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jc000
12-15-2018, 09:52 PM
Does anyone have any experience with this knife? I'm semi looking for a dedicated defensive blade, and came across this design. The price with sheath and trainer isn't as hateful as some of the options out there and its made by Spartan Blades who I'm a fan of. Anyone on here own one of these?

Ronin Sakura Blade (https://www.ronintactics.com/store/p136/Ronin_%22Sakura%22_Blade.html)

Totem Polar
12-15-2018, 10:08 PM
I believe that the general P-F consensus is that ringed designs are not the most optimal for defensive use due to increased risk of injury for the user. Thst’s certainly my own take, but I’m no SME.

Wondering Beard
12-16-2018, 11:46 AM
I'm no SME either, far from it, and it looks like a nice knife (and I am a fan of Spartan Blades too) but, personally, I wouldn't go with this one. It has no scales or wrap or anything that enables your hand to hold your grip tightly except your hand strength and putting your little finger (or index when in reverse grip) in the ring. "Degloving", i.e. getting the skin of the finger in the ring ripped off by your opponent, when in a struggle for the knife has been known to happen, so if you use a ring knife you're better off keeping your finger outside. That brings us back to o using only your grip strength to hold the knife (a stab with a slick handle and your hand may ride up the knife onto the blade).

For the price you seem willing to pay, I would go straight to look at Joe Watson's or Ban Tang's offerings; links are available in the few threads that mention them in this section of PF.

I would also recommend you take a look at CRKT's Obake (and Obake Skoshi if small size matters) by Lucas Burnley: https://www.crkt.com/shop/everyday-carry-knives/obake.html . It's very inexpensive (you can find sometimes an even better price on Amazon), and it's very well made and comes with a good sheath system. Don't let the absence of guard deter you; I've stabbed mine hard upward into a wood table and the wrap really keeps your hand in place. It will work easily with forward and reverse grips, edge in or edge out. Moreover, it is a very capable utility knife, something that matters a lot to me, while keeping excellent defensive capabilities. Finally, this knife will give you a good starting point to figure out (inexpensively) what will or won't work out for you.

Of course, this all is just my point of view and worth exactly what you paid for it :-)

RevolverRob
12-16-2018, 06:26 PM
I'll just shoot the straight shit - What Tu Lam knows about knives and practical knife combat could fit into a thimble with room left over. I respect the man's service but fifteen minutes of watching him talk about knives and training techniques tells me that everything he knows about blade application is theoretical not based on practice and application. He has been busily turning his service record into a lucrative training business for wannabe Green Berets and that's all well and good, but what he teaches has exceptionally limited application and minimal reality based aspects to it.

In other words, I'd take a hard pass and focus on blades that have been designed by folks who have a bit more practical application in their approaches. The Clinch Pick is the gold standard for a reason. A China Pick and Trainer can be had for $175. The Ronin designed by Janich and made by Spyderco is a quality design. The Spyderco Street Beat designed by Perrin is a fairly good design (though the choil is a little too big and far forward, in my opinion). The Gryphon Knives M10 made in Seki and designed by Terzuola is an excellent design.

I'm 100% against ring knives, when the knives are meant for stabbing. The only ring knives I'm okay with are more "slashers", that would be the Hide-Away Knives and the Perrin/Emerson La Griffe. Short blades that will be used primarily in a raking motion.

PS: For training knives, nothing better than a NOK - https://noktrainingknives.webs.com/apps/webstore/ - Use a rubber band (I use an elastic hair tie) to hold your NOK where your CP sits on your belt and go to town.

jc000
12-17-2018, 10:10 AM
I was hoping to get some feedback on people who had some more exposure to this actual blade, though everyone's comments are appreciated.

Without commenting on Tu Lam's qualifications as a knife instructor, I can say that he is not a factor in my interest in this knife. What does appeal to me is the size, blade type, price (for the package), and that it's made by Spartan. While I'm not 100% sold on a ring design (and definitely not used in the fashion that I've seen this knife whipped around) I have had some limited exposure to them and know some people with very real practical knife experience who are advocates for a ring on a knife. I haven't ruled it out for my needs.

That being said, again I do appreciate everyone's thoughts. If the Ban Tan CP were a little less expensive / more available I'm sure that would be a top option.

Isaac
12-17-2018, 10:21 AM
I can't carry a fixed blade in Michigan, but when I lived in FL I carried a CP.

