Efficacy of Revolver Dry Practice for Pistol Shooting?

[RJ]

I have a question for the greater group here that I'm not sure has been explored.

I did a search on a couple key words from thread titles, and didn't see much that addressed this subject. I'm a civilian shooter, currently D class in Production in USPSA using a Glock 19. My EDC is a Glock 26+2 mag. I also pocket carry a Ruger LCR. These are about my only handguns, not counting a Ruger New Model Blackhawk I received as a gift.

So...Dry Practice with the LCR? Good idea or bad idea?

Would using a revolver consistently, either before or after Dry Practice with a modern SFA (G 19 in my case) be a detriment or a help?

On the negative training side, the revolver press is long and generally uniform. The Glock is typical 0.5" press to a 5 lb ish wall. Would using a revolver for Dry Practice mess me up for shooting?

And what about shooting? Would using a Revolver for Dry Practice (either exclusively, or as an augmented set of drills) prior to Live Fire exercises screw things up for shooting?

Thanks for any insight into this.

[Lester Polfus]

I only have anecdotal information but:

I've been doing 500 reps of dry fire practice with a Smith and Wesson 638 for several years now, along with 50 rounds of live fire in the side yard during lunch once or twice a month. I found myself carrying the J-frame most of the time we went into town and decided if I was going to do that, I need to be really good with a J-frame. My ability with the J-Frame exceeds my expections of what I initially believed I could do with it.

My other two "platforms" were multiple Glock 19s, and a Glock 20 for woods use. I found that I shot them much better after doing the work with the J-Frame.

I recently bought a GP100 and assumed I would have a steep curve with it. I found that shooting it well is like child's play after shooting the J-frame.

[spinmove_]

You carry the LCR, so yes, you should definitely dryfire with it. You compete in USPSA Production with a G19, so yes, you should definitely dryfire with it.

The question now becomes: HOW are you dryfiring? What are your goals? Do your methods match up with what you want your end result to be?


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[Mark D]

Not a revolver, but I've found that dry fire with a DA pistol (PX4) seems to improves my trigger control with my Glocks. So I'm thinking the revolver DA trigger press might do the same for you.

Interested to hear what other folks think.

[JCS]

I couldn’t clean a dt at 4 yards with a Glock. I took a break from shooting glocks to practice with a newly acquired 442. The next time I tried a DT with a Glock I cleaned it at 5 yards after not live firing one in months.

My personal experience is yes.

[Doc_Glock]

I have found most every other trigger improves my Glock shooting to a point. DA revolver practice is low hanging fruit.

To get the final few percentage points of performance, dedicated Glock practice will be needed.

[Trooper224]

Master a DA revolver and everything else will seem like child's play. Likewise with a TDA pistol. I found that spending a lot of time with a TDA pistol actually helped my Glock shooting. Due to my years of revolver shooting the TDA pistol wasn't much of a challenge either.

To more directly answer your question: yes, you should dry fire practice with the Ruger and no, it won't be detrimental to your performance with your Glocks.

[GJM]

I learned to shoot one hand, with a S&W 317 and many bricks of .22 ammo. Steering a long, heavy trigger revolver definitely helps semi-auto pistol shooting.

The problem is that dry fire, especially for a newer shooter, needs to be paired with lots of live fire so you can see where the bullets strike. I think this is especially so for a Glock shooter.

[Clusterfrack]

Ben Stoeger does not recommend practicing in DA too much since most of your shots are SA.

I found a DA trigger to be pretty unforgiving, but so is a stock Glock trigger. Learning to shoot that well requires a good trigger press.

Revolvers feel weird to me, so I wouldn’t use one to practice shooting unless I wanted to get better at shooting a revolver.

Yes, I realize this doesn’t answer your question.

[runcible]

(Mirroring from elsewhere...)

In my experience and observations both:

Full-time DAO and DA/SA shooters have excellent carryover to SAO and near-SAO systems (e.g. partially or fully cocked striker fired systems, such as Glocks and M&Ps). There may be some static in the hand jive, like subconsciously decocking; but nothing too harmful.

Full-time SAO or near-SAO shooters (e.g. Glock and M&Ps) don't always have quite so smooth a transition to shooting a DAO or DA/SA system. DA/SA systems require for most a stricter diligence in manipulating the trigger - and more particularly in setting up their support hand in opposition to that - that SFA in particular just doesn't punish nearly as much for the absence of such qualities.

Full-time revolver shooters express this dynamic to an even greater degree, though with an occasional caveat about support hand placement, and less relevant mention due to the relatively small representation of them. You couldn't watch Pat Rogers run the trigger on a carbine without seeing his revolver-centric upbringing.

A heavy-DAO revolver with an optic on it, might be the strictest measure by which a shooter could judge their mechanics - with a high minimum required for good hits, and maximum feedback to the shooter for their trigger manipulation. You wouldn't get feedback on providing good mechanical resistance to the recoil cycle, but the elements of a good grip to enable that trigger press mostly cover that incidentally. For the shooter: the presence and usage of the optic provides more feedback on movement of the front-sight from the trigger-press itself as it happens; and the long\heavy trigger provides a greater interval across which to have useful observations. For the coach: the trigger press (and hammer, if exposed) provide indexes to observe for a singular trigger press from front to rear, and the necessary means to provide for corrective action as needed. That last is caveated in that if you're using a revolver to train an auto shooter, than the older guidance to press and hold until just shy of release ("press until you feel the second click, hold and steady your sight picture, then press the remainder.") does not apply here.

