View Full Version : Off-duty/retired LEO in states with mag capacity limits
Joe Mac
12-12-2018, 07:14 PM
With a magazine ban initiative brewing in my own state next year, and the LEOSA amendment exempting such likely to stall in the new House, I'm hoping to hear from you fellows in states with mag limits already in place. How does the mag capacity law affect off-duty and retired LEOs in your state?
I know CA exempts off-duty and retired CA officers from their 10-rd limit, but not out-of-state officers. I'm imagining that active, off-duty officers are probably not affected anywhere (in their own states), but what about retired officers?
Our union has channels to the group crafting this initiative, and I'm thinking we might need to be proactive on the issue, lest our retired officers run afoul of a new law...
Thanks.
With a magazine ban initiative brewing in my own state next year, and the LEOSA amendment exempting such likely to stall in the new House, I'm hoping to hear from you fellows in states with mag limits already in place. How does the mag capacity law affect off-duty and retired LEOs in your state?
I know CA exempts off-duty and retired CA officers from their 10-rd limit, but not out-of-state officers. I'm imagining that active, off-duty officers are probably not affected anywhere (in their own states), but what about retired officers?
Our union has channels to the group crafting this initiative, and I'm thinking we might need to be proactive on the issue, lest our retired officers run afoul of a new law...
Thanks.
It is state specific. For example your assumption about off duty active officers is wrong in at least one state.
NJ has long prohibited their own active off duty state and local officers from carrying restricted / high capacity mags off duty. This will become more of an issue now that NJ has reduced their civilian mag limit from 15 rounds to 10.
LSP552
12-13-2018, 07:51 AM
Agree this will be State specific. If you have a hand in the process, try to encourage them to craft an exemption for both local retired and LEOSA qualified retired officers from out of state.
psalms144.1
12-13-2018, 09:01 AM
It is state specific. For example your assumption about off duty active officers is wrong in at least one state.
NJ has long prohibited their own active off duty state and local officers from carrying restricted / high capacity mags off duty. This will become more of an issue now that NJ has reduced their civilian mag limit from 15 rounds to 10.This NJ craziness is getting out of hand. I've got a bunch of agents who are assigned in NJ who are now wondering if they can carry their duty weapon off duty. I'd like to think Federal credentials trump this asininity, but I'd hate to have one of them become the test case for this...
ETA - looking on Google (not a sound legal practice, I'll admit) SEEMS to indicate that NJ passed some sort of "waiver" bill that authorizes off-duty LEOs to have "high capacity" magazines on them. Anyone stuck in the Garden State have any clarification?
blues
12-13-2018, 09:24 AM
This NJ craziness is getting out of hand. I've got a bunch of agents who are assigned in NJ who are now wondering if they can carry their duty weapon off duty. I'd like to think Federal credentials trump this asininity, but I'd hate to have one of them become the test case for this...
ETA - looking on Google (not a sound legal practice, I'll admit) SEEMS to indicate that NJ passed some sort of "waiver" bill that authorizes off-duty LEOs to have "high capacity" magazines on them. Anyone stuck in the Garden State have any clarification?
If they're FLEOA members, (and I hope they are), they will definitely be represented in the event that they run into any issues in this situation.
Last year the solution for NYC was 10 rounds or less in my G26, and Hornady Critical Defense in NJ to avoid any potential unpleasantness. It's a friggin' joke. Beginning next year I'll only have to juggle the lunacy of NYC and Maryland. (Oh joy.)
NJ needs a big federal boot up its ass.
This NJ craziness is getting out of hand. I've got a bunch of agents who are assigned in NJ who are now wondering if they can carry their duty weapon off duty. I'd like to think Federal credentials trump this asininity, but I'd hate to have one of them become the test case for this...
I can’t imagine it getting as far as a test case. Even with the most anti-gun department headed by the most ill-informed leadership, I imagine it would get sorted out fairly quickly.
psalms144.1
12-13-2018, 09:32 AM
I can’t imagine it getting as far as a test case. Even with the most anti-gun department headed by the most ill-informed leadership, I imagine it would get sorted out fairly quickly.I'd like to believe that, but, in the not too distant past I had a SGT with NJSP tell me that my Federal Agents were breaking NJ law by carrying issued hollowpoint ammunition in their issued weapons when off duty...
Can't WAIT to escape from the east coast...
I'd like to believe that, but, in the not too distant past I had a SGT with NJSP tell me that my Federal Agents were breaking NJ law by carrying issued hollowpoint ammunition in their issued weapons when off duty...
Can't WAIT to escape from the east coast...
I get that, I remember you telling us that a while ago.
There's retards everywhere, man. We shouldn't optionally restrict ourselves to comply with someone's wrong assessment of a very clear cut, one-sided situation. There's simply no gray area whatsoever with this. They can feel free to be wrong however much they want, that doesn't change law.
Put it this way: we are the Teletubby of domestic LE. We are the only federal agency of our size that doesn't report directly to the department head. Even we aren't worried about it.
This has really gotten beyond bullshit when a State can change a Federal Law at their whim. Don't forget NJ requires a Out Of State Retired Officer to get a Mother May I Letter from them to carry under LEOSA, as well as the whole Hollowpoints Issue. Way to gut a good program NJ and NY.....
blues
12-13-2018, 10:32 AM
This has really gotten beyond bullshit when a State can change a Federal Law at their whim. Don't forget NJ requires a Out Of State Retired Officer to get a Mother May I Letter from them to carry under LEOSA, as well as the whole Hollowpoints Issue. Way to gut a good program NJ and NY.....
