Russian training...

[Poseidon]

Hello!
What do you think of such drills? Only combat bullets :) from intimate distances are used.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xObykrVBGD0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsIIyYWSfqU

[Joe in PNG]

I suspect that the general consensus here regarding this kind of "training" is that it is pretty unsafe, to be generous.

"Stupid and full of Derp" would be a less generous description.

[john c]

This reminds me of the ISIS "training" videos that have surfaced. They always reminded me of 14 year old boys playing army, only with real life full auto AKs. It's like they watch real western army training videos, which look cool, and are trying it themselves.

Or those middle eastern military videos, where they're jumping through hoops of fire in front of dignitaries. What does that have to do with combat capability? I guess those guys spend all their time training on silly stuff for VIPs.

What I did notice is that their gear and tactics are heavily influenced by US and western tactical gear. I'm surprised they don't have their own ideas and equipment, considering the Russian experience and general military competence.

[AZgunguy]

I always prefer to train to not cross over my partners line of fire because I might owe him money or have slept with his girlfriend and he may decide today is the day for payback.

[Chemsoldier]

I am not seeing the purpose. Especially the bits where people qre holding the targets on the flat range.

If this is individual training not for a single team it is needless risk. If this is a single team, not shooting each other is not a skill to be trained on the flat ramge in drills. Shoot to hard standards of speed and accuracy on the flat range, and then get into the shoothouse and dont shoot each other in context of a collective training event. If a group needs stylized "not shooting each other" drills, they are not doing it right.

[TCB]

What is the benefit of using live fire over SIM rounds for the stuff with roll players? Most of the drills look like range kata nonsense to me...

[El Cid]

Just joined. First post. Click bait? I’m not contributing to his YT hits.

[HCountyGuy]

This sort of training seems stupid to myself, as well as numerous others here.

What purpose does it serve? Confidence building?

Do it with SIM rounds if you feel the desire to do it. I don’t care how squared away the other guy is, Murphy’s punk-ass loves stuff like that and it only takes one slip-up to deliver a tragedy.

What’s worse is the state-side training outfits that are incorporating this nonsense because “train like you fight” and “the real world won’t be a static range”. More tacticool fantasy-camp nonsense bound to result in a wrongful death lawsuit. Yet, people flock to it because they think it’s high speed operator stuff.

[Drang]

Just joined. First post. Click bait? I’m not contributing to his YT hits.

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[Stephanie B]

How often do you get to see Darwin dumping bleach into the gene pool?

[Duke]

That’s gonna be a no for me dog....

[SeriousStudent]

How often do you get to see Darwin dumping bleach into the gene pool?

Sadly, not often enough.

[Joe in PNG]

What's Russian for "Hold vodka and watch this!"

[Cypher]

Hello!
What do you think of such drills? Only combat bullets :) from intimate distances are used.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xObykrVBGD0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsIIyYWSfqU

You're dead to me I'm out.


I never thought I'd say this on PF but In before the lock

[Poseidon]

This reminds me of the ISIS "training" videos that have surfaced. They always reminded me of 14 year old boys playing army, only with real life full auto AKs. It's like they watch real western army training videos, which look cool, and are trying it themselves.

Or those middle eastern military videos, where they're jumping through hoops of fire in front of dignitaries. What does that have to do with combat capability? I guess those guys spend all their time training on silly stuff for VIPs.

What I did notice is that their gear and tactics are heavily influenced by US and western tactical gear. I'm surprised they don't have their own ideas and equipment, considering the Russian experience and general military competence.

Hi friends,
I'm from Bulgaria. I'm not a troll as implied by other users. We discuss this topic in Bulgarian forums as well.
http://thegunman-bg.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=17381&p=218620#p218620
And your opinion John C, I find very odd. Can you show me similar US special forces training? Do you really not see the purpose of this training?

[john c]

Hi friends,
I'm from Bulgaria. I'm not a troll as implied by other users. We discuss this topic in Bulgarian forums as well.
http://thegunman-bg.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=17381&p=218620#p218620
And your opinion John C, I find very odd. Can you show me similar US special forces training? Do you really not see the purpose of this training?