The shortfall is in the additional restrictions that a revolver places upon support-hand placement relative to on a semi-automatic system; that supporting hand usually ends up displaced further down to allow for cylinder rotation, and further to the rear so as to mind the cylinder gap. If one chooses to be ambivalent to the cylinder gap restriction, then it's a better tool for dry-firing in support of running an auto; but there may be a penalty if you should ever fire a revolver without adjusting your grip accordingly.

[deputyG23]

Not a revolver, but I've found that dry fire with a DA pistol (PX4) seems to improves my trigger control with my Glocks. So I'm thinking the revolver DA trigger press might do the same for you.

Interested to hear what other folks think.

That is my experience as well using a P250 for a dry fire trainer along with my carry 442.

[LSP552]

Master a DA revolver and everything else will seem like child's play. Likewise with a TDA pistol. I found that spending a lot of time with a TDA pistol actually helped my Glock shooting. Due to my years of revolver shooting the TDA pistol wasn't much of a challenge either.

To more directly answer your question: yes, you should dry fire practice with the Ruger and no, it won't be detrimental to your performance with your Glocks.

This! Learning to shoot a revolver well will translate to just about anything with a trigger.

[Gun Mutt]

Couple years ago, I was enjoying a bonfire with some good friends who are all shooters of varying levels, serious enough that all of them edc, all have at least one good class &/or competition under their belt. One of them breaks out the cheap looking, scoped crossbow he'd gotten in a horse swap with a coworker. They'd shot it earlier in the day and no one had hit the 3D deer. I watch two guys launch bolts and again, both missed completely, one high, one left.

For my turn, I knelt & propped my elbows on the table they'd been standing behind, centered the crosshairs a hair below dead center mass. It impacts a little left of aim, perfectly in the boiler room. Luckiest miss ever, they claim. Ok, give me another bolt. Same result. I lay the crossbow down as I stand up and say, "You sorry mf'ers need to work on your trigger control." We walk back to the fire and my wife asks how I did. My buddies begrudgingly admit I killed it. A friend's wife blurts out, "And you guys couldn't even hit it??" My wife just nods, "Yeah, pretty much anything with a trigger..."

Now, I'm no GJM, hell, I'm not even the guy that wishes he was GJM, what's his name, Jetfire or something? (I kid, I kid.) But I acquit myself well enough to avoid too much embarrassment when I do actually get to the range and am a wily enough old dog to know to stop when I hit a golf shot. Now that I'm carrying my j-frame 85% of the time, I do 99% of my dryfire with it and because it's a revolver, I find I do a lot more of it. With nothing to reset besides letting the trigger out, I'll do at least 10 and as many as 15 trigger pulls every time I raise the muzzle, just a boatload more than I ever do with my 1911 or Glock and probably 75% of those j-frame trigger pulls are SHO. I recently added a pressure switch to my X300, so I did spend some time doing Glock dry fire and it went through my mind several times just how friggin easy it was to both handle the full size pistol and the Glock trigger press.

[RJ]

Wow!

Thanks all. I really did not expect the response to generally be, "absolutely a revolver can help with trigger control".

I was actually more thinking, pfft, this will never work, but I need to check with the experts...I'll definitely add a line to my evolving 2019 Dry Practice Plan document, to include time with my unloaded LCR.

Many many thanks. Getting access to this kind of thinking, backed up by experience, is exactly why I support pistol-forum.

Rich

[GJM]

Wow!

Thanks all. I really did not expect the response to generally be, "absolutely a revolver can help with trigger control".

I was actually more thinking, pfft, this will never work, but I need to check with the experts...I'll definitely add a line to my evolving 2019 Dry Practice Plan document, to include time with my unloaded LCR.

Many many thanks. Getting access to this kind of thinking, backed up by experience, is exactly why I support pistol-forum.

Rich

Since I am always happy to spend the money of others, a matching LCR in .22 would be an awesome live fire training device, so you can see where those bullets hit, with low cost, recoil and concussion. The Rogers School uses a .22 revolver extensively in their Basic class, and Bill Rogers says most Advanced course students would greatly benefit from a day or two of .22, but their egos won’t make this palatable as a formal part of the Advanced course.

[Chuck Whitlock]

...I'll definitely add a line to my evolving 2019 Dry Practice Plan document, to include time with my unloaded LCR.

I recommend using snap caps.

[RJ]

I recommend using snap caps.

Will do.


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[Leroy]

There are benefits to learning how to manipulate a heavy and long trigger while maintaining sight alignment that will transition over to any other firearm. At a certain point it will not improve your shooting with any other gun.

In the end it will get to the point where you need to train with your Glock to get better with the Glock. Depending on your training schedule you could get to that point rather quickly.

If your goal is better Glock shooting in USPSA then you need to practice USPSA with your Glock.

I have spent a lot of time shooting DA/SA guns the last 4 years and even bought a J frame, before this I shot Glocks exclusively for 7 years. I cannot shoot a Glock as well as I did in 2014 when I stopped shooting them in competition.

[Spartan1980]

Since I am always happy to spend the money of others, a matching LCR in .22 would be an awesome live fire training device, so you can see where those bullets hit, with low cost, recoil and concussion. The Rogers School uses a .22 revolver extensively in their Basic class, and Bill Rogers says most Advanced course students would greatly benefit from a day or two of .22, but their egos won’t make this palatable as a formal part of the Advanced course.

