined, you can mathematically calculate this deviation at any given distance just like you can with elevation discrepancies and front sight height.

[HCM]

Thanks GJM! I suspected something like this and part of my messing with grips in dry fire involved adding the "M" backstrap to one of my pistols. Unfortunately, my lane died today and there were no other lanes available, so I didn't get to test the pistol I added the backstrap to.

To your point, though, do you think adding a backstrap has a similar effect as putting more finger on the trigger? Preference between the two?

Try all 3 options, (bare, M, L).

Personally I find less “leftitis” with the large frame (45/10mm) Glocks.

[peterb]

Here is something I have wondered about with iron sights. Let’s say your Glock shoots one inch left at seven yards. Does that mean it is also one inch left at 25 and 100 yards, or is it one inch at 7 and more and more as the distance increases. If it is one inch left, for example, at all distances, that is easy to adjust for. If it is a shank, and ever increasing, then that is not easy to fix with sight alignment.

I thought it was exactly the opposite. A consistent angular error — 1” at 7 yards, 2” at 14 yards, etc. — should be easy to correct by changing the sight geometry. A constant offset — 1” at all distances — is an inconsistent angular error, and can only be corrected at one distance by adjusting the sights.

[ASH556]

I'm getting about ready to throw in the towel and put adjustable sights on these guns (or just switch to a 1911 like I initially wanted to. The problem is I don't know what my path forward is to additionally diagnose or correct the issue. I've tweaked my grip such that I'm gaining much more consistency, but today's session shows that whether I cram my whole finger into the trigger guard, or use just the tip ;) I still get the same results.

5rds @ 7yds whole finger:

https://i.imgur.com/003xpGvl.jpg

5 additional rounds @ 7yds, just the tip:

https://i.imgur.com/nZPmKwAl.jpg

I took both my 251 and my 505 pistols with me today. I started with 505 wearing the "M" backstrap and 251 plain. Then I switched them. Regardless of backstrap or not, more finger or less finger, and with the rear sights absolutely centered in both slides, 251 still hits mostly good for elevation, but dead left and 505 hits closer to center, but still a bit left, and also high.

Now, correct me if you think I'm wrong here, I really want to know: If it was a flaw in my grip, trigger press, etc, wouldn't it change as I changed backstraps and finger placement? Doesn't the fact that the guns hit in their respective same places (251 left, 505 high and left) make it reasonable to make a hardware change (sights or even pistols altogether)?

More evidence:

10 @ 7yds, 505 with "M" backstrap:
https://i.imgur.com/1KgV6sZl.jpg

10 @ 7yds, 505 no backstrap, but more finger:
https://i.imgur.com/GyU5NXMl.jpg

10 @ 7yds, 251 with "M" backstrap:
https://i.imgur.com/XBrjG07l.jpg

10 @ 25yds, 251 with "M" backstrap (same trend, dead left):
https://i.imgur.com/SB7vcAll.jpg

10 @ 25yds, 505 no backstrap, more finger (same trend, less left than 251, but still left, and high):
https://i.imgur.com/bgGEBmMl.jpg

[cornstalker]

Don’t know if this will help or not...

When I got my first 19x I noticed that the rear sight was off to the right in the dovetail. I asked my gunsmith to center it, so he did but told me that it might cause a problem. He had checked it with a laser bore sighter and it appeared to be mechanically aligned as it came from the factory. I went ahead and shot it and it was indeed off to the right. Had to go back and have it pushed back to where it was originally.

Have you tried using a laser sighter to check the mechanical alignment?

[BN]

Here is something I have wondered about with iron sights. Let’s say your Glock shoots one inch left at seven yards. Does that mean it is also one inch left at 25 and 100 yards, or is it one inch at 7 and more and more as the distance increases.

Ash's groups are 1" left at 7 yards and several inches left at 25 yards. He needs to take a hammer and whack those sights. ;)

I have I think 7 Glock 17's. Gens 2, 3 and 4. They all shoot different. I got a lens implant in my master eye and it changed the way I looked at the sights and I have had to adjust most of them. Last evening I put a set of adjustable Dawson sights on my Gen4. When I shot it, it hit high and left. I didn't adjust my grip or trigger finger. I took a screwdriver and adjusted the sights. ;)

Elevation on my G-17's is different. Some take a taller front sight to get it to hit the tip of the front sight at 25 yards. If your sights are adjusted to hit dead center at 7 yards, then it will hit high at 25 yards.