Welcome to the forum. I appreciate other viewpoints from around the world.

Assuming this training is with actual live ammunition, and not simunitions or similar non-lethal training ammo, the risk in the training outweighs the benefits.

Also, it appears that this training is, in fact, what we call a dog-and-pony show for VIPs, based on the bystanders in pavilions in the background. The amount of training necessary to have a flawless show is likely very scripted and therefore less useful than learning and applying principles to novel training scenarios.

Finally, I see no benefit to shooting live ammunition (again, assuming it's actually live) at targets a few inches away from the heads and bodies of fellow team members. Is this training, or just bravado on the part of the guys holding the targets and those shooting?

I agree with the other comment that this appears to be range kata. That's not indicative of real mastery. Also, time screwing around with learning these scripted scenarios is time away from learning real mastery. It looks good on TV, but what is the real world result?

I have no knowledge of US special forces training. The very limited tactical training I do with a team involves the application of flexible techniques, mostly problem solving, to scenarios we're likely to encounter. It's more fluid and principle based, to account for ambiguous situations. A lot of the training we do focuses on communication. There are very few, if any, rote actions. Though it might look a lot lamer than those videos, it works for us.

To the extent we discharge weapons in training, we use simunitions for actual force-on-force training. Most of that training involves NOT shooting, rather than shooting.

I recognize that I don't work in a counter-terrorist role. If anything like that happened, and if I wasn't there when it kicked off, I'll be on the perimeter.

[Hambo]

Can you show me similar US special forces training?

Fortunately, no.

[TGS]

Hi friends,
I'm from Bulgaria. I'm not a troll as implied by other users. We discuss this topic in Bulgarian forums as well.
http://thegunman-bg.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=17381&p=218620#p218620
And your opinion John C, I find very odd. Can you show me similar US special forces training? Do you really not see the purpose of this training?

Poseidon,

The videos you presented looked more like demonstrations than actual training to me. There's really no intrinsic training value in what they were doing, as it was all very staged. I think John C is probably correct in his assessment that those vides were actually taken as part of an exhibition.

You won't find similar training being conducted in the US that I know of. At one point CAG was doing live fire room entries with a live person playing the role as hostage, but I'm not in CAG and have no idea if they are still doing it.

Most training in the US values decision making under stress, usually conducted as force-on-force, as opposed to showing off how you can hit a target that your buddy is standing next to. The latter is actually very simple and not advanced, and is more theatrics than anything else....it simply requires accepting a large amount of risk. That risk doesn't have any real benefit in the grand scheme of developing capability.

I could do those drills all day long 7 days a week, and it wouldn't make me any more capable at my job.


The very limited tactical training I do with a team involves the application of flexible techniques, mostly problem solving, to scenarios we're likely to encounter. It's more fluid and principle based, to account for ambiguous situations. A lot of the training we do focuses on communication. There are very few, if any, rote actions. Though it might look a lot lamer than those videos, it works for us.

This.

I'd like to point out that unlike Russia, we don't have a habit of killing the hostages and bystanders along with the assailants.

We call that a clue.

[John Hearne]

Can you show me similar US special forces training? Do you really not see the purpose of this training?

I am familiar with at least one military entity that does live fire snake drills with rifles as part of their instructor program.

I have some contrarian thoughts that I'll try to put together.

[TGS]

I am familiar with at least one military entity that does live fire snake drills with rifles as part of their instructor program.

I have some contrarian thoughts that I'll try to put together.

The snake drills didn't even register to me compared to the other stuff. We don't purposely do live fire snake drills for the sake of doing snake drills, but the same concept of muzzle discipline is exercised in our live fire immediate action drills during our basic agent course where we get people running past each other.

Some classes naturally have less capable people and never do it live fire, only dry, as I believe live isn't actually required by the curriculum.

Totally different IMO than shooting the edges of a target around someone standing behind it, or live fire demonstrations of a shield work. That stuff is just aggrandizing showmanship.

[modrecoil]

This isn't training. It's an exhibition/performance sponsored by the Kalshnikov Group that sells Kalashnikov, Baikal, and Izhmash brands.

