STOICISM

[Otaku.edc]

Anyone here have an interest in Stoicism or considers themselves a student/practitioner?

Reader of Epictetus? Seneca? Marcus Aurelius? Rufus? Cicero?

Subscriber to the Daily Stoic?

Interested in how to make the four Stoic virtues (justice, temperance, courage, wisdom) a habit?

The role that oikeiosis ought to play in our social and political relationships?

What are the best translations of the primary works? What are the best books “about” Stoicism?

What are the best blogs/online sources?

Anyhow, I’m a student of it for the several years and miss talking about it online.

[JHC]

Dabbled. Mostly it was ingrained by my dad who could have written the book. ;)

[WobblyPossum]

I believe that Meditations and Letters From a Stoic helped shape me into the person I am today. They didn’t put new ideas in my head but explained and expanded on things I felt and thought in ways I couldn’t articulate.

[Chemsoldier]

I don't know how good a stoic i am, but i admire the hell out of them. Found it through internet sources, perhaps Brett McKay's The Art of Manliness. Read The Obstacle is the Way. Read James Stockdale's works. I have read Epictetus, Meditations and am working my way through Seneca's letters.

[Otaku.edc]

I believe that Meditations and Letters From a Stoic helped shape me into the person I am today. They didn’t put new ideas in my head but explained and expanded on things I felt and thought in ways I couldn’t articulate.


Dabbled. Mostly it was ingrained by my dad who could have written the book. ;)

One of, if not the main thing, I love about Stoicism is that it is/was viewed to be a “philosophy as a way of life” (Pierre Hadot).

The lessons are in living.

If you asked the Roman Stoicism for examples of Stoic philosophers they were apt to say, not people who wrote treatises, but people of action ie people of virtue. The person they did name often was Cato (https://dailystoic.com/cato/).


But formal discourse will not do as much for you as direct contact, speaking in person, and sharing a meal. You must come and see me face to face - first of all, because humans believe their eyes much more than their ears, and second, because learning by precepts is the long way around. The quick and effective way is to learn by example.

- Seneca, Letter 6.5

DanM: The University of Chicago Press published the COMPLETE (https://www.amazon.com/Letters-Ethics-Lucilius-Complete-Annaeus/dp/022652843X/ref=asc_df_022652843X/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312087807240&hvpos=1o2&hvnetw=g&hvrand=14920239903353832836&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=t&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9011449&hvtargid=pla-417121298601&psc=1&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=61316180119&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=312087807240&hvpos=1o2&hvnetw=g&hvrand=14920239903353832836&hvqmt=&hvdev=t&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9011449&hvtargid=pla-417121298601) Letters of Seneca a few years ago, the first such translation into English in nearly a century. It is a triumph.

[Otaku.edc]

I don't know how good a stoic i am, but i admire the hell out of them. Found it through internet sources, perhaps Brett McKay's The Art of Manliness. Read The Obstacle is the Way. Read James Stockdale's works. I have read Epictetus, Meditations and am working my way through Seneca's letters.

James Stockdale is a great example of a Stoic. I’m pleased his talks to the Naval Academy are available online, Part One (https://www.usna.edu/Ethics/_files/documents/stoicism1.pdf) and Part Two (https://www.usna.edu/Ethics/_files/documents/Stoicism2.pdf).

[Otaku.edc]

Stoicism and the GWOT

A couple of blog posts on Stoicism and its relationship to the GWOT.

This one (https://donaldrobertson.name/2018/11/23/jon-meacham-on-marcus-aurelius/) is by Donald Robertson, one of the best Stoic scholars living writing about how a piece written by the popular historian John Meacham (about an attempted airline bombing) gets a bit of Stoic philosophy (from Marcus Aurelius) actually correct, a rare thing in popular culture.

The other is by Seth Haselhuhn, a sports psychologist on “How to build Stoic toughness and resilience (https://dailystoic.com/seth-haselhuhn/).” If you recognize him, it’s likely from a series of videos he did with BaerSolutions/GreyHive.