We probably don't want to get into trajectory charts. ;)

[MGW]

Is there a difference in POI when shooting for speed at 7 or 10 yards as opposed to shoot8ng slow fire? Have you shot groups supported? I was looking back through your training journal and it looks like your groups with Glocks have always been a bit left. Even looking at your Dot Torture targets if you draw a line through the center of the target there is a definite left bias. And it’s very consistent.

I feel your pain by the way. It’s a weird quirk of Glocks and I’ve yet to find an explanation that really solves the problem. I think it’s just as reasonable to opine that it’s because of the location of the connector in the pistol. The momentum created when the connector releases the striker causes a slight shift of the sights left. It’s most evident during slow fire. So finger placement or grip force on the pistol is in an attempt to overcome the mechanical force of the trigger system. It explains how consistent the left grouping is on some Glocks.

Of course I’m probably completely full of shit too.

[HCM]

Ash's groups are 1" left at 7 yards and several inches left at 25 yards. He needs to take a hammer and whack those sights. ;)

I have I think 7 Glock 17's. Gens 2, 3 and 4. They all shoot different. I got a lens implant in my master eye and it changed the way I looked at the sights and I have had to adjust most of them. Last evening I put a set of adjustable Dawson sights on my Gen4. When I shot it, it hit high and left. I didn't adjust my grip or trigger finger. I took a screwdriver and adjusted the sights. ;)

Elevation on my G-17's is different. Some take a taller front sight to get it to hit the tip of the front sight at 25 yards. If your sights are adjusted to hit dead center at 7 yards, then it will hit high at 25 yards.

We probably don't want to get into trajectory charts. ;)

33616

[ASH556]

^^^LOL!

For real tho, this is me lying in bed at 11:30 and my wife asking me what I'm doing still on my phone and me embarrassed to tell her I'm reviewing target pics and trying to figure out why I can't hit the middle of the dot, lol

https://ak6.picdn.net/shutterstock/videos/9187826/thumb/1.jpg

[Kevin B.]

I reached out to my friend Kevin B. for some 1911 advice and his advice was esentially, "don't do it."

I think if you go back a reread what I wrote, you will see that I said you should really consider a decision to move to the 1911. I went on to say - and I am paraphrasing myself - that moving to the 1911 to fix issues with 25 yard accuracy was a pretty expensive solution. I further opined that based on the limited information available via the internet, I was of the opinion that the bulk of your issues were shooter-induced and if were I in your situation, I would address correct the shooter-induced issues rather than opting for a hardware solution.

Nothing that you have posted since our conversation changes my opinion. In fact, your subsequent posts have only reinforced it.

[GJM]

Stop beating yourself up over this. Not every gun shoots to the same place, and not everyone’s eyes and sights interact the same way. For today, I would give that rear sight a nudge right and carry-on. Switching platforms will be a big distraction as you get everything sorted out. Every week or so you can shoot for zero confirmation and see if things are changing.

[ASH556]

I think if you go back a reread what I wrote, you will see that I said you should really consider a decision to move to the 1911. I went on to say - and I am paraphrasing myself - that moving to the 1911 to fix issues with 25 yard accuracy was a pretty expensive solution. I further opined that based on the limited information available via the internet, I was of the opinion that the bulk of your issues were shooter-induced and if were I in your situation, I would address correct the shooter-induced issues rather than opting for a hardware solution.

Nothing that you have posted since our conversation changes my opinion. In fact, your subsequent posts have only reinforced it.

Thanks for the additional feedback. I didn’t intend to mis-represent what you wrote; only to simply paraphrase that switching to a 1911 brought about other issues and that I would do better to stay with what I have and work to correct the shooter-induced errors.

I find it interesting that what I’ve posted reinforces your opinion (which I respect greatly) about it being a shooter thing.

I’ll keep working on things I guess and see if I can’t weed it out.

[ASH556]

Stop beating yourself up over this. Not every gun shoots to the same place, and not everyone’s eyes and sights interact the same way. For today, I would give that rear sight a nudge right and carry-on. Switching platforms will be a big distraction as you get everything sorted out. Every week or so you can shoot for zero confirmation and see if things are changing.

I think what I’m going to do is leave 251 alone with the sights centered and continue to see if I can’t refine something technique-wise. On 505 (which shoots high) I received yesterday a set of adjustable Dawsons I ordered last weekend prior to my conversation with Kevin. I’ll put the Dawsons on 505 so I can at least eliminate the elevation problem with that gun.

[Kevin B.]

I think what I’m going to do is leave 251 alone with the sights centered and continue to see if I can’t refine something technique-wise. On 505 (which shoots high) I received yesterday a set of adjustable Dawsons I ordered last weekend prior to my conversation with Kevin. I’ll put the Dawsons on 505 so I can at least eliminate the elevation problem with that gun.

