bomb threat on a bus

[barstoolguru]

how would you handle this?
me; I would have to shoot him.

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20120307/NEWS/303070077

[LOKNLOD]

I'd shoot the hostage and keep it over 50 mph.

[rd62]

I'd get the heck off the bus and let the cops handle it.

I'd suggest anyone else on the bus do the same.

But then I don't ride Greyhound buses.

[JeffJ]

What would shooting him accomplish?

[barstoolguru]

What would shooting him accomplish?


Makes it easier to throw him off....really do you wait and see if he does have a bomb? When you are trapped on a bus, plane or train there is no place to go. All our lives we are taught to sit and let the authorities handle it but that strategy doesn't work as we learned from 9/11. 4 terrorist controlled over 250 people because we are told to sit. that it's the right thing to do but as we know it wasn't.

[Joseph B.]

I'd shoot the hostage and keep it over 50 mph.

LOL I got a good laugh out of this!


I really don't know what I would do, if I had a clear shot and the threat seemed real, there was not a possibility of non-combatant being hit, I might take the shot. However, way too many variables to give a defendant answer to the question. I think someone would have to make several judgment calls in this situation and I would not be willing to say one is better than the other. From the article, it sounds like the incident worked out the best for all parties involved.

[barstoolguru]

I will say one thing and that is when someone has a bomb on them and is going to detonate it they have already made the decision to die so for that one reason it should be dealt with quick

[SouthNarc]

What if the bomber is holding a dead man's switch?

[Joseph B.]

What if the bomber is holding a dead man's switch?

And there it is......unless you have all the details you can turn a bad situation into a worse one. There is a reason why most of the people trained to deal with these situations train to use force as a last option.

[deejai]

Im not familiar with bombs, but isnt there a chance of detonating the device if you accidently struck it with a bullet?

[JDM]

Im not familiar with bombs, but isnt there a chance of detonating the device if you accidently struck it with a bullet?

Depends largely on the explosive used.

[TCinVA]

When you are trapped on a bus, plane or train there is no place to go. All our lives we are taught to sit and let the authorities handle it but that strategy doesn't work as we learned from 9/11. 4 terrorist controlled over 250 people because we are told to sit. that it's the right thing to do but as we know it wasn't.

The 9/11 hijacking was slightly different. And by "slightly different" I mean that the first thing the terrorists did was kill the flight crew. It's rather difficult to misconstrue a terrorist actively stabbing an airline pilot to death, you know?

In this instance the dude didn't actually have a bomb and from the sound of it never displayed anything resembling a bomb. Thus had you shot him in the face you may have found yourself answering unpleasant questions from law enforcement and perhaps even a jury of your peers.

The key question at the center of a use of force is whether or not your actions were reasonable...and to an extent the reasonableness of your actions will be judged with the 20/20 vision of hindsight. If a dude gets on a bus and claims to have a bomb but doesn't display a device, is it more reasonable to shoot him in the face in case he's right, or to exit the bus and call the cops?

[Zhurdan]

The 9/11 hijacking was slightly different. And by "slightly different" I mean that the first thing the terrorists did was kill the flight crew. It's rather difficult to misconstrue a terrorist actively stabbing an airline pilot to death, you know?

In this instance the dude didn't actually have a bomb and from the sound of it never displayed anything resembling a bomb. Thus had you shot him in the face you may have found yourself answering unpleasant questions from law enforcement and perhaps even a jury of your peers.

The key question at the center of a use of force is whether or not your actions were reasonable...and to an extent the reasonableness of your actions will be judged with the 20/20 vision of hindsight. If a dude gets on a bus and claims to have a bomb but doesn't display a device, is it more reasonable to shoot him in the face in case he's right, or to exit the bus and call the cops?

Other variables... is the bus moving? Hard to get off of one at 65 mph. I'd bide my time until it was very apparent that he was going to do something uhhh... rash. Honestly, that situation is one in which you are very much at the mercy of the turd. Many variables come into play. As mentioned, dead mans switch, another man on the bus who will detonate it, another man off the bus that could call it in.

Perhaps going hands on and tackling the turd, keep his hands occupied and get the bus driver to stop ASAP would be the least violent approach, but that still leaves the outside influences. One cell phone call and BOOM, it's over.

Keep in mind, I'm just spit balling here, but I've always found it useful to run different scenarios over and over in my mind. You never know when you'll need a 60% answer to a problem right the frak now!

[peterb]

Folks can say strange things and/or become violent for a host of reasons other than hostility -- diabetic reactions, head trauma, high fever, drug reactions, etc. It looks bad when you shoot someone because they forgot to eat breakfast that morning.

I'd try to talk to the person. Ask them useful questions: What kind of bomb? How does it work? Where is it? Why us? The answers -- and manner in which they are answered -- could go a long way towards indicating if the threat is serious.

[GOP]

A bomb threat on a bus? Unfortunately, you may have to wait it out until someone like SWAT or FBI HRT gets there (you know, guys with numbers, negotiators, long rifles, snipers, flash bangs, less lethal, and EMT backup) just like every other passenger. Shooting a dude with a bomb introduces a ton of responsibility into your life. You have just decided to take the lives of all of the other passengers (and potentially other cars/bystanders) in your hands. With your pistol. By yourself. With no medical back up. Generally, people who go onto a bus threatening to use a bomb WANT something. People that go onto a bus to blow it up generally don't announce their intentions (look at Hamas' tactics).

Of course, this all can be avoided by avoiding buses. After a couple of weird moments on MARTA, public transportation is almost officially on my "stupid places" list.

[JeffJ]

I asked, "What does shooting him accomplish?" and the answer was that it removes the threat. I think the stream of info that came after that takes care of my follow up question which would be "How does that remove the threat"

The article didn't say that he displayed a bomb or claimed to have a bomb on his person, maybe it's under the bus in his luggage - maybe he's crazy. If he does have some sort of detonator on him, whether or not its a "dead man switch" how is your pistol going to solve that problem? I don't doubt that there are some people on this board that can make a CNS shot from the back of a moving bus to stop a moving around ranting madman - but I'm not one of them. I'm going to have shoot multilple times to COM to try and put that guy down - in which time he can easily detonate - its an F'ing handgun, it doesn't cause somebody to blow backwards and fling whatever he's holding in the air.

[jmjames]

Police don't shoot people who claim to have bombs, it is a last resort for them. They have very good reasons for it. While police procedure may not always be the best thing for civilians to follow (because they have some different parameters and goals from time to time), if the police have a really good reason for an established procedure, I think that tells us something.

