Is the Sig P6 viable anymore?

[65k10]

I got to handle a Sig P6 at a local store and I wouldn't mind getting one while they are still readily available. My problem is that at I figure it would cost about $450 to order and transfer one (and then I have to buy mags for it). I can't shake the feeling that that's quite a bit of money for a single stack 9mm of that size, especially considering a glock 19 isn't much more (or less if I go used). I've got several quality 9mm pistols, so while this would be a purchase mostly for the sake of getting a neat pistol, I'd still like it to be something somewhat practical. So my question is is the P6 still a viable pistol for defense/carry use or is it hopelessly outclassed by modern day autoloaders?

[derekb]

I might just be a sucker for single-stack 9s, but I kind of want one.

[kennjen]

but....I bet who ever gets shot with it will think that it's viable. Point being, if YOU can shoot it well, I think any gun in major caliber is viable.

IMHO. Unless if you are walking in to a war zone, you should be O.K. !

AND ....I want one too. I know there was just a blog about not wanting a "neat gun" some where. But Neat is neat..and I want it.

[JonInWA]

While their ergonomics are superb, there are a couple of weak points to keep in mind. First, the single-stack 8 round magazine is pretty much at the edge of its performance envelope, and the feed lips are susceptible to spreading over time if kept fully loaded. This creates a problem if using a magazine with spread feedlips as a reload magazine; when attempting to go from slidelock into battery, the spread feedlips affect the angle at which the top cartridge is presented, and can reslt in the round failing to chamber, as it stumbles to a halt before reaching the barrel ramp, creating a very difficult jam to resolve, as the cartridge in this position is still partially in the magazine, precluding easily ripping the magazine out.

Interestingly, the issue only seems to appear with this initial chambering effort-rounds chambered due to normal slide reciprocation as a result of actual firing are unaffected, making me suspect that slide velocity is a critical part of the equation involved.

I was a long time SIG-Sauer P225 user; it was my primary carry gun from around 1992-1997, and really liked the ergos and accuracy of the gun. Working with the senior gunsmith at SIG, and some HP White Lab information that he was privy to relating to similar magazine issues, the work-around solutions were to 1) Consistantly rotate any magazines carried at full capacity, and/or 2) carrying magazines downloaded to 6 or 7 rounds, as the HP White research indicated that the reduction in predssure against the feed lips was geometric rather than arithmatic-i.e., the reduction in force applied to the feedlips was far greater than 1/8 for each cartridge downloaded. I choose to load my P225 magazines with only 6 rounds each, carrying the gun in a 6 + 1 load-out, with two 6 round loaded magazines carried as reload magazines in a double magazine pouch.

After owning my P225 since 1992, and its benefitting from SIG-Sauer's Custom Shop ministrations giving it a superb action, I reluctantly sold it this year, as I realized that I'd only fired it once in 3 years (with another friend who had one), and that the proceeds would be more beneficially applied to a Ruger 22/45 for more frequent life-fire practice as an analog gun to my consistantly carried Glocks (and periodic 1911 forays).

Second, due to the mechanical architecture constraints of the gun, there is only so much that the action (particularly the DA action) can be tuned and lightened. Basically, you're going to have a fairly heavy DA triggerpull, although it can be smoothed (however, an exquisite SA triggerpull is eminently possible by an expert SIG-knowledgeable gunsmith).

Third, If you prefer a short trigger, I believe that they've been out of production for some time, so they may be difficult/expensive to obtain.

Fourth, despite their quirks, the OEM factory SIG magazines are the only recommended magazines for these guns, and they're often in short supply, expensive, and/or difficult to find.

Fifth, if you're getting a P6, be aware that you're likely getting a gun with a heavier triggerpull than the commercial P225, due to the heavier mainspring specified by the German Police. Additionally, the P6 sights are most likely to be black-on-black, as opposed to the von Stavenhagen bar-dot configuration, or 3-dot configuration seen on most SIG-Sauers; that may or may not be an issue.

Sixth, the blueing applied to these guns is just that: blueing (or K-Kote, a polymer coating over the blueing). The guns are simply less impervious to the environment that are guns with more modern molecularly-bonding finishes/metal treatments. The same applies to the magazines.

Lastly, even though the P225/P6 isn't a boat-anchor weight-wise, they simply are heavier (and often bulkier) than contemporary polymer guns-which can be found offering lighter weight, greater magazine capacities, more weather/environmentally impervous, and with equal if not superior ergonomics.

At one point, I owned, used, and carried all 3 of the successful guns of the 1970 German Police Trials-the SIG-Sauer P225/P6, the HK P7 PSP, and the Walther P5. My favorite, and longest owned was the P225. They were all admirable guns in their own right, but over time they did become superceeded by other more modern guns, such as Glock and subsequent HK efforts. While they're all certainly very viable as self-defense guns, there are simply more modern, more durable, and more operationally reliable guns available today, in my opinion. I'm not necessarily suggesting that you shouldn't get and use a P6/P225 (or a HK P7 or Walther P5, for that matter), just be aware of the trade-offs likely to be involved in comparison with more contemporary pistols.

Best, Jon

[Kyle Reese]

Thank you for your very informative post, Jon.

Sent from my ADR6400L

[65k10]

Thank you for that information Jon. That helps a lot.

[LSP972]

the feed lips are susceptible to spreading over time if kept fully loaded.

Now, this is something I'd never heard of regarding Sig magazines.

While I have rather little experience with the P225/P6, we used P226s, P228s, and P220s for enough years for this to have manifested itself; and we never saw it, period. The older "zipperback" seven round magazines for the P220 would crack occasionally, usually at the right rear corner... but they would continue to feed reliably for quite some time after this occurred.

And I know of three P225s that are carried/used regularly, by knowledgeable "gun guys". They have never complained of it. Not doubting you, Jon; but this is very curious.

So one wonders if this was simply an idiosyncrasy of the small single stack magazine?

.

[JV_]

Now, this is something I'd never heard of regarding Sig magazines.It goes back a long way, at least with the 225, Ayoob mentions it here (Page 67 (bottom) to 68 (top)): http://books.google.com/books?id=k9NelKI5p0IC&pg=PA67&lpg=PA67&dq=Massad+Ayoob+%22feed+lips%22&source=bl&ots=xYkqCSTa1s&sig=AfnXWBXMLdlgIkRGclTXZ78f7yM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=MrNYT7juKuX50gHYy6GzDw&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false


I have yet to see anyone who was not having serious feed reliability problems with this gun. According to one competitor who had researched this matter thoroughly with the SIG warranty repair department while dealing with his own P225 woes, the problem is traceable to the P225s magazine feed lips. Only a minute spreading of the feed lips under hard use is required to cause rounds in the mag to simply not feed. Happened to me, happened to him, happened to another hapless P225er I watched struggling with his gun at a match.