I'm curious about the linked thread at the Bulgarian forum and Poseidon's thoughts on that "training" and our responses to it. It would be great if he participated on this forum, in my opinion. As a moderator on a big Bulgarian gun forum he probably has interesting perspectives.

I read Russian and Google helped with Bulgarian so I have a rough idea of what's being discussed but would be good to get it directly from the source. I had to include an especially funny Google Translate take on one of the paragraph below. Pretty sure it's their version of "mods here are shit". ;)


I fucked a shovel in response there ... and I gave a link from here ... but they browse before they release the post ...
And the topic is quarantined for 3 days ...There is no freedom there too!

[HCountyGuy]

I fucked a shovel in response there

I laughed way too damn hard at that...

The randoms that crop up here looking for praise or to start a fight are so much more amusing than PFestivus was.

Oh and Tom, that needs to be your signature, your title or a disclaimer posted under the General Discussion tab.

[Hambo]

The snake drills didn't even register to me compared to the other stuff.

Right. I've done live fire snake drills, and I understand why some think they are necessary and others think they are a bad idea. There have also been units who did live fire hostage rescue drills with live hostages. Often these were dog and pony shows for one reason or another, but they have more or less the same point as snake drills. Anyone is free to think it's all a bad idea.

[Hambo]

I fucked a shovel in response there ...

Now that...is manly.

[Gun Mutt]

I added a reference to it in the description of the Site-Supporter-only sub-forum:
33189
I just guffawed in my office loud enough to stop a conversation in the lobby. I'll be grinning for the rest of the day & most of tomorrow over this!

[HCountyGuy]

I added a reference to it in the description of the Site-Supporter-only sub-forum:

33189

Well I was actually referring to this:


[google translate]модераторите тук са глупости[/google translate]

But the shovel thing works too!

[Totem Polar]

I added a reference to it in the description of the Site-Supporter-only sub-forum:

33189

OMG... it hurts to laugh... I’m outta this thread! Too excellent/funny!

[Tamara]

I added a reference to it in the description of the Site-Supporter-only sub-forum:

33189

I love you, man. No hetero.

[Cypher]

Don't let this distract you from the fact that in 1966, Al Bundy scored four touchdowns in a single game while playing for the Polk High School Panthers in the 1966 city championship game versus Andrew Johnson High School, including the game-winning touchdown in the final seconds against his old nemesis, "Spare Tire" Dixon

[Joe in PNG]

For the OP, what possible purpose do these sort of flashy & dangerous stunts actually serve when it comes to teaching a person how to shoot the target faster and more accurately?

[Chemsoldier]

Perhaps their purpose it to make us realize that classes from behind the times instructors are merely behind the times? :p

[TDA]

Jesus Tom, how can we translate this experience into a poorly selling rashguard? We’re banging shovels here, I’ve got to think it’s going viral with 10th planet.

[Erik]

I love you, man. No hetero.

That's not how that works.

[DacoRoman]

Hello!
What do you think of such drills? Only combat bullets :) from intimate distances are used.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xObykrVBGD0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsIIyYWSfqU

I was born and grew up in Eastern Europe and I can attest that the mentality there can revolve around eccentric cheesy macho show off theatrics a little too much sometimes. Especially when Russians are involved :). Witness Systema and all sorts of “Spetsnaz” non sense. I’m Romanian by the way, we tend to be a little more low key ;). Russian Combat Sambo can be pretty cool though!

[idahojess]

Shoot, the Russians are just imitating the 1936 LA County Sheriff's Department...
(I know this video was posted before, but it's still pretty cool).


http://youtu.be/jDP8BRSEjrA

[YVK]

This isn't training. It's an exhibition/performance sponsored by the Kalshnikov Group that sells Kalashnikov, Baikal, and Izhmash brands.



You're absolutely correct, it is a demonstration. The second video voice narration, in the very beginning, very specifically states that the video is not about skills demonstration but showcasing the weapons.


