I Owe An Apology re the P30

[LockedBreech]

Someone posted a few months back about whether a P30 V1 LEM was close enough to a striker-fired trigger to train with it. A few people emphatically answered no. I opined that the triggers felt pretty similar in dry fire (light takeup, wall) and I think it would be fine.

I had my first real side-by-side range trip last week with my HK P30 V1 LEM versus my Smith & Wesson 2.0 9mm 4" compact and...no. They're not close. Not in the same ballpark.

Both ran without issue, I enjoy the solid feel of the P30, and I don't think I will get rid of it, but it runs much much slower than the M2.0 for me. Frustratingly slower. Very hard for me to get good shoot strings off. I don't know if that's something that improves with time.

Anyway, I was wrong, y'all were right. They are not the same trigger system at all. They're both light and there are similarities, but running them at speed the differences come out strong.

[GJM]

The P30 is an awesome pistol, and broke much of the ground for the VP9. A LEM trigger has many real world handling advantages, but comes at a cost of being able to achieve less performance for a given shooter ability than many striker SA. and DA/SA trigger systems. There is no free lunch, and only you can decide whether that trade off makes sense for your ability and use for a pistol.

[Duke]

I just acquired a P30L Light LEM and I freaking love it thus far.

Read the whole “why the P30” thread by EL and am now digesting Todd’s tests with it.

[LockedBreech]

I should clarify that I still really like the P30 and I think for real world purposes it might be a better gun. That slight delay between shots tended to make me a bit more accurate. For the purpose of stopping accidental shots/panic shots/thoughtless rapid fire I think it does amazing. It's arguably an ideal LE/Mil trigger.

[hufnagel]

yea... see sig.

[LockedBreech]

yea... see sig.

My reaction after reading those: Hey, I accidentally said something smart!

[JonInWA]

I found the same to be true with my HK P30L V1 LEM and VP40 (both in .40); same 4.5' trigger break point weight, but totally different action and trigger feel to get to the break. I like both; I still feel that the LEM provides a superb threat management trigger, but it's eminently easier and faster to use the VP40 in competition; a month or so ago I had one of my best IDPA results ever with the VP, and that was shooting it without any heavy use prior to the match-only some concentrated dry fire.

After concentrating on the P30L for six+ months, it was still more of a struggle in competition. And then I essentially just pick up the VP40 and clean house with it...

Doubtlessly, however, the LEM has made me a better shooter across the board. And I feel competent with it, but I'm now more likely to choose the VP or one of my Glocks when shootability is paramount.

Best, Jon

[Bere09]

Someone posted a few months back about whether a P30 V1 LEM was close enough to a striker-fired trigger to train with it. A few people emphatically answered no. I opined that the triggers felt pretty similar in dry fire (light takeup, wall) and I think it would be fine.

I had my first real side-by-side range trip last week with my HK P30 V1 LEM versus my Smith & Wesson 2.0 9mm 4" compact and...no. They're not close. Not in the same ballpark.

Both ran without issue, I enjoy the solid feel of the P30, and I don't think I will get rid of it, but it runs much much slower than the M2.0 for me. Frustratingly slower. Very hard for me to get good shoot strings off. I don't know if that's something that improves with time.

Anyway, I was wrong, y'all were right. They are not the same trigger system at all. They're both light and there are similarities, but running them at speed the differences come out strong.

I completely agree with this as it mirrors my experience, however I disagree with others saying that this trigger is a positive in any way. Any trigger that causes you to be less accurate or decreases performance in any way is not a positive. I'd much rather have a gun that I know I can hit with at any speed consistently. And I'm not talking about race gun triggers here. Stock Glock, VP9, Beretta 92, Px4, CZs... there are numerous other options. If you want to talk "threat management", there are plenty of DA/SA guns that don't hinder the shooters performance. I really think it's the HK fanboy-ism that sparks the "threat management" excuses for a trigger that is a detriment to performance.

[HCountyGuy]

I completely agree with this as it mirrors my experience, however I disagree with others saying that this trigger is a positive in any way. Any trigger that causes you to be less accurate or decreases performance in any way is not a positive. I'd much rather have a gun that I know I can hit with at any speed consistently. And I'm not talking about race gun triggers here. Stock Glock, VP9, Beretta 92, Px4, CZs... there are numerous other options. If you want to talk "threat management", there are plenty of DA/SA guns that don't hinder the shooters performance. I really think it's the HK fanboy-ism that sparks the "threat management" excuses for a trigger that is a detriment to performance.