[JeffJ]

I would be reluctant to choose a carry platform that I couldn't easily get a duplicate or even triplicate (sp?) for. So if you're going to get one, plan on getting a couple more PDQ. On the other hand, if you go with a G19 or something, you can add more of them as time goes by. Or if somehting happens and you only have one, you can head down to the LGS and get another one the next day and all of your holsters, mags, etc. are ready to go.

[David Armstrong]

I've got a P6 and when they were being imported so cheaply I handed out a number of P6 for party favors for folks, and I like it about as much as I like any Sig. It is quite viable and not outclassed by other guns for the purpose of self defense. However, given the fact that spare mags are REALLY hard to find and expensive when they are found, I think I'd look elsewhere, particularly at that price.

[Byron]

I don't have any experience with this weapon whatsoever, but this statement really jumped out at me:

It is quite viable and not outclassed by other guns for the purpose of self defense.
I don't understand the logic of this statement in light of the information presented in this thread. Setting aside issues about weight, capacity, and weather-resistance (since I know how you will respond to such factors), a firearm that has a documented track record of malfunctioning magazines under normal use seems like a perfect definition of "outclassed by other guns for the purpose of self defense."

[65k10]

Yeah, this magazine issue doesn't sound like anything I want to deal with. I think I'll pass on getting one. Thanks everyone for the good info.

[JeffJ]

The AR platform has a history of malfunctioning magazines under normal use as well - the issue seems to be that readily available, relatively inexpensive magazines aren't available for spares.

[David Armstrong]

I don't have any experience with this weapon whatsoever, but this statement really jumped out at me:

I don't understand the logic of this statement in light of the information presented in this thread. Setting aside issues about weight, capacity, and weather-resistance (since I know how you will respond to such factors), a firearm that has a documented track record of malfunctioning magazines under normal use seems like a perfect definition of "outclassed by other guns for the purpose of self defense."
JeffJ hit it right. The record of malfunctions is a product of the magazine, not the gun. Sort of like the recoil spring for some compact 1911s. As long as you replace the spring regularly the gun works fine, but if you can't replace it regularly the gun becomes unreliable. The P6 works fine, and as long as you don't stress it it will probably work fine for years. Heck, it was THE go-to pistol for PDs all over Europe for quite a while. I like Jeff's AR point. We regularly see recommendations to download the AR mag, and there have been many "fixes" for the magazine, but as long as you keep good magazines in the gun it does its job well. If I knew I could go out and get a new mag anytime I wanted one I'd say the P6 was fine.

[JodyH]

I've owned all of the "Big 3" German service pistols.
P5, P6 and P7.
If I was going to pick one of them to carry it would be the Walther P5.

Of course all three are outclassed as a CCW by the lowly Glock 19, but in my experience the P5 was the best all around gun out of the three.
btw: I sold my last P225 within a few days of buying a Kahr K9, there was just no way to justify the P225 when placed side by side with the K9.

[jmjames]

The AR platform has a history of malfunctioning magazines under normal use as well - the issue seems to be that readily available, relatively inexpensive magazines aren't available for spares.

I agree that it's a good analogy... the difference is that AR magazines are readily and inexpensively available, and downloading them (as is suggested for the P6) is a minor difference in round count... 18 or 19 instead 20, whereas downloading a single stack magazine is a huge hit to the capacity. So the remedies for the AR magazine issue aren't so bad, but they aren't very good for the P6...

J.Ja

[Byron]

The AR's weak point is indeed the magazine, but they are dirt cheap, plentiful, and can be purchased in enough quantity to last 20 lifetimes. Additionally, they are constantly being improved upon. To "go to" mags of today are more robust than those of the past. Finally, just about every other 5.56 carbine I can think of is based on the AR magazine. SCAR? ACR? Honestly, what other realistic options exist on the market?

Best I can tell, none of these things are true about the P6. If every other defensive pistol on the market used P6 magazines: fine. But they don't. So in my book, that means that the P6 is outclassed. I don't doubt that the P6 "got the job done," but when there are other options that are significantly more robust, isn't that the definition of outclassed?

If another 5.56 carbine came along that was lighter than an AR, more weather-resistant, held more rounds, had a better trigger, and had magazines that could withstand far more abuse, I would say that the AR had been outclassed. It doesn't mean the AR is a bad weapon.

[98z28]

Interesting. This is the first I have heared of it as well, but I do not have much experience with the P225. I wonder if this is also true of the P239?

ETA: Just read the link JV provided. I find it interesting that the author had not heard of similar issues with the P239. Seems like the similar design would be susceptible to the same problems.

[JonInWA]

Interesting. This is the first I have heared of it as well, but I do not have much experience with the P225. I wonder if this is also true of the P239?

It's not; the magazine feed lip spread issue seems to have been limited to the P225/P6 magazines. I've never come across reports of any issues with the P239's magazines, in any of its chamberings.

Best, Jon

[GJM]

Great info. I have long had a small interest in the P6, and this sort of expert insight is invaluable.

Excuse my Sig ignorance, but is a 239 a decent pistol, and why would a person carry one over, for example, a Glock 19?

[98z28]

GJM,

From my limited experience, they are good pistols. I had one in 40S&W years ago and it was as accurate as any classic P-series Sig. I didn't have any problems out of it, but I didn't shoot much back then either. If I put 500 rounds through it in two years, I would be surprised.

They were an option at my old PD and we didn't have any problems out of the few that were issued. I bet fewer than 10 people out of 300 chose the P239 though, so that is still a small sample size.

They are roughly the size of a G19, but carry 8+1 in 9mm in a single stack magazine. They make a lot of sense for someone that is looking for a TDA gun, but needs something shorter and slimmer than a P229, for example. It would be a solid choice if you were issued a P226/P229/P228 and needed something smaller for off duty or plain clothes (concealed) work.

Despite the fact that other guns offer more rounds in a similar size, the P239 is one of those pistols that just seems to work well for a lot people. My wife has pretty small hands and there are only two of my many handguns that she has ever enjoyed shooting: the P220 and the P239. I have stupid big hands and the P239 still works very well for me. It fits a wide range of shooters and handles like a larger gun than it is.

I use it because I generally carry a P226, but my current job requires a great deal of discretion. The thin P239 disappears in a smart carry and still works just like the P226 that I spend a lot more time shooting. I also carried a G26 in a smart carry for a while when I used a G17 at work. Despite the fact that the P239 is larger than the G26, it is much less noticeable because of the slimmer grip.

[Suvorov]

GJM,

From my limited experience, they are good pistols. I had one in 40S&W years ago and it was as accurate as any classic P-series Sig. I didn't have any problems out of it, but I didn't shoot much back then either. If I put 500 rounds through it in two years, I would be surprised.

