AR Malfunction?

[nalesq]

I just experienced a strange malfunction while shooting an AR and was wondering if anyone had any idea how something like this happens:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181206/3e284535f3299be5adab733a218c51d8.jpg

The round is pretty well stuck between the bottom of the charging handle and the top of the bolt carrier group.

Any tips on how to clear this before I risk breaking something doing it the wrong way would also be appreciated.





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Olim9]

https://www.instagram.com/p/BmJHyLPhLIo/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=1h7by7vzafkuv

Mike Pannone also has some good videos on YT that cover clearing AR malfunctions. Hopefully this helps, it happened to me a couple of times

[ASH556]

I just experienced a strange malfunction while shooting an AR and was wondering if anyone had any idea how something like this happens:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181206/3e284535f3299be5adab733a218c51d8.jpg

The round is pretty well stuck between the bottom of the charging handle and the top of the bolt carrier group.

Any tips on how to clear this before I risk breaking something doing it the wrong way would also be appreciated.





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Wow, that's like the opposite of bolt override = bolt underride. Did this happen while firing or while dicking around doing something else? If while firing, the only thing I can figure is worn/broken magazine feed lip. As the bolt came forward to pick up the next round, the round moved forward and popped free of the worn/bent/broken lips and the bolt caught it above itself.

As far as how to clear it, pop the takedown pins and see if you can slide the upper up and forward and/or reach into the ejection port with something stout like a ratchet handle and press rearward on the bolt. Maybe even tap it with a hammer just to free up the bind.

[Mike C]

https://www.instagram.com/p/BmJHyLPhLIo/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=1h7by7vzafkuv

Mike Pannone also has some good videos on YT that cover clearing AR malfunctions. Hopefully this helps, it happened to me a couple of times

This is the video you're thinking of, one of the best explanations of bold override clearance I've ever seen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlqHYW17zok

[TGS]

Wow, that's like the opposite of bolt override = bolt underride. Did this happen while firing or while dicking around doing something else? If while firing, the only thing I can figure is worn/broken magazine feed lip. As the bolt came forward to pick up the next round, the round moved forward and popped free of the worn/bent/broken lips and the bolt caught it above itself.

As far as how to clear it, pop the takedown pins and see if you can slide the upper up and forward and/or reach into the ejection port with something stout like a ratchet handle and press rearward on the bolt. Maybe even tap it with a hammer just to free up the bind.

That's exactly what bolt override is, at least as I've been taught it.

No need to take the gun apart and use tools. Remove the mag and lightly mortar the gun while holding pressure on the charging handle (or whatever preferred method is to create space between the bolt/cartridge/CH, then slap the charging handle forward.


https://www.instagram.com/p/BmJHyLPhLIo/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=1h7by7vzafkuv

Mike Pannone also has some good videos on YT that cover clearing AR malfunctions. Hopefully this helps, it happened to me a couple of times

If "Jon Mocha Bear" thinks mortaring the gun is "stupid" and "you're going to break your fucking stock", then I question how much quality time he's actually spent on the gun or if he just likes to hear himself sound cool.

[ASH556]

Man, you guys may be totally right. I always thought this was bolt override:

33030

[Mike C]

No Sir that is a failure to feed.

[TSH]

I just experienced a strange malfunction while shooting an AR and was wondering if anyone had any idea how something like this happens:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181206/3e284535f3299be5adab733a218c51d8.jpg

The round is pretty well stuck between the bottom of the charging handle and the top of the bolt carrier group.

Any tips on how to clear this before I risk breaking something doing it the wrong way would also be appreciated.





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

As TGS stated, the fix is to mortar the rifle. The way I do it is to collapse the stock, watch the muzzle direction, and bring the stock down on your thigh or the ground while you pull on the charging handle. Don't land on the toe of the stock or forget to collapse it or you will possibly bend the buffer tube and cause the bolt to seize in the tube with every shot. Of course, if you don't immediately need the rifle you could probably find a gentler way to clear it, but that's the way I was taught. It has never failed to work.

I can't seem to fix that one without cutting my hand somewhere on the charging handle, but I've never figured out where...

[nalesq]

Thanks for all the advice, which made me dimly realize that at some point in the distant past I was shown how to deal with bolt override, but it happens so rarely, I had simply forgotten about it.

A little vigorous mortaring and slapping the charging handle forward, rinse and repeat, and eventually the round indeed shook loose.

