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NickA
03-07-2012, 10:22 AM
The "pointing a pistol at someone" thread made me realize that I don't practice a ready position enough, so I thought this might be a good companion piece to that thread. I was honestly surprised to read that a low ready can be faster than pointed at the target, but enough people confirmed it that I believe it.
On the range I usually default back to the "#3" position or I guess what would be called a high compressed ready (I think). This is mainly because I know I'll be shooting again, and let's face it, my press out needs work, but may not be ideal in the "real world".
In classes I've used Sul and extended low ready, honestly don't remember what TLG recommended, if any, since I was too busy trying to keep up to take notes.
Realizing that ready positions are situation dependent, do you have a default that you use, or more than one? How do you work them in your practice sessions? Pros and cons of different positions regarding speed vs safety?

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JHC
03-07-2012, 12:22 PM
As you note it's situationally "all of the above" but I think the high compressed ready appears most flexible to me. But to keep the muzzle discipline I'd use anything including Sabrina which I was fascinated to read on these pages that Kyle DeFoor taught for running.

I raised myself in the late '60's through '80's on the low ready from the Modern Technique but concluded the positions that pull the gun in closer to the body are better all the way around. Because there's so much more involved than just shooting. That's my take..

GJM
03-07-2012, 03:04 PM
Two data points. Par time for a shot to the A zone, and ideally to a three inch circle at 7 yards, from the extended, confirmed ready is .5 second. Same, but high transition is .75 second.

NickA
03-07-2012, 03:14 PM
Two data points. Par time for a shot to the A zone, and ideally to a three inch circle at 7 yards, from the extended, confirmed ready is .5 second. Same, but high transition is .75 second.

Just so I'm clear- you're talking about a low ready - gun extended, pointed at ground in front of the target, lifting the gun into your sight line, vs high and compressed, basically #3 in the drawstroke or start of a press out?


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GJM
03-07-2012, 03:37 PM
yes and yes

NickA
03-07-2012, 03:51 PM
yes and yes

Thanks.
As mentioned by someone in the other thread I do wonder what you'd be giving up for that extra speed, i. e. weapon retention or the ability to strike with the pistol if necessary.

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Joseph B.
03-07-2012, 09:55 PM
My “low ready” with a pistol is muzzle at slight cant downward, sights just below line of sight, focus being on the threat hands. Same with a rifle.

My “ready” is muzzle on the threat, low center mass with focus on the threat with sight picture (front sight or reticle) in the peripheral vision.

My “high ready” is compressed towards the center of my chest, muzzle up at a 45 degree cant, front sight just below line of sight, and focus on the threats hands. With a rifle the muzzle is up, mid portion of the hand guard is in my peripheral vision with my focus on the threats hands.

On the timer I am faster from the ready than the low ready; I am faster from the low ready then the high ready. It can be different based on the platform I am using and the distance to the target.

After firing I will normally go to third sight picture, my “ready position” and then either compress to a high ready or lower down to a low ready, depending on the position I am in, the shooting environment and the scenario or CoF I am being faced with.


ETA: I normally default to a high ready with a pistol when standing or kneeling with drills or flat range work, if using reactionary targets I will normally go low ready on the downed target, start my S/A assesment process, etc.

KravPirate
03-08-2012, 08:40 AM
Very interesting topic guys and I have no idea if I am faster from the low ready. This is definitely something I will test. Once again this goes back to training and how one would react in a high stress incident. I think we all feel comfortable from low ready because it is natural to keep our hands in a lower position but everything we know about unarmed combatives teaches hands up. To keep training simple with similar techniques practiced between armed and unarmed combatives, shouldn't we train more from a high ready position and make the high ready our default position? Not sure but wanted to get your thoughts because I also see the advantages of keeping the pistol low and tucked in close to body for retention purposes.

GJM
03-08-2012, 09:10 AM
I practice shooting from both the extended, confirmed ready, and the high ready, on a timer at every shooting session.

This is what I know about times. Rogers School par time from the extended confirmed ready is .50. The fastest I have ever done is .32, many times between .35 and .40, and somewhere in the .40 - .48 range is typical. From the high ready, or what Rogers calls the transition position, par is .75, and my good times are in the .65 range, and I don't recall ever shooting faster than .60.