Not to take this down a P239 tangent, but how stiff is the recoil spring on the P239 (or the 225 for that matter). My Kahr fits my wife's hand perfectly but the stout recoil spring is far too stiff for her to cycle.

[JodyH]

My Kahr fits my wife's hand perfectly but the stout recoil spring is far too stiff for her to cycle.
Which Kahr?
My 9 year old boy can rack the slide on my Kahr K9, if your wife is stronger than a scrawny 3rd grader she should be able to rack the slide if she's using the correct technique.

[Suvorov]

Which Kahr?
My 9 year old boy can rack the slide on my Kahr K9, if your wife is stronger than a scrawny 3rd grader she should be able to rack the slide if she's using the correct technique.

It's a K9. I'm sure technique as well as desire has a lot to do with it.

[shootist26]

It's not; the magazine feed lip spread issue seems to have been limited to the P225/P6 magazines. I've never come across reports of any issues with the P239's magazines, in any of its chamberings.

Best, Jon

Are P225/P6 magazines compatible with a P239?

I am a new carrier of a 9mm P239. It is a good choice for those of us stuck behind enemy lines. Magazines, unfortunately, are expensive. Not necessarily hard to find, just expensive. I paid $30-40 each for my stash of 6.

I see P239 mags on ebay for $50-150, WTF...

[GJM]

Are P225/P6 magazines compatible with a P239?

no

[JonInWA]

I've owned all of the "Big 3" German service pistols.
P5, P6 and P7.
If I was going to pick one of them to carry it would be the Walther P5.

Of course all three are outclassed as a CCW by the lowly Glock 19, but in my experience the P5 was the best all around gun out of the three.
btw: I sold my last P225 within a few days of buying a Kahr K9, there was just no way to justify the P225 when placed side by side with the K9.

I've had 2-3 P5s, and a P5C, Jody. The P5 was a great pistol-IF you were willing to dedicate the necessary hammer time to get totally grooved in with the trigger pull, as it was slightly on the heavy side for the DA pull, and had a distinct "hitch" as the final portion of the triggerpull mechanically lifted the firing pin into position to be struck by the falling hammer.

The German plastic OEM grips were a bit fragile, and susceptible to cracking/marring/softening when exposed to common US cleaning solvents-Earl Sheehan of Earl's Repair specifically recommended Kleenbore's Formula 3 as one of the few US ones that were viable without causing harm to the grips.

Walther's rifling also extends a bit further into the chamber more so than pretty much any other contemporary combat pistol that I can recall, making chambering some cartridges dicey, if not impossible; Cor-Bon's 115gr hollowpoints come to mind.

I automatically simply replaced my P5 grips with a set of Hogue rubber Cobblestone grips-apparently Hogue got the Dutch Police contract for P5 grips-they may even still be a catalog/available item-otherwise there are the beautiful, ergonomic Nill grips, but they're very pricey.

I never really liked the P5C. It's balance never really felt "right," I thought it's aesthetics were ugly to the point of homely (yeah, not a criteria for an efficacious gun, but at Walther prices it was a bit off-putting), and, most critically, the hammer strut was embedded in a plastic fillet piece, which, as Walther's plastic of the day tended to do, over time crystallized and cracked, loosening the hammer strut from its mooring, rendering the gun TOTALLY unfireable. This was a TOTAL deal-breaker for me-I had Earl's repair it, and promptly sold it. I've anecdotally heard that the Brits for their contract P5Cs had the polymer fillet piece replaced with a metal one to preclude what happened to mine, but I've never been able to physically verify that.

This problem is unique to the P5C-the P5's hammer strut is anchored to the frame by a hanger protrusion as I recall.

Mechanically the P5 is an engineering marvel-beautifully manufactured and fitted. Unfortunately slight dimensional differences and a different heel latching system preclude magazine interchangeability with P.38/P1/P4 magazines, which can usually be found at a lower cost. I believe that some enterprising souls did experiment with cutting or punching a rectangular latch receptacle in the spines of such earlier model magazines, but the practice never became wide-spread, and as I recall such modded magazines protruded a bit from the magwell, and looked a bit odd.

A beautiful gun, and very viable within its limitations, but pretty much totally rendered obsolescent by the Glock G19, among others...

Best, Jon

[justintime]

when I first started carrying aiwb I used the p6 as I preferred having the hammer. It was thin, accurate, and reliable. I still love the p6 but ultimately I felt better carrying more rounds.

[Clyde from Carolina]

I've had 2-3 P5s, and a P5C, Jody. The P5 was a great pistol-IF you were willing to dedicate the necessary hammer time to get totally grooved in with the trigger pull, as it was slightly on the heavy side for the DA pull, and had a distinct "hitch" as the final portion of the triggerpull mechanically lifted the firing pin into position to be struck by the falling hammer.

The German plastic OEM grips were a bit fragile, and susceptible to cracking/marring/softening when exposed to common US cleaning solvents-Earl Sheehan of Earl's Repair specifically recommended Kleenbore's Formula 3 as one of the few US ones that were viable without causing harm to the grips.

Walther's rifling also extends a bit further into the chamber more so than pretty much any other contemporary combat pistol that I can recall, making chambering some cartridges dicey, if not impossible; Cor-Bon's 115gr hollowpoints come to mind.

I automatically simply replaced my P5 grips with a set of Hogue rubber Cobblestone grips-apparently Hogue got the Dutch Police contract for P5 grips-they may even still be a catalog/available item-otherwise there are the beautiful, ergonomic Nill grips, but they're very pricey.

I never really liked the P5C. It's balance never really felt "right," I thought it's aesthetics were ugly to the point of homely (yeah, not a criteria for an efficacious gun, but at Walther prices it was a bit off-putting), and, most critically, the hammer strut was embedded in a plastic fillet piece, which, as Walther's plastic of the day tended to do, over time crystallized and cracked, loosening the hammer strut from its mooring, rendering the gun TOTALLY unfireable. This was a TOTAL deal-breaker for me-I had Earl's repair it, and promptly sold it. I've anecdotally heard that the Brits for their contract P5Cs had the polymer fillet piece replaced with a metal one to preclude what happened to mine, but I've never been able to physically verify that.

This problem is unique to the P5C-the P5's hammer strut is anchored to the frame by a hanger protrusion as I recall.

Mechanically the P5 is an engineering marvel-beautifully manufactured and fitted. Unfortunately slight dimensional differences and a different heel latching system preclude magazine interchangeability with P.38/P1/P4 magazines, which can usually be found at a lower cost. I believe that some enterprising souls did experiment with cutting or punching a rectangular latch receptacle in the spines of such earlier model magazines, but the practice never became wide-spread, and as I recall such modded magazines protruded a bit from the magwell, and looked a bit odd.