I do still wonder how it happened, though. I’ve seen metal mags spew rounds like a brass fountain when the lips go (and I know some mags, like Colt 9mm SMG mags, are a bit sensitive to this phenomenon), but I was using a Pmag when this happened while shooting (versus slapping in a reload), and it appears to be fine.

Or at least the lips don’t have any visible cracks, and I had thought that as long as the lips aren’t cracked on a Pmag, it should still be good to go.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[StraitR]

No need to mortar if it's not urgent. Even when done correctly, mortaring has the potential to break things (like stocks, RE's, and charging handles). Take a multi-tool, or screwdriver, or anything other than your knife, put it in front of the bolt face and push the bolt back. Round should fall right out.

[Drang]

That's exactly what bolt override is, at least as I've been taught it.

No need to take the gun apart and use tools. Remove the mag and lightly mortar the gun while holding pressure on the charging handle (or whatever preferred method is to create space between the bolt/cartridge/CH, then slap the charging handle forward.
The one bolt override I ever had to deal with, less than a year before retiring, I didn't even consider mortaring because the frigging firing line was full of REMFs, and my range safeties were a bunch of warrant officer pilots. That was the range I kicked my company commander off of...
/noshitthereiwas

/digression

[Mike C]

No need to mortar if it's not urgent. Even when done correctly, mortaring has the potential to break things (like stocks, RE's, and charging handles). Take a multi-tool, or screwdriver, or anything other than your knife, put it in front of the bolt face and push the bolt back. Round should fall right out.

That's exactly why I dig Mike Pannone's method. Works like a charm, no tools needed, no risk of damage to your weapon. My own personal anecdote, despite only having one optic break on me during my time of service I still don't like to slam shit around knowing that one, electronic shit breaks and two, zero's can shift and I prefer to be able to hit what I am aiming at. Obviously the urgency of a situation can dictate methods but save the extreme for the most dire of circumstances. It bears repeating no matter how bomb proof your weapon/optic combo is it can still break and then you are SOL. Just because you can abuse something doesn't mean you should.


The one bolt override I ever had to deal with, less than a year before retiring, I didn't even consider mortaring because the frigging firing line was full of REMFs, and my range safeties were a bunch of warrant officer pilots. That was the range I kicked my company commander off of...
/noshitthereiwas

/digression

That must've been back in the day when NCO's were allowed to do their job and it wasn't a risk of loosing your career over doing the right thing, (not like I ever GAF). Nowadays they'd probably NJP your butt or court-martial you for booting the CO, too many ninnies who get their feelings hurt these days.

[Drang]

That must've been back in the day when NCO's were allowed to do their job and it wasn't a risk of loosing your career over doing the right thing, (not like I ever GAF). Nowadays they'd probably NJP your butt or court-martial you for booting the CO, too many ninnies who get their feelings hurt these days.

Well, I was sort-of respectful about it...

This was in '99, BTW, and I had never been trained to deal with a bolt override.

[Lomshek]

Bolt over base is what I have heard that called as in bolt over the base of the cartridge.

That happens when the cartridge is jammed up between the bolt and the charging handle because the charging handle was in the forward position while the bolt was cycling rearward and the mag vomited a round straight up at just the right moment (heck if I know why) for the now forward traveling bolt to get the base of the cartridge wedged between the charging handle "stem" and the bolt.

Usually yanking on the charging handle makes it worse by jamming the case harder above the bolt and wedging the whole mess in tight.

The fix Panone shows at 1:30 in this video (https://youtu.be/qlqHYW17zok) that Mike C linked is similar to what I've seen work the easiest.

Use your finger, stick, blade or other suitable object in the ejection port or magwell to press the bolt to the rear. That takes the tension off the case and lets it fall out from above the bolt. If you made the mistake of operating the charging handle and jamming the case in harder it'll take more force to push the bolt back and free the case. In that situation doing like Panone shows and whacking the charging handle forward while pushing backwards on the bolt will do the trick.

In either case expect it to take some effort to get the bolt moving initially.

[rob_s]

Usually yanking on the charging handle makes it worse by jamming the case harder above the bolt and wedging the whole mess in tight.

The fix Panone shows at 1:30 in this video (https://youtu.be/qlqHYW17zok) that Mike C linked is similar to what I've seen work the easiest.