If you want a BT CP just for the double edge, i'd recommend a regular CP and this:

https://www.amazon.com/Work-Sharp-WSKTS-Sharpening-Repeatable/dp/B003IT5F14/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?ie=UTF8&qid=1545059637&sr=8-1-spons&keywords=work+sharp&psc=1

Rick62
12-17-2018, 10:32 AM
Regarding the price aspect: a BT SE CP and nok trainer combo is priced $25 above the Ronin package.
I’m sure the ronin blade is well made, but ring blades are a big no, for me anyway. I’m no professional knife fighter, but any opportunity to avoid a degloving injury...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hambo
12-17-2018, 10:36 AM
If the Ban Tan CP were a little less expensive / more available I'm sure that would be a top option.

In stock. $340 vs. $335 for the Ronin. What am I missing?

https://www.illumn.com/ban-tang-knives/ban-tang-x-shivworks-clinch-pick-single-edge-g10-handle.html

jc000
12-17-2018, 10:54 AM
In stock. $340 vs. $335 for the Ronin. What am I missing?

https://www.illumn.com/ban-tang-knives/ban-tang-x-shivworks-clinch-pick-single-edge-g10-handle.html

That's great – thanks for sending. I was looking at the BT site with the OOS titanium option.

BigD
12-17-2018, 10:56 AM
I'll just shoot the straight shit - What Tu Lam knows about knives and practical knife combat could fit into a thimble with room left over. I respect the man's service but fifteen minutes of watching him talk about knives and training techniques tells me that everything he knows about blade application is theoretical not based on practice and application. He has been busily turning his service record into a lucrative training business for wannabe Green Berets and that's all well and good, but what he teaches has exceptionally limited application and minimal reality based aspects to it.


So, you have trained with him?

BigD
12-17-2018, 11:05 AM
Regarding the price aspect: a BT SE CP and nok trainer combo is priced $25 above the Ronin package.
I’m sure the ronin blade is well made, but ring blades are a big no, for me anyway. I’m no professional knife fighter, but any opportunity to avoid a degloving injury...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Someone correct me if I"m wrong. I don't think the concern is degloving so much as it is having your pinky or ring finger fractured. The trade-off is the knife is less likely to be dropped or taken away from you.

(And in some cases, like the SOPC, the ring is an aid in drawing the knife which is - as I understand it - designed to be worn on a plate carrier and could be more easily grabbed by your foe if it wasn't sheathed so deeply. This doesn't apply to the Ronin knife.)

Hambo
12-17-2018, 11:08 AM
That's great – thanks for sending. I was looking at the BT site with the OOS titanium option.

De nada. I've been trying to resist hitting the button on one with mental arguments such as: "a China pick will stab somebody up just as well" or "more than three hundos oxidizing in an evidence bin." I'm losing the battle...

jc000
12-17-2018, 11:28 AM
Someone correct me if I"m wrong. I don't think the concern is degloving so much as it is having your pinky or ring finger fractured. The trade-off is the knife is less likely to be dropped or taken away from you.

(And in some cases, like the SOPC, the ring is an aid in drawing the knife which is - as I understand it - designed to be worn on a plate carrier and could be more easily grabbed by your foe if it wasn't sheathed so deeply. This doesn't apply to the Ronin knife.)

I've played with a SOCP (including with a pistol) and like that as an option, though not enough experience to say definitively. Price is right on that with the trainer, though – even the Spartan version isn't too bad.

Cecil Burch
12-17-2018, 11:51 AM
Someone correct me if I"m wrong. I don't think the concern is degloving so much as it is having your pinky or ring finger fractured. The trade-off is the knife is less likely to be dropped or taken away from you.



Degloving is a huge concern, along with a finger fracture. Anytime you have something enclosing a finger, that handle can easily catch and drag.

RevolverRob
12-17-2018, 01:15 PM
So, you have trained with him?

No. I wouldn't spend my money on what he is teaching, because it's very clearly not applicable to my circumstances. Or any circumstances really, unless you believe an opponent will be static and you can slash and wave your knife around in a circle. :rolleyes:

This:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxPC8yhJDu4

Versus This:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7MG6zfj6Hw

Rick62
12-17-2018, 01:46 PM
Degloving is a huge concern, along with a finger fracture. Anytime you have something enclosing a finger, that handle can easily catch and drag.

Not that Cecil’s word don’t carry the necessary weight with my $.02, but this mirrors my thoughts and concerns.
Also, circling back to the comment about the ring being an aid in weapons retention; I feel like the increased risk of suffering a hand injury caused by the ring actually makes it a bit of a detriment in retention. Broken fingers without skin/tissue on them don’t hold onto things very effectively.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

RevolverRob
12-17-2018, 02:08 PM
I agree that dropping a knife is kind of a concern, but it is what it is. You'd rather drop the knife than suffer a catastrophic injury to one of your hands that is otherwise avoidable. Having a knife taken away from you is not really a concern. You're holding the part that isn't sharp when you're holding a knife, not much for someone to get leverage on it snatch it from you.