A beautiful gun, and very viable within its limitations, but pretty much totally rendered obsolescent by the Glock G19, among others...

Best, Jon

Great info. as usual, Jon. P5C always looked weird to me, tho' I didn't know that about the hammer strut plastic piece thing. Very interesting.

[David Armstrong]

Agreed. The P5 is a beautiful gun and a mechanical marvel, and if I went back to a single stack 9mm I'd have a hard time deciding between int and my S&W 39. I carry mine as an oddball barbeque gun mostly, since it makes for great show and tell. As a fighting gun it has been outclassed by the Glocks, like so many other guns, but it will still do the job.

[Byron]

[The P6] is quite viable and not outclassed by other guns for the purpose of self defense.

As a fighting gun [the P5] has been outclassed by the Glocks

Huh. That's a head scratcher.

I have to ask: what exactly is it about the 8+1 P6 that prevents it from being outclassed by any other gun, while the 8+1 P5 is apparently outclassed?

[David Armstrong]

Context is everything. The P6 does just fine for SD. Fairly normal controls, adequate capacity, no big deal to reload, etc. The P5 on the other hand has some weird controls and is an A#1 bitchkitty to swap mags. I wouldn't (and don't) mind the P5 for SD, but as a primary fighting gun it has some issues. Capacity is not an issue IMO.

[FotoTomas]

Great info. I have long had a small interest in the P6, and this sort of expert insight is invaluable.

Excuse my Sig ignorance, but is a 239 a decent pistol, and why would a person carry one over, for example, a Glock 19?

In some cases it is a matter of availability. My agency issues either a SIG 229DAK or a Beretta Centurion M92D for uniformed duty carry. Same guns are available for the plainclothes guys BUT if you want a smaller or thinner pistol for plainclothes the only authorized issue is a SIG 239 DAK. Many of us would prefer a Glock 19 for duty in uniform or plainclothes but that is NOT an option allowed us.

[FotoTomas]

Huh. That's a head scratcher.

I have to ask: what exactly is it about the 8+1 P6 that prevents it from being outclassed by any other gun, while the 8+1 P5 is apparently outclassed?

I wanted to add that there is a wide diversity of available handguns for personal self defense. Many with capacities less than 8+1. Many people have differring opinions as to their respective needs. If I were in an area where I had to use what was available then a P225/P6 or a P5 would be welcome additions to my kit. I might "prefer" something else but I will use what I can get. I am visiting my parents in an upscale retirement community. I am blessed with several options for my circumstances and in this closed enviroment I am quite happy with my PM9 as my primary pocket rocket and a Gerber knife in the other pocket. Either the P5 or P6 would be a better option but not as discrete.

Circumstance can dictate the viability of a pistol and whether or not it is "outclassed".

[Byron]

Circumstance can dictate the viability of a pistol and whether or not it is "outclassed".
I absolutely get that, and have no problem with the idea.

Limited options. Availability. Run what you brung. Anything better than nothing. Something on you is better than something at home. Got all that.

I was puzzled because the P5 and P6 are very similar in many ways (capacity is identical, quantitative measurements like weight and size are very comparable). So to see one defended as not being outclassed by modern pistols, while the other one is indeed declared outclassed, is what got me scratching my head.

David's justification, that mag swaps are faster with one platform than the other, seems a bit... well... like grasping for straws. If Gun X can be reloaded faster than Gun Y, but they both still hold half as many rounds as Gun Z which is the same size, it seems odd to make reload speed the final factor in whether X and Y are outclassed by Z. How can it be said that "capacity is not an issue," but reload speed apparently is an issue? Double the capacity means half as many mag changes. There's no faster reload than the reload you don't have to perform. Soooo.... if it doesn't matter how fast we run out of ammo, why does it matter how fast we can refill said ammo?

Again, I understand compromising when compromises need to be made. But that has nothing to do with whether something is stuck with a blanket label of "outclassed."

It doesn't matter. I thought I could get a straight answer on a logical inconsistency, but I won't. So it's all good and I'll stop cluttering up this thread because I've been here long enough to know where this will be headed.

My apologies for the derail.

[David Armstrong]

David's justification, that mag swaps are faster with one platform than the other, seems a bit... well... like grasping for straws.
Please note that was only one part of David's justification, not the whole package. Relaod speed is not the final factor, nor is it the most important factor. It is one factor out of many listed, so I'm not sure why you would grab that one and focus on it to the exclusion of others. The difference for me between a fighting gun and a self defense gun is a significant issue, as is the controls issue. You'll note that I said for me the Glocks have pretty much defined the fighting handgun. I don't, however, consider them to be the ultimate SD gun.

I thought I could get a straight answer on a logical inconsistency, but I won't.
You got a straight answer. The problem is that you are seeing a logical inconsistency where there is none. I think the inconsistency may be in equating needs between a SD firearm and a fighting firearm. Maybe envision the difference between a 1911 and a LW Commander. One is a great SD gun, not so great for fighting purposes, even though they are the same capacity. I would consider them both outclassed by the Glock as a fighting handgun.

[FotoTomas]

As I see it the key is David's comment it being a "primary fighting gun." I tend to believe either the P5 or P6 would be an excellent choice for a personal defense gun but admit the P5's controls would require a little more work to master. As a primary fighting gun the magazine swap could be considered a defect since here in the US the original Luger style magazine release is the defacto standard for fighting guns. I agree that 8+1 does not worry me for a SD gun but IF I needed to reload then the P6 would be a better choice and of the two I will take a P6. Then again lately a P229 has been my primary fighting pistol for work and a lot of off duty time and it is a better choice in my mind.

Of course I am the guy who is quite happy with my S&W model 19 Combat Magnum on my hip when off duty. Old fart disease I guess. :)

[JonInWA]

I found both to be excellent guns, but some may find it of cursory interest that out of the P225/P6 and P5, I chose to divest myself of my P5 "collection" first-despite the inherent magazine issues/work-arounds inherent to the P225. Obviously, both guns passed the rigorous German Police trials of the 1970s (along with the HK P7 PSP, which I've also owned), but I personally preferred the ergos and balance of the P225 over that of the P5.

While the P5 is certainly beautifully engineered (and certainly has better magazines), you could make the argument that the P225 is an equal, if not more effective design/value for most users. While I personally never found the butt-heel magazine release to be an insurmountable obstacle, even with tactical reloads (being a relatively thin single-stack magazine certainly expedites things), the P5's triggerpull and mechanical slide-hold-open lever (a sub-lever of the de-cocker ever) to be a bit of an acquired taste. In all honesty, my personal P225 had benefitted from the ministrations of SIG-Sauers senior gunsmith, which gave it a beautiful DA and SA triggerpull.