NYC didn't gut LEOSA in that magazine capacity wasn't addressed in LEOSA. So when I discussed the NY / NYC statutes for LEOSA carry in NYC, (which are somewhat cryptic seemingly by design), the lead attorney from FEDS agreed that the prudent course was to carry 10 round magazines in NY / NYC.
(NY / NYC only allows LEOs who retired while serving in NY to carry higher than ten round mags. At least that was the case up through last summer when I researched and consulted with the attorney on the matter at length. I don't know if the rules have changed since then.)
On the other hand, that same attorney from FEDS stated that the (LEOSA) law was clear on the ammunition issue and that NJ had no leg to stand on in regard to limiting federally legal handgun ammunition.
There's also no way that I'd be asking NJ to grant me any sort of permission while I legally carry under federal law and guidelines. They can pound sand.
This NJ craziness is getting out of hand. I've got a bunch of agents who are assigned in NJ who are now wondering if they can carry their duty weapon off duty. I'd like to think Federal credentials trump this asininity, but I'd hate to have one of them become the test case for this...
ETA - looking on Google (not a sound legal practice, I'll admit) SEEMS to indicate that NJ passed some sort of "waiver" bill that authorizes off-duty LEOs to have "high capacity" magazines on them. Anyone stuck in the Garden State have any clarification?
Our agencies position has always been that federal credentials trump state law. The supremacy clause of the constitution (article IV, clause 2) applies to NJ too.
NYC didn't gut LEOSA in that magazine capacity wasn't addressed in LEOSA. So when I discussed the NY / NYC statutes for LEOSA carry in NYC, (which are somewhat cryptic seemingly by design), the lead attorney from FEDS agreed that the prudent course was to carry 10 round magazines in NY / NYC.
(NY / NYC only allows LEOs who retired while serving in NY to carry higher than ten round mags. At least that was the case up through last summer when I researched and consulted with the attorney on the matter at length. I don't know if the rules have changed since then.)
On the other hand, that same attorney from FEDS stated that the (LEOSA) law was clear on the ammunition issue and that NJ had no leg to stand on in regard to limiting federally legal handgun ammunition.
There's also no way that I'd be asking NJ to grant me any sort of permission while I legally carry under federal law and guidelines. They can pound sand.
My gutting the program comment was in general, not specific to the ammunition or magazine capacity issues.
Jason M
12-13-2018, 01:01 PM
Next week has me traveling through NJ to NYC for a non-duty related "good reason". The choice to go was not made lightly and without some serious debate given the current state of firearms law(s), and their enforcement in those two states. A well vetted G43 loaded with Hornady CD ammo will be the armament of the day given the current state of things.
LSP552
12-13-2018, 01:32 PM
I'd like to believe that, but, in the not too distant past I had a SGT with NJSP tell me that my Federal Agents were breaking NJ law by carrying issued hollowpoint ammunition in their issued weapons when off duty...
Can't WAIT to escape from the east coast...
How did you resist telling him to kiss your Federal Ass and that explain that was a good way to end up with Federal charges?
When I moved to RI last year, I purposely drove around NJ because of the legal arsenal in the back of my truck. Fuck NJ.
jnc36rcpd
12-13-2018, 04:12 PM
I talked with a Federal Air Marshal instructor at a NTOA program several years ago. He recounted the story of being stopped for traffic by an NJSP. The trooper inquired about weapons in the car and was told that there was an M-4 in the back. The next thing our FAM knew, the trooper was calling FAMS headquarters with the serial number to ensure it was an agency rifle.
If it had been me, I would have thanked the trooper and told him that he, every member of his organization, and their families could expect reciprocal treatment whenever they attempt to board or fly on a commercial aircraft.
El Cid
12-13-2018, 05:41 PM
I talked with a Federal Air Marshal instructor at a NTOA program several years ago. He recounted the story of being stopped for traffic by an NJSP. The trooper inquired about weapons in the car and was told that there was an M-4 in the back. The next thing our FAM knew, the trooper was calling FAMS headquarters with the serial number to ensure it was an agency rifle.
If it had been me, I would have thanked the trooper and told him that he, every member of his organization, and their families could expect reciprocal treatment whenever they attempt to board or fly on a commercial aircraft.
How’d the trooper get the serial number? I don’t believe I’d have been so generous.
How’d the trooper get the serial number? I don’t believe I’d have been so generous.
Possession of firearms is PC to search a car in NJ to retrieve the weapon, as the possession of firearms is preemptively illegal and only allowable under certain exceptions that you have to prove.
Hambo
12-13-2018, 06:43 PM
Possession of firearms is PC to search a car in NJ to retrieve the weapon, as the possession of firearms is preemptively illegal and only allowable under certain exceptions that you have to prove.
Do FAM trainers not have FAM creds, or do NJSP look for PC on LEOs as a general rule?
Possession of firearms is PC to search a car in NJ to retrieve the weapon, as the possession of firearms is preemptively illegal and only allowable under certain exceptions that you have to prove.