I prefer fixed blade knives with fairly chunky handles to fill the hand over thinner blades that use a ring to retain. Thinner knives tend to twist in the hand and increasing the chance of losing the knife also a thinner knife that twists more with a ring? That's an ideal combination for getting the ring digging into the finger and causing that degloving.

Two notes:

1) Check your local jurisdictions about double edged knives. In some (most?) places, a sharpened swedge is a double edged knife and is illegal. This could make the Ronin Sakura a non-starter for a lot of folks.

2) The ring has a ton of utility for a utility knife. Dangling from a finger while you do other things with your hands. But for a defensive blade, I think it's too much of a liability.

Cecil Burch
12-17-2018, 02:47 PM
No. I wouldn't spend my money on what he is teaching, because it's very clearly not applicable to my circumstances. Or any circumstances really, unless you believe an opponent will be static and you can slash and wave your knife around in a circle. :rolleyes:

This:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxPC8yhJDu4

Versus This:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7MG6zfj6Hw


Holy moley. That knife deployment and thrust at :45. If that is typical........

Totem Polar
12-17-2018, 03:22 PM
No. I wouldn't spend my money on what he is teaching, because it's very clearly not applicable to my circumstances. Or any circumstances really, unless you believe an opponent will be static and you can slash and wave your knife around in a circle. :rolleyes:


I made it as far as "why do you think the ‘way’ of blade training is dying out?" (Are you kidding me?) And the response begining of “in tne old warrior days..." before my own personal BS meter needle hit the stop peg on the right.

I mean, we’re all members of this forum, and it’s no secret that a bunch of us are Shivworks alumni—to say nothing of the instructor who’s already chimed in, so yeah, koolaid and all that.

But what I don’t go around here saying is that I have a dan ranking in a TMA, and had my own dojo when I was younger; plus, I’ve taken a number of weekenders with some very well-known FMA guys. We need to stand on the shoulders of the people and traditions that preceeded us, and for sure "the further back you look, the further forward you can see."

But when I get even a whiff of "ancestor veneration" taking precedence over stinky fist helmets, and debriefs coming back from today’s urban conflict environments, I’m gonna start checking out. I mean, I’ll do it politely because I’m a super low key guy, but unless we’re discussing Hans Tallhoffer and the 15th-c longsword, the jejune ScarJo sexual fantasies that I keep on file for DMV or doctor office waiting rooms is going to bubble to the surface while the thigh holster crowd talks about how cool the old light bulb was. JMO, IANASME, etc.

TQP
12-17-2018, 05:50 PM
Knife Center has them on sale now.

CRTK Obake (https://www.knifecenter.com/item/CR2367/columbia-river-2367-lucas-burnley-obake-fixed-gray-blade-cord-wrapped-handle-with-black-faux-ray-skin-molded-sheath)

(Edit: Multiple versions available at that price, that's just the 1st one that came up)

I have a CP, I don't NEED any more fixed blade EDCs. But it's so shiny!

Totem Polar
12-17-2018, 05:56 PM
Knife Center has them on sale now.

CRTK Obake (https://www.knifecenter.com/item/CR2367/columbia-river-2367-lucas-burnley-obake-fixed-gray-blade-cord-wrapped-handle-with-black-faux-ray-skin-molded-sheath)

I have a CP, I don't NEED any more fixed blade EDCs. But it's so shiny!

I've seen a family of 4 spend more than that on a morning latte order. That's about as guilt-free as those surefire sidekicks for 19 bucks. If you're looking for permission, I'll give you permission to buy 4 Obakes. Glad I could be of help.


;)

Totem Polar
12-17-2018, 06:58 PM
Knife Center has them on sale now.

CRTK Obake (https://www.knifecenter.com/item/CR2367/columbia-river-2367-lucas-burnley-obake-fixed-gray-blade-cord-wrapped-handle-with-black-faux-ray-skin-molded-sheath)


I caved. Got a couple on the way.

Isaac
12-17-2018, 07:43 PM
Another thing w/ the knife holes, prob not easy to thread finger thru in an ambush or FUT.
Obake handle was way to thin for me.

breakingtime91
12-17-2018, 07:51 PM
obake design makes me worried about sliding onto the blade when it has blood on it. Just sayin..

Warped Mindless
12-17-2018, 08:11 PM
I know people on P-F generally hate the Colonel Blade but give it a look. The ring is made oversized and "ovalish" shape so harming your finger is much less likely.

Originally I wrote off the knife as being a gimmick but quite a few spec ops and other military guys around here have ditched their socp dagger in favor of the colonel blade for off duty carry.

Another one I like, and is really inexpensive, is the SOG Instinct.

Blades
12-17-2018, 08:20 PM
Those with an Obake, how are you carrying it?

jc000
12-17-2018, 08:25 PM
This really shouldn't be a Tu Lam thread.

