Do rifle hollowpoints clog and fail, too? (Graphic, hunting images)

[Unobtanium]

Until a few weeks ago, I had never considered it. However, a friend of mine shot a small doe. He hit it pretty far back. The doe was 100% perfectly perpendicular to him (broadside). I witnessed the event and we agree.

The bullet was a 70gr 5.56 pressure GMX. Latest production. It entered very punctuate. Bloodshot meat around the entrance extended only 1.5" or so. The inside of the rib cage upon dressing, showed a small neat caliber size entrance with minimal disruption. However, the bullet made its way out of the deer quite near her front arm pit and left significant exit damage. I would say its trajectory deviated from "true" by maybe 8" in as many inches of penetration nearly. By all indications, it failed any expansion and tumbled.

Carbine was 16.1" barrel, deer was about 125 yards out.

Thoughts?



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[Duelist]

An old quote: “At what point, in the death of the animal, did the bullet fail?” Bullets can do weird things when they strike flesh, including veering off a straight track.

Good, appropriate bullets+good marksmanship=meat. That pic looks like meat that needs cutting.

Of course, rifle bullets can fail. Especially if your shooter had selected a 45gr HP instead of a 70gr GMX to shoot that doe with, he’d have seen very different bullet performance.

[GOTURBACK]

To my eye the bullet performed well a small entrance and devastating exit wound, how far did the animal go after being hit with it?

[John Hearne]

Thoughts?


Shooting living things is different from shooting gelatin.

Of bullets I've recovered, few looked like magazine ads.*

Part of the value of hunting is it helps you realize this.

*Except for the 55 gr Federal Bonded Tactical. It expanded perfectly, and still weight 55 grains.

[Unobtanium]

To my eye the bullet performed well a small entrance and devastating exit wound, how far did the animal go after being hit with it?

Mitght as well us FMJ then.

It lived for 10 minutes or so, ran, bedded, ran again, maybe 75 yards total. Way worse kill than any of mine. THIS is what I'm used to for entry/exit for 70gr GMX when it does as designed.

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[GOTURBACK]

Yeah I see the difference, did you have to gut that one? We are restricted to shotgun slug here and most of mine have dropped instantly, but I've had a couple run a short distance, placement is key.

[DocGKR]

Yes, even rifle bullets can fail to perform as expected or engineered, due to intermediate barriers, tissue density issues, projectile material problems, projectile production variances, poor projectile design, impact velocity outside of expected parameters, to name but a few causes.......

[GJM]

I once shot a cape buffalo in the chest at 50 yards with a perfectly placed 500 grain solid at 2,350 fps out of a 460 G&A, and it lifted the animal up and pushed him straight back a body length. At that point he got up and ran off, to continue to do battle with us for another 30 minutes. Anyone who has done a bunch of hunting has seen unusual things when it comes to how bullets interact with animals.

[Hambo]

He hit it pretty far back. The doe was 100% perfectly perpendicular to him (broadside).

Thoughts?

Tell him to learn to shoot better.

[WDR]

Shooting living things is different from shooting gelatin.

Of bullets I've recovered, few looked like magazine ads.*

Part of the value of hunting is it helps you realize this.

*Except for the 55 gr Federal Bonded Tactical. It expanded perfectly, and still weight 55 grains.

I recovered this handloaded 180gr .308" Nosler Accubond fired from my .30-06, from just under the far side hide of a cow elk, shot twice broadside at 424 yards. I think the first one was a complete pass through, though the hits were only inches apart. It's the only one I've ever recovered from all the elk, deer, or antelope I've shot with this load. It is almost always a complete pass through. I thought the performance was quite adequate, and about as good as Noslers advertising propaganda. I haven't found a reason to change bullets yet.

https://i.imgur.com/J3vHDw9.jpg

As far as the Hornady load in question, I've never been really satisfied with solid copper bullets like the GMX or TSX/TTSX... it seems like you have to keep the velocity higher to get good bullet upset and expansion. That is logical, but it seems that lead core bullets expand better at lower velocity than their all-copper/gliding metal counterparts. I just don't trust the mono-metal bullets to expand like lead core stuff. It seems like a minor difference in materials hardness or faulty construction can cause them to act more like solids (as it seems to show in your pictures), than expanding bullets. I don't think it has anything to do with the hollow point clogging... but I could be wrong (say the solid copper bullet impacts hard bone and collapses the tip).