I think that is a prudent plan.


I’ll keep working on things I guess and see if I can’t weed it out.

You might consider taking some of the money you were planning to spend on acquiring a 1911 and the associated equipment, and applying it to a private lesson with an instructor. A good instructor can probably get your issues sorted out in a day; likely <2 hours.

You may get there on your own; you may not.

[ASH556]

You might consider taking some of the money you were planning to spend on acquiring a 1911 and the associated equipment, and applying it to a private lesson with an instructor. A good instructor can probably get your issues sorted out in a day; likely <2 hours.

You may get there on your own; you may not.

I'm in favor of this and 100% open to suggestions or recommendations. Feel free to PM if you prefer.

FWIW to the forum at large, I know and have shot with some local GM's (Rob Romero, Erik Lund, John Nagel). I'm not opposed to reaching out to any of them and have all of their numbers.

However, if there's someone else that's more "Glock Specific" that you recommend, I'm all ears.

[GJM]

I overheard two guys shooting in our squad today. One, a local SWAT guy, had some make up shots on small steel. His friend commented that “Taran (Butler) holds high right” on steel shots like that. Not making this up.

[psalms144.1]

On my "live day" at FITP at FLETC, I had a young female trainee who couldn't hit center of the target for love or money with her issued GLOCK. I spent a LOT of time with her, trying to correct stance, grip, sight picture, sight alignment, trigger press, you name it... About 30 minutes into the session, a crusty old instructor came over to her and nudged me aside. He said "aim high right and yank the trigger." Sure as $hi+, nice center of mass hit.

I'm not sure what's more fucked up - the advice he gave, the fact it worked, or that there's now a "trained" federal LEO out there who, in a gunfight, itsgoing to aim over her target's left shoulder...

[41magfan]

He said "aim high right and yank the trigger." Sure as $hi+, nice center of mass hit.

He was just putting a different spin on Kentucky windage.

:^)

[GJM]

I overheard two guys shooting in our squad today. One, a local SWAT guy, had some make up shots on small steel. His friend commented that “Taran (Butler) holds high right” on steel shots like that. Not making this up.

Of course the funny part of this is Taran Butler is one of the best Glock shooters in the world.

[DDTSGM]

On my "live day" at FITP at FLETC, I had a young female trainee who couldn't hit center of the target for love or money with her issued GLOCK. I spent a LOT of time with her, trying to correct stance, grip, sight picture, sight alignment, trigger press, you name it... About 30 minutes into the session, a crusty old instructor came over to her and nudged me aside. He said "aim high right and yank the trigger." Sure as $hi+, nice center of mass hit.

I'm not sure what's more fucked up - the advice he gave, the fact it worked, or that there's now a "trained" federal LEO out there who, in a gunfight, itsgoing to aim over her target's left shoulder...

Too bad that he is allowed to instruct, sounds like he has lost focus on why officers carry firearms.

That being said, we had an agency way back when 5906's were the gun, first thing we'd do is center the sights on their student officers pistols, they were usually adjusted to the right and high.

Oh, well....

[fatdog]

consider taking some of the money you were planning to spend on acquiring a 1911 and the associated equipment, and applying it to a private lesson with an instructor.

Word.

About 4 years ago I found myself struggling with all my conventional semi-autos because I had immersed myself in cowboy action shooting for about 3 years (had to quit USPSA/IDPA at the end of 2011 due to physical problems) and I had neglected all my conventional modern carry guns. If you exclusively shoot a SAA or cap and ball revolver for 3 years straight your modern semi-auto skills will deteriorate.

I lashed up with Headhunter (aka Claude Werner) for some private lessons (Cherokee Gun Club, Gainesville, GA) and he quickly cured me and gave me a huge insight into what the root of my many issues were, and further advanced my skill and abilities as an instructor in the process. If you are in Braselton, GA you are only an hour away from where the one of the finest individual coaches in the US teaches...just sayin...

And while I admire some of the other instructors mentioned, they can't hold the jock of the former chief instructor at Rodgers...fact.

[HCM]

On my "live day" at FITP at FLETC, I had a young female trainee who couldn't hit center of the target for love or money with her issued GLOCK. I spent a LOT of time with her, trying to correct stance, grip, sight picture, sight alignment, trigger press, you name it... About 30 minutes into the session, a crusty old instructor came over to her and nudged me aside. He said "aim high right and yank the trigger." Sure as $hi+, nice center of mass hit.