The 9/11 comparison is poor, because the terrorists didn't claim to have a destructive device that could instantly kill everyone on board, they had weapons which could have been defeated with numerical superiority. A bomber can destroy everyone on the bus in an instant or in a struggle, depending on the bomb and detonation mechanism. Furthermore, the 9/11 terrorists had already displayed a credible threat, while someone claiming to have a bomb has not done so.

J.Ja

[MechEng]

Considering the lack of detail in the story and not having specifics on how the event unfolded I would make a simple plan. Get off the bus first chance you get and run like hell.

[peterb]

If you felt that the situation required immediate action to save innocent lives, and evacuating the bus was not an option, a coordinated physical attack would probably be more decisive than shooting. If you can see that he isn't holding a deadman switch, having a person grab each limb might be a reasonable way of preventing him from reaching a concealed detonator. I wouldn't rely on COM pistol shots for instant immobilization.

[barstoolguru]

so we are on a bus going 65 mph down the interstate and a man jumps up and says "I have a bomb" when are you expecting someone to intervene?

Why are you carrying a gun to start with; for self protection! So if a man has/claims a bomb is this not a threat to YOUR life?

Some states say you have to retreat before using deadly force; hello you’re on a bus where you going to go?

It sounds to me like you have a right to pull your gun and if anything put the threat in check and disarm him if you can.
And yes every situation need evaluating but if the threat can be neutralized why wouldn't you take the chance.


and no I'm not a professional but I am for the most part responsible for my own life

[JDM]

so we are on a bus going 65 mph down the interstate and a man jumps up and says "I have a bomb" when are you expecting someone to intervene?

Why are you carrying a gun to start with; for self protection! So if a man has/claims a bomb is this not a threat to YOUR life?

Some states say you have to retreat before using deadly force; hello you’re on a bus where you going to go?

It sounds to me like you have a right to pull your gun and if anything put the threat in check and disarm him if you can.
And yes every situation need evaluating but if the threat can be neutralized why wouldn't you take the chance.


and no I'm not a professional but I am for the most part responsible for my own life

Disarm him? As in go hands on with him and take his weapon (bomb) off him?

[peterb]

So if a man has/claims a bomb is this not a threat to YOUR life?

Nope. A man standing at the other end of the bus claiming to have a bomb is not an immediate threat to my life. He has not yet shown that he has the ability to harm me.

Ability, opportunity, jeopardy...

If he has a bomb, he is a threat to my life, but shooting him is a solution ONLY IF I know exactly how the bomb is detonated, that immobilizing him will prevent the detonation, and that I am sure I can instantly immobilize him.

[barstoolguru]

and no I'm not a professional but I am for the most part responsible for my own life

I was thinking more like stick my gun in his face and tell him if he moves he is as good as dead!


Nope. A man standing at the other end of the bus claiming to have a bomb is not an immediate threat to my life. He has not yet shown that he has the ability to harm me.

to me this is a terroristic threat and a clear threat to everyones life. if he says "I have a gun" and reaches in his pocket are you going to wait for him to stick it in your face before you react? NO, so why are you going to wait for him to show or even activate the bomb. he made the threat and I as a citizen have a right to protect yourself.

What is a Terroristic Threat?
September 16th, 2009
According to the Texas Penal Code, a person can be charged with the offense of terroristic threat if he/she “threatens to commit any offense involving violence to any person or property with intent to place any person in fear of imminent, serious bodily injury.”
taken from:
http://www.scheinerlaw.com/blog/what-is-a-terroristic-threat/165/

[jmjames]

so we are on a bus going 65 mph down the interstate and a man jumps up and says "I have a bomb" when are you expecting someone to intervene?

Why are you carrying a gun to start with; for self protection! So if a man has/claims a bomb is this not a threat to YOUR life?

Some states say you have to retreat before using deadly force; hello you’re on a bus where you going to go?

It sounds to me like you have a right to pull your gun and if anything put the threat in check and disarm him if you can.
And yes every situation need evaluating but if the threat can be neutralized why wouldn't you take the chance.


and no I'm not a professional but I am for the most part responsible for my own life

Even if you have a "right" to use force (and in not all jurisdictions will the mere claim of a bomb be sufficient to exercise that right), it doesn't mean it's a good idea.

As you say, "if the threat can be neutralized why wouldn't you take the chance". Well, 1) you don't know "if the threat can be neutralized" and 2) you are "taking a chance" in a situation that not only endangers you, but everyone else around you. I hope that you don't take lightly the fact that the fates of dozens of people on the bus, as well as anyone else in the blast radius or path of the bus is in your hands, should you choose to pull the trigger. With the right explosive and detonator and circumstances, you've just killed 50+ people by "neutralizing the threat".

Bomb scares are a very special case, and there's a reason why foot patrol police don't deal with them. You shouldn't either, you lack the information and experience and training to make a good decision as to the severity of the threat, the likelihood of others getting hurt, etc. You are making a decision from a position of complete ignorance, which is dangerous to say the least. The person making the bomb threat is the only person who knows what the real threat is.

If this is just you in a dark alley with an attacker, the calculus of self defense is a lot easier... it gets tougher in a gas station or liquor store... and on a crowded bus it's mighty complex. You are talking about a situation that is very similar to what an Air Marshall is trained to handle. Air Marshals have a pile of training a skill that I don't have.

This is the kind if scenario where yes, it's best to let the pros to handle it.

J.Ja

[peterb]

to me this is a terroristic threat and a clear threat to everyones life. if he says "I have a gun" and reaches in his pocket are you going to wait for him to stick it in your face before you react? NO, so why are you going to wait for him to show or even activate the bomb. he made the threat and I as a citizen have a right to protect yourself.

What is a Terroristic Threat?
September 16th, 2009
According to the Texas Penal Code, a person can be charged with the offense of terroristic threat if he/she “threatens to commit any offense involving violence to any person or property with intent to place any person in fear of imminent, serious bodily injury.”
taken from:
http://www.scheinerlaw.com/blog/what-is-a-terroristic-threat/165/

Read further on that page......

"This is a class B misdemeanor, punishable by up to 180 days in county jail and/or a maximum $2,000 fine. However, if the threat is made against a member of the family or a public servant, the charge becomes a class A misdemeanor, which is punishable by up to 1 year in county jail and/or up to a $4,000 fine."