I suggest you read Dagga’s well-thought-out reasoning in the benefits of the LEM trigger. (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?9457-Why-I-like-the-LEM-as-a-quot-street-trigger-quot)

I came from primarily shooting TDA Sigs and have found the LEM far more manageable than TDA. Granted there have been others whose experience with LEM runs counter to mine, but I certainly don’t see it as some hinderance. I’m by no means a high-level shooter, but there have been several who have run the LEM with no problems and within the same performance as other trigger systems. Yeah it’s not likely to win you a national title, but it’s not a gaming trigger. I’ve shot far more consistently with my P30 LEM than any other gun I’ve worked with, save one Glock 22 I could drive tacks with.

As for threat management, Dagga’s post linked above lays out the pros of the LEM for that role. He even provides an example of how the LEM made an OIS far simpler by not having to worry about de-cocking in the immediate aftermath of said shooting.

It’s one thing to speak negatively on the trigger because it doesn’t work for you, but to make such bold assertions it outright sucks for anything despite evidence to the contrary right here on this forum is asinine.

[Chuck Whitlock]

I fully agree with HCountyGuy

I have nearly shot someone with a Glock w/stock trigger system. As DB relates, the situation changed in the middle of the trigger pull.
I am now much more comfortable with DAO and Glocks with NY1 trigger springs paired with - connectors. On anything with a light, short, crisp trigger I want a manual safety.
I'd love to spend some time with a P30 or P30sk with the 4.1 LEM to see how it shakes out for me.

[Bere09]

I've read the article posted by Dagga. It's actually the reason I purchased the P30. I REALLY wanted to like that gun too. Tons of dryfire and practice with it to try and get competent. I finally realized I'd rather be able to hit what I'm aiming at, at speed, consistently. I don't think that threat management in general is invalid, I just think that are lots of guns out there that do it better and don't hinder the shooters performance as much as the P30. I do think that because it's HK, it gets a pass for a bad trigger. If it were a Glock or M&P or anything else, people would crap on it.

It didn't work for me, but I think you'll notice reading through the P30 thread that most people agree that their performance suffers. In some cases significantly so when using an LEM P30.

[HCountyGuy]

I don’t think the LEM is a crappy trigger, and I think many others will agree a TDA HK trigger sucks more than a Vegas hooker around the holidays. Folks around here aren’t afraid to call HK on a bad trigger, but the LEM is better than their TDA.

Yes others have relayed LEM didn’t work well for them, but that doesn’t mean it outright sucks. That’s like the striker-fired crowd saying TDA sucks because they can’t shoot the DA shot worth a flip. Just because it isn’t your cup of tea, doesn’t make it bad tea. LEM likely has fewer advocates than the other triggers out there, except maybe DAK and I think that sucks royally. Like anything else though, some people can run it like a sewing machine and others can’t hit the barn from inside with it.

Different strokes for different folks.

[MGW]

I have limited experience with a LEM and didn't even come close to mastering it but I think it can be mastered. There are far too many good shooters out there that are able to do some high level shooting with it for it to not be a legitimate system. It's not going to be a favored gamer trigger system, except by a few (Shawn Burrows is one that I can think of) but I believe it can be ran well.

Even though I'm not good with it I really appreciate the concept of the trigger. I want to be able to shoot a LEM really well because I would love to carry one. Unfortunately, I'm too impatient to stick with it long enough. For me, I think I could learn to run a LEM P30 if the take up to the wall was shorter and if the reset was a little shorter. I know that reset doesn't matter but with LEM the length of reset seems to add to my trouble running it. I get way to much trigger movement going back and forth and quickly lose any ability to maintain fast and accurate shots.

[RevolverRob]

My experience with the LEM is, I like it, a lot. But, I went TDA -> 1911 -> DAO revolvers -> DAO Semis -> LEM and I view running the LEM like running a DA revolver where you stage the trigger. Take-up, get it to the break, press through the wall, roll the trigger all the way out. That's maximum accuracy, for maximum speed roll through the trigger like a DA revolver.

I think TLG got the weighting of the springs right with the 4.1.

[Bere09]

I have limited experience with a LEM and didn't even come close to mastering it but I think it can be mastered. There are far too many good shooters out there that are able to do some high level shooting with it for it to not be a legitimate system. It's not going to be a favored gamer trigger system, except by a few (Shawn Burrows is one that I can think of) but I believe it can be ran well.