I'm not sure what's more fucked up - the advice he gave, the fact it worked, or that there's now a "trained" federal LEO out there who, in a gunfight, itsgoing to aim over her target's left shoulder...

I’ve seen instructors at FLETC do the same thing with struggling CBP students with P2000 LEMs.

[11B10]

I'm also in the "want to do it perfectly and can't" camp. My rear sights are drifted a couple of "pen mark widths" to the right to keep me centered at 25 yards.

I also find that as I age, my grip strength lessens, and I'm more impacted by cold weather, my groups drift more left. I have to consciously grip the dog snot out of my GLOCKs to stay centered, which is frustrating, but, a fact of life.




This^^^!!! The aging process is something you must address, sooner or later, people. I know I had to learn the hard way myself. This "drifting" led me away from the P30SK I had convinced myself I needed - back to the G30S I had success with in the past. IOW, it was all about the grip. Viola!

[CCT125US]

ASH556 I recall a thread that mentioned an issue with Glock front sights. The issue was a bit of slop in the front post hole that allowed it to ever so slightly twist when tightened down. This torque would cause the L/R edges to be out of parallel to the slide. The right side of the FS would visually appear thicker, causing the shooter to center the FS incorrectly, driving the muzzle left..

[ASH556]

ASH556 I recall a thread that mentioned an issue with Glock front sights. The issue was a bit of slop in the front post hole that allowed it to ever so slightly twist when tightened down. This torque would cause the L/R edges to be out of parallel to the slide. The right side of the FS would visually appear thicker, causing the shooter to center the FS incorrectly, driving the muzzle left..

That's a good thought, thanks! I do the vise trick (slide upside down with vise jaws holding front sight blade inline, align slide to be parallel to vise jaws) when I install front sights on Glocks. I did it when I put these on, but maybe something's loosened up over 10K or so rounds, so I'll double-check it.

[BN]

Doesn't Heinie offset the notches on his rear Glock sights a little to the right? I heard that somewhere or saw it on the internet. :)

[ASH556]

One thing I recently added to my range gear was a stencil with various size circles on it. I decided today to shift my attempt to chase a perfect trigger press and instead of shooting groups at a 1.5" dot at 7yds, I made 5 9mm-sized holes 2" apart and fired one round at each hole. Results:

https://i.imgur.com/4WS6dFdl.jpg

I then decided to try a whole bunch of various techniques on the aforementioned 1.5" dots at 7yds and see if anything changed significantly. I managed to get a few center hits in there when compressing my elbows, using chest and back to compress the pistol from the sides, and slightly rolling my shoulders forward. I'll have to mess with this some more.

The Dawson sights on SN 505 are a bust. The damn thing is now shooting 5.25" high and that's with a .300" high front and the rear slap bottomed out. I know I could use their "Perfect Impact" guarantee, but that means an even taller front. The f-ing gun just shoots high, and for that, I think I've talked myself into dumping it and trying out my first Gen 5 Glock.

https://i.imgur.com/QTe25ynl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/KdagIAbl.jpg

I shot this group with SN 251 with the TCAP/Defoor sights. I shot it in 2 strings of 5.

First string:
https://i.imgur.com/NCSNhmil.jpg

Full 10:
https://i.imgur.com/Y2KUaDzl.jpg

I got something really right with two of those shots on the last string. :cool:

Finished up with a few runs of "The Test" from the ready. Just further evidence that you can consistently do the wrong thing (push the trigger low and left at speed)

https://i.imgur.com/M2AZBs5l.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/wRwNBGVl.jpg

I also downloaded Claude Werners Indoor Range Sessions guide and will be shooting through that. If I can't get something sorted by the end of next week I'll be reaching out for a one-on-one.

[JV_]

Doesn't Heinie offset the notches on his rear Glock sights a little to the right?

I have some that are .010" offset.

[GJM]

A great instructor can help with a lot, but not sure with this since many of them have their rear sight drifted slightly right.

[ASH556]

Well, this just happened (G45). Got to pick through a stack of them!

33715

[Duelist]

Well, this just happened (G45). Got to pick through a stack of them!

33715

Cool! Did you trade the high-hitting 17?

[ASH556]

Cool! Did you trade the high-hitting 17?

Nah, it’s a shop I used to work part time in. We talked about it. $325 was their number. I can probably get $400+ on a local Ftf deal.

[revchuck38]

Well, this just happened (G45). Got to pick through a stack of them!

33715

New gun day is always a good day. :)

[BN]

Well, this just happened (G45). Got to pick through a stack of them!