I speak from a position of extreme ignorance on this, but does presenting valid credentials as a Federal Law Enforcement Officer (potentially combined with agency verification of the creds) not stop that process cold, long before the vehicle is searched/trunk opened/serial read.
But perhaps that is my strong feelings about federal supremacy being a generally good thing showing through...
El Cid
12-13-2018, 07:06 PM
Possession of firearms is PC to search a car in NJ to retrieve the weapon, as the possession of firearms is preemptively illegal and only allowable under certain exceptions that you have to prove.
Federal LE ID covers that proof. NJ just needs a lesson in manners and the Constitution.
I speak from a position of extreme ignorance on this, but does presenting valid credentials as a Federal Law Enforcement Officer (potentially combined with agency verification of the creds) not stop that process cold, long before the vehicle is searched/trunk opened/serial read.
But perhaps that is my strong feelings about federal supremacy being a generally good thing showing through...
If I was a fed LEO, in a federal LE vehicle, with federal LE weapons then the trooper is going to have a bad week. I’m not going to give consent to do anything. He’s going to have to make it into a “thing” which will end with a civil suit against him and the NJSP as a minimum. He can write the FAM a citation for speeding or whatever traffic offense was committed. But the supremacy clause HCM mentioned protects the FAM (or any fed LEO).
I talked with a Federal Air Marshal instructor at a NTOA program several years ago. He recounted the story of being stopped for traffic by an NJSP. The trooper inquired about weapons in the car and was told that there was an M-4 in the back. The next thing our FAM knew, the trooper was calling FAMS headquarters with the serial number to ensure it was an agency rifle.
If it had been me, I would have thanked the trooper and told him that he, every member of his organization, and their families could expect reciprocal treatment whenever they attempt to board or fly on a commercial aircraft.
The FAMs have M4s?
Do FAM trainers not have FAM creds, or do NJSP look for PC on LEOs as a general rule?
Sure, FAMS have creds.
No idea on the latter. I have friends and family who are currently local cops in NJ, none of them are pricks who would go out of their way to give any out-of-state or federal LEO a hard time. I've worked with NJ State Troopers and none of them were jerks to us, but a lot of working relationships I've noticed so far depend on how you're introduced to each other.
I wouldn't class NJ State Troopers as any more ornery than State Troopers from any state tend to be. ;)
I speak from a position of extreme ignorance on this, but does presenting valid credentials as a Federal Law Enforcement Officer (potentially combined with agency verification of the creds) not stop that process cold, long before the vehicle is searched/trunk opened/serial read.
Well, you'd think, and to a reasonable person, yes.
However, your creds only cover you to possess what your agency authorizes. So, if someone wanted to push the issue you can theoretically find yourself in a situation like jnc36rcpd 's acquaintance. My only speculation is that you had two people that weren't getting along, and possible a Troop that wanted to push whatever they could that particular day, and figured, "Bullshit, why the fuck would a FAM have an issued long gun" only failing to know that the FAMS, at one point, had tactical teams (GRT: Global Response Team, tasked with aircraft recapture) equipped with HK416s ( jlw )...and he guessed wrong thinking the FAM was bluffing.
What's funny though is that's not the first adversarial interaction I've heard about between FAMS and NJSP. I've heard two other stories, one from a Newark FAM, and the other from a NJ State Trooper who couldn't figure out why a FAM was being formal and "stiff" on a traffic stop as if he was waiting for the Trooper to jack him up.
IDK......maybe there's some bad blood up there between the Newark FAMS Office and NJSP. I honestly haven't a clue, but I'd guess that's not the case because Newark FAMS invites NJSP to invite-only training sessions. The ones I worked with were all cool, and half of my office carried 18 round mags in our SIGs and talked "shop" with Troopers while ramp-side with never a threatening or disparaging comment. When agents would ask Troopers if the Mankiller 3000 black rifle they moved into the state with from elsewhere was legal, I never heard a response other than, "Nah dude, nobody is going to hassle you."
Like I said earlier, there's assholes and idiots everywhere. I'm guessing that sometimes the stars align just right for you to meet that special guy who is feeling particularly feisty that day. I'd encourage everyone to meet any NJ State Trooper with the same enthusiasm and friendly demeanor you would any other LEO.
jnc36rcpd
12-13-2018, 08:19 PM
It's been years since the conference and have no idea on the details. I was a little surprised that the FAMS had long guns when I heard the story, but it makes more sense hearing about the global response team.
The FAMs have M4s?
In addition to the responsabilities TGS mentioned, the FAMS have juristiction over several modes of transportaion including busses and trains as well as associated facilities like airports, bus and train stations etc. Plus they assist in other federal security operations for large events under the DHS umbrella.
Sure, FAMS have creds.
No idea on the latter. I have friends and family who are currently local cops in NJ, none of them are pricks who would go out of their way to give any out-of-state or federal LEO a hard time. I've worked with NJ State Troopers and none of them were jerks to us, but a lot of working relationships I've noticed so far depend on how you're introduced to each other.
I wouldn't class NJ State Troopers as any more ornery than State Troopers from any state tend to be. ;)
Well, you'd think, and to a reasonable person, yes.