Even though I'm not good with it I really appreciate the concept of the trigger. I want to be able to shoot a LEM really well because I would love to carry one. Unfortunately, I'm too impatient to stick with it long enough. For me, I think I could learn to run a LEM P30 if the take up to the wall was shorter and if the reset was a little shorter. I know that reset doesn't matter but with LEM the length of reset seems to add to my trouble running it. I get way to much trigger movement going back and forth and quickly lose any ability to maintain fast and accurate shots.

I respectfully disagree with two points here.

1) There are VERY few shooters shooting the P30 in competition, and I feel pretty safe in saying that the number of really good shooters (M class or higher? GM or higher?) shooting it is pretty damn close to 0%. Competition shooters will shoot whatever gives them an advantage. I know this is going to bring out the "Gaming is different than the streets" crowd and I agree with that as well in some ways. But good shooters are good shooters and competition is probably the best vehicle we have for measuring that. Most guys that are good HK shooters are shooting a USP or the VP9 for a reason.

2) If the LEM had less take up to the wall and a shorter reset, it would be a Glock or M&P or Sig and people would be able to shoot it better. That's my point.

And reset 100% matters. :cool:

[MGW]

I respectfully disagree with two points here.

1) There are VERY few shooters shooting the P30 in competition, and I feel pretty safe in saying that the number of really good shooters (M class or higher? GM or higher?) shooting it is pretty damn close to 0%. Competition shooters will shoot whatever gives them an advantage. I know this is going to bring out the "Gaming is different than the streets" crowd and I agree with that as well in some ways. But good shooters are good shooters and competition is probably the best vehicle we have for measuring that. Most guys that are good HK shooters are shooting a USP or the VP9 for a reason.

2) If the LEM had less take up to the wall and a shorter reset, it would be a Glock or M&P or Sig and people would be able to shoot it better. That's my point.

And reset 100% matters. :cool:

1) There are more than you might think
2) No. They would still be nothing alike. Hammers 100% matter.

And reset doesn't matter much at all. I don't deal with it well on the P30 LEM though.

[RevolverRob]

Reset doesn't matter. It really doesn't. It doesn't matter with speed or splits or anything else.

There, I said it.

It doesn't matter, because when you select a system you train on that system and learn that reset. The problem crops up, when we try to shoot X system like we do Y system. They're different, don't treat them the same, they need to be treated differently.

You can change systems after awhile, but when you move to something new, you need to focus your mental concentration on that. It's why we don't recommend "rotations" that involve different trigger types. Some triggers are harder than others to master, some are harder for some people to master. Not everyone is wired the same way and perceives the same way and that's important to remember.

I'm a big fan of using what you feel is intuitive. Intuition tells you something, it tells you, "without all of the information, certain things still make a lot of sense", that's telling you something about how you perceive things and how you understand. When something "feels right", your brain allows you to connect the dots with less concentration than it does when something "feels wrong". It's not just a feeling, it's your brain giving you a signal, "If we do it this way, it makes sense and I can free up processing space for other things." Intuition is shaped by experience. So, bear this in mind.

In my experience, people who have a lot of trigger time on DA guns of some type (particularly revolvers) find the LEM much more intuitive than those converting from striker to LEM.

Reset doesn't matter in most contexts. It really doesn't. The fastest shooters in the world have no problem running guns with long resets. When you're gaming for dropped splits to push you between M and GM, then it matters more. But most folks can't shoot accurately enough, fast enough to be worried about things like resets. If you're not an A-class shooter knocking on Master classification - then I can almost guarantee your brain power spent on worrying about resets should be spent elsewhere, like getting more accurate hits on transitions or better at hitting partly obscured targets/zones/etc.

We give way too much brain power to "running the gun". Stop thinking about it and shoot the damn thing. It's a damn gun it's not rocket science. Get it out, find the front sight, cover the target with the front sight, press the trigger, make boom - find the front sight, cover the target with front sight, press the trigger, make boom - repeat until target is done and move on. It really is that simple.

[Bere09]

Reset doesn't matter. It really doesn't. It doesn't matter with speed or splits or anything else.

There, I said it.

It doesn't matter, because when you select a system you train on that system and learn that reset. The problem crops up, when we try to shoot X system like we do Y system. They're different, don't treat them the same, they need to be treated differently.