I have use a 70gr TSX on deer before and it worked fine, and appeared to expand as intended. Nosler is supposed to be coming out with a 70gr .224" Accubond, and I am keen to try that bullet when it shows up. Though the various Gold Dot and Fusion loads/bullets probably offer similar performance.

[GJM]

Using .223 on deer strikes me as being either a stunt or a by product of MSR love, and I can’t imagine choosing .223 on deer for any other reason.

[GOTURBACK]

Using .223 on deer strikes me as being either a stunt or a by product of MSR love, and I can’t imagine choosing .223 on deer for any other reason.

Exactly what I was thinking, rifles for hunting big game in the state I live in must be .24 caliber or larger.

[littlejerry]

Exactly what I was thinking, rifles for hunting big game in the state I live in must be .24 caliber or larger.

Depends on the state. In GA our deer are small, and ranges are short. 223 works surprisingly well with the right projectile. It's not forgiving of bad shot placement or shooting through brush.

If you are willing to live within it's limits it'll work just fine.

I originally used 223 to hunt because it was my best option as a poor college student and I didn't have the cash to go buy a dedicated hunting rig. 15 years later and I still don't need a larger caliber for deer.

My only want for a bolt gun is so I can play at 1000 plus yards and hunt out west.

[John Hearne]

Using .223 on deer strikes me as being either a stunt or a by product of MSR love, and I can’t imagine choosing .223 on deer for any other reason.

As noted above, Deep South deer are small. I've shot two deer and at least a dozen hogs with 5.56. I've always used premium ammo and placed the shots well. Everything I've shot has been suitably impressed. Neither of the deer moved more than 10 yards after being shot. If you keep the bullet in the heart/lungs it may not exit but it looks like a grenade went off inside the chest.

[Lester Polfus]

Using .223 on deer strikes me as being either a stunt or a by product of MSR love, and I can’t imagine choosing .223 on deer for any other reason.

Depends on what you mean by "deer." A 62 grain Partition out of a 16" AR was decisive on 120 to 140 lb Oregon Blacktails so it certainly was "enough gun." I would have used a different choice on the big ole corn fed bucks where I grew up in Appalachia. If somebody tells you they shot one that weighed 300lbs back there, they're probably lying, but if they say 250lbs, there's a good chance they aren't.

[GJM]

Perfect angle, perfect shot, seems like an appropriate .223/5.56 projectile will get the job done on smaller deer. A larger diameter, heavier bullet gives me more options on angles, which can come in handy on a big trophy, or following up on a wounded animal.

I get the appeal of hunting with your AR, but if I am running a bolt gun, it will be in a larger caliber.

[littlejerry]

As noted above, Deep South deer are small. I've shot two deer and at least a dozen hogs with 5.56. I've always used premium ammo and placed the shots well. Everything I've shot has been suitably impressed. Neither of the deer moved more than 10 yards after being shot. If you keep the bullet in the heart/lungs it may not exit but it looks like a grenade went off inside the chest.

The vast majority of my deer have had the bullet pass all the way through. Even the 77gr TMK I tried this year exited(although it was only 50 yards). Too much frag and ruined meat though. I'm going back to Gold Dots.

[Lester Polfus]

Perfect angle, perfect shot, seems like an appropriate .223/5.56 projectile will get the job done on smaller deer. A larger diameter, heavier bullet gives me more options on angles, which can come in handy on a big trophy, or following up on a wounded animal.

I get the appeal of hunting with your AR, but if I am running a bolt gun, it will be in a larger caliber.

The whole "deer with a .223" thing is pretty well trod ground. Answers fall into two camps: folks who think it's nowhere near enough, and folks who post pictures of themselves next to a dead deer while holding a .223 rifle. I think my pictures of that are all on old-fashioned film, or I'd do it. I saw plenty taken with a .223, including less than perfect shots, with no major drama. They were all within 150 yards, and most well within 100, so essentially I wouldn't hesitate to use a .223 on a deer at any range I would also use a .30-30. If I lived in Montanna? Different answer.

I guess what confuses me about this argument is that folks depend on .223 as a defensive cartridge, but won't hunt deer with it.