However, your creds only cover you to possess what your agency authorizes. So, if someone wanted to push the issue you can theoretically find yourself in a situation like jnc36rcpd 's acquaintance. My only speculation is that you had two people that weren't getting along, and possible a Troop that wanted to push whatever they could that particular day, and figured, "Bullshit, why the fuck would a FAM have an issued long gun" only failing to know that the FAMS, at one point, had tactical teams (GRT: Global Response Team, tasked with aircraft recapture) equipped with HK416s ( jlw )...and he guessed wrong thinking the FAM was bluffing.
What's funny though is that's not the first adversarial interaction I've heard about between FAMS and NJSP. I've heard two other stories, one from a Newark FAM, and the other from a NJ State Trooper who couldn't figure out why a FAM was being formal and "stiff" on a traffic stop as if he was waiting for the Trooper to jack him up.
IDK......maybe there's some bad blood up there between the Newark FAMS Office and NJSP. I honestly haven't a clue, but I'd guess that's not the case because Newark FAMS invites NJSP to invite-only training sessions. The ones I worked with were all cool, and half of my office carried 18 round mags in our SIGs and talked "shop" with Troopers while ramp-side with never a threatening or disparaging comment. When agents would ask Troopers if the Mankiller 3000 black rifle they moved into the state with from elsewhere was legal, I never heard a response other than, "Nah dude, nobody is going to hassle you."
Like I said earlier, there's assholes and idiots everywhere. I'm guessing that sometimes the stars align just right for you to meet that special guy who is feeling particularly feisty that day. I'd encourage everyone to meet any NJ State Trooper with the same enthusiasm and friendly demeanor you would any other LEO.
It may not be Newark. The FAMS also have a training center in Atlantic City NJ which all the FAMS pass through after FLETC. It is likley that like the NJ cops / NJSP around AC are as tired of and unimpressed wih FAM creds as the GA cops around FLETC. I could understand that but IME the NJSP are generally petty pricks and have been for decades.
blues
12-13-2018, 09:34 PM
It may not be Newark. The FAMS also have a training center in Atlantic City NJ which all the FAMS pass through after FLETC. It is likley that like the NJ cops / NJSP around AC are as tired of and unimpressed wih FAM creds as the GA cops around FLETC. I could understand that but IME the NJSP are generally petty pricks and have been for decades.
I remember hearing these horror stories beginning in the early 80's (when I worked in NY) in regard to the NJSP. A friend of mine who left that outfit and went to the Secret Service explained that they were indoctrinated into the mindset of believing they were a law unto themselves, that no other federal, state or local outfit rose to their level, nor did they recognize their authority.
The stories of (literal) fistfights on the side of the road between the NJSP and other LEOs were legendary.
I remember hearing these horror stories beginning in the early 80's (when I worked in NY) in regard to the NJSP. A friend of mine who left that outfit and went to the Secret Service explained that they were indoctrinated into the mindset of believing they were a law unto themselves, that no other federal, state or local outfit rose to their level, nor did they recognize their authority.
Sounds like your buddy went to the federal doppelganger, then!
willie
12-14-2018, 07:11 AM
I worked for two sheriff's departments and learned that Texas troopers will ticket other officers for traffic violations. In some instances they will stop marked patrol cars if they think that the city or county officer is driving too fast. Perhaps their training brings about a sense of superiority. I don't fault their dedication, competence, or contribution but do disagree with the enhanced hall monitoring mentality.
blues
12-14-2018, 10:00 AM
Sounds like your buddy went to the federal doppelganger, then!
Could be. I never wanted to work for either outfit.
My roommate from my first FLETC academy is the occasional talking head on CNN for Secret Service related matters. (I'll just leave it at that.)
LSP552
12-14-2018, 10:20 AM
Possession of firearms is PC to search a car in NJ to retrieve the weapon, as the possession of firearms is preemptively illegal and only allowable under certain exceptions that you have to prove.
One more reason not to answer a question you don’t have to. Write me the ticket if you wish, but NJSP isn’t getting my consent to search or an answer from me about anything I might have in my vehicle.
LSP552
12-14-2018, 10:28 AM
I worked for two sheriff's departments and learned that Texas troopers will ticket other officers for traffic violations. In some instances they will stop marked patrol cars if they think that the city or county officer is driving too fast. Perhaps their training brings about a sense of superiority. I don't fault their dedication, competence, or contribution but do disagree with the enhanced hall monitoring mentality.
Pricks are everywhere, in every agency. Some agencies have more than others for sure. I’ve been stopped by TX DPS for speeding in both Gov and private cars and never had a bad experience.
Tom Duffy
12-14-2018, 11:33 AM
I can’t imagine it getting as far as a test case. Even with the most anti-gun department headed by the most ill-informed leadership, I imagine it would get sorted out fairly quickly.
As an aside, a couple of guys I shoot matches with tried to turn in their 15 round AR magazines to their local police departments to beat the December 10 deadline. No luck as the local departments have no process in place to take the magazines. I'm not sure anything in NJ would get resolved quickly. The new state AG seems to take a very strict view of gun laws.
No luck as the local departments have no process in place to take the magazines.
No, that's bullpucky.
They can. They're just not bothering themselves to do it.
Shit, I technically could've done it as a federal agent posted in NJ. If I was still posted up there and a fellow shooter on the range wanted to give them to me simply because they were super worried, I would've just done them the favor and taken the mags, giving them a property form in return. After the deadline, I simply would have been obligated to destroy the mags just like any other contraband we have in the evidence/property room which can't be returned to a person and isn't being requested by the USAO to remain in inventory.