I will leave it to others to discuss the tactical advantages of the respective positions, but I know that absent such a consideration, the extended, confirmed ready is so much faster that I can place two good shots from that position in the time it takes me to fire one shot from the high ready.

Mr_White
03-08-2012, 01:47 PM
I use/have used the following ready positions in training:

Threat ready, which has the gun extended and lowered enough to see the threat’s hands, is for general use where there is no proximate threat. It is similar to low ready, except the muzzle is as close to the desired point of aim as possible, but lowered enough to see the threat’s hands. Engagement standard for this is same as at Rogers - .50 for A zone hit at 7 yards. In practice, .3x is entirely doable, and I’ve seen a few reps at .28 or .29, though those are much less common.

Retracted ready, which is a muzzle-level version of the high ready others here employ, is for use when facing a proximate threat (I’ve been taught within 5 yards) or a proximate threat could be expected. I use the same .75 standard for engagement from this position, and in practice, usually see times of ~.6x and much less commonly ~.5x.

I might also use a one handed #2 position for even further proximate threat issues, though it is not as refined and specific as Southnarc’s #2 position.

Indoor ready, which is a renamed position SUL, is to avoid projecting the muzzle forward. I don’t know the engagement time from here. I’ll have to put it on a timer and see.

For me, threat ready, which is basically mechanically interchangeable with low ready, is the fastest, same as for GJM, and that’s why it stays in my repertoire. No question that retracted/high ready is more versatile.

In case anyone is wondering why some of us have been talking about it being faster to engage from an extended, confirmed ready (low ready or threat ready) than from being ‘aimed in’, that mostly comes from the fact that before you can shoot, you must first decide to do so.

To make the decision to shoot, you must usually see something that indicates you must shoot.

This requires at least adequate, if not maximum possible, incoming visual information to allow you to begin the firing process at the earliest possible time – the beginning of the firing process being to make the decision to begin the physical firing process. This requires at least adequate, if not completely unblocked, visual awareness of the threat/threat’s hands.

If you instead start out with sights on the spot you want to hit, and worse, are visually focused on the sights, the hands and gun blocking your view of the threat and your visual focus being on the sights rather than the threat/threat’s hands, may delay the incoming visual information that allows you to decide to begin the firing process.

I hope this explanation is not unnecessary and redundant; I thought I saw a few posters in the recent ready position discussions express surprise that a ready position that holds the muzzle off target/target spot would be functionally faster to engage from than being ‘aimed in.’

GJM
03-08-2012, 02:15 PM
In Rogers speak, and hopefully HeadHunter will chime in, a reaction time is .25 second (with vary small variations between humans). It takes one reaction time to react, and one more reaction time to fire the shot from the extended confirmed ready. Firing the same shot from the transition position (high ready) requires one reaction time to react to the threat/beeper, plus two reactions times for the shot, or a total of .75 seconds.

NickA
03-08-2012, 02:30 PM
OrigamiAK - great details, thank you. I even said in the OP that the speed from low ready surprised me.
So WHY exactly is it faster? Because you bring the sights into an area you're already focused on instead of trying to pick them up during extension? And I suppose lifting your extended arms is faster than extending them?

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GJM
03-08-2012, 02:34 PM
The Bill Rogers book does a great job of explaining why this is so.

bdcheung
03-08-2012, 02:45 PM
The Bill Rogers book does a great job of explaining why this is so.

Which book is that?

GJM
03-08-2012, 03:02 PM
book available here:

http://www.rogersshootingschool.com/

Mr_White
03-08-2012, 04:09 PM
OrigamiAK - great details, thank you. I even said in the OP that the speed from low ready surprised me.
So WHY exactly is it faster? Because you bring the sights into an area you're already focused on instead of trying to pick them up during extension? And I suppose lifting your extended arms is faster than extending them?

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I have always believed the time difference to be the product of a smaller motion.

When I extend my hands as if presenting from retracted/high ready, they travel about 24 inches before stopping at full extension. When I raise my hands from a low ready to high chest level (for an imaginary target at 7 yards) they only move about twelve inches - half the distance. Threat ready is less distance than that. The time difference makes sense to me in light of this.

Definitely curious what Rogers has to say though. I need to get that book.