[John Hearne]

I consider myself a failed Stoic, does that count?

[Otaku.edc]

I consider myself a failed Stoic, does that count?

The classic line is that there are no Stoic Sages, hence by extension no Stoics. Epictetus, probably the most militant of the Roman Stoics, used to use the label of ‘philosopher’ as an insult. Seneca is viewed by many, including his contemporaries, as a failed Stoic, given his vast wealth and relationship with the Emperor Nero.

All to say, outside Socrates, Cato, and some names lost to history..... we are in welcome and good company. 🔥🖖


Why did you decorate yourself with what belonged to others? Why did you call yourself a Stoic?

Observe yourselves thus in your actions, and you will find to what sect you belong. You will find that most of you are Epicureans, a few Peripatetics, and those feeble. For wherein will you show that you really consider virtue equal to everything else or even superior? But show me a Stoic, if you can. Where or how? But you can show me an endless number who utter small arguments of the Stoics. For do the same persons repeat the Epicurean opinions any worse? And the Peripatetic, do they not handle them also with equal accuracy? who then is a Stoic? As we call a statue Phidiac, which is fashioned according to the art of Phidias; so show me a man who is fashioned according to the doctrines which he utters. Show me a man who is sick and happy, in danger and happy, dying and happy, in exile and happy, in disgrace and happy. Show him: I desire, by the gods, to see a Stoic. You cannot show me one fashioned so; but show me at least one who is forming, who has shown a tendency to be a Stoic. Do me this favour: do not grudge an old man seeing a sight which I have not seen yet.

Epictetus, Discourses 2.19.20

[FrankinCA]

I believe that Meditations and Letters From a Stoic helped shape me into the person I am today. They didn’t put new ideas in my head but explained and expanded on things I felt and thought in ways I couldn’t articulate.

Absolutely agree. I’ve only read Meditations though. It gave me great insight into myself and how I view/interact with the world.

I also give Frank Herbert (Dune) credit as well. Although not stoicism, it touches on many themes.

[RevolverRob]

I read Aurelius, Epicetus, and Cicero as a young adult. I always liked Aurelius for the practical wisdom in his writings. I don't really identify as a stoic. But yet, I embrace most of the main tenets of stoicism in my personal philosophy. Propositional logic, that all things being are made of matter, that abstractions can be pondered, that some things are simply indifferent, truth can be reached by logic and investigation, that naturalism is a valid concept. I embrace the various practices proposed for the most part by stoicism, including self-reflection, contemplation of death, meditating, acceptance.

Where I break from classical Stoicism is in the acceptance of fate; I do not believe in fate. Or at least not in the conceptual "intelligent" or omnipotent form of Fate commonly described by classical stoics. Quite the contrary, the only fate in existence, to my mind, is the deterministic end of being. If you are you will die. That is the only fate, fatality.

I haven't thought too hard about stoicism in a long time. But Massimo Pigliucci, who primarily conducts research in Evolutionary Theory is a big proponent (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9OCA6UFE-0&vl=en) of stoicism as a modern philosophy. I'm a big fan of his professional work as a biologist and his work in popularizing and characterizing an Extended Evolutionary Synthesis (EES) is extremely well done; as in, his name will be among those cited for decades (centuries?) to come along side guys like Darwin, Wallace, Mendel, Huxley, and Haldane (to name a few). The conceptual ideas behind the EES have some basis in stoic propositional logic and are profoundly important for work going on in evolutionary biology currently. It was his work with EES that prompted him to explore various philosophical stances. Four years ago or so, he took a sabbatical from his biological work to do extended research into stoicism. In other words, I think the guy has a lot to offer on classical philosophical thoughts, while still coming to be a philosophical epistemologist from a parallel field of study (one that is fundamentally based on conceptual ideas of Nature, too).

And I think that's all I've got to offer on stoicism.