Just sayin'…

RevolverRob
12-17-2018, 10:07 PM
This really shouldn't be a Tu Lam thread.

Just sayin'…

Agreed, so let's move it on.

What size envelope are you looking for? Carry method (pocket shield, IWB, horizontal on belt, etc.)?

For on the belt, I go Clinch Pick. For IWB a Spyderco Reverse (no longer made, but the Ronin 2 is a similar size envelope). And for the pocket...well I haven't made up my mind. Right now, my pocket shield has a clinch pick on it, but I don't like the draw stroke, the CP doesn't have enough handle for me and the egg shape prints more than a flatter knife would.

Joe in PNG
12-18-2018, 12:56 AM
Those with an Obake, how are you carrying it?

I usually stick it under my left front belt loop blade down and handle center, and use the lanyard to attach it.
The looped laynard goes in the top eyelet (with the knot inside), over the bottom of the belt loop into the second eyelet, then under the sheath and over the top of the belt loop, under the sheath, and under the knot. I pull it all tight, then out through the long loop, and secure with one of those spring tight thingys (removed from a jacket drawstring).
Holds pretty good, with or without a belt, and super easy & quick to draw with either hand.

One thing about my Obake is the sheath was a bit loose. I took a bit of red shrink tube (the rubbery kind), and put a 1/4" ring around the front, where the retention ridges are.
Holds a whole lot better now.

jc000
12-18-2018, 09:21 AM
What size envelope are you looking for? Carry method (pocket shield, IWB, horizontal on belt, etc.)?

I currently carry horizontal on belt. It's fine but would consider IWB (appendix weak side) or pocket w / lanyard. I don't get on with the pocket shield, haven't used mine in months.

The CP is obviously a serious option but aesthetics (I know) keep me from the China Pick options, and the BT DE versions (my preference) are just super pricy. I do like your NOK trainer recommendation though, and the SE CP option presented above might be the way to go.

I still think that right at $200, the Spartan SOCP w / trainer option looks promising. Maybe picking up the NOK CP and Spartan trainer and playing around with them in a competitive training environment is the way to go.

RevolverRob
12-18-2018, 01:18 PM
I currently carry horizontal on belt. It's fine but would consider IWB (appendix weak side) or pocket w / lanyard. I don't get on with the pocket shield, haven't used mine in months.

The CP is obviously a serious option but aesthetics (I know) keep me from the China Pick options, and the BT DE versions (my preference) are just super pricy. I do like your NOK trainer recommendation though, and the SE CP option presented above might be the way to go.

I still think that right at $200, the Spartan SOCP w / trainer option looks promising. Maybe picking up the NOK CP and Spartan trainer and playing around with them in a competitive training environment is the way to go.

Look at the options JB Knife & Tool have - https://www.jbknifeandtool.com/collections/customized-knives - A DE Ditchpik, Mini-Pik, or Hybrid might be right up your alley. The Sakit is very Clinchpick-like and has the blessing of Craig in its design (i.e., not a "rip-off").

orionz06
12-18-2018, 06:29 PM
No. I wouldn't spend my money on what he is teaching, because it's very clearly not applicable to my circumstances. Or any circumstances really, unless you believe an opponent will be static and you can slash and wave your knife around in a circle. :rolleyes:

This:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxPC8yhJDu4


Holy shit.

UniSol
12-19-2018, 08:54 AM
...when I get even a whiff of "ancestor veneration" taking precedence over stinky fist helmets, and debriefs coming back from today’s urban conflict environments, I’m gonna start checking out. I mean, I’ll do it politely because I’m a super low key guy, but unless we’re discussing Hans Tallhoffer and the 15th-c longsword, the jejune ScarJo sexual fantasies that I keep on file for DMV or doctor office waiting rooms is going to bubble to the surface while the thigh holster crowd talks about how cool the old light bulb was. JMO, IANASME, etc.

I like the Talhoffer reference. We had a HEMA guest instructor at a Judo dojo my BIL goes to. I think he was showing Fiore stuff. It was remarkably similar to the Judo stuff. We didnt even touch weapons for the first hour, just clinch, trips, and throws.

UniSol
12-19-2018, 07:09 PM
Those with an Obake, how are you carrying it?

I carry mine on a dog tag type chain as a neck knife back up to a spyderco reverse on my weak side.

feudist
12-19-2018, 11:01 PM
I like the Talhoffer reference. We had a HEMA guest instructor at a Judo dojo my BIL goes to. I think he was showing Fiore stuff. It was remarkably similar to the Judo stuff. We didnt even touch weapons for the first hour, just clinch, trips, and throws.

Fiore Dei Liberi should be more recognized in the West than Musashi.