Cannot possibly agree with this more.

I decided to take up revolver division in USPSA and struggled with both the 4" and 5" 625. Put them on their shelf in the safe and grabbed the 6" 686 and immediately jumped out of D class within a couple of matches shooting .38 Short Colt loads. After learning to be proficient with that long DA stroke people look at you weird when you tell them you actually prefer it. And when you do pick the autos back up you'll find that you haven't forgot a thing unless it has a frame mounted safety, but the trigger will be as it always was.

[BN]

I might have pulled a revolver trigger a time or two. If you can keep your sights on target through a long revolver trigger pull, then anything else is a piece of cake. There might be another thread going on about how much of shooting is trigger control. ;)

[RJ]

Ok...this might seem like a dumb comment but I went to go look at the prices of .22LR (approx $0.03) vs .38 Special ($0.25 on up). So now I understand why a .22 makes a good cheap training option.

But a Ruger LCR .22 5410 is around $400 cheapest I’ve seen.

If there are any good threads on how to buy a decent used DA .22 revolver, or what brands / types to looks for, can someone vector me there please?

“For now” I’m going to try what I have, which is my LCR and a couple boxes of misc. Wally World .38 I’ve picked up here and there, at the range this weekend.

(I did do 50 presses using snap caps tonight with the LCR with a good sight picture on a Gabe White 4” head dot at 7 yards. It was hard. I can see how that would build trigger control lol.)

[camsdaddy]

Ok...this might seem like a dumb comment but I went to go look at the prices of .22LR (approx $0.03) vs .38 Special ($0.25 on up). So now I understand why a .22 makes a good cheap training option.

But a Ruger LCR .22 5410 is around $400 cheapest I’ve seen.

If there are any good threads on how to buy a decent used DA .22 revolver, or what brands / types to looks for, can someone vector me there please?

“For now” I’m going to try what I have, which is my LCR and a couple boxes of misc. Wally World .38 I’ve picked up here and there, at the range this weekend.

(I did do 50 presses using snap caps tonight with the LCR with a good sight picture on a Gabe White 4” head dot at 7 yards. It was hard. I can see how that would build trigger control lol.)

Maybe look into reloading 38. I load 148 and 158 and could not imagine buying 38 loads.
The LCR will pay for itself in time. I think the challenge will be finding a cheaper snub with a decent trigger.

[Clusterfrack]

I would spend the money on training.

[GJM]

I would spend the money on training.

I almost always agree with the recommendation of training over hardware, but do you think trigger control can be acquired except by lots of dry and live fire?

[Clusterfrack]

I almost always agree with the recommendation of training over hardware, but do you think trigger control can be acquired except by lots of dry and live fire?

I'm with you on that. But, he already has a gun to shoot and dry fire.

[GJM]

I'm with you on that. But, he already has a gun to shoot and dry fire.

There is a big difference between a Shadow 2 and a Glock. Big, heavy gun with a light trigger like a Shadow 2 takes much less live fire to confirm your work in dry fire, than a Glock, which by comparison is like herding cats. Unless confirmed by frequent live fire, I guy can kid himself dry firing a Glock and thinking he has trigger control.

To advance to the next level, Rich needs to put many thousands of live rounds down range. In a perfect world, that would be with his primary Glock, with periodic expert instruction to trouble shoot problems, and competition to benchmark progress. If that isn’t an option, .22 may be part of his live fire system.

[Clusterfrack]

Great point, George. When I dryfire with a Glock, I do the "trigger press at speed" drill with single presses with a cocked striker. But most of the dryfire drills are with tape to keep the gun out of battery so the trigger works. I guess I think $500 is better spent on a class than on a .22 revolver.

(and speaking of that, I'm going to go dryfire with a P-07 and a Shadow 2)

[GJM]

Great point, George. When I dryfire with a Glock, I do the "trigger press at speed" drill with single presses with a cocked striker. But most of the dryfire drills are with tape to keep the gun out of battery so the trigger works. I guess I think $500 is better spent on a class than on a .22 revolver.

(and speaking of that, I'm going to go dryfire with a P-07 and a Shadow 2)

I would also recommend a class ahead of hardware, but Rich has a Porsche so he can afford guns, ammo, and training!

[RJ]

Maybe look into reloading 38. I load 148 and 158 and could not imagine buying 38 loads.
The LCR will pay for itself in time. I think the challenge will be finding a cheaper snub with a decent trigger.

Reloading is not going to be an option for me. Condo (1,000 ft sq) living and my ‘office’ is a shared guest bedroom / storage area / dog sleeping quarters. The chance of me buying any kind of reloading equipment are nil.

But p, on the other hand, what are the odds I could stroll into my LGS and pick up a decent used DA .22 Revolver, for say $200? Is there a ‘Glock 19’ of DA Revolvers?

[RJ]

I would also recommend a class ahead of hardware, but Rich has a Porsche so he can afford guns, ammo, and training!

Well, it *is* a used Porsche...but yeah I get it lol. Question of choices.

[RJ]

I would spend the money on training.

Yeah I dunno.

In the case of me missing these days I seem to almost always have a sight picture at the miss.

Meaning that most all of my Mike, Delta and Charlie hits over the last couple matches I’ve seen, in real time. I am not surprised when my stage is scored anymore because I just about know how I did when I get done.