You can change systems after awhile, but when you move to something new, you need to focus your mental concentration on that. It's why we don't recommend "rotations" that involve different trigger types. Some triggers are harder than others to master, some are harder for some people to master. Not everyone is wired the same way and perceives the same way and that's important to remember.

I'm a big fan of using what you feel is intuitive. Intuition tells you something, it tells you, "without all of the information, certain things still make a lot of sense", that's telling you something about how you perceive things and how you understand. When something "feels right", your brain allows you to connect the dots with less concentration than it does when something "feels wrong". It's not just a feeling, it's your brain giving you a signal, "If we do it this way, it makes sense and I can free up processing space for other things." Intuition is shaped by experience. So, bear this in mind.

In my experience, people who have a lot of trigger time on DA guns of some type (particularly revolvers) find the LEM much more intuitive than those converting from striker to LEM.

Reset doesn't matter in most contexts. It really doesn't. The fastest shooters in the world have no problem running guns with long resets. When you're gaming for dropped splits to push you between M and GM, then it matters more. But most folks can't shoot accurately enough, fast enough to be worried about things like resets. If you're not an A-class shooter knocking on Master classification - then I can almost guarantee your brain power spent on worrying about resets should be spent elsewhere, like getting more accurate hits on transitions or better at hitting partly obscured targets/zones/etc.

We give way too much brain power to "running the gun". Stop thinking about it and shoot the damn thing. It's a damn gun it's not rocket science. Get it out, find the front sight, cover the target with the front sight, press the trigger, make boom - find the front sight, cover the target with front sight, press the trigger, make boom - repeat until target is done and move on. It really is that simple.

I completely agree with this statement and that's exactly why I'd argue that reset does matter. When the reset is significantly farther forward than the trigger break point, people do have to think about the reset and it hinders all of the other aspects of their shooting. Accuracy included. When the reset is at a point that is equal to the trigger break you don't have to think about it as much. You don't need to make sure you let the trigger out far enough to reset it or risk short stroking it. I say this as someone that lets the trigger all the way out on 90% of my shots, but when I'm really trying to shoot the gun fast, I've short stroked a gun on many occasions. It happens far more often with a P30 or a stock P-07 or 09 for example then with a Glock or Beretta or other CZs. Can you train around that? Sure. I think you can train around any trigger, but that doesn't mean it doesn't matter.

How much it matters in specific scenarios can be definitely be argued.

[MGW]

I’ve had trigger freeze on 1911’s shooting Bill drills. Is that because reset matters or because the shooter (me) did something wrong?

[Bere09]

1) There are more than you might think
2) No. They would still be nothing alike. Hammers 100% matter.

And reset doesn't matter much at all. I don't deal with it well on the P30 LEM though.

USPSA does an equipment survey every year at their National Championship match. Below is a breakdown of the firearm brands used by the competitors at the match. I selected Production Nationals because that's the division that someone shooting an HK would most likely compete in.

Firearm manufacturer:
CZ-USA 37%
Tangfolio 37%
Glock 12%
Sig Sauer 9%
Springfield 6%
Walther 6%

There were 230 competitors at that nationals. That means that 14 competitors shot Walther pistols out of 230. HK isn't even listed. I would be willing to guess that the number of competitors shooting HKs was in the single digits. Just a guess, but I'm comfortable with it. I can guarantee that no one in the top 20 shot HK pistols.

[Bere09]

I’ve had trigger freeze on 1911’s shooting Bill drills. Is that because reset matters or because the shooter (me) did something wrong?

Would you agree that you're less likely to have trigger freeze with a 1911 than you are with a P30?

Don't get me wrong, you can have trigger freeze with any pistol.

[HCountyGuy]

I think RR nailed it in that sometimes we overthink the minutae of shooting.

Going on to the whole reset matters/doesn’t matter:

It matters if you’re chasing splits and just trying to shoot. You’ll get no arguments there. This discussion of the LEM trigger wasn’t solely about splits though, it’s also entwined with threat management and getting off the trigger if the situation changes to a no-shoot. Yes it’s accomplishable with TDA, but the LEM doesn’t have to be de-cocked. Darryl made mention in the topic that even squared away folks might go through mental overload post-shooting and forget to decock.