Use your finger, stick, blade or other suitable object in the ejection port or magwell to press the bolt to the rear. That takes the tension off the case and lets it fall out from above the bolt. If you made the mistake of operating the charging handle and jamming the case in harder it'll take more force to push the bolt back and free the case. In that situation doing like Panone shows and whacking the charging handle forward while pushing backwards on the bolt will do the trick.

Unfortunately that mistake is generally part of the TTP of immediate action (tap, rack, bang, or whatever), prior to going to the remedial action.

[WobblyPossum]

I’m also not a fan of the mortaring method. I vastly prefer the Mike Pannone method. I’ve only had this happen to me once during live fire. At the time I had not seen Pannone’s method and I mortared the rifle. I cleared the malfunction but snapped the USGI buttstock. Since learning Pannone’s method I haven’t encountered a brass over bolt malfunction in live fire but I have set it up several times to practice or share the clearing method with others. It’s simple, required no tools, and doesn’t risk damaging the gun.

I also send people this video of Pannone explaining the malfunction and the clearance procedure if they haven’t seen the malfunction before: https://youtu.be/jCXwoK28Oj8

I like it a little better than the previously linked video because it’s filmed closer up.

[TGS]

FWIW, there's no need to be slamming the rifle hard when mortaring to clear a bolt override. I don't know why people do this....I'm not sure where it came from, but I see youtube videos of people going ape shit on the ground with their gun when mortaring as if they're trying to kill a commie.

You shouldn't be applying enough force to break the stock, and you shouldn't be applying the force to the toe to begin with. If you've got any quality stock other than a legacy mil-spec M4 stock, it's even less of a concern. It's really more of a sharp tap, as if you're trying to crack a walnut with the stock but not send the pieces flying everywhere and completely destroy your snack.

We practice this in our classes as work. The pool rifles at the training center (with legacy mil-spec M4 stocks) get this done to them multiple times a month, pretty much every month out of the year. They're not breaking stocks left and right.

ETA: Mortaring will also work effectively regardless of how hot your bolt is. I highly doubt anyone is going to hold a direct impingement bolt to the rear using their fingertip after a few mag dumps, which is our most likely scenario for long gun use.

[rob_s]

FWIW, there's no need to be slamming the rifle hard when mortaring to clear a bolt override. I don't know why people do this....I'm not sure where it came from, but I see youtube videos of people going ape shit on the ground with their gun when mortaring as if they're trying to kill a commie.
true, but those videos may also be someone trying to clear a stuck case, which *can* require repeated and pretty hard strikes.


ETA: Mortaring will also work effectively regardless of how hot your bolt is. I highly doubt anyone is going to hold a direct impingement bolt to the rear using their fingertip after a few mag dumps, which is our most likely scenario for long gun use.
Yeah, I can't personally see sticking a finger in there, but I suppose if someone is shooting at me, and I'm using my carbine to defend myself, and I don't have a pistol, and can't run away and hide somewhere... no yeah I can't see using a finger.

I kept first a Strider knife on my chest rig (when I was trying to be cool) and later a Leatherman and just used those.

[Clusterfrack]

I separated the pad of my trigger finger sticking it in the breach of an auto shotgun. It was a fucking bloodbath. Fortunately, I still have some feeling in my trigger finger.

I DO NOT RECOMMEND STICKING YOUR FINGER IN THE BREACH OF A GUN.

[Drang]

I separated the pad of my trigger finger sticking it in the breach of an auto shotgun. It was a fucking bloodbath. Fortunately, I still have some feeling in my trigger finger.

I DO NOT RECOMMEND STICKING YOUR FINGER IN THE BREACH OF A GUN.

This is why I was willing to pay big bucks for the Leatherman MUT tool, which has a hook specifically for dealing with a bolt override on an M16/M4/AR15, and is the only specialized multi-tool I can conceive of owning. (Being neither EOD nor a medic.)

[Lomshek]

Unfortunately that mistake is generally part of the TTP of immediate action (tap, rack, bang, or whatever), prior to going to the remedial action.


Yep I was thinking in terms of being able to observe through the ejection port first to determine the problem. That doesn't work as well outside of square range daytime shooting which is all my frame of reference is from.

Pannone's video that Dan M posted and your post made that click for me that the fix needs to be applicable after having fired enough rounds that you don't want to touch the bolt with your finger or in the dark.