Isaac
12-20-2018, 06:18 PM
Wow, those JB prices are pretty good!

jc000
12-21-2018, 10:58 AM
Wow, those JB prices are pretty good!

Yes those look like pretty cool options for sure. Are they PF-members? Just wondering…

Isaac
12-21-2018, 07:04 PM
No idea, wouldn't be surprised tho!

Tho, I think you should get the blade you want. Who cares if the the guy on the video is a mix of Segal and Van Damme in Cyborg, it's fun to get the toy you want and you will appreciate it more and prob carry it more. Lets face it, 95% of us won't use our shit anyway.

RevolverRob
12-24-2018, 03:21 PM
Yes those look like pretty cool options for sure. Are they PF-members? Just wondering…

I don’t believe so. But they are nice guys to deal with and have a good rep with FB/Instagram/USN/Bladeforums groups. I know they recently setup a new shop in San Antonio with some other bladesmiths (South Texas Association of Bladesmiths, yea, S.T.A.B) with two Forged in Fire champ bladesmiths sharing space with them. They are doing grind and forge-ins and classes. In other words, they take knives seriously and seem to care about giving back to the broader knife community. All great reasons to support them.

BigD
12-25-2018, 05:02 PM
Wow, those JB prices are pretty good!

That’s the deposit listed in that link. It’s $180 for a crude 2.25” blade made out of 1/8” tool steel with a cord wrap handle.

Isaac
12-26-2018, 08:37 AM
ohhh. oops!

RevolverRob
12-26-2018, 10:23 AM
That’s the deposit listed in that link. It’s $180 for a crude 2.25” blade made out of 1/8” tool steel with a cord wrap handle.

Right, those were the deposit links. But the jute wrapped knives with rough finishes are about $110, not $180. The scaled, polished, knives are $180+.

I know it seems like I'm against the Ronin Sakura by Spartan because of Tu Lam, I am not. Ring knives can be as dangerous to the stabber as the stabbee and I won't advocate something that can injure you. In terms of knife execution and design, there are lots of good knives out there, from as little as $25 to as much as several thousand. It's a sharpened hunk of steel. As long as it is sharp and doesn't break when you use it, you're doing pretty well overall. I suggested the JB Knives, because they are priced at a point lower than Spartan knives, American-made, by a couple of guys who care seriously about giving back to the broader community. I don't think you can go wrong buying a Spartan or a JB (or a Clinch Pick from China or one from Ban Tang).

At the end of the day a user needs to find a handle shape and blade shape that works best for their preferred mechanics and delivery system, ground that delivery system against resisting opponents and pressure test access and delivery against that resisting opponent, and get it done. Blade shape is tertiary, in my opinion, to handle shape and handle materials. Handle shapes need to fill the hand and prevent twisting, many knives have handles that are too narrow to effectively do this. Handle materials need to be sticky enough to stay in the hand during stabbing, but loose enough to allow you to let go of the knife should you need to.

In my experience, designs that are focused on positional changes of blade in hand usually compromise grip by narrowing it or relying on retention methods (i.e., rings). In my (admittedly limited) applicational experience with a knife, you're far more likely to hand switch, than to switch grips, when entangled. A knife that denies me hand switching in favor of position switching would be far less practical. In reviewing various real life stabbings and knife fights and training videos, my anecdotal observations support that whatever position the hand gets the knife out in, is the position that hand will use until the knife is dropped or switched between hands. In other words, you're going to do your stabbing with the grip you have setup for access. Eventually if someone has a 2-hands-on-1 on your knife hand and doesn't position themselves well, you'll see a hand switch and the knife will go back to stabbing. Rings facilitate retention and position switching and that's not what I want in a knife add in the potential for injury to the user and it's a bad idea all the way around.

BigD
12-26-2018, 11:06 AM
Right, those were the deposit links. But the jute wrapped knives with rough finishes are about $110, not $180. The scaled, polished, knives are $180+.



Thanks for the correction.





In my experience,...

I was with you until you started talking about your experience.

RevolverRob
12-26-2018, 03:17 PM
I was with you until you started talking about your experience.

Look, I've tried really hard to not call you out, because I'm not sure what your problem is. But I find your posts to lack substance or helpfulness, but never lacking in an acerbic or underhanded statement and thus far I've been left to conclude the "D" in BigD stands for "Dickhead".

So help us understand your experience and perspective to let us know where you are coming from and why I should care about what you post in this or any other thread? I spent a while reviewing your posts last night and I was unable to find a place where you tell us your experience or various training/qualifications/background/experiences/etc to put into perspective what you post.

If you don't wish to share your backgrounds, qualifications, or reasons for your criticisms that's fine; I'm happy to put you onto my ignore list.