Which ‘for me’ seems to resonate with Mr. Givens suggestion that I ‘need to use the bumpy things’ and Gabe’s advice aligns with that as well.

Since I got the G19.5 I’m up to over 3,000 rounds with it over maybe 16 months. Not a huge amount but I’m working full time with fairly frequent business travel these days. Plus grand kids and what not.

Training wise I have done Tac Con 2016, a day with Frank Proctor and Tom Givens Defensive Pistol Two Day. Plus Gabe’s class in September.

I’m going to Tac Con again in March, and will be taking Gabe’s class in Lakeland in April.

I’m still mulling over other options. The TPC 3 day in St George sounds awesome but I just don’t see having the time with work and current vacation commits in 2019.

So, I have what I have. Which in the case of my LCR, thanks to you guys and this thread, I may have discovered I have a nifty little trigger control training tool under my nose that I’m currently under utilizing.

Thanks all, I appreciate you guys input. I really do.

[BN]

But p, on the other hand, what are the odds I could stroll into my LGS and pick up a decent used DA .22 Revolver, for say $200? Is there a ‘Glock 19’ of DA Revolvers?

Decent used gun and $200 don't go together. You could always buy a TDA autopistol and practice dryfire with it and stay with 9mm. A PX4CC or an LTT Elite would be good. ;)

[RJ]

Decent used gun and $200 don't go together. You could always buy a TDA autopistol and practice dryfire with it and stay with 9mm. A PX4CC or an LTT Elite would be good. ;)

Arrrrrrrrrgggggggggghhhhhhh. Lol.

Ok ok I’ll check CDNN for holiday sales on .22 LCRs. :)

[Clusterfrack]

Taking a break from a dryfire session just now... I grabbed the Dan Wesson .357 I inherited from my dad and played around with the trigger. The gun simply doesn't fit me, and my finger is not at an ideal angle for isolating the trigger press from motion of the sights. I can say with complete confidence that practicing a DA pull with that revolver would be counterproductive for me.

By contrast, I tested a couple TDA guns that do fit my hand. If I wanted a real trigger finger workout to practice my press, a stock P-07 or a USP would work well. So, if your LCR happens to fit you, I guess it's a good trigger mule. If not... I'd look elsewhere.

Surf has an excellent video (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=L6-eJTS_5qg) on trigger mechanics that emphasizes how important fit is.

[camsdaddy]

Doubt you will find a decent trainer in your price range. Maybe a set of Crimson trace grips for dry fire.

[David S.]

I'm not a firearms instructor or even good enough of a shooter to be giving advice, so take this for what little it's worth:

Do you have specific goals? What are realistically willing to dedicate to those goals?
What's your current dry practice schedule?
Do you know how to dry practice?
Do you know what to look for?
Have you identified specific weakness and how to correct them?

I ask rhetorically, of course.

I'm sure a DA trigger is useful for some people at some point in their development, but I wonder if you're looking for an excuse? No offense.

You've been taught how to shoot. You just have to do disciplined work of daily practice.

If you haven't already, I'd suggest Ben Stoeger's or Steve Anderson's dry fire books. Pick ONE and consume their content, including podcasts if that's your thing. I chose Steve Anderson's material, but lots of people like Stoeger's stuff too. You're out $25. Follow their programs daily with your current gear til TAC CON and then re-consider.

I'm speaking as much to myself as to you. I've been down the revolver rabbit hole and found the juice wasn't worth the squeeze. I'm on the second week of Steve Anderson's Refinement and Repetition program. We'll see where that goes. I have high expectations

[pangloss]

At the risk if thread drift, I finished reading "Be Fast, Be Accurate, Be the Best" by Bill Rodgers last night. For live fire, he suggests starting with a .22 revolver, then moving to a .22 conversion on your service/carry pistol, then bumping to 9mm. My only .22 handgun is a 22/45, but I did order a brick of .22LR tonight to go with my next case of 9mm. One of the three inch LCRs in .22 seems like it would be ideal. Anyway, Rodgers's book is definitely worth reading. Order it through his website ($25) and not from Amazon ($70).

Sent from my Moto G Play using Tapatalk

[Chuck Whitlock]

I guess I think $500 is better spent on a class than on a .22 revolver.


Training wise I have done Tac Con 2016, a day with Frank Proctor and Tom Givens Defensive Pistol Two Day. Plus Gabe’s class in September.
I’m going to Tac Con again in March, and will be taking Gabe’s class in Lakeland in April.

I was going to say that Rich has some good training under his belt, but he beat me to it. I will add, though, that we often say that the purpose of training is to teach you what to practice.


...what are the odds I could stroll into my LGS and pick up a decent used DA .22 Revolver, for say $200? Is there a ‘Glock 19’ of DA Revolvers?

For a .22 revolver, an LCR will be the best understudy to the center-fire LCR you already have.


I’ll check CDNN for holiday sales on .22 LCRs. :)

No LCRs on sale for $200, but this is $280, and does have a DAO trigger:

https://www.cdnnsports.com/sig-sauer-p250c-22lr-27972.html?___SID=U

However, you might be walking a little backwards going that route.

[Clusterfrack]

I was going to say that Rich has some good training under his belt, but he beat me to it. I will add, though, that we often say that the purpose of training is to teach you what to practice.