33715

Take a picture of your rear sight and post it here before you shoot it. ;)

[ASH556]

Take a picture of your rear sight and post it here before you shoot it. ;)

33719

[BN]

;) I think it favors the right a little. You'll probably be OK. LOL

[LSP552]

Doesn't Heinie offset the notches on his rear Glock sights a little to the right? I heard that somewhere or saw it on the internet. :)

But what would he know..;)

I had several Glocks with Heinie nights sights when I still had 20/20 vision. I remember measuring them and the notch was slightly right. Wish I still had a Heinie rear so I could measure again.....for science.

[JustOneGun]

My theory is that most people don't really learn the grip in isolation. They learn the ever faster draw that ends with an inconsistent grip. We then go about trying to fix that inconsistent grip. We go from spray and pray inconsistent from draw to draw, to drifting groups inconsistent from week to week and then month to month. By being psychotically focused on a consistent grip one can check the end of every dry fire/live fire draw to see where the key points are and if we missed them.

I've seen consistently shoot left with right handed people whose upper trigger finger is pressing the frame consistently at the end of the trigger press. I've also seen the shooting left theory become the shooting right theory when the shooter is left handed. I've also seen someone with the same upper finger placement but having too much trigger finger makes them hook the trigger and pull the gun thus shooting right (they had big hands and long fingers). I've also seen people who have learned to increase the pressure of their support hand thumb to try and stop the shoot laterally problem so the gun is literally squirming in their hand when a discretely placed dummy round is placed in the magazine. I've seen so many instructors drift sights only to have to change them back later when the group moves somewhere else.

Have a competent instructor diagnose for any problems with the grip. It would really suck if the upper trigger finger is consistently pressing the frame to the left or too little finger on the trigger is pressing it left but to fix it we just moved the sights. Have a good left and then right handed shooter shoot your gun. Most of the time I would hit the dot left and right handed and the student wouldn't. Should I drift those sights?

Then get very particular about one's grip. Learn to find one's key placement points of the grip and check them after every draw. Often that focus will find small changes occurring in step one of the draw causing a slightly rotated grip. Sometimes we get a slightly different grip with the support hand(different knuckle placement on the trigger guard, different wrist angle, different thumb placement, different inward pressure). So learning where the web of the had falls on the backstrap, where the knuckle falls on the trigger guard and where the thumb ends up and then working to make them fall in that "exact" same spot each time is the frustrating goal. Once that is done then one can go onto the pressure play between the hands. That is tough in it's own way. It must be the same each and every time. It also must be felt by the shooter. This is where words from an instructor don't usually help. Learning to feel it work is something we do have to chase a bit.

[ASH556]

My theory is that most people don't really learn the grip in isolation. They learn the ever faster draw that ends with an inconsistent grip. We then go about trying to fix that inconsistent grip. We go from spray and pray inconsistent from draw to draw, to drifting groups inconsistent from week to week and then month to month. By being psychotically focused on a consistent grip one can check the end of every dry fire/live fire draw to see where the key points are and if we missed them.

I've seen consistently shoot left with right handed people whose upper trigger finger is pressing the frame consistently at the end of the trigger press. I've also seen the shooting left theory become the shooting right theory when the shooter is left handed. I've also seen someone with the same upper finger placement but having too much trigger finger makes them hook the trigger and pull the gun thus shooting right (they had big hands and long fingers). I've also seen people who have learned to increase the pressure of their support hand thumb to try and stop the shoot laterally problem so the gun is literally squirming in their hand when a discretely placed dummy round is placed in the magazine. I've seen so many instructors drift sights only to have to change them back later when the group moves somewhere else.

Have a competent instructor diagnose for any problems with the grip. It would really suck if the upper trigger finger is consistently pressing the frame to the left or too little finger on the trigger is pressing it left but to fix it we just moved the sights. Have a good left and then right handed shooter shoot your gun. Most of the time I would hit the dot left and right handed and the student wouldn't. Should I drift those sights?

Then get very particular about one's grip. Learn to find one's key placement points of the grip and check them after every draw. Often that focus will find small changes occurring in step one of the draw causing a slightly rotated grip. Sometimes we get a slightly different grip with the support hand(different knuckle placement on the trigger guard, different wrist angle, different thumb placement, different inward pressure). So learning where the web of the had falls on the backstrap, where the knuckle falls on the trigger guard and where the thumb ends up and then working to make them fall in that "exact" same spot each time is the frustrating goal. Once that is done then one can go onto the pressure play between the hands. That is tough in it's own way. It must be the same each and every time. It also must be felt by the shooter. This is where words from an instructor don't usually help. Learning to feel it work is something we do have to chase a bit.