[JHC]

As noted I grew up with the philosophy without it's name. On occasion I jest with friends that my superpower is rationalization. What I mean is accepting how things broke one they broke a certain way and going forward from there. Not letting the should've would've could've narratives play in loops in one's head. That's a killer.

[Otaku.edc]

I know Massimo from when I was a part of the Stoicism Group on Facebook.

His blogs, Footnotes to Plato and How to be a Stoic were terrific. The later of which he turned into a book after an article he wrote for The Stone in the New York Times. It was cool to see him develop.

RevolverRob if you are in New York City, he is a part of a Stoic Meeting Group every month and hosts a Stoic Camp once a year outside of NYC. last year I think they did it in Rome.

The best way these days to get his output is via Patreon (https://www.patreon.com/PlatoFootnotes/posts), he puts out a lot of content, there. It’s worth it.

My issue with Stoicism is the Physics.

Lawrence Becker (who sadly just passed away) wrote a major work (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/069117721X/ref=dbs_a_def_awm_bibl_vppi_i0) trying to update Stoicism for modern times, it is a technical philosophy work, but a profitable one if interested.

[Otaku.edc]

As noted I grew up with the philosophy without it's name. On occasion I jest with friends that my superpower is rationalization. What I mean is accepting how things broke one they broke a certain way and going forward from there. Not letting the should've would've could've narratives play in loops in one's head. That's a killer.

Jocko Willink has a similar experience when asked if he studied Stoicism. He replied that he had not.

If you saw the quote I posted in my reply to John Hearne, you can see which one Epictetus valued and who was closer to being labeled properly as a Stoic.

Given that, your sentiment is what the Stoics called the Dichotomy of Control.

It is the very first line of Epictetus’ Enchiridion:


Some things are within our power, while others are not.

[Otaku.edc]

Absolutely agree. I’ve only read Meditations though. It gave me great insight into myself and how I view/interact with the world.

I also give Frank Herbert (Dune) credit as well. Although not stoicism, it touches on many themes.

Pierre Hadot’s work, THE INNER CITADEL (https://www.amazon.com/Inner-Citadel-Meditations-Marcus-Aurelius/dp/0674461711), might be of interest.

[Poconnor]

It looks like I just found some new books to read. Thank you

[Kyle Reese]

Failed stoic, but I dabbled in pacifism once.

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk

[TNK]

I am a Stoic, but I am not a good one. Seneca is my preferred writer.

I will not get into personal reasons about my practice of Stoicism, but should we ever meet face to face, I am happy to discuss it.

I once signed up for the Daily Stoic but the link failed.

Perhaps the hardest aspect of Stoicism for modern Americans to entertain is Stoicism's acceptance, at least according to Seneca, of suicide as an ethical choice. There is an entire mental health industry that will have you committed, as long as your insurance lasts, for espousing such views. Be safe out there.

[Otaku.edc]

I am a Stoic, but I am not a good one. Seneca is my preferred writer.

I will not get into personal reasons about my practice of Stoicism, but should we ever meet face to face, I am happy to discuss it.

I once signed up for the Daily Stoic but the link failed.

Perhaps the hardest aspect of Stoicism for modern Americans to entertain is Stoicism's acceptance, at least according to Seneca, of suicide as an ethical choice. There is an entire mental health industry that will have you committed, as long as your insurance lasts, for espousing such views. Be safe out there.

How the Stoics dealt with “the open door” and when it could/ought to be used is something very different from modern sensibilities. Cato being a prime example.

Seneca is my favorite Stoic writer, as well.

The Daily Stoic is a good popular introduction to Stoicism. Stephen Hanselman, one of the two founders, is a great guy and very knowledgeable about Stoicism.

[TNK]

Cato was a hero in the Early American Republic. He will be again when our current one fails. I am a fatalist in that mode.

[blues]

I've always admired the Stoics and find a great deal of value in their philosophy for living (and dying).

[Otaku.edc]

One of the biggest errors that popular culture makes about Stoicism is that it seeks to suppress the emotions by design and is therefore inhuman. The best example of this is Gene Roddenberry basing the character of Spock, on his erroneous understanding of Stoicism.