So you want to kill someone for a misdemeanor offense?

[JeffJ]

I was thinking more like stick my gun in his face and tell him if he moves he is as good as dead

The guy is threating to blow up the bus that he is currently standing on, but you threating to kill him is going to difuse the situation????

I am all for defending yourself - I think that most likely it would end up being a justified shoot. However, I don't think pulling a gun out solves the problem - based on the very limited information in the article I can only see this going a few ways once a gun is pulled

Guy doesn't have a bomb - you shoot him - probably OK legally IANAL but for sure going to be a PITA and you just shot an unarmed, mentally unstable person (may or may not be a big deal to you)

Guy does have a bomb that is remotely detonated with some sort of dead man switch - you shoot him and the bomb goes off everybody dies

Guy has a bomb with some other sort of remote detonator - you shoot him, 50/50 on the bomb going off

Guy has a bomb in his luggage under the bus on some sort of timer - you shoot him - maybe everybody gets off in time, maybe not

Guy has a bomb - you threaten to kill him (the suicidal bomber) and it escalates the situation rapidly - bomb goes off - everybody dies

A pistol is a specialized tool - it doesn't fix everything

[barstoolguru]

When someone gets on a bus with a bomb he has one thing in mind to destroy life. you are right I am not a bomb expert and don't claim to know anything about it but I like my ass in one piece so if I am going to die from a bomber I feel like if there is something that can be done do it. We have been taught to sit and let the professionals handle it but as you can see they don't always get there is time. One thing 9-11 taught us is that sitting and waiting is not always the best idea



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fu-W2_nlAI0&feature=related



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEahnyD1w2o

[peterb]

From 2005:

The fatal shooting aboard American Airlines Flight 924 in Miami marked the first time federal air marshals have shot a passenger since the Sept. 11 attacks.

Rigoberto AlpizarForty-four-year-old Rigoberto Alpizar, an American citizen, was on the flight bound for Orlando. Before takeoff, passengers said, an agitated Alpizar pushed his way to the front of the plane with his wife behind him.

A witness said "I heard her say, "He's bipolar, he doesn't have his medicine." I heard the shots. She screamed, "My husband, my husband," and they detained her; they would not let her go."

Authorities said when Alpizar was confronted by two air marshals, he suggested he had a bomb in his backpack, ran into the jet way, refused an order to hit the ground and appeared to reach into his bag. At that point, they shot him.

JAMES BAUER, Federal Air Marshal Service, said "At some point, he uttered threatening words that included a sentence to the effect that he had bomb. There were federal air marshals on board the aircraft. They came out of cover confronted him and he remained non compliant with instructions. As he was attempting to evade them, his actions caused the FAM'S(Federal Air Marshals) to fire shots and in fact he is deceased."

There was no bomb found, and authorities say there's no evidence Alpizar was a terrorist.
----------------------------------------------------

Justified? Yes. But they're marshals, selected and trained for that job. I'd have a hard time sleeping if I pulled the trigger on a threat that proved to be false.

[Byron]

We have been taught to sit and let the professionals handle it but as you can see they don't always get there is time.
Unless I missed something, neither of your videos indicate that the bomber gave any threat or warning: just BOOM. That seems to be the trend with buses that are actually blown up.

Additionally, the first video seems to indicate that a package was remotely detonated, while the second says they are still investigating whether the bomber was on the bus.

So it seems as if there's almost nothing in common between the original article and the videos.


When someone gets on a bus with a bomb he has one thing in mind to destroy life.
If the only thing in the attacker's mind is to destroy life, why would he stand up and shout threats?

People have already mentioned it, but you don't seem to be acknowledging that there is a world of difference between a man nonchalantly getting on a bus and blowing it up, versus a someone who hops up and starts screaming threats.


I was thinking more like stick my gun in his face and tell him if he moves he is as good as dead!
So the man whose only thought is to destroy human life through suicide bombing will be scared of your handgun?

Just thinking out loud here... but if I was a suicide-bomber and was threatened with death, I'd just smile and click the detonator. You don't seem to have given your plan much thought.

[barstoolguru]

So the man whose only thought is to destroy human life through suicide bombing will be scared of your handgun?

Just thinking out loud here... but if I was a suicide-bomber and was threatened with death, I'd just smile and click the detonator. You don't seem to have given your plan much thought.

When plan A fails resort to plan B lead poisoning and hero worship :p

[Byron]

When plan A fails resort to plan B lead poisoning and hero worship :p
OK................. Is this thread serious or a joke? People are pointing out gaping holes in your plan, and you are alternating between wise-cracks and sermons.

[Jay Cunningham]

Well, since its not posted in Romper Room, it's supposed to be serious. Proceed accordingly.

[barstoolguru]

OK................. Is this thread serious or a joke? People are pointing out gaping holes in your plan, and you are alternating between wise-cracks and sermons.

No sermons on the rock here just an open decision on how to handle a situation. A nice blanket way to handle everything is say call a cop and let them do it but let’s face it here in d/fw area there is 600 cops on duty at any given time for 5 million people; call a cop and sometimes it takes 20+ minutes. Add that you are on an interstate in the middle of nowhere it is going to be a lot longer.

We are talking about a man with a bomb; do I want to give him time to think? He makes a threat and who knows if here is serious!
OK… if a cop is on the bus what would he do; IMO he would get up and draw a weapon and make an effort to control the subject so why wouldn’t I? my life is in jeopardy and I have a right to defend myself

[Kyle Reese]

No sermons on the rock here just an open decision on how to handle a situation. A nice blanket way to handle everything is say call a cop and let them do it but let’s face it here in d/fw area there is 600 cops on duty at any given time for 5 million people; call a cop and sometimes it takes 20+ minutes. Add that you are on an interstate in the middle of nowhere it is going to be a lot longer.

We are talking about a man with a bomb; do I want to give him time to think? He makes a threat and who knows if here is serious!
OK… if a cop is on the bus what would he do; IMO he would get up and draw a weapon and make an effort to control the subject so why wouldn’t I? my life is in jeopardy and I have a right to defend myself

Just curious - do you have any firsthand experience dealing with the situation (or similar) you described?

There are just so many variables at play that can go terribly wrong.

A "real" suicide bomber will not stand up on a bus, announce his intentions to the world, give you time to be the hero.

Chances are he/she will simply detonate and vaporize the occupants of said bus.