[nalesq]

Unfortunately that mistake is generally part of the TTP of immediate action (tap, rack, bang, or whatever), prior to going to the remedial action.

That’s exactly what I did as well, before realizing the nature of the malfunction. I automatically did a tap rack, and when that didn’t work, automatically tried locking the bolt to the rear, like you would to clear a double feed. Then, I guess a part of my brain thought that the case was somehow stuck in the chamber, and so with virtually no conscious thinking, I went straight to mortaring, which of course alone did not work, either.

That’s when I actually looked into the ejection port, realized something relatively unusual had happened, and snapped the photo in the original post.





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Mike C]

TGS, no argument mortaring works. You're right about not having to go ape shit either but there are other considerations mentioned to include, zero's on optics and damaging buffer tubes. If I have the option to not mortar the gun then I won't, having deployed more than a few times and carrying only one weapon and not having another readily available I'd opt for any option that would not cause my weapon to possibly be inoperable or risk fucking my zero because shit happens.


I separated the pad of my trigger finger sticking it in the breach of an auto shotgun. It was a fucking bloodbath. Fortunately, I still have some feeling in my trigger finger.

I DO NOT RECOMMEND STICKING YOUR FINGER IN THE BREACH OF A GUN.

This is would not have been an issue in any unit I've ever been in as gloves were mandatory just as eye pro was. Nomex flight gloves, (which were the issued glove) have a leather skin on the palm and finger area so there is enough protection for the second or two it takes to clear the malfunction. Besides when the chips are down and you need to fix you weapon you won't GAF. I'm not saying there won't be consequences or it won't hurt like an SOB but getting your weapon into action will be your only priority. If you're Joe Schmo on the range then that's another story by all means beat your gear to death if you want but there is nothing wrong with having more techniques at your disposal and being competent with them.

[karmapolice]

https://youtu.be/JJclYmTYVF4

Here is the way I learned from Direct Action Resource Center that I like because it is simple and works. Mortaring is
generally for a failure to extract due to a stuck case and if you do don’t forget to close the butt stock. Also check your muzzle after this to make sure there is no obstruction.

AT

[Mike C]

karmapolice I dig it, thanks for the video.

[LOBO]

I found these two articles by Pat to be informative,

https://www.swatmag.com/article/malfunction-reduction-stay-fight-part/

https://www.swatmag.com/article/malfunction-reduction-stay-fight-part-2/

[JDD]

I separated the pad of my trigger finger sticking it in the breach of an auto shotgun. It was a fucking bloodbath. Fortunately, I still have some feeling in my trigger finger.

I DO NOT RECOMMEND STICKING YOUR FINGER IN THE BREACH OF A GUN.

For some reason the "incident" forms that our occupational health and safety officer has to file after any workplace injury are not well set up to deal with situations like: fingertip partially removed by AK47 bolt when student released the charging handle while I was clearing the line with a physical and visual check."

I would give an enormous amount of money to see how that was received at the headquarters safety element of our overwhelmingly non-firearms focused organization.

[JMS]

Holy crow....

Pull back on the charging handle REALLY hard, then press on the catch part of the bolt catch REALLY hard to keep everything where you wedged it, then give the back of the CH a sharp judo-chop.

The hard pull tightens everything up, the bolt catch holds it all in place, and since the CH has room to move forward (independently of the bolt), hitting it subsequently hits the stuck round from behind, launching it forward and out the mag well, or at least unwedges it so you can clear it via common method of cycling the action.

If you don't push REALLY hard on the bolt catch before judo-chopping the CH, the bolt might shift enough to queer it all up, again, so really PUSH on the catch before knocking the CH forward.

You're doing effectively the SAME thing shown in Clusterfrack's cited video, but without the need to reach for anything you aren't already holding, and no putting anything in the ejection port, digits or otherwise.

Mortaring Type Ate malfunction...good grief, has TRYING to break the front end of your CH has suddenly become a desirable outcome...? I dunno, you crazy kids with your pants and your rock-n-roll.....

[Sigfan26]

Holy crow....

Pull back on the charging handle REALLY hard, then press on the catch part of the bolt catch REALLY hard to keep everything where you wedged it, then give the back of the CH a sharp judo-chop.