Did any of his instructors tell him to buy a revolver to fix his trigger pull on an auto?

[willie]

Years of revolver double action dry fire helped to create skill that transferred to Glock triggers and also to d.a. semi auto's.

[jandbj]

Arrrrrrrrrgggggggggghhhhhhh. Lol.

Ok ok I’ll check CDNN for holiday sales on .22 LCRs. :)
While you’re there.... “Sig250 22LR”. Closest thing you’ll find that vectors (near) your budget, DAO trigger, and 22LR all at once.


ETA: Looked up a few posts and see that Chuck beat me to this.

[RJ]

Did any of his instructors tell him to buy a revolver to fix his trigger pull on an auto?

No. That’s why I started the thread.

EDIT Besides who doesn’t need an excuse to buy a gun? :)

[Clusterfrack]

No. That’s why I started the thread.

EDIT Besides who doesn’t need an excuse to buy a gun? :)

I’m not trying to be a dick. But here’s my take:

If I was one of your prior instructors and read this thread, I’d be wondering why you aren’t following what you learned from them.

If you just want a new gun, good on ya!

[Chuck Whitlock]

While you’re there.... “Sig250 22LR”. Closest thing you’ll find that vectors (near) your budget, DAO trigger, and 22LR all at once.


ETA: Looked up a few posts and see that Chuck beat me to this.

Chuck also runs a 9mm SigP250c as a primary, and has to acknowledge the potential for bias. Hence the last line of that post. ;)

[RJ]

I’m not trying to be a dick. But here’s my take:

If I was one of your prior instructors and read this thread, I’d be wondering why you aren’t following what you learned from them.

If you just want a new gun, good on ya!

No worries! It’s all good.

I would submit I *have* followed the training I’ve received. All of it is documented in my training journal.

The purpose in starting the thread, again, was not to rehash my current Dry Practice program, which is built on Stoeger’s books, Gabe’s suggestions, stuff I’ve learned here, and a little bit of the live in person training courses as outlined above. I can post my Dry Practice routine if you want. It’s a work in progress.

I’d have to think though, whether any of the live training included a specific evaluation of MY trigger control. You know what? I can’t think of anyone except for Tom telling me not to push so hard on the inside of my trigger finger (I was steering rounds low and away) in his class in Everett WA. (I don’t do that any more).

It’s interesting to note that something as critical as trigger control should have such a small impact on my collective training memory?

I don’t know what other noob’s experiences are. Mostly what I’m told is ‘press the trigger straight back without moving the sights.’

Which I understand, but is hard to do without a lot of work.

I’m trying to get the work done, believe me, but I am always thinking of maybe ways to get better.

Hope that helps where I’m coming from.

[David S.]

***Reiterating my lack of qualifications to answer your question***

As an alternative to a new gun, which may or may not help you find the results you’re looking for. Since you have identified a very specific deficiency, you might want to either get a private lesson for that deficiency or take a class that focuses on that specific thing.

I think the right instructor could get you on the right path in a half day focused lesson.
I suspect you have a multiple solid options for open enrollment classes in SW FL. The Ops Spec Training: Practical Fundamentals (https://opspectraining.com/product/practical-fundamentals-201901-daytona-beach-fla/) focuses on trigger control.

[jandbj]

Shrek

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?25142-AAR-John-McPhee-SOB-Tactical-2-Day-Handgun-1-2-Apr-2017-Bastrop-TX

I’ve considered having one or two of shrek’s video analysis done on my own technique. Think it might be what you’re looking for too.

[RJ]

***Reiterating my lack of qualifications to answer your question***

As an alternative to a new gun, which may or may not help you find the results you’re looking for. Since you have identified a very specific deficiency, you might want to either get a private lesson for that deficiency or take a class that focuses on that specific thing.

I think the right instructor could get you on the right path in a half day focused lesson.
I suspect you have a multiple solid options for open enrollment classes in SW FL. The Ops Spec Training: Practical Fundamentals (https://opspectraining.com/product/practical-fundamentals-201901-daytona-beach-fla/) focuses on trigger control.

Thanks David. Bookmarked.

PS Are you going to TacCon?


Shrek

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?25142-AAR-John-McPhee-SOB-Tactical-2-Day-Handgun-1-2-Apr-2017-Bastrop-TX

I’ve considered having one or two of shrek’s video analysis done on my own technique. Think it might be what you’re looking for too.

Yes definitely. I have looked several times for course date options and have not worked something out. I will try again in 2019. Based on feedback here and elsewhere I really see this individual focus as being really valuable for me.

[Leroy]

You need to stop taking classes and going to conferences so you can spend that time shooting your gun. You shot 3,000 rounds in 16 months, that's like 20 hours of range time if you shot that outside of a class. I don't even think you have shot enough ammo through that Glock to know how to dryfire it properly. Figure out in live fire what you need to see and feel to make shots at various distances and target sizes so that you can dryfire those tasks correctly. Your going to just spin your wheels until you put serious amounts of ammo through your gun.

[GJM]

While I have not hesitated to give Rich constructive criticism, I think that Rich, unfairly here, is taking a beating.

Relative to his overall development as a shooter, he has taken plenty of tactical training. What is standing between him and his next point of development is technical shooting, and specifically trigger control. A TGO standard question is “how do you shoot faster? After a lot of Robbie answering questions with more questions, where you will end up is him saying “to shoot faster, you must press the trigger faster.” When you ask him about what if you can’t work the trigger faster without disturbing the sights, his response is that you simply must learn to work the trigger faster or you will not be able to shoot faster.