The methods / TTP's used by the bad guys are ever evolving, and very rarely mirror bad 1980's action movies.

Also, what level of training / proficiency do you possess that would enable you to successfully handle such a situation, should it occur?

I'm not picking on you, I'm just curious.

[barstoolguru]

Just an average Joe but I didn’t know I needed special talents to stop a mad man from blowing up a bus

And If a cop got on the bus and took a shot at the BG and MISSED and killed a civilian would it make the screw up any less than a screw up then if I did it?

And just because it sounds like a bad 80’s movie doesn’t mean like it can’t happen and now because there are a lot more CCWer’s out there the probability has increased of someone taking out the BG, saving the day and getting the woman don’t you think? (Sorry I had to throw that in: cheap comic relief)

[JDM]

Believe it or not, training on how to deal with suicide bombers and the like is of real value in these instances. Someone willing to put on a vest made of Semtex and ball bearings is not going to respond to the production of a pistol the same way a gangbanger knocking over the 7-11 would.

Further, unless you are comfortable making 100% hits on a moving, low probability target up to 20 yards away, you may not want to get involved at all until it becomes glaringly apparent that no other recourse is, or will become available.

[jmjames]

Just an average Joe but I didn’t know I needed special talents to stop a mad man from blowing up a bus

And If a cop got on the bus and took a shot at the BG and MISSED and killed a civilian would it make the screw up any less than a screw up then if I did it?

And just because it sounds like a bad 80’s movie doesn’t mean like it can’t happen and now because there are a lot more CCWer’s out there the probability has increased of someone taking out the BG, saving the day and getting the woman don’t you think? (Sorry I had to throw that in: cheap comic relief)

I am fairly certain that SOP for a police officer in this situation is NOT to take a shot, but to call in specialists (negotiator? SWAT? etc.). Why? Because they aren't trained for it either.

The risk isn't merely about potentially missing the perpetrator and hitting someone else, it's about the potential for bringing the situation to the worst-case scenario, a bomb detonating.

J.Ja

[secondstoryguy]

The Israelis probably have a good bomber-on-bus SOP, they've had a bunch of practice with that type of thing.

[Joseph B.]

I can’t really speak for LE as I have very little training on the LE specific to dealing with bomb threats. However, the Army’s policy has always been to isolate, evacuate, collect Intel, and start to negotiate. I think that there are way too many variables to claim what one would or would not do.

That said seeing a guy trying light a pipe bomb on a bus would more then likely result in me shooting, however, just someone standing up saying “I have a bomb and I’m going to blow you all up” would make me want to asses all the scenarios, and the current situation. More than likely look for an opportunity to evacuate, or fortify a position for protection, etc.

But the amount of good advice in here is what the FBI would call a clue, a clue that your thought of being the hero, is probably not the best option in all situations. You may be more of hero to not attempt anything and keep a cool head and assist others in being calm. YMMV

[barstoolguru]

Wanna bet? That number isn't even close to correct. Combined, DPD and FWPD have over 4500 sworn officers. And that number doesn't include all the officers from the other agencies in the DFW area.

If you can't make your point without resorting to hyperbole, perhaps you should reconsider your position.

Yes I bet: I just called the Dallas police dept and they said they average 70 cops per station and there are 7 stations =490 cops in the Dallas area.
Farmers branch has 6 cops a shift and they could not say as for the other sub citys

so now we can say that the outlying areas of Dallas has let’s say 12 average (most are less) which is on the high side for the 9 sub cities =108 cops

so now add 15 for DPS (high too) gives us a grand total of 1103 cops for over 5 million people that is an average of 1 cop per 4500 people

hows that for "hyperbole"... I did say "here in d/fw area there is 600 cops on duty at any given time for 5 million people" not the total number of cops. I am doubling the number of cops for a combo of dallas and ftw together even though ftw is smaller with less cops

edit: I under estimated the number of people in the dfw area:
The 2010 official U.S. Census real counts has the Dallas-Fort Worth Metroplex at 6,371,773 so the # ratio is higher
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dallas%E2%80%93Fort_Worth_metroplex

[JDM]

Yes I bet: I just called the Dallas police dept and they said they average 70 cops per station and there are 7 stations =490 cops in the Dallas area.
Farmers branch has 6 cops a shift and they could not say as for the other sub citys

so now we can say that the outlying areas of Dallas has let’s say 12 average (most are less) which is on the high side for the 9 sub cities =108 cops

so now add 15 for DPS (high too) gives us a grand total of 1103 cops for over 5 million people that is an average of 1 cop per 4500 people

hows that for "hyperbole"... I did say "here in d/fw area there is 600 cops on duty at any given time for 5 million people" not the total number of cops. I am doubling the number of cops for a combo of dallas and ftw together even though ftw is smaller with less cops

edit: I under estimated the number of people in the dfw area:
The 2010 official U.S. Census real counts has the Dallas-Fort Worth Metroplex at 6,371,773 so the # ratio is higher
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dallas–Fort_Worth_metroplex

Unless you called 911 or another emergency line, you could not have gotten that information 'just now'. The admin offices are only open from 0800-1700 CST. Your post is time stamped 1749 CST.

[barstoolguru]

actually I called the N Dallas station and the farmers branch police station and I told them the situation and they told me what I needed. Those are the numbers that I got and some are inflated to give the benefit of the doubt to the other poster. The city of Dallas has some 3300 officers on the pay roll but only 490 on duty as far as on patrol

All number are correct to the best of my knowledge dallas adm 214-671-4381 feel free to check

[JDM]

actually I called the N Dallas station and the farmers branch police station and I told them the situation and they told me what I needed. Those are the numbers that I got and some are inflated to give the benefit of the doubt to the other poster. The city of Dallas has some 3300 officers on the pay roll but only 490 on duty as far as on patrolFarmers Branch PD is a separate entity from DPD entirely. I just got off the phone with them, and they had no idea how many officers DPD has on duty right now. Please provide me the number you used to get the information on DPD patrol numbers. PM is fine.


All number are correct to the best of my knowledge dallas adm 214-671-4381 feel free to checkThis is a wireless phone number, that rang about 12 times, then went to a phone company message "this wireless caller is unavailable." That is not the DPD admin number.

[Joseph B.]

This is a wireless phone number, that rang about 12 times, then went to a phone company message "this wireless caller is unavailable." That is not the DPD admin number.

Called the same number, got an automated respones "this is a non-working number" with some other jibberish I could not understand sounded like numbers.