KeeFus
12-14-2018, 12:48 PM
Anyone know if this screen snip is valid? I cannot find it in PDF on the internets...weak Google-fu I guess.
33247
blues
12-14-2018, 12:54 PM
^^^^It's unfortunate that there is no method available to euthanize a state gov't when it's no longer in possession of its mental faculties. They've gone over the edge and beyond the point of no return (methinks).
Newbie
12-15-2018, 12:12 PM
Looks like NJ will vote on amending the law to exempt LEOs.
https://legiscan.com/NJ/text/S2846/2018
Looks like NJ will vote on amending the law to exempt LEOs.
https://legiscan.com/NJ/text/S2846/2018
33276
Poconnor
12-15-2018, 05:50 PM
I went to pick up a prisoner in jersey once. In uniform; in a marked patrol car with a warrant in hand. At their station one of the officers made small talk. Then he asked what kind of ammo I had. I ignored him but he he kept up until I asked for his supervisor. Every department has assholes
Rangers13
12-15-2018, 06:50 PM
What all active and retired LEO’s are forgetting is HR218. It also has case law backing it as well. It says all active and retired law enforcement can carry a gun in any state as long as they follow there states qualification laws. In NJ law enforcement has to qualify twice a year. You have to have your retired or active ID and your most recent qualification on you. The US AG took out all grey areas. There were three lawsuits where 2 retired and one active law enforcement were arrested. The cases were dismissed and there were law suits that had hefty pay outs to the 3.
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Rangers13
12-15-2018, 06:52 PM
Btw I am new to the forum and from the hell hole NJ.
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willie
12-15-2018, 09:29 PM
Newark has been a murder capitol for years. Camden is on the list also. Could their crime rates have something to do with NJ's anti gun attitude, at least as far as civilians are concerned?
Rangers13
12-15-2018, 09:41 PM
Newark has been a murder capitol for years. Camden is on the list also. Could their crime rates have something to do with NJ's anti gun attitude, at least as far as civilians are concerned?
Camden is always ranked in the top 5 cities in US for murders. Newark, Paterson, Elizabeth and the rest of the shitholes in NJ. Yes if we had less gun control laws half of the problems would go a away.
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Rangers13
12-15-2018, 09:42 PM
I went to pick up a prisoner in jersey once. In uniform; in a marked patrol car with a warrant in hand. At their station one of the officers made small talk. Then he asked what kind of ammo I had. I ignored him but he he kept up until I asked for his supervisor. Every department has assholes
So true. We had them on my PD
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However, your creds only cover you to possess what your agency authorizes. So, if someone wanted to push the issue you can theoretically find yourself in a situation like jnc36rcpd 's acquaintance. My only speculation is that you had two people that weren't getting along, and possible a Troop that wanted to push whatever they could that particular day, and figured, "Bullshit, why the fuck would a FAM have an issued long gun" only failing to know that the FAMS, at one point, had tactical teams (GRT: Global Response Team, tasked with aircraft recapture) equipped with HK416s ( jlw )...and he guessed wrong thinking the FAM was bluffing.
I have this strong desire to look into what hoops I would need to jump through in order to sign out the Mk19 for a road trip to NJ.
"No officer, the ammunition is not hollow point"
Rangers13
12-16-2018, 03:07 PM
Not a good idea. The gun has to be locked in a case in the trunk and the Ammo has to be in a different and not with the gun. Also if it is fully automatic that is a problem here in NJ. I’m a retired police officer and I hate NJ and can’t wait to get out.
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Not a good idea. The gun has to be locked in a case in the trunk and the Ammo has to be in a different and not with the gun. Also if it is fully automatic that is a problem here in NJ. I’m a retired police officer and I hate NJ and can’t wait to get out.
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In general yes. For federal LEO and military personally owned guns not approved for work use yes. For retired LEOs - are you familiar with LEOSA ?
For a federal LEO with an issued / approved gun or a Military member with orders authorizing a gun NJ law means fuck all full auto or not. The supremacy clause of the U.S. constitution applies to NJ whether they like it or not.
I have this strong desire to look into what hoops I would need to jump through in order to sign out the Mk19 for a road trip to NJ.
"No officer, the ammunition is not hollow point"
Remember when Andy R. deployed in Manhattan with the M203?
Hehe.
Pepperidge Farm remembers.
Rangers13
12-16-2018, 06:02 PM
In general yes. For federal LEO and military personally owned guns not approved for work use yes. For retired LEOs - are you familiar with LEOSA ?
For a federal LEO with an issued / approved gun or a Military member with orders authorizing a gun NJ law means fuck all full auto or not. The supremacy clause of the U.S. constitution applies to NJ whether they like it or not.
I am very familiar with HR 218 which permits active and retired law enforcement to carry in any State as long as the maintain there states qualification rules. NJ is twice a year. There is also case law backing it as well.
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blues
12-16-2018, 06:41 PM
I am very familiar with HR 218 which permits active and retired law enforcement to carry in any State as long as the maintain there states qualification rules. NJ is twice a year. There is also case law backing it as well.
LEOSA guidelines only require qualification once within the most recent 12 month period. It would be interesting to find out if you met the NJ standard for qualification once yearly if that would be sufficient. (I'm not saying NJ would see it as sufficient...but there's no surprise on that score.)