Getting back to the reset, the reset on my P30 doesn’t seem that significant to me. Sure it’s not a Sig with a short reset kit installed, but it’s not unshootable at a high level by those who dedicate the time to master it. Look at Todd’s journals about the P30, he ran that pretty damn good. You can short-stroke any trigger if you’re pushing too fast. Is that a platform issue or a user issue?

If competition shooting/fast splits are your goal then yes the LEM isn’t going to win you any prizes. That’s by purposeful design. There are gunsmiths that can shorten the reset on a LEM if you want.

[RevolverRob]

[/B]

I completely agree with this statement and that's exactly why I'd argue that reset does matter. When the reset is significantly farther forward than the trigger break point, people do have to think about the reset and it hinders all of the other aspects of their shooting. Accuracy included. When the reset is at a point that is equal to the trigger break you don't have to think about it as much. You don't need to make sure you let the trigger out far enough to reset it or risk short stroking it. I say this as someone that lets the trigger all the way out on 90% of my shots, but when I'm really trying to shoot the gun fast, I've short stroked a gun on many occasions. It happens far more often with a P30 or a stock P-07 or 09 for example then with a Glock or Beretta or other CZs. Can you train around that? Sure. I think you can train around any trigger, but that doesn't mean it doesn't matter.

How much it matters in specific scenarios can be definitely be argued.

There was a great quote by Parnelli Jones (famous racecar driver for those who don't know), Parnelli raced in NASCAR, hill climbs, road courses, Indy, if it had four wheels and a steering wheel, over his 40+ year career he'd race it. When asked what his favorite racecar to drive of all time was his response was, "After awhile all the dashboards look the same."

Reset doesn't matter if you stop letting it all the way out 90% of the time and start letting it all the way out 100% of the time. In order to do that you have to treat shooting each gun as if its the same as the last one. (Hang on a minute, I'll come back to treating them differently in a second). When you start by running them all the same, you're focused on getting hits, not running the trigger. Once you're consistently getting hits at speed, letting off the trigger entirely...then you can start to focus on the nuances of each trigger. If you try to run before you walk or pick up a gun you've never shot before and start trying to run it like you do your best practiced platforms you'll get into trouble.

Here's an interesting challenge, try simply letting go of the trigger (1) and run splits focusing only on hitting the headbox on a USPSA target. Then compare that with letting it out all the way but riding the trigger (2). Then compare that with riding to reset (3). Most people aren't getting a significant difference between 1 and 2, let alone 2 and 3. If you are seeing a significant difference between 2 and 3, congratulations! You're now a statistical outlier in terms of shooting speed and skill (assuming of course that you're getting hits). Now, re-do the test transition between two targets, three targets, etc. When you're consistently cleaning the targets at the same speed riding the trigger all the way out, now add in riding to reset only.

Most people never get to that level. If you're consistently that level with your guns, then don't bother changing (it's not broken, leave it alone).

As for short strokes - You short stroke guns, when you're try to speed up your mechanics, thinking you'll shave time that way. The gains aren't worth it, if you don't have your mechanics nearly perfect otherwise. Your draws, your transitions, your speed to the first shot, your accuracy, etc. This is one of my chief complaints in gaming, that speed is over-compensated relative to accuracy. Sure we want to be fast and accurate, but actually we want to be accurate and then fast. Since most folks can't get hits at moderate speed, worrying about things like trigger reset is totally cart before horse.

[CCT125US]

Lots of thoughts running through my mind right now, but can't seem to organize them in an appropriate manner. Let me start with this. Lots of talk seems to center around reset and splits, and there is a time when those things are certainly important. Let me mention a recent, first hand account. Following a league event, a shooter mentioned I should try his custom CZ Shadow, as it would really help me win. It was all I had in me not to snark if he wanted beaten faster? Because you see, with his 2 lb trigger, and ability to probably split in the mid teens, his overall time was literally twice mine. He was simply unable to realize the potential of the gun. If the split time is holding you up in the particular game or scenario important to you, then by all means, discuss reset and length of trigger pull. There is a whole lot of ground to he made up before splits and reset matter for most folks. In the scenario mentioned, my limiting factor was the target size and the distance of transition, not the LEM trigger. Running .6 splits was enough to beat open class shooters, because they hosed, while I hit. HK is not known for fine triggers, some suck less than others for certain things. All triggers have pros and cons, figuring out the individual points of importance will vary based on desired outcome.

Flame suit on..