[JeffJ]

I hate to say it, but this thread would probably be best served by getting back to the original topic of "sticking guns in the face" of bomb wielding terrorists.

I agree - I'm pretty sure that if you started a thread that said "Do you think there are enough police officers to protect you all the time?" the answer would be a resounding NO. I don't know what it has to do with a discussion of how to handle a difficult problem, which is what I though we were discussing.

I'm still waiting for someone to explain how clearing kydex and shoving a pistol in the face of someone who is either mentally unstable and making unsubstantiated threats and/or is suicidal and looking to take people with him is going to solve the problem.

Somehow, a question of "how do you solve the problem" is being wrapped up into some ideal of self-relieance -- no one here is arguing that you don't need to protect yourself and take care of yourself. But, different problems require different solutions. A mugger in an alley is a compleatly different problem than a bomber on a bus.

I though the point of this type of thread was to discuss different options in order to gain a better understanding of potential tactics based on the experience and throught process of a wide range of people with different levels of experience.

Where's that "Discussion Chart" when I need it...

[bdcheung]

Where's that "Discussion Chart" when I need it...

I love that chart.
http://img.tapatalk.com/3f585222-0bc2-ac03.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[barstoolguru]

well I have been one these boards for a while and that has got to be the first time I seen a chart like that. it was not me that got off topic but had to defend what I posted.

you are on a bus and there is no outs, I man jumps up and yells I have a bomb. some of you are correct why is he anouncing it, what are his intentions?

I say shoot him and others say no because you don't know if\what about the bomb. my thinking is seperate me from the bus/bomb as fas as I can. the quick mind says if he anounced it then the bomb might be trigger detonated and he seeks something. so why not take him out fast and get off the bus?

why stick a gun in his face? the same reasoning a cop would do it; to control the situation; and then see the reaction. at that time he will make a play and show some form of intention or stand there and say he has no bomb. either way something has to be done

[SteveK]

The fact that you are legally licensed to carry a weapon doesn't automatically make you a Tier 1 operator. Descretion is the better part of valor...always.

[barstoolguru]

The fact that you are legally licensed to carry a weapon doesn't automatically make you a Tier 1 operator. Descretion is the better part of valor...always.
my 2A and the laws in my state give me the right to defend myself weither its at tier1 or teir 20 anytime I am in fear for my life!!!

I was reading I have found out that grayhound has a no gun in baggage or body policy and does a search in some terminals if not all of them so most likley a gun is not in the plans.

so now we are back to do you get involved and try to stop the bomber. some say leave it up to the law and I say the law is miles away and I am not. we learned for 9-11 that sitting back and waiting can be a death sentance anyway. too many times we have been told to be a rabbit (this is what rabbits do; sit and wait for danger to pass in hopes they are not caught) and people are not wanting to be victims because someone says we have to. here are two cases that could have turned out different if the rabbits listened to the man.


shoe bomber:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_shoe_bomb_plot

underwear bomber:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umar_Farouk_Abdulmutallab

[JeffJ]

Being aware of and assesing a complex situation before making rash action is not doing nothing.

Attempting to understand what will happen after you pull the trigger is not doing nothing.

I think this situation has a lot more gray area than - threat, boom - but maybe it doesn't

[Byron]

if a cop is on the bus what would he do; IMO he would get up and draw a weapon and make an effort to control the subject
In your opinion that is what he would do? On what do you base your opinion?

With zero training, and obviously zero familiarity with such issues, why are you assuming you know how a cop would react?

Here's the beauty of having such a diversity experience at your fingertips: you don't have to assume or give your opinion about what a cop would do in this situation. There are dozens of cops on this forum! Just ask them!

Hint: the cops who have replied to this thread so far have not said that they would have a standard response of "SHOOT SHOOT SHOOT!!!!"


And If a cop got on the bus and took a shot at the BG and MISSED and killed a civilian would it make the screw up any less than a screw up then if I did it?
If a cop got on the bus and shot an innocent, it's just as big of a screw up as if you did it. But again, where are you getting this idea that a cop is going to jump up and open fire?

You have repeatedly told us your policy. We get that. But you're rationalizing by claiming that it's the same thing a cop would do. Where do you have any authority to make such a claim? You have absolutely no idea what a cop would do in this situation, and rather than listen to the people on this forum who do have some idea, you just keep marching along.


we learned for 9-11 that sitting back and waiting can be a death sentance anyway. too many times we have been told to be a rabbit (this is what rabbits do; sit and wait for danger to pass in hopes they are not caught) and people are not wanting to be victims because someone says we have to. here are two cases that could have turned out different if the rabbits listened to the man.

shoe bomber:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_shoe_bomb_plot
underwear bomber:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umar_Farouk_Abdulmutallab

You are very skilled at offering non-sequitur "evidence" to bolster your position.

Again: there is a world of difference between seeing a man setting something on fire, and a rambling idiot who stands up and starts belligerently shouting.

The number of active duty LEO's is the least of the ways in which you have violated the discussion chart. You aren't addressing most people's points, you are making wild assertions without basis, and you refuse to drop premises that have been shown as faulty.

I'm trying to find the appropriate language to say this, but your critical-thinking troubles me. It does not help that you do not always express yourself very clearly: sometimes your statements take time to decipher.

Do you mind if I ask how old you are?

[barstoolguru]

you all are right... I changed my mind... I will just sit there and be a rabbit

[SteveK]

my 2A and the laws in my state give me the right to defend myself weither its at tier1 or teir 20 anytime I am in fear for my life!!!

I was reading I have found out that grayhound has a no gun in baggage or body policy and does a search in some terminals if not all of them so most likley a gun is not in the plans.

so now we are back to do you get involved and try to stop the bomber. some say leave it up to the law and I say the law is miles away and I am not. we learned for 9-11 that sitting back and waiting can be a death sentance anyway. too many times we have been told to be a rabbit (this is what rabbits do; sit and wait for danger to pass in hopes they are not caught) and people are not wanting to be victims because someone says we have to. here are two cases that could have turned out different if the rabbits listened to the man.


shoe bomber:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_shoe_bomb_plot

underwear bomber:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umar_Farouk_Abdulmutallab

And in the process of defending your 2nd Amemndment Rights you unintentionally cause the death of a single innocent person, much less a busload...how is that a win? Terroristic threat and hostage situations are multi-faceted, ever changing scenerios and there is never a single, comprehensive plan that will cover all situations that could arise from these types of incidents.