Man, that is amazing insight! It’s like you’ve read my fleeting thoughts over the last couple weeks, but then compiled them and edited out the garbage. I’m being sincere, not sarcastic. Can’t get it to read quite right.

[Gio]

ASH556 I recall a thread that mentioned an issue with Glock front sights. The issue was a bit of slop in the front post hole that allowed it to ever so slightly twist when tightened down. This torque would cause the L/R edges to be out of parallel to the slide. The right side of the FS would visually appear thicker, causing the shooter to center the FS incorrectly, driving the muzzle left..

This is likely your issue if your sight is centered. With your group sizes being as tight as they are, I would say with 99% confidence your sights need to be adjusted. If your sights aren’t centered, then the above is likely the cause. That said, different ammo has different windage points of impact, and zeroing for your specific ammo may require a slight shift off center for the rear sight.

At one point, we were issuing service/duty ammo that hit 3” right of our issues practice/fmj ammo at 25 yds. For those of us required to shoot bullseye targets, it would make a significant difference in score if you were zeroed for service ammo but used the fmj for the bullseye test.

[GJM]

So this is my question — why is it that so many (right hand) shooters have a problem with a Glock hitting left for them, but do not have this same problem with say a 1911, Beretta 92 or VP9?

BTW, I don’t buy the inconsistent grip theory as a primary reason, since most zeroing and 25 yards shooting is done with a careful, slow grip and not initiated by a draw on the clock.

[Bucky]

Here is something I have wondered about with iron sights. Let’s say your Glock shoots one inch left at seven yards. Does that mean it is also one inch left at 25 and 100 yards, or is it one inch at 7 and more and more as the distance increases. If it is one inch left, for example, at all distances, that is easy to adjust for. If it is a shank, and ever increasing, then that is not easy to fix with sight alignment.

If you could take the human factor out, a gun that is one inch off at 7 yards, would be more off at 25 yards. It’s right triangle geometry, where the gun to point of aim is the leg, and the gun to point of impact is the hypotenuse. The second leg would be point of aim to point of impact.

[Bucky]

In my opinion, there’s nothing wrong with adjusting the sights to tailor the gun to you, as long as you’re consistent. We do it all the time with elevation, as we’ve all seen there are three different kinds of sight picture / sight holds with regards to elevation.

[spinmove_]

So this is my question — why is it that so many (right hand) shooters have a problem with a Glock hitting left for them, but do not have this same problem with say a 1911, Beretta 92 or VP9?

BTW, I don’t buy the inconsistent grip theory as a primary reason, since most zeroing and 25 yards shooting is done with a careful, slow grip and not initiated by a draw on the clock.

From my personal experience and actually having some time behind a 92 the second half of this year, I attribute it to a few different factors.

1.) The tight trigger well on Glocks
2.) The hump on the back of the grip on Glocks
3.) The odd shaping of the bottom of the trigger guard on Glocks
4.) The lightweight material of the Glock frame
5.) The Glock trigger characteristics

Factors 1-3 are ergonomic issues. You can mold yourself to work around them with enough practice or your may simply be lucky enough to have it feel somewhat natural to you. Factor 4 simply means your consistency in grip pressure needs to be on point. Factor 5, from what it sounds like, has been at least partially corrected by Gen 5 Glocks.

All of this is not to say that Glocks suck. It’s basically my thoughts on why Glocks are just unforgiving. It also seems to be why so many other platforms are more forgiving. It also seems to me that Glocks benefit most from some plastic surgery.

Oh, and one more thing. That trigger face, even with a smooth trigger face. Yeah, between that safety tab and the trigger guard part that causes “Glock Knuckle”, it gets painful after a while and, as a result, gets distracting. This tends to cause me to shift my grip to make it more comfortable which throws everything off and then shooting goes to hell because I’m no longer “on point” with my fundamentals.

I can dryfire my Beretta 92G for an hour or two and walk away happy that I put in the work and made some progress. Hands might be a bit sore for gripping hard enough for that long, but it’s not horrible. If I do the same thing with a Glock my right hand $&@!ing hates me and I end up being annoyed and in pain. It’s not excruciating, but it’s enough to be annoying. After a while it becomes less and less annoying and I can work through it if I don’t let it get to me. If I have an off day, that’s when things go to hell. But the same problem never really manifests with other platforms, so why keep on with an unforgiving and suboptimal platform when I don’t need to?


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[JustOneGun]

So this is my question — why is it that so many (right hand) shooters have a problem with a Glock hitting left for them, but do not have this same problem with say a 1911, Beretta 92 or VP9?