-Rob

BigD
12-26-2018, 05:04 PM
I'm happy to put you onto my ignore list.

-Rob

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?32016-What-Happens-When-a-Business-Leader-Takes-Over-a-Major-University&p=761212&highlight=revolverrob#post761212

Now I remember replying to you previously.

You are going to want to put me on your ignore list.

RevolverRob
12-26-2018, 05:20 PM
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?32016-What-Happens-When-a-Business-Leader-Takes-Over-a-Major-University&p=761212&highlight=revolverrob#post761212

Now I remember replying to you previously.

You are going to want to put me on your ignore list.

Got ya, D stands for Dickhead.

Adios.

BigD
12-26-2018, 07:01 PM
You, might also want to avoid intentionally being a person that needs to tell people to put you on ignore. Ot not, I'm not the boss of you and I'm sure you've got good reasons to conduct yourself however you chose. We've all got to decide what's best for ourselves and then make choices that align with our goals. Or not. :cool:

This know-it-all blowhard calls me a dickhead after I wryly point out he has no experience? I won’t lose any sleep over being on his ignore list.

runcible
12-26-2018, 07:58 PM
BigD,

It might be helpful if you were to post your own experience on such matters. Would you care to, please?

luckyman
12-26-2018, 09:26 PM
BigD,

It might be helpful if you were to post your own experience on such matters. Would you care to, please?

Yes please! I second this request.

I’m *always* going to someone’s profile whenever they make any sort of interesting comment; to understand the context they are bringing, and many times to figure out where in the country/world they are located.

feudist
12-27-2018, 11:33 PM
I caved. Got a couple on the way.

Got mine today. Very nice! Heavier than I expected.

Totem Polar
12-28-2018, 12:21 AM
Got mine today. Very nice! Heavier than I expected.

Very cool, for the money. I’m glad I picked up a couple.

Malemute
02-05-2019, 02:42 PM
I'll just shoot the straight shit - What Tu Lam knows about knives and practical knife combat could fit into a thimble with room left over. I respect the man's service but fifteen minutes of watching him talk about knives and training techniques tells me that everything he knows about blade application is theoretical not based on practice and application. He has been busily turning his service record into a lucrative training business for wannabe Green Berets and that's all well and good, but what he teaches has exceptionally limited application and minimal reality based aspects to it.

So...

You watched a video (YouTube?) for 15 minutes and that is the basis for your opinion and perhaps unnecessary "digs" regarding successfully converting his military career and training/experiences (of which you know nothing of) into a respectable civilian occupation and business?

And your credentials are...?

That said - first and foremost the Sakura is a well considered, designed, and manufactured knife. Is it pricey? Absolutely. But if one can afford it and has her/his own reasons for wanting one - like buying a Wilson Combat .45 over a serviceable and solid .45 caliber "whichever" - it's a buyer/user marketplace.

Knives with a finger ring feature have been around for centuries. Like any other form of equipment they have their good points and bad. Bottom Line Up Front - "Use what you know and know what you use". The Sakura is as promoted - an EDC that is minimal in blade length (double edged or single), light, compact, and well made. At 3.5" in blade length it is an effective edged weapon for thrusts/insertions into soft tissue areas such as the calves, hips, hands, forearms, upper arms, throat area, lower stomach/belly, face. An insertion co-occurring with a full or partial slash during withdrawal of the blade from the wound can sever an artery (e.g. inner upper thighs) and that leads pretty swiftly to blackout and death.

In reality, a single insertion (or as you term it, "stab") can end a confrontation right there and then - and not lethally. Self-defense if you have to use a weapon (e.g. knife) in the US is to stop the aggressive, potentially maiming/disfiguring/death producing assault on you. A good insertion can/will produce pain compliance and sometimes "instant sobriety/clarity" on the attacker's part. In short, and pardon the pun, 3 1/2" inches of sharpened steel punched through your palm just might induce you to cease, desist, and run away.

In military CQB, or Close Quarter Battle, if the knife (any knife) is relied upon the engagement is necessarily extremely violent and swift from start to finish. As in 2-5 seconds if you're facing a trained and determined opponent whose intent is to take you out permanently. Scenarios include deployment of the knife in extremely tight quarters (either environmentally or "head/knees/elbows" range) with break-contact-engage with sidearm/rifle...or simply within a range of commitment (there are four such ranges; kicking/arm's length/head-knees-elbows/ground) where the knife is the primary means of attack or defense.

A well trained individual, and oft times anymore experienced individual, can and will deliver as many debilitating insertions/slashes/pommel strikes as fast as possible to take her/his opponent out of play. As the Filipino combative arts teaches "Three strikes and the man is down". There is truly no such thing as an extended "knife fight". Situational awareness may include multiple attackers, reinforcement, and/or pressing forward with an assault or breaking contact / escape and evasion.