It's analogous to having a Ferrari Berlinetta Lusso and a Toyota 4Runner-One certainly is admired and cherished, but the other is the one that's actually reliable, and used.....OK, so while THAT comparison may be a bit farfetched, perhaps a more on-point one is the decision that a Glock owner faces when considering getting an HK P30L LEM-is the juice going to be worth the squeeze?....

To more directly answer the original poster's query, both are certainly viable defensive fighting pistols; how desirable/how much of a value they are, especially when compared to later, more current offerings is up to the eye (and wallet) of the beholder.

Best, Jon

[David Armstrong]

As I see it the key is David's comment it being a "primary fighting gun." I tend to believe either the P5 or P6 would be an excellent choice for a personal defense gun but admit the P5's controls would require a little more work to master. As a primary fighting gun the magazine swap could be considered a defect since here in the US the original Luger style magazine release is the defacto standard for fighting guns. I agree that 8+1 does not worry me for a SD gun but IF I needed to reload then the P6 would be a better choice and of the two I will take a P6. Then again lately a P229 has been my primary fighting pistol for work and a lot of off duty time and it is a better choice in my mind.

Of course I am the guy who is quite happy with my S&W model 19 Combat Magnum on my hip when off duty. Old fart disease I guess. :)
That pretty much covers it...except I preferred my Mdl 65 to the Mdl 19!:cool:

[Clyde from Carolina]

That pretty much covers it...except I preferred my Mdl 65 to the Mdl 19!:cool:

Heresy!

Actually, I'd love to have a good model 65 and would probably prefer it these days to a 66...but my mentor and best bud was a 66 guy so that is what I had to have. And still have. (Funny enough though, come to think of it, HE has a nice 3" Model 65!!) ;)

[starlifter]

If one wants a current production gun, the sig P239 with a +1 magazine is basically the same as the P6.

I own 2 P6s and 1 P239. Compared side by side, the P6 hammer to muzzle end is about 1/4" longer. I have found no problem with parts availability. topgunsupply.com is a good resource. Every part (except slide and frame)on a P6 is available or common to some other sig. If you have the time and desire to figure it all out, the puzzle isn't that difficult. Recent upgrades include: SRT (short reset trigger), Trijicon sights, Lasermax guide rod laser. These upgrades were all 'drop in'. The Lasermax can be installed wrong and damaged. Don't ask me how I know this ;-)

FYI I found that replacing the P226 mainspring, hammer strut, and main spring base with sig factory pre-80s parts produces a much better double action trigger pull without sacrificing reliability. Key Words: Factory Parts.

[Rich]

I would rather have a MK25/P226 !
If I had to have a single stack I would go P239

[stand watie]

New Friends,

My SD handgun for the last decade has been a "plain vanilla" German police surplus Sig P6 (made in 4/1982), which is unmodified except for a trigger job by one of our unit armorers. - I paid 320.oo for the pistol including a LH German KRIPO holster, 2 magazines & a factory/plastic case.
(My other CCW holster is an "ancient" OTB holster by Tex Shoemaker.)

I travel extensively since I retired from the Army. My CCW license is accepted in 34 states & the 8+1 capacity is NOT a problem in any of those states, including two that have a magazine limit.

Based on 3 decades of county/state/federal LE, I believe that the "problems with Sig magazines" are mostly "between the ears" of the "complainers", as I've NEVER had (or even seen) such a problem with ANY factory magazine. My P6 "feeds" any sort of 9mm round that I've tried from 115grain FMJ to 147grain HP, without a hitch
Factory magazines are quite common at south TX gunshows for 20-30.oo each.
(Otoh, the PRO-MAG magazines are JUNK, imVho.)

ImVho, the Sig P225/P6 is "homely as a mud fence" but PERFECTLY suitable for any likely self-defense task.

Note: 3 weeks ago, I attended the TX CCH course in suburban San Antonio. - Our qualification class had 22 shooters, who fired a large number of SA pistols in calibers from .32ACP to .45ACP, including some VERY EXPENSIVE "customized" handguns.
Of the total of 26 handguns fired, I had ONE of TWO handguns that had NO problems "on the firing line".
(The other "fault-FREE pistol" was a factory-stock, 1960s vintage, Colt's Model 1911.)

just my opinion, sw

[JM Campbell]

Would that have been at LoneStar sw?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk

[JodyH]

VERY EXPENSIVE "customized" handguns.
Of the total of 26 handguns fired, I had ONE of TWO handguns that had NO problems "on the firing line".
I know the problem...

I've taught CCW classes since 2003, the firing line is made up of three types of handguns:
70% are cheap pieces of crap, ala Taurus, Rossi, Citadel, RIA etc.
20% are "customized" pieces of crap. Even if they started out as nice pistols, Bubba and his Dremel have screwed them up beyond salvaging.
10% are factory stock guns from solid manufacturers... and those are the only guns that will work without problems.
We won't even get into what ammo they're trying to shoot.

Don't read too much into what guns work and what ones don't in a CCW class.
Too many lowest common denominators shooting crappy guns and crappy ammo to take away any useful information.

[JonInWA]

New Friends,

My SD handgun for the last decade has been a "plain vanilla" German police surplus Sig P6 (made in 4/1982), which is unmodified except for a trigger job by one of our unit armorers. - I paid 320.oo for the pistol including a LH German KRIPO holster, 2 magazines & a factory/plastic case.
(My other CCW holster is an "ancient" OTB holster by Tex Shoemaker.)

I travel extensively since I retired from the Army. My CCW license is accepted in 34 states & the 8+1 capacity is NOT a problem in any of those states, including two that have a magazine limit.

Based on 3 decades of county/state/federal LE, I believe that the "problems with Sig magazines" are mostly "between the ears" of the "complainers", as I've NEVER had (or even seen) such a problem with ANY factory magazine. My P6 "feeds" any sort of 9mm round that I've tried from 115grain FMJ to 147grain HP, without a hitch
Factory magazines are quite common at south TX gunshows for 20-30.oo each.
(Otoh, the PRO-MAG magazines are JUNK, imVho.)

ImVho, the Sig P225/P6 is "homely as a mud fence" but PERFECTLY suitable for any likely self-defense task.

Note: 3 weeks ago, I attended the TX CCH course in suburban San Antonio. - Our qualification class had 22 shooters, who fired a large number of SA pistols in calibers from .32ACP to .45ACP, including some VERY EXPENSIVE "customized" handguns.
Of the total of 26 handguns fired, I had ONE of TWO handguns that had NO problems "on the firing line".
(The other "fault-FREE pistol" was a factory-stock, 1960s vintage, Colt's Model 1911.)

just my opinion, sw

I'm glad that you apparently have had problem-free experiences with your P6/P225. However, I can assure you that the magazine issues I experienced with mine were very real, repetitive, and endemic-and were verified by a very senior gunsmith at SIG-Sauer, and have been both experienced and discussed in print and on the internet by some other very qualified and experienced SIG-Sauer P225 users. The problem is far more than "between the ears" of "complainers."