[Bere09]

There was a great quote by Parnelli Jones (famous racecar driver for those who don't know), Parnelli raced in NASCAR, hill climbs, road courses, Indy, if it had four wheels and a steering wheel, over his 40+ year career he'd race it. When asked what his favorite racecar to drive of all time was his response was, "After awhile all the dashboards look the same."

Reset doesn't matter if you stop letting it all the way out 90% of the time and start letting it all the way out 100% of the time. In order to do that you have to treat shooting each gun as if its the same as the last one. (Hang on a minute, I'll come back to treating them differently in a second). When you start by running them all the same, you're focused on getting hits, not running the trigger. Once you're consistently getting hits at speed, letting off the trigger entirely...then you can start to focus on the nuances of each trigger. If you try to run before you walk or pick up a gun you've never shot before and start trying to run it like you do your best practiced platforms you'll get into trouble.

Here's an interesting challenge, try simply letting go of the trigger (1) and run splits focusing only on hitting the headbox on a USPSA target. Then compare that with letting it out all the way but riding the trigger (2). Then compare that with riding to reset (3). Most people aren't getting a significant difference between 1 and 2, let alone 2 and 3. If you are seeing a significant difference between 2 and 3, congratulations! You're now a statistical outlier in terms of shooting speed and skill (assuming of course that you're getting hits). Now, re-do the test transition between two targets, three targets, etc. When you're consistently cleaning the targets at the same speed riding the trigger all the way out, now add in riding to reset only.

Most people never get to that level. If you're consistently that level with your guns, then don't bother changing (it's not broken, leave it alone).

As for short strokes - You short stroke guns, when you're try to speed up your mechanics, thinking you'll shave time that way. The gains aren't worth it, if you don't have your mechanics nearly perfect otherwise. Your draws, your transitions, your speed to the first shot, your accuracy, etc. This is one of my chief complaints in gaming, that speed is over-compensated relative to accuracy. Sure we want to be fast and accurate, but actually we want to be accurate and then fast. Since most folks can't get hits at moderate speed, worrying about things like trigger reset is totally cart before horse.

I’m not advocating riding the reset at all, however at a certain point you can only move your finger a certain distance so fast and you need to shorten that distance slightly if you want to shoot faster. If your reset is not equal to your break point, that hinders how fast you can shoot the gun. Even if we’re only talking about competition and nothing else, it does matter.

I disagree with you on your assessment of competition and the thought that speed is over-valued compared to accuracy. If you want to be good, you absolutely need to be fast and accurate.

We’re not going to agree on this and that’s totally fine. I love that there is a place on the internet for intelligent discussion and debate on the internet that doesn’t turn into a pissing match.

[Doc_Glock]

There were 230 competitors at that nationals. That means that 14 competitors shot Walther pistols out of 230. HK isn't even listed. I would be willing to guess that the number of competitors shooting HKs was in the single digits.

And of those shooting HKs I imagine zero were shooting the LEM.

I gave LEM an honest chance, but I did not learn to shoot it as well as a TDA or SFA. Maybe I could with a years work and 10,000 rounds but it just wasn't worth it to me to try.

[Bere09]

Lots of thoughts running through my mind right now, but can't seem to organize them in an appropriate manner. Let me start with this. Lots of talk seems to center around reset and splits, and there is a time when those things are certainly important. Let me mention a recent, first hand account. Following a league event, a shooter mentioned I should try his custom CZ Shadow, as it would really help me win. It was all I had in me not to snark if he wanted beaten faster? Because you see, with his 2 lb trigger, and ability to probably split in the mid teens, his overall time was literally twice mine. He was simply unable to realize the potential of the gun. If the split time is holding you up in the particular game or scenario important to you, then by all means, discuss reset and length of trigger pull. There is a whole lot of ground to he made up before splits and reset matter for most folks. In the scenario mentioned, my limiting factor was the target size and the distance of transition, not the LEM trigger. Running .6 splits was enough to beat open class shooters, because they hosed, while I hit. HK is not known for fine triggers, some suck less than others for certain things. All triggers have pros and cons, figuring out the individual points of importance will vary based on desired outcome.

Flame suit on..

One thing I’ve never mentioned in this thread is splits. I actually don’t think you need to split like crazy in order to be a good shooter, however splits do matter up to a certain point. I think if you’re splitting under .25 you can still make Master class with good fundamentals. One you’re splitting close to .18 or .2 I really don’t think it matters that much anymore. But the difference between 2 A zone hits at 10 yards at .6 and at .2 is huge. And make no mistake, good shooters can get 2 A zone hits in .2 seconds at 10 yards consistently.