Oh, and that's what Tu Lam teaches depending on the make up of his classes student wise.

The chances of the ring on the Sakura, once properly trained with (and training is a never ending process just like Selection is) somehow injuring one's inserted finger are minimal at best. Especially if the hand is gloved (which the ring is designed to allow). First, you're trained and training with the knife; Second, the knife is encased in your hand and held - literally - in a death grip anyway; Third, the attacking/defending cycle is swift, 2-5 seconds; and lastly...you don't have to utilize the ring feature to begin with.

Note: In scenarios where the knife is first brought into play to distract/break contact and transition to another weapon (e.g. firearm) or to simply evade/retreat it is possible and likely the knife, once inserted, will be abandoned in the wound or dropped upon withdrawal as the transition cycle begins.

In conclusion - the Sakura is a well considered edged option and its designer, Tu Lam, is likewise as a CQB instructor.

As for "wanna be" Green Berets I imagine there are as many of those out there on the mats as there are wanna-be knife experts on the Internet...just say'in.

Finally, from one of my Special Forces brothers with far more combat deployments than I was able to collect, his thought process about knives focused on mission requirement. He had an inventory of inexpensive fixed blades and folders that he could, if necessary and in the right environment (e.g. urban) use as throw-aways; and more well made and expensive knives he could/would use per the mission set and his experience in the region/environment/situation at hand. Therefore your suggestions of other models/makers and price range is qualified per the above - with the Sakura (as an example) fitting into an entirely different planning and mission thought process if affordable.

It's the individual, trained or untrained, experienced or inexperienced, behind the weapon system that makes the difference, not the weapons system itself. Sheer grit and never quitting combined with the desire to survive live most often determines who lives and who dies.

Which is what Tu Lam also teaches.

De Oppresso Liber!

Jay Cunningham
02-06-2019, 06:13 AM
Keeping an eye on this thread.

RevolverRob
02-06-2019, 12:20 PM
So...

You watched a video (YouTube?) for 15 minutes and that is the basis for your opinion and perhaps unnecessary "digs" regarding successfully converting his military career and training/experiences (of which you know nothing of) into a respectable civilian occupation and business?

And your credentials are...?

That said - first and foremost the Sakura is a well considered, designed, and manufactured knife. Is it pricey? Absolutely. But if one can afford it and has her/his own reasons for wanting one - like buying a Wilson Combat .45 over a serviceable and solid .45 caliber "whichever" - it's a buyer/user marketplace.

Knives with a finger ring feature have been around for centuries. Like any other form of equipment they have their good points and bad. Bottom Line Up Front - "Use what you know and know what you use". The Sakura is as promoted - an EDC that is minimal in blade length (double edged or single), light, compact, and well made. At 3.5" in blade length it is an effective edged weapon for thrusts/insertions into soft tissue areas such as the calves, hips, hands, forearms, upper arms, throat area, lower stomach/belly, face. An insertion co-occurring with a full or partial slash during withdrawal of the blade from the wound can sever an artery (e.g. inner upper thighs) and that leads pretty swiftly to blackout and death.

In reality, a single insertion (or as you term it, "stab") can end a confrontation right there and then - and not lethally. Self-defense if you have to use a weapon (e.g. knife) in the US is to stop the aggressive, potentially maiming/disfiguring/death producing assault on you. A good insertion can/will produce pain compliance and sometimes "instant sobriety/clarity" on the attacker's part. In short, and pardon the pun, 3 1/2" inches of sharpened steel punched through your palm just might induce you to cease, desist, and run away.

In military CQB, or Close Quarter Battle, if the knife (any knife) is relied upon the engagement is necessarily extremely violent and swift from start to finish. As in 2-5 seconds if you're facing a trained and determined opponent whose intent is to take you out permanently. Scenarios include deployment of the knife in extremely tight quarters (either environmentally or "head/knees/elbows" range) with break-contact-engage with sidearm/rifle...or simply within a range of commitment (there are four such ranges; kicking/arm's length/head-knees-elbows/ground) where the knife is the primary means of attack or defense.

A well trained individual, and oft times anymore experienced individual, can and will deliver as many debilitating insertions/slashes/pommel strikes as fast as possible to take her/his opponent out of play. As the Filipino combative arts teaches "Three strikes and the man is down". There is truly no such thing as an extended "knife fight". Situational awareness may include multiple attackers, reinforcement, and/or pressing forward with an assault or breaking contact / escape and evasion.

Oh, and that's what Tu Lam teaches depending on the make up of his classes student wise.