This is a great talk by John Sellars about why that view is a fundamental misunderstanding of what the Stoics believed


https://youtu.be/p_jC8e2UgcU

[TNK]

Thank you for this video. It is a good explanation of Stoicism. It is grounded in more Greek terms though than the later Roman version of Stoicism. For instance, see Seneca's essay On Anger. He tells the story of a wealthy man who is so habituated to anger that he beats to death a servant for breaking a glass. It is our habits, the behavior we do repeatedly on a daily basis, that help us win or lose. We live in a modern world in which anger is condoned for the sake of seeking justice.

Per Seneca, this habit will lead us not to making things better but worse. The incidents of road rage, mass shootings, riots, protests, and so on are not good for anyone, and work against the experience we are seeking, a sense justice in the world. The din of the digital age grows louder and more damaging. Notice how people now walk around looking at their smartphones. Human mind is universal.

It is our habits that kill us, as we kill others. In a culture of intoxication, one that approves of more wealth as a virtue, and the self-indulgent right to express our passions as if there is no one else to consider, to respond when mad, will make us mad. See Seneca's plays, his tragedies, to see how this behavior will work out for you.

[Otaku.edc]

TNK: Seneca’s piece On Anger is terrific and very much not what is in fashion in the modern age. To call it a ‘madness’ as he does is the right description. I have Seneca’s plays, but those and his work On Natural Questions are the two areas I have not delved into yet.

When you really get into Stoicism and it’s history, seeing how the Founding Stoics works and beliefs get unpacked from little nuggets here and there is fascinating. The HUNDREDS of works that have been lost is a travesty. And the fact that we even have, say the MEDITATIONS and DISCOURSES verges on miraculous when you investigate their history.

[JHC]

Thank you for this video. It is a good explanation of Stoicism. It is grounded in more Greek terms though than the later Roman version of Stoicism. For instance, see Seneca's essay On Anger. He tells the story of a wealthy man who is so habituated to anger that he beats to death a servant for breaking a glass. It is our habits, the behavior we do repeatedly on a daily basis, that help us win or lose. We live in a modern world in which anger is condoned for the sake of seeking justice.

Per Seneca, this habit will lead us not to making things better but worse. The incidents of road rage, mass shootings, riots, protests, and so on are not good for anyone, and work against the experience we are seeking, a sense justice in the world. The din of the digital age grows louder and more damaging. Notice how people now walk around looking at their smartphones. Human mind is universal.

It is our habits that kill us, as we kill others. In a culture of intoxication, one that approves of more wealth as a virtue, and the self-indulgent right to express our passions as if there is no one else to consider, to respond when mad, will make us mad. See Seneca's plays, his tragedies, to see how this behavior will work out for you.

That was interesting. For some reason it reminded me of this piece I'd just read from David French that seems to tie in albeit obliquely to your points. https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/12/kyler-murray-helen-andrews-shame-mob-america-intolerance/?fbclid=IwAR12RRUYy6wmiJXErs2SBSlqiyYywKgFMPeuDwR_ 2APaDUIQkTPwNwqNAZg

[Otaku.edc]

In regards to insults and Stoicism, someone to check out is William Irvine.

[TNK]

When I say that I am a Stoic, but not a good one, I am alluding to the idea that I accept Stoicism in a heterodox mode. I am not interested in getting it just right, as we read in the ancient texts, but rather as it is adapted to the moment.

Lawrence Becker's New Stoicism, which I read 20 years ago, wants to practice Stoicism, as I recall, with an understanding of modern psychology. This move is okay, as long as one admits that modern psychology fails its own standards for validity.

Modern sensibilities still insist there is a there there. I doubt it. Read the novel The Recognitions by William Gaddis. Talk about being out of step with modern sensibilities. Its thesis that modern life is a forgery, and not a very good one at that, leaves everyone angry.

The novel is 956 pages, and, when you are told you have wasted your life admiring a forgery, whether it be religion, art, or politics, it is no fun.