GJM
03-08-2012, 07:35 PM
I think Bill explains the time difference between the extended, confirmed ready and the high transition for different reasons. The extended, confirmed ready is doing what he refers to as spot shooting, where the high transition involves enough steering combined with trigger manipulation that he states it takes one extra reaction time (.25).

I can ask him to elaborate when I see him Sunday evening.

Mr_White
03-08-2012, 08:23 PM
I think Bill explains the time difference between the extended, confirmed ready and the high transition for different reasons. The extended, confirmed ready is doing what he refers to as spot shooting, where the high transition involves enough steering combined with trigger manipulation that he states it takes one extra reaction time (.25).

I can ask him to elaborate when I see him Sunday evening.

Very interesting, thanks! I will certainly be interested in any elaboration he offers.

HeadHunter
03-08-2012, 09:31 PM
Tactical and legal considerations aside, the extended ready is faster because the sight alignment is already confirmed in both horizontal and vertical axes. All that is necessary is to place the pre-aligned sights on the target and achieve a sight picture. Any compressed ready position will force the shooter, when ideally done, to confirm the vertical axis, then the horizontal axis, then achieve sight picture. This assumes that the shooter does not adjust his/her grip between achieving sight alignment and engaging the target. Bill's term for adjusting the grip at that point is: "You've f**ked yourself."

There are a number of drills at Rogers that require the target timing to be increased when the ready position is changed from extended (low) ready to transition (compressed ready). That assumes that we want the student to have a reasonable chance at actually hitting the target.

I never tested it but I expect that starting from a pectoral index (i.e., the #2) would require a further increase in timing, on the order of 1/4 second.

NickA
03-09-2012, 03:33 PM
Tactical and legal considerations aside, the extended ready is faster because the sight alignment is already confirmed in both horizontal and vertical axes. All that is necessary is to place the pre-aligned sights on the target and achieve a sight picture. Any compressed ready position will force the shooter, when ideally done, to confirm the vertical axis, then the horizontal axis, then achieve sight picture. This assumes that the shooter does not adjust his/her grip between achieving sight alignment and engaging the target. Bill's term for adjusting the grip at that point is: "You've f**ked yourself."

There are a number of drills at Rogers that require the target timing to be increased when the ready position is changed from extended (low) ready to transition (compressed ready). That assumes that we want the student to have a reasonable chance at actually hitting the target.

I never tested it but I expect that starting from a pectoral index (i.e., the #2) would require a further increase in timing, on the order of 1/4 second.

So basically it's explained by my old nemesis, Common Sense, and his henchman Geometry ;)
Thank you for the detailed response, HeadHunter.
If anyone has more to say regarding different ready positions in different situations I'd love to hear it.
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abu fitna
03-10-2012, 01:00 PM
I won't argue with the speed questions. My choice of ready is usually however dictated by tactical situation. High ready for tubular environments, Sul for stacking and moving between threat - non threat areas. I also have used a modified sul quite a bit, where the support hand is used not only as pivot to firing grip but as concealment to keep the bulk of the slide and upper frame from casual view. Useful for discreet entry, crowd scenarios, and vehicle egress in open view - scares the locals less.

joshs
03-10-2012, 02:19 PM
Where exactly is the pistol in the "transition position?" I've timed myself a number of times from low ready and eye-target-front sight ready and I don't notice a significant speed difference, especially with smaller targets.

jthhapkido
03-11-2012, 11:10 AM
I'm not following this. Extended ready was described as gun at full extension, depressed enough to point at the ground in front of the potential target. If the gun is depressed that much, how is sight alignment confirmed already? I am missing something here.

Sight alignment as opposed to sight picture. :)

In other words, a correct low extended ready position has the gun aligned with the hands properly such that the rear sight is already in alignment with the front sight. All that remains is to lift the hands to bring that (already set) sight alignment up until it is superimposed on the target with the correct sight picture.

All of the other ready positions have the sight alignment off (there isn't a direct line from your eye through the rear sight to the front sight)---so it adds one more thing that needs to be done before the shot can be taken.

HeadHunter
03-11-2012, 04:28 PM
Where exactly is the pistol in the "transition position?" I've timed myself a number of times from low ready and eye-target-front sight ready and I don't notice a significant speed difference, especially with smaller targets.

Pistol at approximately pec level, bore parallel to the ground, front and rear sights underneath the eye-target line.