[bdcheung]

why stick a gun in his face? the same reasoning a cop would do it; to control the situation; and then see the reaction.

God help us if the immediate reaction of police officers is deadly force.

[barstoolguru]

And in the process of defending your 2nd Amemndment Rights you unintentionally cause the death of a single innocent person, much less a busload...how is that a win? Terroristic threat and hostage situations are multi-faceted, ever changing senerios and there is never a single, comprehensive plan that will cover all situations that could arise from these types of incidents.


if he blows the bus up because every one on the bus is a rabbit and lets him how is that a win?


God help us if the immediate reaction of police officers is deadly force

"Alpizar then approached the marshals in an aggressive manner, at which point two or three shots were fired, he said."
edit : now so could say they should have tackeled him or even tasered him because after all he did get past the screening but they chose to SHOOT him (god help us )
http://articles.cnn.com/2005-12-07/us/airplane.gunshot_1_rigoberto-alpizar-air-marshals-orlando-bound-plane?_s=PM:US

[bdcheung]

"Alpizar then approached the marshals in an aggressive manner, at which point two or three shots were fired, he said."

http://articles.cnn.com/2005-12-07/us/airplane.gunshot_1_rigoberto-alpizar-air-marshals-orlando-bound-plane?_s=PM:US

The marshals' first move was to confront him verbally, not shoot him :)

[barstoolguru]

The marshals' first move was to confront him verbally, not shoot him :)

point being they they SHOT him over a threat of a bomb !!! no proof ,just a threat. "they were in fear for their lives" just like me

"A 44-year-old U.S. citizen who claimed to have a bomb was shot and killed when air marshals opened fire on a boarding bridge at the Miami airport, several sources told CNN. No bomb was found."

what makes this different then a bus outside of the Obvious?

[jmjames]

if he blows the bus up because every one on the bus is a rabbit and lets him how is that a win?

What you are refusing to even consider, what everyone here is telling you (some of whom are trained LEOs), is that the only possible way your "plan" could make it better is if you are dealing with a very rational bomber who announces his intentions to ignite the bomb without being in a position to do so.

Replace "bomb" with "gun". If you were on a bus, and without warning, someone had a gun pointed directly at you, would you lift a finger? No, of course not, because unless you are the most amazing gunfighter in the world and up against the least agile person on the planet, there is no way you are going to clear your gun, aim, and fire quickly enough to overcome the fact that he has a gun pointed at you already.

The only time your "plan" succeeds is if you are dealing with someone who is *talking* about having a bomb but hasn't actually displayed it or a detonator. And as others have pointed out, that's a great way to make a horrific mistake.

J.Ja

[barstoolguru]

"is that the only possible way your "plan" could make it better is if you are dealing with a very rational bomber who announces his intentions to ignite the bomb without being in a position to do so."

but he did, he jumped up and said "I have a bomb"

[jmjames]

Replace "bomb" with "gun". If you were on a bus, and without warning, someone had a gun pointed directly at you, would you lift a finger? No, of course not, because unless you are the most amazing gunfighter in the world and up against the least agile person on the planet, there is no way you are going to clear your gun, aim, and fire quickly enough to overcome the fact that he has a gun pointed at you already.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QHpYsGod84

Le sigh. How exactly does this work when you are seated (like most bus riders tend to be)?

More to the point... unless you are right next to the would-be bomber when they announce their intentions, what exactly are you going to do about it? There is NOTHING that you can do to beat a guy with a button detonator unless you are on top of them to begin with. And as others have mentioned many times, if the bomb is on a dead man switch, your little hero routine just killed everyone.

There's clearly no point in discussing this further, you've got your "plan" all worked out, I just hope you never are in a place to execute on it.

J.Ja

[Tamara]

Your hypothetical bomb guy... Other than his words, do you have any other indication he has a bomb? Is he holding, oh, a garage door opener in his hand? Does one hand stay in his pocket? Is he wearing a suspiciously lumpy undershirt?

Say he really does. Say he throws open his shirt and there's a Hollywood bomb with wires and blinking lights strapped to his chest and he jumps up next to the driver and yells "Take this bus to Havana!": How far away from him are you? I mean, if he's up in the front of a Prevost or MC-12 and you're in the back seat, that's nearly a 15-yard shot. How reliably can you hit a 3x5" card quickly from the draw at that range? I know I can't, at least not with enough certainty to keep from getting blowed up. How will you get closer to get the shot off without him blowing everybody to kingdom come?

How come scenarios from CCW holders so often seem to boil down to "Can I shoot him now? How 'bout now? Now?"

[TGS]

Did the last few pages of this thread actually just happen on P-F.com?

[David Armstrong]

Makes it easier to throw him off....really do you wait and see if he does have a bomb? When you are trapped on a bus, plane or train there is no place to go. All our lives we are taught to sit and let the authorities handle it but that strategy doesn't work as we learned from 9/11. 4 terrorist controlled over 250 people because we are told to sit. that it's the right thing to do but as we know it wasn't.
Yes, but prior to 9/11 that strategy did work, and it had worked well, for dozens of incidents. Times change, but a blanket "kill them all the time" is probably as bad as "always sit there and wait." As Joseph Bell pointed out, there is a reason the professionals in this sort of stuff look at lethal force as a last choice option instead of a first choice.

[JeffJ]

but he did, he jumped up and said "I have a bomb"

and he didn't have a bomb, and everybody went home in one piece and the guy got arrested. I'm sorry that you didin't get to shoot him, you seem to want to - but your assertion is that sitting around like a rabbit gets everybody killed - and it didn't in this case. And wouldn't have in the case of the guy that got shot by the air marshalls either.


TGS: I'm sorry, I just can't disengage - I've tried a couple of times and just can't - help me

[Byron]

Did the last few pages of this thread actually just happen on P-F.com?
I've finally become convinced that those who bothered to write coherent responses have just been massively trolled.

That's certainly my hope at this point.


I'm sorry, I just can't disengage - I've tried a couple of times and just can't - help me
I know what you mean. I've been trying to disengage and failing as well. Since I can no longer trust myself, I'm just going to update my ignore list and call it a day.

[TGS]

I've finally become convinced that those who bothered to write coherent responses have just been massively trolled.

That's certainly my hope at this point.


+1.


I'm just going to update my ignore list and call it a day.

+1.