Seneca says, in his letters, Stoics don't pray. Indeed: It is no fun to think you never had a chance. It is un-American.

Go to the Wikipedia article on "Meaning-Making" and read it. Any choice you make from the list is good as long as it conforms to some modicum of reason. Stop reacting to the advertising that is modern life. Live deliberately.

[TNK]

“Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity.”
― Seneca

[LittleLebowski]

Dabbled. Mostly it was ingrained by my dad who could have written the book. ;)

This.

[blues]

This.

Yep. My late father meets the qualification as well. Child of the Depression, grew up for much of his youth in orphanages and foster homes. Graduated high school, reunited the family, (mother, younger sister, two younger brothers...his father had abandoned them years earlier), and gave up being the first in the family to go to college to become their sole means of support.

I had to find out about it from others.

[JAD]

A good study of especially the neo Stoics is healthy for anyone, and there was an awful lot that they wrote that the Church Fathers were in deep agreement with, so much so that Dante placed Seneca in the first circle of Hell, which is about as good as he could get. Stoicism has led many very intellectual persons to Catholicism, as with Leah Libresco.

The elements in which neo Stoicism differs most profoundly from Christianity are illuminating.

1) Think about how the Stoics look on love, and see if you agree with it; at the very least, they see it as toxic to self-sufficiency. Contrast it with especially St. Paul's writing on the topic.
2) Consider the goal of self control, which both the Stoics and the Christian ascetics considered a primary goal. Is the best end to master oneself, or to renounce the self?
3) Relatedly, the Stoics see self sufficiency as a virtue ("The wise man is self-sufficient"), but at the same time they share the ascetics' perspective on inherent depravity. The Christians of course see the self as insufficient and external salvation as necessary. Does the first perspective lead one to nihilism? Are people usually able to overcome their nature by themselves?


Good stuff to think about.

[Otaku.edc]

The relationship between the Stoics and Christianity is a rich one: Logos, Christmas/Saturnalia, Marcus Aurelius view off Christians as histrionic, Seneca and Jesus walking the Earth simultaneously, Christians forging letters between Seneca and Paul, etc.

Some links:

https://howtobeastoic.wordpress.com/2015/10/08/neo-stoicism-and-the-relationship-between-stoicism-and-christianity/

https://www.iep.utm.edu/neostoic/

https://www.iep.utm.edu/lipsius/

http://misc-stoica.blogspot.com/2015/02/meditation-on-past-evils-neostoic.html

[Otaku.edc]

Nice animated short on the Dichotomy of Control by the BBC, narrated by Massimo Pigliucci.


https://youtu.be/UEh5c1ZAbB0

[UNK]

Fascinating thread. I found this interesting interview. https://fivebooks.com/best-books/massimo-pigliucci-stoicism/

[Cheap Shot]

Fascinating thread. I found this interesting interview. https://fivebooks.com/best-books/massimo-pigliucci-stoicism/

I just finished the second book listed in the attached link: A Guide to the Good Life by Wm Irvine. One of the better sources I've read about Stoicism. Easily understandable for a "non-philosopher" like me, I learned alot.

Appreciate the links others have provided.

[Otaku.edc]

Fascinating thread. I found this interesting interview. https://fivebooks.com/best-books/massimo-pigliucci-stoicism/

Five Books is one of the best places on the internet. 📚🤓

[TNK]

Bateson was not a Stoic, but his "Steps to an Ecology of the Mind" is in accordance with the Stoic ideal of living in harmony with Nature and the Stoic's Pantheism. I read this book as an undergraduate 40 years ago, and I still return to it for intellectual refreshment. The woman in the video presents it concisely and accurately. I like the vintage clips of Bateson too.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7r0hUyT7q4

[Otaku.edc]

Curious tidbit:

HERCULES was/is a great role model for the Stoics, going back before the school was even founded.


https://youtu.be/kqAlR9im-cw

[TNK]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOusKPeH7nU