Now, let me point out something. If you look at Russian Spetznaz videos from 10-20 years ago, you see mostly dudes rolling in the mud and swinging rifles around. Here in States the "representative" of those circles, Sonny Puzikas, was on History channel shooting on the move, holding a gun one handed with another hand free and walking on straight legs. These current videos, aside from the theatrics of a promo program, show as good of technical skill aspects as one can expect. Two handed handgun holds as modern as they come, seemingly pretty good recoil control, compact stances with long arms, extended support hands, no chicken wings, no magazine holds like they used to, smooth shoulder to shoulder transitions, very good movements. This stuff was unseen from even their top units in not too distant past. Add to it that, and I am talking Production division in the last World Shoot, they have the best and nearly untouchable practical woman shooter in the world, their best Production dude came within half point or 0.02% of a seven time US champ whose book, btw, was translated into Russian, and both gold and bronze juniors were Russians too, and we get a very obvious conclusion. Russians these days not only make guns, they also know how to run them very well.


They still don't rate for a free society with free gun rights.

[Poseidon]

This forum is very nice place for discussion.

Here are registered some of the best Bulgarian shooters.

The zlatnia_bg user told me about your forum and how big, famous and rich with information it is.

Let me tell you that many Bulgarians are studying and working in the USA and told me that the Americans are free-spirited people!

And so are Bulgarians. Greetings from sunny Bulgaria!

Yes, I am a moderator at thegunman-bg.com
my name is Filip Venev.

Opening this topic here is an experiment on how Americans will comment on it ... because in our Bulgarian forum we couldn't get to an agreement.

It will be tricky translating the text from there if Bulgarian is not your native language... :) or a Bulgarian person should translate it.

Long story short - we deleted the posts and locked the topic and the users began to complain about lack of freedom ...

I posted the topic in your forum to compare how the Americans behave and whether they will quarrel with each other ...

and I'm being ironic in our forum by saying that there is no freedom in the US forum - here's 3 days for a post ... :)) - just as they say about our forum

So I want to invite the temperamental BG users to curse on the American moderator see what will happen to them ... :)

ha ha we are a bit temperamental but everything is fine

I will post in our forum about this fiery snake to comment on it ...

We will share information between the two forums ...

I find really interesting the following - I don't think I should explain here who Larry Vickers is ... he is well known in Bulgaria by all our special forces officers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rI01qKAqYts&t=49s

what is he doing here with the Russians? Or does he train to kill detainees? Lol ... :)) or it's just another show?


I do not think so. I don't know how to say it in English ... mental fitness ...
meaning how to act under extreme stress?
Won't you get afraid in direct shooting and mess everything up?
That's what they're training.

I'm ready to bet that things like this are done in the United States live ... but they are not published ... there is not enough freedom of speech ... :))))

[Hambo]

I added a reference to it in the description of the Site-Supporter-only sub-forum:

33189

If we don't, who will?

[Tamara]

Shoot, the Russians are just imitating the 1936 LA County Sheriff's Department...


Yeah, we used to smoke while pregnant and dump toxic waste in rivers, too, but that doesn't make it a good idea.

[YVK]

Couldn't have been a better timing to illustrate my points mentioned in the above post. 23 years ago when I left that country this stuff didn't exist, like in zero presence. Now, less than 20 miles from my town, there is a world class indoors structure that some of our p-f'ers have gone to compete. Nothing theatrical about how these guys are shooting, eh?

Video is in Russian, basically it is a year long multi-match Cup with a finals that just ended. Wins are awarded for the matches and as a year-end cumulative result. Ben won his part of the final match by 20% over Momcilovic, says the video. Pretty damn impressive, considering just a 2% difference between the two at the World Shoot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKs9kyoE4vw&fbclid=IwAR3TE0Lr1w1fc6aUu-GmFEVm4XLlKDFDHPqAezaJjYxO6FbfZklMvvHvSgo

[TheNewbie]

How difficult is it to legally own guns in Russia?

[psalms144.1]

I spent about 10 days traveling through Eastern Europe with one of my former Principals. We visited, in turn, the Special Operations Forces of each country. Every one of them put on a dog and pony show, and every one of them included some variant of shooting a paper target while your team mate stood next to it, held it, etc. It was explained as "confidence building."