[David Armstrong]

No sermons on the rock here just an open decision on how to handle a situation. A nice blanket way to handle everything is say call a cop and let them do it but let’s face it here in d/fw area there is 600 cops on duty at any given time for 5 million people; call a cop and sometimes it takes 20+ minutes. Add that you are on an interstate in the middle of nowhere it is going to be a lot longer.

We are talking about a man with a bomb; do I want to give him time to think? He makes a threat and who knows if here is serious!
OK… if a cop is on the bus what would he do; IMO he would get up and draw a weapon and make an effort to control the subject so why wouldn’t I? my life is in jeopardy and I have a right to defend myself
As one who used to play a cop in real life, I'd sit there quietly, grab my cell phone, and get on the horn to folks who know what to do. The fact that the guy has announced instead of just pushing the button indicates that he is not wanting to blow the thing up right now. I'd like to keep him in that mood. I might try to talk with him, find out what he needs and why he thinks a bomb on a bus will help him meet those needs, etc. Sort of hope those guys that taught us at the hostage negotiators class knew what they were talking about.

[SteveK]

As one who used to play a cop in real life, I'd sit there quietly, grab my cell phone, and get on the horn to folks who know what to do. The fact that the guy has announced instead of just pushing the button indicates that he is not wanting to blow the thing up right now. I'd like to keep him in that mood. I might try to talk with him, find out what he needs and why he thinks a bomb on a bus will help him meet those needs, etc. Sort of hope those guys that taught us at the hostage negotiators class knew what they were talking about.

Amen brother, you win the kewpie doll.

[David Armstrong]

Amen brother, you win the kewpie doll.
I'd like the pretty blue one, please.:o

[JeffJ]

Jeez, David - you mean do like your sig line says? Cool.

[Jackdog]

A lot more was involved in the Miami FAM shooting then Alpizar shouting bomb and getting shot. Alpizar rushed from the rear of the aircraft, shouting he had a bomb with a backpack worn on the front of his chest. He ran off the plane onto the jet bridge. The two FAMs followed and gave verbal orders to him at gun point to lay down. Alpizar turned around on the jet bridge and advanced on the two FAMs ignoring orders to prone out. As Alpizar approached the FAMs he reached into his backpack shouting he had a bomb. When Alpizar reached into his backpack the two FAMs shot him.

Alpizar expressed intent by shouting he had a bomb.
Alpizar had opportunity by being on the jet bridge and aircraft.
Alpizar possibly had the means when he reached into his backpack while ignoring the FAMs orders to prone out.

[TCinVA]

...and given the mission and training of the FAMS their response was perfectly reasonable.

[ToddG]

With apologies for bringing this back to the fore...


my 2A and the laws in my state give me the right to defend myself weither its at tier1 or teir 20 anytime I am in fear for my life!!!

Could you scan and PM me a .pdf of your copy of the Constitution. Mine doesn't mention either the word "tier" nor "fear" in the Second Amendment. Your interpretation that any time you subjectively feel afraid it automatically equates with justification to kill is unsupported by any case law of which I am aware.


point being they they SHOT him over a threat of a bomb !!! no proof ,just a threat. "they were in fear for their lives" just like me
"A 44-year-old U.S. citizen who claimed to have a bomb was shot and killed when air marshals opened fire on a boarding bridge at the Miami airport, several sources told CNN. No bomb was found."
what makes this different then a bus outside of the Obvious?

First, the FAMs receive extensive training involving identifying threats and how to handle them.

Second, the FAMs are specifically tasked with eliminating potential national security threats on airplanes and are provided extraordinary leeway in order to accomplish that mission.

Third, your understanding of the incident (apparently based on some web news articles) is incomplete. I have the final DHS/FAM report on my computer and suffice to say that it goes into more detail than you.

The last time I read about an average Joe needing to take out a bus bomber was in a book my James Thurber...

[peterb]

Pocketa-pocketa-pocketa....

http://bnrg.cs.berkeley.edu/~randy/mitty.html

[barstoolguru]

Say it forget it.... write it regret it

[Tamara]

The last time I read about an average Joe needing to take out a bus bomber was in a book my James Thurber...
That took me a second, and then I LOL'ed. Well played, sir! :cool:

[ToddG]

That took me a second, and then I LOL'ed. Well played, sir! :cool:

I made a literary reference that Tam didn't get immediately? I think I just won the internet...

[Al T.]

I think I just won the internet...

With your left hand..... At three hundred feet. ;)

:p

[barstoolguru]

Could you scan and PM me a .pdf of your copy of the Constitution. Mine doesn't mention either the word "tier" nor "fear" in the Second Amendment. Your interpretation that any time you subjectively feel afraid it automatically equates with justification to kill is unsupported by any case law of which I am aware.


just so you know this doesn't follow the standard chart that someone posted so for the sake of this convo please stick to the subject. just for the record I don't need someone to tell me its OK to shoot just when I am wrong..

[barstoolguru]

Yo[QUOTE]ur hypothetical bomb guy... Other than his words, do you have any other indication he has a bomb? Is he holding, oh, a garage door opener in his hand? Does one hand stay in his pocket? Is he wearing a suspiciously lumpy undershirt?

when he jumps up and says " I have a bomb" he has/is threading every on on the bus


How come scenarios from CCW holders so often seem to boil down to "Can I shoot him now? How 'bout now? Now?


Because when you spend enough time on these Webb sites people are constancy telling you what you can't do even though they don't practice law and/or are in the law profession

[barstoolguru]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4vf8N6GpdM

[David Armstrong]

Because when you spend enough time on these Webb sites people are constancy telling you what you can't do even though they don't practice law and/or are in the law profession
They are constantly telling you (generic, not specific "you") that for a reason....it is good advice. And I'm not so sure it is a "can't do" nearly as much as a "it is not a good idea to do" situation. And often those who advocate "do it" don't understand either the law itself or what the ramifications are if they do it, as they don't practice law and/or are in the law profession. This scenario is a good example of that. You might be legally empowered to use deadly force, although that is rather questionable. More important, though, is that concept that says even if you can it doesn't make it a good idea. A simple threat, in and of itself, also is rarely grounds for responding with deadly force.

[ToddG]

just so you know this doesn't follow the standard chart that someone posted so for the sake of this convo please stick to the subject.

Members of the forum Staff don't need you to tell us what we can and cannot discuss in threads, but thank you.


just for the record I don't need someone to tell me its OK to shoot just when I am wrong..