Of course I don't know who can sign on off on your qual in NJ if you aren't going through your former agency.
Here in western NC the local sheriff is only too happy to have us qualify at their range sessions regardless of what LE outfit we formerly worked for.
Totem Polar
12-16-2018, 09:14 PM
Here in western NC the local sheriff is only too happy to have us qualify at their range sessions regardless of what LE outfit we formerly worked for.
See? It’s really not all that hard to play the legal hand that’s dealt, and try to get along.
Anything less is just assholic behavior, and I’m not even coming to this from an LE viewpoint.
JohnO
12-16-2018, 09:58 PM
A guy I workout with is a commercial airline pilot and a Federal Flight Deck Officer. He lives in CT and flies out of Newark, NJ. Next time I see him I will have to ask if he is effected by the NJ law.
A guy I workout with is a commercial airline pilot and a Federal Flight Deck Officer. He lives in CT and flies out of Newark, NJ. Next time I see him I will have to ask if he is effected by the NJ law.
Within the scope of his FFDO duties / issued gun/mags etc there is no effect just like any other Federal LEO or military member. What the Fed agency says within the scope of Federal law goes - it doesn’t matter what NJ or CT say.
Would you wonder if military members assigned to Ft Dix or picatinny arsenal were effected in their official capacity?
Drang
12-17-2018, 01:18 AM
See? It’s really not all that hard to play the legal hand that’s dealt, and try to get along.
Anything less is just assholic behavior, and I’m not even coming to this from an LE viewpoint.
Remember that the majority of Chief Law Enforcement officers are political appointees, and it all makes more sense.
KeeFus
12-17-2018, 08:37 AM
Remember that the majority of Chief Law Enforcement officers are political appointees, and it all makes more sense.
#truth (https://pistol-forum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=truth)
blues
12-17-2018, 09:33 AM
Remember that the majority of Chief Law Enforcement officers are political appointees, and it all makes more sense.
#truth (https://pistol-forum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=truth)
Bet you know which candidate I vote for for county sheriff.
(Hint: It's the one that welcomes me to qualify with his deputies anytime I like and replies annually to my emails expressing my sincere appreciation.)
KeeFus
12-17-2018, 10:20 AM
Bet you know which candidate I vote for for county sheriff.
(Hint: It's the one that welcomes me to qualify with his deputies anytime I like and replies annually to my emails expressing my sincere appreciation.)
You're fortunate that he will let you do that. From what I understand, T&S maintains a list of local firearms instructors that Retired LEO's can seek out to get the yearly qualifications completed through. The only problem I have is that, from what I understand, they charge for the service.
After I get through the new year I am going to research it and see if my administration will allow me to do it at our range, free of charge.
blues
12-17-2018, 11:03 AM
You're fortunate that he will let you do that. From what I understand, T&S maintains a list of local firearms instructors that Retired LEO's can seek out to get the yearly qualifications completed through. The only problem I have is that, from what I understand, they charge for the service.
After I get through the new year I am going to research it and see if my administration will allow me to do it at our range, free of charge.
First time I went, I asked the then lieutenant, (now captain), what I should pay to the sheriff's office for the kindness. He said "nothing at all", that "we're all in the same boat and we consider you part of the fraternity, retired or not". That went a long way toward demonstrating the character of the department in my view.
I always make it a point to stay behind after the quals to help sweep up the brass as a way of showing my thanks and to spend a little time just b.s.'ing with the captain and any others that are still on site. I also make sure to let them know that I'm available if they ever need my assistance for any given purpose.
Of course, I do end up paying the fee to Raleigh for the ID card they send me annually but I consider it money well spent and the folks there have always been very helpful and attentive.
CWM11B
12-17-2018, 12:28 PM
You're fortunate that he will let you do that. From what I understand, T&S maintains a list of local firearms instructors that Retired LEO's can seek out to get the yearly qualifications completed through. The only problem I have is that, from what I understand, they charge for the service.
After I get through the new year I am going to research it and see if my administration will allow me to do it at our range, free of charge.
To charge or not, and at what rate, is up to the individual instructor. You have to pay the state a damn administrative fee if your agency doesn't qualify their retirees. One of the agencies neighboring mine will do it for no charge. Mine doesn't do it at all (and there are legit reasons, though BS IMHO, and I recommended we not do it when I was there)
I have a couple of big beefs with the way NC does the whole LEOSA process, brought to us by you know who KeeFus. I do not see it changing without that key exit from the commission
KeeFus
12-17-2018, 02:18 PM
To charge or not, and at what rate, is up to the individual instructor. You have to pay the state a damn administrative fee if your agency doesn't qualify their retirees. One of the agencies neighboring mine will do it for no charge. Mine doesn't do it at all (and there are legit reasons, though BS IMHO, and I recommended we not do it when I was there)
I have a couple of big beefs with the way NC does the whole LEOSA process, brought to us by you know who KeeFus. I do not see it changing without that key exit from the commission
Yea, he needs to go...
Jason M
12-17-2018, 08:19 PM
What all active and retired LEO’s are forgetting is HR218. It also has case law backing it as well. It says all active and retired law enforcement can carry a gun in any state as long as they follow there states qualification laws. In NJ law enforcement has to qualify twice a year. You have to have your retired or active ID and your most recent qualification on you. The US AG took out all grey areas. There were three lawsuits where 2 retired and one active law enforcement were arrested. The cases were dismissed and there were law suits that had hefty pay outs to the 3.