So how do you learn to work the trigger faster. That will differ by platform, and differ by shooter, but unfortunately trigger control is something that each shooter needs to develop on their own. And, regardless of where you are in trigger control, you can always get a lot better. Won’t take the time here, but JJ talks about spending months and cases of ammo working in trigger control when he was a government lead instructor.

Trigger control work is exhausting and does not lend itself to being learned in long sessions, or group classes with lines of shooters. While periodic instruction is helpful, what really needs to happen is Rich needs to shoot thousands and thousands of live fire rounds to develop more trigger control. While it is always the Indian and not the arrow, different triggers are harder or easier to shoot. Rich has picked the Glock, which is easy to shoot OK, but one of the very hardest triggers to shoot really well.

[RJ]

While you’re there.... “Sig250 22LR”. Closest thing you’ll find that vectors (near) your budget, DAO trigger, and 22LR all at once.


ETA: Looked up a few posts and see that Chuck beat me to this.

Thanks!

I had been thinking about one of those .22 conversions but stopped when I found was about the cost of another gun, or almost.

At this point I’m going to stop commenting in this thread as I’ve gotten quite a bit out of it.

I’ll keep going with the Dry Practice this week with the LCR and see how a range session goes this weekend with the G19.5. Will be interesting whether it helps.

I will say pressing the LCR many many times is probably good for my hand strength lol. I did 50 presses on a simulated Gabe White head dot at 7 yards last night. Tired. :)

[Leroy Suggs]

You need to stop taking classes and going to conferences so you can spend that time shooting your gun. You shot 3,000 rounds in 16 months, that's like 20 hours of range time if you shot that outside of a class. I don't even think you have shot enough ammo through that Glock to know how to dryfire it properly. Figure out in live fire what you need to see and feel to make shots at various distances and target sizes so that you can dryfire those tasks correctly. Your going to just spin your wheels until you put serious amounts of ammo through your gun.

Rich, pretty much this
I suggest for the next 12 months forget the classes and shoot.
Use the class money and time to buy 12,000 rounds and shoot them.

You are shooting less than 200 rounds a month now. You will never get good. (Neither will anyone else shooting that small amount).

[jandbj]

DryFireMag for the G19? May also help with dry firing on that platform.
No personal experience but it looks like it may have merit.

[Jared]

While I have not hesitated to give Rich constructive criticism, I think that Rich, unfairly here, is taking a beating.

Relative to his overall development as a shooter, he has taken plenty of tactical training. What is standing between him and his next point of development is technical shooting, and specifically trigger control. A TGO standard question is “how do you shoot faster? After a lot of Robbie answering questions with more questions, where you will end up is him saying “to shoot faster, you must press the trigger faster.” When you ask him about what if you can’t work the trigger faster without disturbing the sights, his response is that you simply must learn to work the trigger faster or you will not be able to shoot faster.

So how do you learn to work the trigger faster. That will differ by platform, and differ by shooter, but unfortunately trigger control is something that each shooter needs to develop on their own. And, regardless of where you are in trigger control, you can always get a lot better. Won’t take the time here, but JJ talks about spending months and cases of ammo working in trigger control when he was a government lead instructor.

Trigger control work is exhausting and does not lend itself to being learned in long sessions, or group classes with lines of shooters. While periodic instruction is helpful, what really needs to happen is Rich needs to shoot thousands and thousands of live fire rounds to develop more trigger control. While it is always the Indian and not the arrow, different triggers are harder or easier to shoot. Rich has picked the Glock, which is easy to shoot OK, but one of the very hardest triggers to shoot really well.

I pretty much agree with all of this. If a rimfire let's Rich fire more real bullets that helps him diagnose issues with trigger control, then Rich should probably rock on and get one.

My two cents is that if Rich just wants another gun because he wants another gun, then he should get another gun. Bonus points if it helps him achieve his goals.

One of the best things I ever did for my shooting was using bricks of ammo and a K22 one winter just shooting walk back drills over and over and over.

To the specific gun in question here, the 22LR LCR, one of those is likely the next gun I add to my safe.

[GJM]

Here is my trigger control story. For years, maybe decades, my one hand shooting, especially support hand sucked. I bluffed my way through standards stages, and generally avoided it. Then I went to the Rogers School, and bluffing didn’t cut it. There was no way I could make Advanced there with my level of one hand shooting ability.

I decided to fix it, and used a S&W 317 revolver and more thousands of rounds of .22 ammo than I would like to admit. Working a long, heavy trigger while steering the sights on a lightweight revolver took a lot of effort, but eventually I started to get the hang of one hand shooting. I shot so much with just my support hand, that to this day, I would rather shoot one hand with just my left, support hand.

Trigger control is not a skill you are born with.

[Clusterfrack]

This is turning out to be a great thread.

Rich_Jenkins you're going to improve because you are putting in the work and focusing on what needs improvement. There are many paths to mastery, and some of them evidently are paved with .22 revolvers.

My personal experience, and from observing newer shooters, is that steering the gun by pressing the trigger isn't the cause of most bad shots. Pre-ignition push, and bad timing of the second shot (firing before gun has returned to target) are much more common, especially in SHO/WHO.

However, learning to press the trigger well enough to shoot really tight groups quickly at 25-50 yds requires a lot of work.