BTW, I don’t buy the inconsistent grip theory as a primary reason, since most zeroing and 25 yards shooting is done with a careful, slow grip and not initiated by a draw on the clock.



Most people who are left handed on the glock shoot slightly right when new. They go through the same progression as any right handed shooter only in reverse. That doesn't mean the pistol can't shoot to the left. But just to assume it is, even with a good shooter might make them go on a merry go round of frustration if it isn't the gun. That's the reason to shoot it left and right handed. Or have a left and right handed person shoot it. It always amazed me how some of my fellow instructors would shoot just left on a gun when testing it for a student. Then want to move the sights. I shoot it and it was fine right handed. I shoot it left handed and it was fine.

My point is that even good shooters have bad habits that need to be fixed, including instructors. Often that shooting left isn't the gun on a right handed person. It's them. We can often see that problem when we speed them up and get them moving. They will often end up with a group to the right when running and gunning and forget they moved the sight. It leads to a lot of frustration.

Put another way: when I would watch a new shooter (and I had the same problem as I learned on an HK DA/SA) get better over time when shooting a HK USP they would be something like low left. Then over time the low would go away as they got better and it would end up left for a short time. I would see good shooters shoot the first shot left or low left depending on their skill. Then of course they by that time would shoot the single action fairly well in a group but somewhere else. Most police agencies tended to accept that first shot being off. But because it's two different groups rarely did they want to just move the sight. With the glock there's just one group so they want to move the sight. If they do it's not the end of the world. But they do have to remember it was done because there's a chance they will continue to refine their skill and find their group is moving back to the right.

[randyflycaster]

Just for the record: I shoot my Glock 19 and my CZ 85 with the exact same results.

Randy

[todd]

One thing people often forget about it that we all have different size hands and different "issues" with fingers or wrists. There is a reason that the rear sight on a pistol is designed to be moved. If it is put in a rest and shot perfectly, then it should be centered. Now, you enter it into the hands of the "human machine" with a lot going on, you have to find a compensation. Almost every pistol that I shoot, I have to drift the rear sight to the right. Does that mean, I have an issue, no that is called customizing the pistol. One thing to ensure, is that the sight does not move, so needs locked down. I recall back in the day when I was young and shooting some competition without a lot of money, I took a very fine brush and bright fingernail polish, and on each side of the sight, I had a small line. Then at a glance, if I was having issues, I could double check. But then found Loctite, lol.

[spinmove_]

One thing people often forget about it that we all have different size hands and different "issues" with fingers or wrists. There is a reason that the rear sight on a pistol is designed to be moved. If it is put in a rest and shot perfectly, then it should be centered. Now, you enter it into the hands of the "human machine" with a lot going on, you have to find a compensation. Almost every pistol that I shoot, I have to drift the rear sight to the right. Does that mean, I have an issue, no that is called customizing the pistol. One thing to ensure, is that the sight does not move, so needs locked down. I recall back in the day when I was young and shooting some competition without a lot of money, I took a very fine brush and bright fingernail polish, and on each side of the sight, I had a small line. Then at a glance, if I was having issues, I could double check. But then found Loctite, lol.

Moving the rear sight to the right a smidge because your visual perception of the sights says “perfect sight picture” when it isn’t is something I think is acceptable for moving the rear sight.

Moving it a smidge for one pistol because of specific ammo zero is something I think is acceptable because tolerance stacking is a thing.

Moving it a smidge for a brand or model of pistol is something I think might be acceptable, but it might be time to consider if that platform is really right for the shooter or not.

Moving it a smidge for every single pistol you own regardless of make, model, ammo, and style of sights I think is indicative of the end user imparting incorrect fundamentals.

I’ve wrestled with this issue personally for years. 10 times out of 10 the issue was totally my fault.


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[psalms144.1]

SNIP...Moving it a smidge for a brand or model of pistol is something I think might be acceptable, but it might be time to consider if that platform is really right for the shooter or not.I'm in this last boat - and limited to the "smidge" for GLOCKs only. Does that mean I should abandon a platform that I'm heavily invested in (duplicate pistols, mags, holsters, NSs, etc), have hundreds of thousands of training rounds through, and have years of experience running well AS LONG AS THE SIGHTS ARE DRIFTED? I don't believe so, especially since attempts to switch to other platforms have consistently led to shooting "straighter" (e.g. COM hits with no sight adjustment), but have proven to not be as effective in shooting at speed, overall accuracy, etc, not to mention moving to platforms that cost more, weigh more, have lower capacity, are harder to maintain, and/or all of the above...