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To which cases are you referring? I would love to have the citations if they are available to you. One of the groups that I teach is PA constables. This issue always arises in class discussions.
Rangers13
12-18-2018, 09:25 PM
To which cases are you referring? I would love to have the citations if they are available to you. One of the groups that I teach is PA constables. This issue always arises in class discussions.
I have to look for the names but one was in NC and the other in Mass. The third I am not sure might have been NC as well. It should be under the HR 218
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Rangers13
12-18-2018, 09:30 PM
You're fortunate that he will let you do that. From what I understand, T&S maintains a list of local firearms instructors that Retired LEO's can seek out to get the yearly qualifications completed through. The only problem I have is that, from what I understand, they charge for the service.
After I get through the new year I am going to research it and see if my administration will allow me to do it at our range, free of charge.
Good luck. There are ranges that do the qualifications and also private instructors but they all charge. They have to pay for there certification as well every year and the range time.
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CWM11B
12-18-2018, 10:46 PM
Good luck. There are ranges that do the qualifications and also private instructors but they all charge. They have to pay for there certification as well every year and the range time.
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Who has to pay every year as well? Instructors? Are you talking about NC or another state?
DMF13
12-19-2018, 10:20 PM
. . . and Hornady Critical Defense in NJ to avoid any potential unpleasantness. While it says nothing about magazine capacity, the LEOSA (as amended) does address ammunition:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/926B
18USC926B(e)(2) states, "As used in this section, the term “firearm” . . . includes ammunition not expressly prohibited by Federal law or subject to the provisions of the National Firearms Act . . ."
DMF13
12-19-2018, 10:25 PM
Our agencies position has always been that federal credentials trump state law. The supremacy clause of the constitution (article IV, clause 2) applies to NJ too.
Point of Order. The "supremacy clause" is contained in Article VI, not Article IV. ;)
blues
12-19-2018, 10:28 PM
While it says nothing about magazine capacity, the LEOSA (as amended) does address ammunition:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/926B
18USC926B(e)(2) states, "As used in this section, the term “firearm” . . . includes ammunition not expressly prohibited by Federal law or subject to the provisions of the National Firearms Act . . ."
Correct. But as addressed previously in this and other threads, while HP ammo is clearly legal under LEOSA, (and I was in possession of a legal policy which covered LEOSA issues), the decision to carry the Hornady ammo was simply pragmatic so as to avoid having to waste time wrangling with the NJSP and / or the NJ courts in a worst case scenario while I had only so much time available to visit family and friends.
I had actually originally intended to carry my standard 147 grain HST ammo but cooler heads here convinced me that while I'd win the war, I'd be wasting hours I wouldn't get back if push came to shove.
I'm pretty much back to my original stubborn point of view now, however. NJ be damned.
Point of Order. The "supremacy clause" is contained in Article VI, not Article IV. ;)
It can be in what ever clause it wants, because/Supremacy;-)
Jason M
12-20-2018, 07:14 AM
Good luck. There are ranges that do the qualifications and also private instructors but they all charge. They have to pay for there certification as well every year and the range time.
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PA maintains a list of certified FIs for RLEO qualifications. There is no charge to be on the list. Any costs for con-ed to maintain my FI certification is covered by my job but PA has no fees for FI certification. I can only speak for myself, but there is no fee charged to RLEOs for my time. Cops past (and present) carrying during their day to day routine is a good thing! Some offer a few bucks as a thank you, some, like Blues, help with range chores, and some will bring a sixer of the FI's favorite malt beverage as a "payment". While I recognize that there are those who see the RLEO pool as a "for profit" opportunity, many do not.
Getting back to the original topic of the this thread:
I made a day trip to NYC yesterday to play tour guide for someone who had never seen the City's sights. Drove to Jersey City took the PATH to WTC station. The HCSO and NYPD guys with whom I had contact with were stellar! With no heads up, HCSO let me park in their secure lot. On a crazy court day no less. NYPD uniforms at WTC were true professionals and gave my tourist Dept. and unit patches after a photo op. There was no talk about being armed other than the NYPD guys offering up their lock boxes to enter the 911 memorial museum if is desired. Not that I was expecting different as this wasn't an "enforcement" contact like a traffic stop, but with all the anti-gun stuff going on, I was wondering. Thanks again NCSO and NYPD!
As Blues also mentioned above, sometimes its about bending a little to avoid the potential hassle. My job issues 147gr HST. While LEOSA specifically addresses HP ammo, NJ has caused some ass pain for LEOSA covered folks over this. Hornady Critical Duty 135gr shoots the same from my G43 as the issued HST. Other than the cost of buying a few boxes to check function/POI in the G43, its no skin off my ass. Yeah, on principle its wrong but, if it works and prevents a hassle, I'm willing to do it. I've decided just leave the G43 loaded with it since it is my off-duty travel gun for trips through/to 10 round states.
PA maintains a list of certified FIs for RLEO qualifications. There is no charge to be on the list. Any costs for con-ed to maintain my FI certification is covered by my job but PA has no fees for FI certification. I can only speak for myself, but there is no fee charged to RLEOs for my time.
In Jersey it's a money maker for the ranges. They all charge just like any other class open to public.