The best part was you could tell which teams my Principal trusted, as he would go down range and stand next to the target on some of the demos, not others...

I was most surprised when we had a similar UNANNOUNCED demonstration on the sniper range of a major ally's SOF training facility. We were getting an "overview" of the target array when a sniper in a hide fired a round over our heads, striking a "reactive" (explosive) target about 15 yards down range from where we were standing. All the Special Operators at least acted like it was no big deal. My outer perimeter guys were pretty freaked out, and it was one of the few times they went to guns in a friendly country until we got it all sorted out.

So, as much as I love to bash on the Russians, this is NOT a uniquely Russian exercise...

[YVK]

How difficult is it to legally own guns in Russia?

Worse than California or NY difficult.

A private person cannot own a handgun just 'cause. Gaming guns that we saw on that video are owned by clubs. I don't know if competitors can take them home or not to dry fire etc; I presume yes. I can't imagine they can get good as they are without it. If a person can prove the "need", he might be allowed to own a handgun. Proving the need requires at the minimum connections, but usually connections and money. I think that it is still not a private ownership, as most "need proofs" are "business-related" and guns are still owned by a business. Or you can buy anything you want on a grey market.

You cannot own a rifle unless you've owned a smoothbore for a number of years. Owning a shotgun requires an application process that involves photos, fees, police visiting your place, and doctor's statement. This info is current as of a couple of years ago.

[TheNewbie]

Worse than California or NY difficult.

A private person cannot own a handgun just 'cause. Gaming guns that we saw on that video are owned by clubs. I don't know if competitors can take them home or not to dry fire etc; I presume yes. I can't imagine they can get good as they are without it. If a person can prove the "need", he might be allowed to own a handgun. Proving the need requires at the minimum connections, but usually connections and money. I think that it is still not a private ownership, as most "need proofs" are "business-related" and guns are still owned by a business. Or you can buy anything you want on a grey market.

You cannot own a rifle unless you've owned a smoothbore for a number of years. Owning a shotgun requires an application process that involves photos, fees, police visiting your place, and doctor's statement. This info is current as of a couple of years ago.


Wow, that's rough!


How severely are the laws enforced, to your knowledge, against non criminals who buy on the grey market?

Thank you for your response.

[YVK]

I don't really know what's going on now. I left in mid-90s, it was a proverbial wild West then, or wild East, if you will. I don't know of any cases where people were nailed on gun charges alone. Criminals packed all the time. I was told that they carried a statement, refreshed daily, that they found that gun and were carrying it to police dept to surrender, which provided enough coverage during legal proceedings.

[TheNewbie]

I don't really know what's going on now. I left in mid-90s, it was a proverbial wild West then, or wild East, if you will. I don't know of any cases where people were nailed on gun charges alone. Criminals packed all the time. I was told that they carried a statement, refreshed daily, that they found that gun and were carrying it to police dept to surrender, which provided enough coverage during legal proceedings.

Gotta love corruption. I guess it can benefit you at times.

[Tamara]

So, as much as I love to bash on the Russians, this is NOT a uniquely Russian exercise...

"Confidence" or "Trust" drills are common in that corner of the world. For instance, it's not hard to find YouTube vids of balaclava-wearing Turks shooting targets their buddy is standing next to.

Still, when I see videos of people doing dumb stuff with guns, it's always a relief to turn up the volume and discover they're speaking foreignese and therefore unlikely to turn up on a range near me.

[TGS]

"Confidence" or "Trust" drills are common in that corner of the world. For instance, it's not hard to find YouTube vids of balaclava-wearing Turks shooting targets their buddy is standing next to.

Still, when I see videos of people doing dumb stuff with guns, it's always a relief to turn up the volume and discover they're speaking foreignese and therefore unlikely to turn up on a range near me.

Similar to the idiots stateside, I wonder if people overseas reference the "Hoot picture" and respond with, "This is my safety" as a way to justify their derp.

[Tamara]

Similar to the idiots stateside, I wonder if people overseas reference the "Hoot picture" and respond with, "This is my safety" as a way to justify their derp.

This is still my favorite rendition of that...

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