And yes, all of my magazines over the years were brand-new, SIG-Sauer magazines. You might want to re-read the first couple of pages of this thread for a more detailed discussion.

Due to this issue alone, I absolutely would suggest a P239 over a P225/P6 for a carry/defensive weapon (despite the exquisite ergos and accuracy of the P225).

Best, Jon

[stand watie]

NOPE. - It was at a private club's range & (absent their agreement) I won't further identify it.

yours, satx

[stand watie]

JodyH,

Fwiw, ONE of the "pistols with problems" was a VERY, VERY expensive KIMBER that had been "smithed" by a "nationally-known gunsmith". Another was a Colt's Gold Cup that "just was plain too tightly fitted".

ImVho, carrying a PPC or "dedicated target pistol" is close to SUICIDE, when used for SELF-defense and/or a "fighting handgun". = What works GREAT "under controlled conditions" may NOT work at all in a real fire-fight, when exposed to rain, snow, below zero conditions, mud, etc,etc,etc..
(I've been in a few, while a CIDC SAIC.)

On the days that I'm "in the field" and the weather is NASTY/frozen/muddy (OR anytime in the jungle), I want NOTHING except a "plain vanilla" Model 1911A1 with GOOD magazines OR my Model 1917 S&W (WW1-era) Revolver with government hardball.
(In this most imperfect of Worlds, the one thing that you can count on is that a Model 1911A! or Model1917 with 230grain government hardball will ALWAYS shoot.)

just my opinion, satx

[Casual Friday]

I got some popcorn heating up if anyone wants some.

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

[stand watie]

JonInWa,

I carefully read & digested the NONSENSE that was on the first pages, chuckling all the time.

Fyi, I was "seconded to" the Deutsch KRIPO for two years (as an American exchange officer from the USAMPC) and fired many hundreds of rounds with a P6 (I always carried "BRD issue" firearms/ammo in those long ado days/DAZE.), without a problem.
I was also privileged to "liaison with" the DSGS & The Bundes Forstdienst die Polizei, all of whom also issued the Walther P5, the Sig-Sauer P6 & the H&K P7M8.

I have seen several cases of FTF that were caused by BAD magazines, BAD ammunition, BAD maintenance and/or (most often) POOR "operator headspace". BUT none that was caused by a Sig-Sauer/H&K/Walther "design flaw".

Bluntly, I believe that all that "stuff & feathers" is BRAVO SIERRA.
(As my grandfather used to say, "It's a poor worker, who blames his failures on his tools.")

yours, sw

[stand watie]

Casual Friday,

make mine with butter & garlic salt
(CHUCKLE)

yours, sw

[JodyH]

just my opinion, satx
yup...

[stand watie]

JodyH,

EXACTLY nothing more or less than my PERSONAL opinion, based on many thousands of rounds fired when I was on the faculty (Weapons Committee) at USAMPS & to a lesser extent as a range officer for nearly 3 decades.
(USAMPS was then at Ft Gordon & Ft McClellan.)

Being a "committee guy" and/or assigned to Range Control was GREAT, as we could shoot all the 12 gauge rounds, 7.62x51, M16 NATO, .45ACP & government 9mm FMJ that we cared to fire.
(200-300 rounds per man was TYPICAL, 6 days a week.)

yours, sw

[Kyle Reese]

This is an outstanding thread, and I'd like to think that we can all share our collective experiences with the P-6 / P225 in a manner befitting of the enthusiasts & professionals that we are.

[stand watie]

To ALL,

I also add to this discussion: IF "I was running over with money", I would buy a H&K P7M8 for CCW.
(The US Park Police spent a GREAT deal of time/money while intensively testing various firearms for their "officers with smaller hands" under adverse conditions & chose the H&K over every available pistol. - Obviously "availability of funds" was not an "issue" with the USPP, given that their officer's issued leather gear, i.e., Sam Browne belt/fancy buckle/holsters/handcuff cases, magazine pouches, etc. cost MORE than 500.oo. Further, those "downright PURTY" & shiny black leather jackets that some USPP officers were issued reportedly cost well over 600.oo each.)

Unfortunately, as my beloved is now "a lady on wheels" & my "fun money" is rather limited, I doubt that a P7M8 is "in my future".
(Physical and Occupational therapy & therapeutic massage, five days a week, is $$$$$$$$$.)

yours, sw

[Casual Friday]

(deleted by ToddG ... talk about topics, not one another)

[Dagga Boy]

Pretty interesting thread (I think this came up when I was on an internet break). I carried a P-225 a lot. Sold hundreds of them when working at a shop in college, and when I owned my own. My agency had a few we issued to a few smaller females who could not run the P-220 duty guns. I've never had any magazine issues, so this will be something to look at. I also know that this was the most issued police gun in Germany for a lot of years. My question to those who have looked into this is if there was a change in magazine supplier of contractor? I will not allow a non-W.German older SIG into my safe, so all my stuff is older late 80's to very early 90's stuff, and I have not bought a P-225 magazine since that era. I am wondering if it wasn't a later metallurgy or hardeness issue, or if this has been a little known issue since the early 80's.
I am a unadulterated fanboy of both the P7's and P-225's. I am very aware of some unique magazine issues between the P7M8's specifically for running 147gr. ammo that uses magazine feed lip changes to "hide" the issue with 147 gr. function. I would like to see if someone can provide some info without it getting personal. I know a whole bunch of very squared away pro's who carry/carried P-225's extensively and I still love the things.

[Casual Friday]

First off nyeti, my heart broke a tiny bit when you went all "won't allow any non-W.German SIG into my safe". You need to try a Sig Pro.

Second, and this is only third hand info given to me by a 225 owner a couple years back. Some of the mags he had seemed to be made with a noticeably thinner metal than others, they looked identical in markings and what not but they were thinner. His problems were related to the feed lips becoming deformed (for lack of a better more tacticaler word) on the thinner mags. I don't know if that is the same issues that others had or not. I was new to SIG then and opted to not buy the 225 I was looking at based on his experience. .

[stand watie]

nyeti; Casual Friday,

Since I found this thread a couple of days ago, I've wondered IF the "reported" problems with the P6/P225 are a "similar situation" to the "lowest bid" contract magazines that plagued the M9 (Berretta) military auto-pistol some time ago.
(All 3 of my P6 magazines are Sig-Sauer made & have a marking that indicates that they were once West German Forest Service Police issue, i.e., what we USA folks would call "sworn" game federal wardens or US Forest Service investigators.)