I'm still not convinced that investing a lot of time with a heavy, long trigger on a revolver is an efficient way to improve USPSA type shooting. However, switching to a DA/SA gun did help my trigger management because the DA pull is so unforgiving.

[David S.]

Not disagreeing with the between posts.

Have you experienced good trigger control? Do you know what Prepping The Trigger feels like when done correctly at speed? How about Slapping, or any other technique? Do you know what it feels like to be In The Zone? Have you felt the sensation of being on autopilot? I think there is value in having a good instructor guide you to sense those things, so you know what to look for. Yes, you could pound out thousands of hours of dry practice and tens of thousands of rounds to figure it out. Or you can find the rare instructor that can point you in the right direction. You'll still have to follow it up with thousands of hours and rounds to master the techniques you learned, but at least you have a starting point.

ETA. If your teacher isn’t teaching you the skills you want/need to learn, then it’s time for a new teacher. I’m not disparaging Tom Givens or anyone else. General classes are just that. Combative Pistol type classes are very broad in scope, so they can only touch on individual techniques like trigger control. They mention it, maybe spend 10-15 minutes shooting it, and move on. This isn't a complaint so much as the nature of the beast.

There are classes and instructors who are very qualified to teach specific skills. If you’ve identified an weakness, I would seek instructors who can help you specifically with that weakness while you’re taking GJM’s advice to put in those 10,000 hours and 10,000 rounds

Cheers,
David S.

PS. Yeah, I'll be at Tac-Con. I'm really looking forward to it.

[Jared]

This is turning out to be a great thread.

Rich_Jenkins you're going to improve because you are putting in the work and focusing on what needs improvement. There are many paths to mastery, and some of them evidently are paved with .22 revolvers.

My personal experience, and from observing newer shooters, is that steering the gun by pressing the trigger isn't the cause of most bad shots. Pre-ignition push, and bad timing of the second shot (firing before gun has returned to target) are much more common, especially in SHO/WHO.

However, learning to press the trigger well enough to shoot really tight groups quickly at 25-50 yds requires a lot of work.

I'm still not convinced that investing a lot of time with a heavy, long trigger on a revolver is an efficient way to improve USPSA type shooting. However, switching to a DA/SA gun did help my trigger management because the DA pull is so unforgiving.

I know this wasn't directly solely or mostly at me, but since I did post a bit earlier.....

I'm certainly not saying that shooting can be mastered with a 22 revolver alone. It has been very helpful with certain parts of the equation though. I'm not really any kind of a master all the same. I do know that during times when Ive done a lot of DA shooting with a 22 revolver, my overall abilities trended to the positive.

[GJM]

Bill Rogers developed a method at his Basic class that starts with a .22 revolver, moves to a .22 pistol, then 9mm semi-auto as a way of most quickly developing skills. Haven’t discussed this recently, but he may have introduced a LCR 9mm into the process as well.

Bill says that his shooting always improves when he teaches the Basic class and shoots a .22 on many demos.

[Kevin B.]

You are shooting less than 200 rounds a month now. You will never get good. (Neither will anyone else shooting that small amount).

It is entirely possible to cultivate a reasonably high degree of skill (think Light Pin level on the Gabe White standards) shooting 50 rounds per week/200 rounds per month. The key is disciplined adherence to properly structured dry and live fire practice sessions.

[runcible]

There are the autodidacts out there, that can self-educate to a high standard and with good fidelity; but I don't think that describes most of us when we're at the very earliest introduction to a given discipline (tabula rasa, and all that). The more informed our awareness of the discipline is, the better we are able to sustain and potentially self-educate to more fully internalize this or that; but that's contingent upon some kernel or sowing of informed knowledge that is both socially and individually verifiable. The more substantial that kernel, the greater the potential for self-sustainment and self-education.

In the absence of such a primer, the "practice makes permanent; only perfect practice makes for perfect permanence" dynamic is in play. If we talk down to professional instruction in that first year, and emphasize that they would be best served through self-education despite their specific perspective on the discipline being a limiting factor; then the only assured outcome if they follow that advice is that whatever they practice is going to be a deeply ingrained habit. We can only speculate as to whether that habit is optimal for the discipline, or perhaps something less so.

[nalesq]

It is entirely possible to cultivate a reasonably high degree of skill (think Light Pin level on the Gabe White standards) shooting 50 rounds per week/200 rounds per month. The key is disciplined adherence to properly structured dry and live fire practice sessions.

Also, I bet the pedagogical effect of doing a little bit of something more frequently (like practicing 50 rounds every week) is often going to be more beneficial than trying to do more at once less frequently (like practicing 200 rounds, but only once a month).


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[Chuck Whitlock]

Rich,
How much Dot Torture do you shoot? You might explore using either the standard 50 round, or John Hearne's 30 round version, with more frequency.

[Sherman A. House DDS]

It is entirely possible to cultivate a reasonably high degree of skill (think Light Pin level on the Gabe White standards) shooting 50 rounds per week/200 rounds per month. The key is disciplined adherence to properly structured dry and live fire practice sessions.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181213/2ff72d54f6e3c12c24f1b4570bff6a9c.jpg

I concur with Kevin B. This (200/month) is what I do.



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[GJM]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181213/2ff72d54f6e3c12c24f1b4570bff6a9c.jpg

I concur with Kevin B. This (200/month) is what I do.