I'm not disagreeing with anything you wrote, spinmove - and you're an exceptionally talented shooter. I just don't want a herd of folks to drop their current pistol because "it shoots right/left for me..."

[BN]

33859

I'll just post this photo again

So for just which of these 3 loads should I adjust my sights???

Groups aren't as tight as I would like, but it is plain to see that each load hits at a different windage setting. These groups were fired back to back at 25 yards freestyle with the same pistol. I don't remember now if it was a G-17 or a CZ75.

The 147 grain AE9FP hit center,the 115 Wolf hit right and the 135 grain hand loads hit left. And they are all a little lower than I would like. :(

Pick a load, adjust your sights and rock on. ;)

[STI]

The 147 grain AE9FP hit center,the 115 Wolf hit right and the 135 grain hand loads hit left.

147 AE9FP with the old wide meplat shoots to a different windage than 147 standard pressure HST in a sample of one G17G5, I struggle with the same thing.

[GJM]

Most semi auto shooters don’t shoot well enough to know their different loads made have varying POI.

Let’s consider variables that could effect POA/POI. In no particular order.

1. Sight dimensions.

2. Sight design (Heinie offset right).

3. Sight installation. (Glock shipping many G5 pistols with the rear sight a smidge right).

4. How that particular pistol is built.

5. The position of the sun. Light condition generally.

6. Shooter’s eyes.

7) Shooter’s technique.

8) Different load and even different lot of ammo.

9) Distance shot at.

10) Shooting position — freestyle versus rested.

11) Trigger components and characteristics.

12) Backstrap, GFA etc, installed

13) Speed of shots fired.

[spinmove_]

I'm in this last boat - and limited to the "smidge" for GLOCKs only. Does that mean I should abandon a platform that I'm heavily invested in (duplicate pistols, mags, holsters, NSs, etc), have hundreds of thousands of training rounds through, and have years of experience running well AS LONG AS THE SIGHTS ARE DRIFTED? I don't believe so, especially since attempts to switch to other platforms have consistently led to shooting "straighter" (e.g. COM hits with no sight adjustment), but have proven to not be as effective in shooting at speed, overall accuracy, etc, not to mention moving to platforms that cost more, weigh more, have lower capacity, are harder to maintain, and/or all of the above...

I'm not disagreeing with anything you wrote, spinmove - and you're an exceptionally talented shooter. I just don't want a herd of folks to drop their current pistol because "it shoots right/left for me..."

And that’s why I said “consider” instead of “definitely should”. If the platform works for you in literally every other way, then drive on, especially if you have that much invested. Honestly it was more for the persons whom might have one or two pistols and maybe a few mags and that’s it.

Personally I think most people can make most platforms work for them in some sense or another. But sometimes it comes down to “does this really actually fit the shooter OPTIMALLY”. Unless you’re mandated to shoot something specific, there’s a literal smorgasbord of options out there and a good chunk of them are really solid options. I just want to make sure people aren’t pigeonholing themselves into something they have to constantly fight. There is no perfect pistol out there, but there are options out there that require fewer changes to make optimal than others.

And thank you for the kind words, but at the end of the day I’m just some doofus on the internet with an opinion. ;P


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[Ivantheterrible]

From my personal experience and actually having some time behind a 92 the second half of this year, I attribute it to a few different factors.

1.) The tight trigger well on Glocks
2.) The hump on the back of the grip on Glocks
3.) The odd shaping of the bottom of the trigger guard on Glocks
4.) The lightweight material of the Glock frame
5.) The Glock trigger characteristics

Factors 1-3 are ergonomic issues. You can mold yourself to work around them with enough practice or your may simply be lucky enough to have it feel somewhat natural to you. Factor 4 simply means your consistency in grip pressure needs to be on point. Factor 5, from what it sounds like, has been at least partially corrected by Gen 5 Glocks.

All of this is not to say that Glocks suck. It’s basically my thoughts on why Glocks are just unforgiving. It also seems to be why so many other platforms are more forgiving. It also seems to me that Glocks benefit most from some plastic surgery.



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In my limited experience, I have to agree here 100%. When I have issues with shots going left (G17), I have been able to take a moment and do some dry-firing while carefully watching the sight alignment. Lo and behold, I can detect the slight left movement of the front sight as the shot breaks if I don't apply proper support hand grip. It just seems that the Glock is very dependent on the support hand having much more control than what I have experienced in years of shooting revolvers, 1911s, and Berettas. Yes, I think "unforgiving" is the best description for the Glock.