To nyeti: Don't you wish that we could still buy the P6 for what they sold for when they were first sold as BRD surplus?
(Though I was OCONUS in those years, I've heard that some people paid as little as 125.oo for a P6 in NRA GOOD or better & "almost new condition" for <200.oo.)

Fwiw, I had an old AMERICAL DIV "brother-in-arms" that says that he paid less than 300.oo for a "like new" P7M8 from a CO peace officer (who was "in a bind" from an ugly divorce), including a BW Sam Brown belt with matching duty holster, mag case, cuffs/case & a flashlight holder. ====> Talk about "lucking out"!!!

yours, satx

[stand watie]

JodyH,

Btw, speaking of "operator headspace", one of the "self-described experts" (He asked a bunch of "cutesy questions" of the instructor, during the "classroom portion".) in our "CCH-class" had a "failure to feed" with a SA handgun.
(Turns out that he was trying to insert the mag "basackwards".)

yours, satx

[JonInWA]

Pretty interesting thread (I think this came up when I was on an internet break). I carried a P-225 a lot. Sold hundreds of them when working at a shop in college, and when I owned my own. My agency had a few we issued to a few smaller females who could not run the P-220 duty guns. I've never had any magazine issues, so this will be something to look at. I also know that this was the most issued police gun in Germany for a lot of years. My question to those who have looked into this is if there was a change in magazine supplier of contractor? I will not allow a non-W.German older SIG into my safe, so all my stuff is older late 80's to very early 90's stuff, and I have not bought a P-225 magazine since that era. I am wondering if it wasn't a later metallurgy or hardeness issue, or if this has been a little known issue since the early 80's.
I am a unadulterated fanboy of both the P7's and P-225's. I am very aware of some unique magazine issues between the P7M8's specifically for running 147gr. ammo that uses magazine feed lip changes to "hide" the issue with 147 gr. function. I would like to see if someone can provide some info without it getting personal. I know a whole bunch of very squared away pro's who carry/carried P-225's extensively and I still love the things.

Nyeti, during the extended period that I had mine (1992-2012), the repeated magazine issues befuddled me too. I specifically asked the gunsmith at SIG that (given the extensive deployment of the P225/P6 in multiple German landers and agencies, had the magazine issue come up {of, if not, given my experiences and SIG's repeated detailed examinations of my P225 clearing the gun of fault/deficiencies, why had they not come up})-I never received a totally clear-cut answer.

I believe that P225/P6 magazines had at least 2 different manufacturing phases, as at one point they were roll-marked with the SIG-Sauer logo, at another they were plain and unmarked. I don't recall any other obvious material or dimensional differentiations between the two, other than the markings (or lack thereof).

My thoughts on why the issues didn't receive greater highlighting might have to do with several possibilities:

1. Perhaps my specific expereinces (and those of others similarly reporting) were a relative unique abberation;

2. Perhaps the German LEOs used range-provided magazines for practice/familiarization/qualification, and in that these magazines were presumably stored unloaded, and, when loaded to capacity were kept that way for relatively short periods of time, precluding the pressure accumulations from a consistantly loaded magazine cartridges exerting pressure against the feed lips from developing;

3. Perhaps the German agencies had a magazine rotation policy in effect, where magazines were rotated and "rested" (stored empty for a period), precluding the pressure build-up on the feed lips from sufficiently accumulating over time.

Trust me-my P225 expereince was very frustrating-I really liked the gun, shot well with it, and it carried /concealed well-but due to the magazine issue, I simply couldn't trust it on a reload magazine, unless the magazines were downloaded to 6-7 rounds to preclude the feed lip spread from developing with loaded magazines over time. Ultimately, this became unacceptable to me...

Best, Jon

[stand watie]

JonInWa,

When I was stationed in BRD, the various agencies that issued the P5, P6, P7 and other handguns routinely had skilled LE agency armorers at the ranges to inspect & service all "issue weapons" at "periodic qualification" time. - Any handguns that were "questionable" as to condition were "withdrawn from service" & returned for what we would call "depot-level" repair.
(In general German LE agencies are "more organized" than most US agencies. = It's called: Serious, or even "obsessive", attention to detail.)

Your comment about magazine "rotation" is exactly correct, in that ALL magazines for semi-auto firearms need inspection/cleaning/re-lubrication and (imVho) a peace officer or armed forces member, who doesn't regularly unload/inspect/clean/rest his/her handgun & its magazines, "needs their head examined", as parts get dirty/corrode/wear out from daily "on the job" use.
(personally, I clean/inspect/reload my handgun & "carry" magazine weekly.)

ImVho, "we could learn something" about "attention to detail" from the German LE agencies, as when I was with AFPD in New Orleans (a long time ago) I "knew of" a NOPD motor officer who could NOT fire his Model 28 S&W revolver, due to rust/corrosion! - He was LUCKY not to have been wounded/killed in the incident.
(In my experience, MOST civilian LEO are not "gun people" and therefore a system of periodic inspection/maintenance by the department armorers is WISE.)

Note: Despite what is in "TV cop shows" & "Hollywierd crime movies", only a minority of US police officers ever get into a "shoot-out" during their career.

yours, satx

[Crow Hunter]

Nyeti, during the extended period that I had mine (1992-2012), the repeated magazine issues befuddled me too. I specifically asked the gunsmith at SIG that (given the extensive deployment of the P225/P6 in multiple German landers and agencies, had the magazine issue come up {of, if not, given my experiences and SIG's repeated detailed examinations of my P225 clearing the gun of fault/deficiencies, why had they not come up})-I never received a totally clear-cut answer.

I believe that P225/P6 magazines had at least 2 different manufacturing phases, as at one point they were roll-marked with the SIG-Sauer logo, at another they were plain and unmarked. I don't recall any other obvious material or dimensional differentiations between the two, other than the markings (or lack thereof).

My thoughts on why the issues didn't receive greater highlighting might have to do with several possibilities:

1. Perhaps my specific expereinces (and those of others similarly reporting) were a relative unique abberation;

2. Perhaps the German LEOs used range-provided magazines for practice/familiarization/qualification, and in that these magazines were presumably stored unloaded, and, when loaded to capacity were kept that way for relatively short periods of time, precluding the pressure accumulations from a consistantly loaded magazine cartridges exerting pressure against the feed lips from developing;

3. Perhaps the German agencies had a magazine rotation policy in effect, where magazines were rotated and "rested" (stored empty for a period), precluding the pressure build-up on the feed lips from sufficiently accumulating over time.

Trust me-my P225 expereince was very frustrating-I really liked the gun, shot well with it, and it carried /concealed well-but due to the magazine issue, I simply couldn't trust it on a reload magazine, unless the magazines were downloaded to 6-7 rounds to preclude the feed lip spread from developing with loaded magazines over time. Ultimately, this became unacceptable to me...