You’re right that some people take speed way too seriously, but when you look at the results, those people aren’t good shooters anyway. The good shooters are going fast and getting their hits.

[Bucky]

1) There are VERY few shooters shooting the P30 in competition, and I feel pretty safe in saying that the number of really good shooters (M class or higher? GM or higher?) shooting it is pretty damn close to 0%. Competition shooters will shoot whatever gives them an advantage. I know this is going to bring out the "Gaming is different than the streets" crowd and I agree with that as well in some ways. But good shooters are good shooters and competition is probably the best vehicle we have for measuring that. Most guys that are good HK shooters are shooting a USP or the VP9 for a reason.


I ran a P30L for half a year in USPSA Production. It was a DA/SA version. and I managed to get the DA under 6 pounds. It's a fantastic firearm and way more accurate than my Glocks. That said, my primary production gun is a Shadow 2. It's a far superior competition gun. That said, I'd rather have the P30L in a combat situation. YMMV.

[vsdtrek]

I absolutely see why someone prefers a striker or even a DA/SA over the LEM. To me, I view it as a compromise (or should I say "no compromise" ;)?) between the two systems.

I'm a pretty novice shooter, only owning handguns since the start of 2012 and actually not being able to do so for about the last 2 years because of some shoulder surgeries. My first handgun was the DA/SA V3 P30 and picked up a USP LEM about two years later.

I used to really like the V3 before my surgeries. It made (and still does) a lot of sense on how to run. Finally being able to start back up, I didn't like that heavy pull and accidentally jerked a second SA shot off at the range after the first shot in DA. Never did that before. Nothing wrong with the system and certainly just rustiness on my part, but that was enough for me. I figure as I get older, I don't want to have to struggle with that really heavy pull. Used my USP exclusively after that and became a bit more familiar with the trigger. Sold the V3 and picked up a V1 last month.

I definitely understand and have recently experienced how a striker can potentially be easier and more fluid to shoot. Couldn't agree more. Why I went LEM for both models (vs looking at a VP9) is more for the first shot and the post-shot purposes should I unfortunately have to use it in a bad situation. I like that long and light concept and the way it resets to the long takeup should I stop after a shot. IMHO, I don't quite get the consistent striker but I also get a little better sense of safety if there is a round in the chamber. I don't quite get the first shot safety as a DA but I don't have to deal with the trigger. There's the compromise. In between, it takes a bit of focus, but I figure I will become more proficient in time with practice. Probably not to striker level, but I'm ok with that.

[Duke]

I’m back to concede a rapid and fervent defeat at the hands of a P30L LEM.


A switch from lem to a da/sa p30SK in the middle of a session today showed vast ability improved with the DA/SA.

For the life of me I can’t figure why. The v4 trigger spring resets more solidly and to the same point as the stock V3 gun. Who shoots what in competition isn’t a factor at all in my gear selection - but I am quite let down by my own performance with the LEM.

I’m left with a very positive impression of my capability with even the shortest 2 finger grip mag in the SK. Similarly shooting the long slide smooth trigger p30L so poorly really gives me pause.

[GJM]

The hybrid match LEM in the full size USP/Expert is the only LEM that I shoot as well as a DA/SA HK. In the P30 and USP C, the DA/SA is just much easier for me to manage than LEM. YVK has a very sweet P30 LEM worked over several times by GGI, with the trigger work costing as much as a new pistol that is USP like in quality.

As I said previously, the LEM is a fine trigger, it is just that I get less performance for my ability level with it.

[Doc_Glock]

As I said previously, the LEM is a fine trigger, it is just that I get less performance for my ability level with it.

Concur. And I don’t know why, which is most annoying.

[Eric_F]

I'll add one more note of agreement. I carry my P30 light LEM and have every faith in it for that role. Also for home defense, if my wife had it and mistook me for a criminal (might sound unlikely, but may be more likely than an actual home invader), there's no other trigger I would rather she was using.

I shot USPSA and 3 Gun for a year, and it worked but when I switched to my Tanfoglio Stock III I just rocked. Granted, that's also a big heavy gun to soak up recoil and better sights, but the trigger was a big part of that too. The P30 was excellent training for trigger control but not ideal for competition.