I'm genuinely confused as to the distinction. Except insofar as one would presumably rather have a solid idea of when it is OK in advance so that they don't end up being wrong after.


Because when you spend enough time on these Webb sites people are constancy telling you what you can't do even though they don't practice law and/or are in the law profession

I believe quite a few folks here with LE and legal experience have responded to this thread and all seem to be of the same opinion on the subject...

[TheRoland]

Has there ever actually been a recorded use of a Dead-Man's Switch by a bomber not in a Bond movie? I had assumed such a thing had been used in Isreal or Ireland over the past century, but can find absolutely no real-world examples.

And I'm likely on a list now from Googleing that.

[bdcheung]

Has there ever actually been a recorded use of a Dead-Man's Switch by a bomber not in a Bond movie? I had assumed such a thing had been used in Isreal or Ireland over the past century, but can find absolutely no real-world examples.

And I'm likely on a list now from Googleing that.

I believe I read in "Black Banners" that AQ and other Mideast terror groups use them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[SouthNarc]

Okay now that brown-stool gonad has been banned, can we please for the sweet baby Jesus, close this nonsense thread?

I know it's not the tone around here guys, but sometimes you gotta' take the low road and have the entire community monkey stomp someone's ballsack. Just sayin'......

[Jay Cunningham]

Well, since its not posted in Romper Room, it's supposed to be serious. Proceed accordingly.

See the phraseology I employed above? See the part in bold? That is code. It is code for: "rational members have the greenlight to monkey-stomp this guy's ballsack and police our own".


Don't none of you ever accuse me of playing coy.

[David Armstrong]

Has there ever actually been a recorded use of a Dead-Man's Switch by a bomber not in a Bond movie? I had assumed such a thing had been used in Isreal or Ireland over the past century, but can find absolutely no real-world examples.

And I'm likely on a list now from Googleing that.
According to some friends I trust in Russia, dead-man switches have been used by the Chechnyan rebels.

[TCinVA]

Since I'm the guy who pulled the trigger on Mr. Guru's account, I think it's useful to make a little statement about precedent here:

Our goal for this site is to have a place where people can come and discuss ideas without having to worry about a bunch of petty nonsense getting in the way of access to good information. We've all seen endless examples of bad behavior on websites and how that interferes with decent people having a decent discussion about important things that can mean a great deal to the seeker of knowledge. With that goal in mind, we try to encourage everyone to interact with others from a default position of respect whenever possible. We'd always like to see people take the high road and keep discussions about the merits of ideas rather than getting personal.

Every now and then, however, we'll encounter someone who doesn't quite "get it" in terms of what we're about here. I'm not talking about holding a contrary opinion to what I think or to what Todd thinks or what any other member of staff or SME thinks because there's abundant evidence of disagreement on various issues available in various discussions on the site. If someone can make their point and can handle someone else explaining why they think it's flawed and everybody can do this without getting personal and stupid about it, then that's great! That's what we're after. Everyone has a bit of a different take based on the unique prism of their personal experience and history, and invariably that will lead to disagreements. We never want PF.com to become a center of groupthink, where anyone who deviates from the "script" some of the stronger personalities have adopted gets instantly savaged.

By the same token, we also have no interest in being a site where those who have nothing useful to say insist on inflicting it on others anyway.

Finding a balance between those two extremes is sometimes more difficult than it seems. On the one hand we don't want to be too eager to hammer somebody just because we may not agree with what they're saying, but on the other we don't want to let the cancer of stupid irreparably damage the site. In this instance someone started exhibiting some pretty obvious signs that they were pretty far off any sensible script early on. When it got to the point where they were starting to call a bunch of very sensible and well-behaved people out because they seemed to eschew the notion of being willing to go to lethal levels of violence over trivial nonsense, it was all the justification necessary to show them the door.

During the trajectory, those who interacted attempted to do so on the merits of ideas and did so from a default position of respect. You interacted with a silly person as if there was some merit to what he was saying and did a magnificent job of demonstrating pretty conclusively that his approach was sub-optimal...all without calling names. Your collective patience was laudable and is greatly appreciated. When it was apparent that your collective patience and good intentions were about to be repaid with a bunch of chest-thumping nonsense, we removed the offending element.

That is, generally speaking, the script we'd like to see at PF.com. I think we can highlight stupidity without engaging in it. There are lots of folks wandering around the intertubes with damnably silly ideas but, that doesn't mean that the person themselves is irredeemably silly. Feel free to attack silly ideas and combat them with rational arguments, facts, and good sense. Even if that means saying "Dude, I think it's pretty stupid to start a fight with somebody over Gatorade or to shoot a crazy guy in the face because he claims he has a bomb." When someone insists on proving that they themselves are indeed beyond hope, (like by insisting that unless you're willing to stab someone in the mouth over Gatorade that you're not a "man") we'll do our best Dalton impression and show them the door rather than let them fling bottles at the poor blind guy we've got playing guitar in a cage made of chicken wire and try to clean up the ensuing brawl.

We knew pretty early on how this story would end...but sometimes it's necessary to let someone have enough rope, you know? We don't like dumb things any more than anyone else does, but we also don't want to become a small group of people with severe personality disorders that spend our time online convincing one another that we're awesome.

[NickA]

we'll do our best Dalton impression and show them the door rather than let them fling bottles at the poor blind guy we've got playing guitar in a cage made of chicken wire and try to clean up the ensuing brawl.

So what you're saying is, "Be nice. " ;)

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk

[TCinVA]

***Cyclone kick*** Road House.

[JDM]

Excellent post TC!

[peterb]

During the trajectory, those who interacted attempted to do so on the merits of ideas and did so from a default position of respect. You interacted with a silly person as if there was some merit to what he was saying and did a magnificent job of demonstrating pretty conclusively that his approach was sub-optimal...all without calling names. Your collective patience was laudable and is greatly appreciated.

Excellent post. I, too, was impressed by the patience and thoughtfulness of the community here.

Heck, we're all ignorant about something. There's a big difference between misinformed and stupid. If I came out with some damnfool idea I'd prefer to be treated as an intelligent person with bad data.

[SteveK]

Has there ever actually been a recorded use of a Dead-Man's Switch by a bomber not in a Bond movie? I had assumed such a thing had been used in Isreal or Ireland over the past century, but can find absolutely no real-world examples.

And I'm likely on a list now from Googleing that.

September 1, 2004, Beslan School #1, North Ossetia, Russian Federation.