I just looked at a popular gun range in northern NJ, and the retired police officer/LEOSA qual is $70.
Jason M
12-20-2018, 07:40 AM
In Jersey it's a money maker for the ranges. They all charge just like any other class open to public.
I just looked at a popular gun range in northern NJ, and the retired police officer/LEOSA qual is $70.
That's unfortunate for the RLEOs. There are probably a few like that in PA. The bulk of the PA FI list is made up of active-duty folks who are academy instructors. There may be a few looking to make a buck but I think they are the exception. Like everything else LE, its probably a regional cultural difference.
KeeFus
12-20-2018, 07:53 AM
This is NC’s process, copy/pasted from the link below:
*The retired officer may qualify with the agency from which he/she retired. Under this scenario, the agency is responsible for providing documentation to the retired officer to verify their completion of the annual in-service firearms training and qualification requirements. No documentation would have to be submitted to the Criminal Justice Standards Commission by the agency or the officer; (Read: free) or,
*The retired officer may go to a Commission certified law enforcement Specialized Firearms Instructor and complete the training and qualification and then apply to the Criminal Justice Standards Commission for certification under the new Retired Law Enforcement Officers Firearms Qualification Certification Program. (Read: pay the Commission some money).
https://www.ncdoj.gov/About-DOJ/Law-Enforcement-Training-and-Standards/Criminal-Justice-Education-and-Training-Standards/Training-Certification-Programs/Retired-Law-Enforcement-Officer-Firearms-Cert.aspx
My agency is set to have a boat load of retirements over the next 5 years, including Grizzly21 and me. I’m submitting a policy change that will hopefully allow us to participate in yearly qualifications so as to alleviate paying fees to Training & Standards, even though it’s a nominal one.
LtDave
12-20-2018, 10:58 AM
Who has to pay every year as well? Instructors? Are you talking about NC or another state?
Here in AZ, instructors are certified with DPS. You pay the instructor a fee (I've been quoted fees ranging from $20 to $40) to qualify. You shoot the same 50 round AZ POST course required of active officers. You then pay DPS a $20 fee to get your card. Turnaround time is pretty quick, usually less than a week.
I retired from CA. My CA CCW approved ID expires every 5 years. I have to travel back to my CA PD, be fingerprinted and fire a 10 round "qualification" which I understand is the same one used by LAPD to get a "New" ID. They don't charge anything, but my travel expenses, food and lodging to make the 2 day round trip run about $500.
Chuck Whitlock
12-20-2018, 11:51 AM
Like I said earlier, there's assholes and idiots everywhere. I'm guessing that sometimes the stars align just right for you to meet that special guy who is feeling particularly feisty that day.
... IME the NJSP are generally petty pricks and have been for decades.
Remember that the majority of Chief Law Enforcement officers are political appointees, and it all makes more sense.
I wonder if they are subject to getting jammed up by a supervisor reviewing dash cam footage if they let someone slide.
I worked for two sheriff's departments and learned that Texas troopers will ticket other officers for traffic violations. In some instances they will stop marked patrol cars if they think that the city or county officer is driving too fast. Perhaps their training brings about a sense of superiority. I don't fault their dedication, competence, or contribution but do disagree with the enhanced hall monitoring mentality.
Pricks are everywhere, in every agency. Some agencies have more than others for sure. I’ve been stopped by TX DPS for speeding in both Gov and private cars and never had a bad experience.
Thankfully, none of the troopers that work in my county are like this, AFAIK.
I wonder if they are subject to getting jammed up by a supervisor reviewing dash cam footage if they let someone slide
First point: Not arresting someone for carrying a gun after they ID themselves as a LEO isn't letting them slide.
Second point: I can almost guarantee you that NJSP does not have a practice of supervisors reviewing dash cam footage trying to jam up troopers for letting other LEOs slide during stops. I'll go so far to danger that "professional courtesy" will get you out of more trouble in NJ than anywhere else in America.
Chuck Whitlock
12-20-2018, 12:03 PM
^^^^^
My language was somewhat loose for "toeing the line on gun stuff", but fair points all around. I've never been to NY/NJ, and have no immediate plans to do so.
willie
12-20-2018, 07:52 PM
People tend to generalize based on one incident or on a small sample of experiences. If truth be known, NJ cops most likely share traits with all other cops in the nation. Although I will try not to generalize, I will speculate that the VAST majority of NJ cops will extend themselves in helping fellow officers as they also help out the guy in the street. It may be that what we read about here regarding NJ cops and certain behavior toward their colleagues is not typical.
Highway patrol troopers seem to have a most rigorous training program. One result may be that young graduates have a high degree of fervor. That's a good thing. I've never got a real speeding ticket from a Texas trooper but have received a couple of warning tickets from them. In January I will have been driving for 56 years. I brag that I've only had 4 tickets. Actually, I've received at least 10 tickets. 6 were warning tickets from troopers in Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, and Texas. You might say that the troopers that pulled me over weren't afflicted with excess fervor. ;)
I wonder if they are subject to getting jammed up by a supervisor reviewing dash cam footage if they let someone slide.
In the case of the NJSP, this behavior predates dash cam video by decades. As noted their outrageous treatment of LEOs and civilian gun owners passing through NJ in the 1970s and 80s, as documented in congressional tesitmony played a big part in the passage of the Firearms Owners Protection Act in the mid-1980s.
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