The chances of the ring on the Sakura, once properly trained with (and training is a never ending process just like Selection is) somehow injuring one's inserted finger are minimal at best. Especially if the hand is gloved (which the ring is designed to allow). First, you're trained and training with the knife; Second, the knife is encased in your hand and held - literally - in a death grip anyway; Third, the attacking/defending cycle is swift, 2-5 seconds; and lastly...you don't have to utilize the ring feature to begin with.

Note: In scenarios where the knife is first brought into play to distract/break contact and transition to another weapon (e.g. firearm) or to simply evade/retreat it is possible and likely the knife, once inserted, will be abandoned in the wound or dropped upon withdrawal as the transition cycle begins.

In conclusion - the Sakura is a well considered edged option and its designer, Tu Lam, is likewise as a CQB instructor.

As for "wanna be" Green Berets I imagine there are as many of those out there on the mats as there are wanna-be knife experts on the Internet...just say'in.

Finally, from one of my Special Forces brothers with far more combat deployments than I was able to collect, his thought process about knives focused on mission requirement. He had an inventory of inexpensive fixed blades and folders that he could, if necessary and in the right environment (e.g. urban) use as throw-aways; and more well made and expensive knives he could/would use per the mission set and his experience in the region/environment/situation at hand. Therefore your suggestions of other models/makers and price range is qualified per the above - with the Sakura (as an example) fitting into an entirely different planning and mission thought process if affordable.

It's the individual, trained or untrained, experienced or inexperienced, behind the weapon system that makes the difference, not the weapons system itself. Sheer grit and never quitting combined with the desire to survive live most often determines who lives and who dies.

Which is what Tu Lam also teaches.

De Oppresso Liber!

Edited: Deleted.

GuanoLoco
02-07-2019, 09:30 AM
Keeping an eye on this thread.

Watching

Malemute
02-07-2019, 12:38 PM
Watching

The Sakura also comes with a red (to distinguish swiftly from the "live" blade) training knife. The trainer likewise fits into the sheath so draws/kinetic retention drills can be practiced.

And the trainer allows for both group and private training with the knife design which is extremely important. Where training blades have long been available they are most often separate purchase items and not necessarily an emulation of one's carry knife. Ronin Tactics/Tu Lam provided the "total package" with the Sakura and at a quality level that meets the pricing.

That said, Sakuras can be found on sites such as Arizona Custom Knives which offers pre-owned knives at good prices. Two Sakuras were recently sold by ACK - at prices a bit less than retail and with the trainers.

For several years now I've owned/used a small fixed blade skinning knife with ring feature made by Oregon knifemaker Gary Griffin. The grip is para-cord wrapped and the classic skinning knife blade design is just under 3", single edged, of course. Kydex sheath. It makes for an excellent daily carry knife and would do fine for self-defense purposes if pressed into that role. Very light and easily concealed on the belt - it draws little attention.

Gary is also an extremely solid martial artist to include the Filipino KALI and Escrima schools of stick and knife work so he applies that knowledge in the knives he designs and makes, as well.

Malemute
02-09-2019, 09:47 AM
Finally, the ring on the Sakura also serves as an impact feature.

Meaning it is not necessary to thrust/insert or slash with the blade in a CQB situation. Whether in the forward or reverse grip the ring, or pommel if you will, of the Sakura can be used to induce blunt force pain / pain compliance or to stun if applied to either side of the jaw, forehead, back of skull, or nose. Bear in mind striking the temple on either side of the skull can result in serious and possibly fatal injury as the bone structure in this region is very thin.

One can also use the ring/pommel to effect an arm bar take-down, for example, or to strike at nerve centers such as on the outer thigh, back of either hand (nerves/bone), top of the foot if light or no footwear is present, and so on. Pain/pain compliance is a good thing and you don't have to break the opponent's skin / cause serious internal physical damage to create it.

Insertion/slashing techniques can be combined with ring/pommel strikes in swift order. As noted in an earlier post on the Sakura the key is no more than three strikes to negate the Threat. Refining your skill sets with the Sakura training blade helps develop this mindset as well as technique. You can train solo/in private, with a partner, or using training dummies, posts, or the classical "mook" found in many dojos/dojangs.

This is just an overview of the ring/pommel feature and its application possibilities. Other considerations include developing the draw, speed/violence of attack or counter-attack, targeting (upper/lower/middle gates), angles of attack (the basic 1-5 from the Filipino martial arts work just fine for most), and emotional control/management during the confrontation.

The design is well thought out, practical in trained hands, compact where mounting or carrying is concerned, extremely well made to include the sheath and trainer, and an edged tool/weapon you can count on if needed.

I have long recommended Master at Arms James Keating's excellent DVD "Reverse Grip Knife Fighting", or DrawPoint Volumes 1&2 as they are now titled. These are excellent educational references/study programs that lend themselves nicely to better application and training with the Sakura.