Best, Jon

Just spitballing here but could it be the case that they were only issued a single loaded magazine and that magazine, when loaded to capacity AND inserted into the firearm had enough support from the magazine well that it prevented the lips from spreading?

Maybe the problem only manifests when magazines are loaded to capacity and left without support on the lips allowing them to creep?

I had a P225 back in the late 1990's and I didn't have an issue with my 2 magazines. But I pretty much only loaded it to shoot.:rolleyes:

I was infatuated with my Walther P5 at the time, so I didn't even shoot the P225 that much.

[sheriffoconee]

My 5 foot 2, size 0 girl child moved out of my house to go to Presbyterian College she took my P6 with her....and what, now 10 years later she is married, and still has it...I guess it's hers now.
She shoots it well...got her SC pistol carry whatever license they have there to carry it..a P6 is a good handgun.

[Dagga Boy]

I was always very obsessive about magazines. I changed complete "sets" of magazines on my carry guns every January and July. If the mags are not damaged, I will change springs every couple years. I really think I have had good luck with mags due to this practice. My last P-225 was on long term loan and I just got it back within the last year. I need to go out and shoot it some to see what the deal is with mags. I never had a single issue with the late 80's W. German ones. I was also in an exchange program with German cops for a long time. Anal is an understatement about how there people are on maintenance and "timed rebuilds" of things. They really do not shoot much (many simply shot the mag and the single reload once a year-18 rounds). If I had to guess, I would really say with the hugely varied experiences between people who used these a lot back in the 80's and very early 90's, versus more recent users. I am venturing that something was done to change the mag design, or a Cohen sub contractor.

[stand watie]

sheriffoconee,

"I feel your pain". = My adult daughter (who is on the UT-Austin faculty), several years ago asked to borrow my East German-issue Makarov, as she said that she was "concerned" about walking/driving around campus unarmed.
I loaned it & the holster to her & it "disappeared" into her shoulder bag.

I haven't seen my MAK since. - Daughters tend to have "taking ways" & seem to believe that "whatever is Daddy's is theirs" for the "adopting". = There is considerable truth to the old saying that, "A son is yours till he meets his wife; a daughter is yours for all of your life."
(CHUCKLE.)

yours, sw

[stand watie]

nyeti, et.al.,

Largely as a result of some comments to this forum, I checked my 3 magazines with a micrometer & checked out 9 others that belong to 2 friends here in SA that routinely carry the P225 as a "duty weapon" and another friend (a civilian) who has 2 magazines for his P6.

As a result of that "inspection & measuring", I found that all 13 of the "marked"/Sig-made magazines were fine. Otoh, one of the 3 "no name" mags was "spread" at the "lips". - My GUESS (and that is ALL that it is, as checking 14 magazines is far from "a representative sample".) is that the "not Sig-made" magazines MAY "have design/quality problems" & should be inspected carefully before duty/CCW use.

yours, sw

[JonInWA]

As I've mentioned before, SIG-Sauer magazines were both roll-marked and plain. The lack of SIG-Sauer roll-marking does not in and of itself mean that they're not SIG-Sauer magazines. All of my magazines came directly from SIG-Sauer. To the best of my knowledge, there is only one after-market magazine manufacturer that produces magazines for the P225/P6, and they are considered to be very poor substitutes from all accounts that I've come across.

When my P225 was sent to SIG for the final time to resolve this issue, it was sent with all the magazines I had; as I recall, 2 were found either suspect or flawed and replaced, but the issues previously encountered reoccurred...

The feed lip spread is very subtle; while checking with a micrometer is certainly recommended, an essential real-world check is simply to fully load the magazine, insert it into the gun with the slide locked back, and then see if the first round successfully chambers when the slide is released (preferably by utilizing the slide release lever).

The problem seems to be a combination of feed lip spread and slide velocity; if the first round is successfully chambered (even with a magazine with slight feed lip spread)the problem does not reoccur in normal firing throughout the remainder of the magazine. In my experience, the problems manifest themselves only with first-round chamberings-i.e., the round at the top of the magazine.

My assumption with this is that if you for whatever reasons re-inserted a partially expended magazine with problematic feed lips into the gun at slidelock, the same problems would likely occur as well.

Best, Jon

[stand watie]

JonInWA,

I just went/got and CAREFULLY inspected the "un-marked" magazine (with a 10x magnifying glass) that Tom S____________ owns & which is "out of spec". - It has "subtle differences" when compared to the "marked" magazines. - I have no way of knowing WHO made it, maybe Sig, maybe an "outside contractor". It's NOT a "Pro-Mag", which I regard as JUNK, as "Pro-Mag" magazines are marked with the company name.
(Two of the 3 magazines that "were bought with" my pistol & marked as the property of the German Forest Service Police are "electric-penciled" with the handgun's serial number, so I presume that my P6 was once also the property of the Forstdeinst Politzei. - I have no way of knowing who did that rather crude "marking" on the side of the magazine OR even if I am correct in my "guesswork".)

yours, satx

[JonInWA]

Now try the reloading test from slidelock.

Best, Jon

[stand watie]

JonInWA,

WHERE do I find the "test"? - In looking at "the membership list" & in the forum "search", I find ZILCH for either (except that the search brings up this thread).

yours, sw

[JonInWA]

JonInWA,

WHERE do I find the "test"? - In looking at "the membership list" & in the forum "search", I find ZILCH for either (except that the search brings up this thread).

yours, sw

As described in Post #68 in this thread.

Best, Jon

[stand watie]

JonInWA,

OH, OK. - I thought you were talking about "slidelock" as a forum member's "screen-name" and/or some "special test". = My P6 feeds/fires fine with Tom's "out of spec, no name" magazine BUT mine seems to shoot most any ammo & with any magazine, so I'm not at all sure that that "test" is meaningful in most/all P6 handguns.
(The only handgun that was LESS "fussy" about ammo, that I've owned in 50+ years was an old/ugly, ex-Condor Legion, Astra 400 that seemed to "swallow" anything that would chamber, including some HOTTER than SMG 9MM handloads that I refuse to name, for fear that everyone would think me to be INSANE.= 18YO kids tend to be "just a little nuts".)

yours, sw

[JonInWA]

Yup...

Best, Jon

[stand watie]

JonInWA,

And then there was the 16Gauge PUMP RIFLE that a YOUNG/CRAZY biology prof & I built, when I was "RED HOT" 19YO.
(but that's a story for another day.)

yours, sw

[ToddG]

Please try to keep the thread on topic for the sake of members wishing to find accurate information about specific issues. Threads are not intended to become "I remember this time..." story boards. Thank you.