Amazing how soooo many overthink this. This is the best method.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mike C]

JMS you are more likely to booger something up mortaring than breaking your charging handle, (agreed). The CH is supported L/R, top and bottom between the upper receiver, gas key and BCG. I doubt you're just going to snap the front half of your CH that captures the BCG making it INOP. Lastly I looked back at the at everything that was posted and didn't find a video Clusterfrack posted. Are you referencing Karmapolice's video? If you are that method is definitely excellent. The only drawback I can see is that if you aren't using a USGI magazine with a sharp enough corner to retain the BCG it might be a little more work. I primarily use Pmags and the base pads aren't great for catching the shoulder of the BCG as shown by Karma's video. I've set this up and tried several times on a timer over the period of 1/2 hour. I think both methods have merit. I don't personally see myself changing as I have lots of reps with Pannones' method and I know it will work for me despite risks. Even thought I find the other method referenced quite excellent, has merit; it is magazine dependent on having ones that facilitate capturing the BGC shoulder easily.

In my 30 minutes of evaluating this the Lancers worked alright for this, the USGI were best, but the Pmags were the most difficult to ensure capturing of the shoulder on the BCG. If you're running gloves there is no issue with either method, OTOH if your bare handed Karma's technique would definitely be best so long and you aren't fiddlefucking with it because your mags don't have a pronounced enough corner to facilitate capturing of the BCG. All in all more tools in the tool box, I hate to say that crap but it is always good to have primary, alternate and tertiary methods for problems solving with minimal though processes. I wouldn't fret damaging the BCG using Pannones' method as much as I would be picking up zero or making the gun INOP with mortaring.

[JMS]

Are you referencing Karmapolice's video?

Yep, I mis-ID'd it, earlier.

[karmapolice]

JMS The only drawback I can see is that if you aren't using a USGI magazine with a sharp enough corner to retain the BCG it might be a little more work. I primarily use Pmags and the base pads aren't great for catching the shoulder of the BCG as shown by Karma's video.

The PMAG trick is to use the back of the feed lip area, it is way easier. I don't recommend doing it a lot because obviously it can damage the feed lips but in
the field it is an expedient use if running PMAGs. The bolt override or Type V or what ever you want to call it sucks and is generally caused by fiddling around with a type III (double feed) and not clearing it properly, aka not removing the magazine and tilting the ejection port outboard and continuing to run the charging handle.

[Mike C]

The PMAG trick is to use the back of the feed lip area, it is way easier. I don't recommend doing it a lot because obviously it can damage the feed lips but in
the field it is an expedient use if running PMAGs. The bolt override or Type V or what ever you want to call it sucks and is generally caused by fiddling around with a type III (double feed) and not clearing it properly, aka not removing the magazine and tilting the ejection port outboard and continuing to run the charging handle.

karmapolice I agree on all of the above. Solid points, I came to the same conclusion with using the back half of the feed lips on the spine of the mag when playing with the technique but decided its best not to, with my shit luck I'd break it off and somehow the piece of the mag would end up in my gun and tie it up further. Seriously though with the USGI mags I really do like this technique. Thanks for sharing it.

[KeeFus]

I teach Mike Pannone’s method.

In our patrol rifle class we set up various malfunctions, and the bullet-over-bolt malfunction is one of them.

One day I was acting as a Range Master at the range. Another agency was there running qualifications when one of the guys I’ve known awhile had this malfunction. He was told to torpedo the rifle and that’s what he did. It didn’t work. I walked over and asked the instructor if I could show the class how to clear the malfunction. He allowed me to so I walked him through it with about 15 cops watching. He started to shoot again and it happened again so he again fixed the problem. I kept wondering why he was having the issue until I noticed him loading his Pmags. He was fighting to get the rounds into the magazine and Somehow he was getting the rounds side by side in the magazine, which made two rounds come out into the gun instead of just one. I talked to him about it and told him the issue. One of the Instructors there balked at me then walked off telling the guy he needed to get another rifle. I gave him a properly loaded Pmag and watched him shoot 30 malfunction free rounds.

The instructor that was talking all the shit had to eat crow. The officer barely qualified because his nerves were shot after dealing with the malfunctions in front of a group of people and an uneducated “instructor” talking shit.

Two reasons for that little story. 1) find out why Your rifle is creating that malfunction and 2) if you’re an “Instructor”...BE an instructor. I get bent out of shape at people who can shoot well enough to get through Instructor school but act like a God after they get it.

Sorry for the drift.