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You were also probably in the gifted and talented program in school. I need like 200-300 a day or my shooting degrades, and more importantly, I get real grumpy.

[Sherman A. House DDS]

You were also probably in the gifted and talented program in school. I need like 200-300 a day or my shooting degrades, and more importantly, I get real grumpy.

I’m a self-admitted polymath, with a modicum of athletic prowess. But I’m also a comedically gifted mimic...and I have strong mirror neurons. If I see someone do something, I can copy it.


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[Gun Mutt]

I’m a self-admitted polymath, with a modicum of athletic prowess. But I’m also a comedically gifted mimic...and I have strong mirror neurons. If I see someone do something, I can copy it.

I can very much relate to this statement and as a practicing lectiophile, I damn sure enjoyed reading it, so well put.

[RJ]

Rich,
How much Dot Torture do you shoot? You might explore using either the standard 50 round, or John Hearne's 30 round version, with more frequency.

The last time I shot DT, the target looked like I’d used a shotgun. That was...a while ago.

I still have the 30 round ones you gave me. Now you mention it though I might have a go at DT this weekend after doing Dry Practice with the LCR all week.

[RJ]

Yeah, I'll be at Tac-Con. I'm really looking forward to it.

That is excellent news. I'm looking forward to it as well. I'll see if I can find you in the crowd during the conference. :cool:

FYI I am attempting to connect up with SeriousStudent (and anyone else) between 630-700PM local 3/14/19 at Voodoo BBQ & Grill at 1901 Manhattan Blvd, Harvey. Optional dinner to follow. Dress code is Orange, or something p-f related.

I'm driving from Ocala FL that day, so it won't be a long evening for me; just say hi, grab a drink and some food, then get some rest for Friday at TacCon. I’m in the Best Western Plus in Harvey.

PS hope all are well at home.

[SeriousStudent]

Orange is not my color. Brings back bad memories of jumpsuits and surly hosts.

I'm down for BBQ anytime, however.

[bwswanson]

Here is my trigger control story. For years, maybe decades, my one hand shooting, especially support hand sucked. I bluffed my way through standards stages, and generally avoided it. Then I went to the Rogers School, and bluffing didn’t cut it. There was no way I could make Advanced there with my level of one hand shooting ability.

I decided to fix it, and used a S&W 317 revolver and more thousands of rounds of .22 ammo than I would like to admit. Working a long, heavy trigger while steering the sights on a lightweight revolver took a lot of effort, but eventually I started to get the hang of one hand shooting. I shot so much with just my support hand, that to this day, I would rather shoot one hand with just my left, support hand.

Trigger control is not a skill you are born with.

At what distance did you start with the S&W 317? Did you start one handed when you decided to fix it? Thanks

[GJM]

At what distance did you start with the S&W 317? Did you start one handed when you decided to fix it? Thanks

Been a while, but I think I just put my eight inch steel out there, and kept moving them back as I got better. Did almost all with one hand.

[OlongJohnson]

You can afford the P250 .22LR. I paid even less for mine on GB. Look up the thread where I’ve posted my impressions of it. I’m a fan.

[Crusader8207]

You can afford the P250 .22LR. I paid even less for mine on GB. Look up the thread where I’ve posted my impressions of it. I’m a fan.

$279 shipped is what I paid from CDNN a few weeks ago. I love my 250 .22.


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[mmc45414]

I know this is the Marksmanship technical forum, and Rich asked about getting better, but I would reiterate getting a rimfire always ends up being a ton of fun. I think just being able to shoot thousands of rounds without a care to the cost, recoil or noise, is liberating. And maybe instead of the precise understudy LCR, a 3" LCRx would bring a few other things to the table:
33268
For one thing, I tend to not like buying things that I already have, this might be just enough different. With a little more sight radius that might mimic the G19, and with the option to shoot single action it might show what might be possible without a challenging double or Safe Action trigger. But it is light enough gun that it would not be totally easy.

I recently reacquired my 617-4 I let get away a few years ago. On Thanksgiving we had my steel targets plates set up, I have one rack of five 8" plates and it just great to dump fifty shells in my jacket pocket and just shoot, shoot, and shoot. The 617 is super easy to shoot, but a 317 is on my short list.

[David S.]

Not sure if you’ve covered this already but, what about adding a dot to your pistol for this purpose?

[RJ]

Not sure if you’ve covered this already but, what about adding a dot to your pistol for this purpose?

Meaning I’d have to get one of these?

https://us.glock.com/Products/g19_gen5_mos_fs

Hmmmm...

[scw2]

Meaning I’d have to get one of these?

https://us.glock.com/Products/g19_gen5_mos_fs

Hmmmm...

Or a revolver with a red dot... :)

[sharps54]

Or a revolver with a red dot... :)

The problem is finding a lightweight DA revolver in .22 that allows mounting of a RDS.

[That Guy]

The problem is finding a lightweight DA revolver in .22 that allows mounting of a RDS.

A Smith & Wesson, a J-Point mount that replaces the rear sight from Brownells and a Shield RMS?

[sharps54]

A Smith & Wesson, a J-Point mount that replaces the rear sight from Brownells and a Shield RMS?

My understanding is that J frames do not come drilled & tapped from the factory.

That said I don’t want to derail this thread and actually started one in search of the perfect .22 training revolver a few days ago here: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?34269-22-revolver-for-training