[Unobtanium]

I recovered this handloaded 180gr .308" Nosler Accubond fired from my .30-06, from just under the far side hide of a cow elk, shot twice broadside at 424 yards. I think the first one was a complete pass through, though the hits were only inches apart. It's the only one I've ever recovered from all the elk, deer, or antelope I've shot with this load. It is almost always a complete pass through. I thought the performance was quite adequate, and about as good as Noslers advertising propaganda. I haven't found a reason to change bullets yet.

https://i.imgur.com/J3vHDw9.jpg

As far as the Hornady load in question, I've never been really satisfied with solid copper bullets like the GMX or TSX/TTSX... it seems like you have to keep the velocity higher to get good bullet upset and expansion. That is logical, but it seems that lead core bullets expand better at lower velocity than their all-copper/gliding metal counterparts. I just don't trust the mono-metal bullets to expand like lead core stuff. It seems like a minor difference in materials hardness or faulty construction can cause them to act more like solids (as it seems to show in your pictures), than expanding bullets. I don't think it has anything to do with the hollow point clogging... but I could be wrong (say the solid copper bullet impacts hard bone and collapses the tip).

I have use a 70gr TSX on deer before and it worked fine, and appeared to expand as intended. Nosler is supposed to be coming out with a 70gr .224" Accubond, and I am keen to try that bullet when it shows up. Though the various Gold Dot and Fusion loads/bullets probably offer similar performance.

A friend of mine did some testing on wet packs. Here are the results:

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[Unobtanium]

The whole "deer with a .223" thing is pretty well trod ground. Answers fall into two camps: folks who think it's nowhere near enough, and folks who post pictures of themselves next to a dead deer while holding a .223 rifle. I think my pictures of that are all on old-fashioned film, or I'd do it. I saw plenty taken with a .223, including less than perfect shots, with no major drama. They were all within 150 yards, and most well within 100, so essentially I wouldn't hesitate to use a .223 on a deer at any range I would also use a .30-30. If I lived in Montanna? Different answer.

I guess what confuses me about this argument is that folks depend on .223 as a defensive cartridge, but won't hunt deer with it.

This. There is a logical disconnect. If you trust 5.56 to stop a violent 200# man with a firearm from killing you in the next few seconds, but don't trust it to kill a 150# deer inside a sensible timeframe/100 yards? Well...

Anyway, here is my 8pt buck I shot with 70GMX. it killed him dead. He ran 68 yards and piled up after leaving a blood trail Ray Charles could follow with his toes.
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[Unobtanium]

Perfect angle, perfect shot, seems like an appropriate .223/5.56 projectile will get the job done on smaller deer. A larger diameter, heavier bullet gives me more options on angles, which can come in handy on a big trophy, or following up on a wounded animal.

I get the appeal of hunting with your AR, but if I am running a bolt gun, it will be in a larger caliber.

Heavy clothing produces similar results to animal hide, I've read numerous times on this forum. So here, let's see what a 150gr bonded .308 load does...

http://www.le.vistaoutdoor.com/ammunition/speer/rifle/details.aspx?id=24457

Looks like 18" of penetration and 0.75" expansion.

http://www.le.vistaoutdoor.com/ammunition/speer/rifle/details.aspx?id=24475

75gr .223 looks like it manages 16.75" of penetration, and 0.57" expansion.

Obviously the .308 will be a bit more destructive, but we can also see above that the .223 expands and has enough KE to provide damage...but let me ask you about those angles again...what angle, exactly, are you counting on that extra 1.25" giving you that the .223 shooter will be denied?

[GOTURBACK]

This. There is a logical disconnect. If you trust 5.56 to stop a violent 200# man with a firearm from killing you in the next few seconds, but don't trust it to kill a 150# deer inside a sensible timeframe/100 yards? Well...

Anyway, here is my 8pt buck I shot with 70GMX. it killed him dead. He ran 68 yards and piled up after leaving a blood trail Ray Charles could follow with his toes.
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How much did he weigh? That looks like a fawn up here, I cannot speak from experience but I would guess a humans initial reaction is strikingly different than deer or other wild game when shot unless they are drt.

[Lester Polfus]

How much did he weigh? That looks like a fawn up here,

When I first moved to Oregon, I couldn't figure out why all the deer I was seeing were yearlings..

[Unobtanium]

How much did he weigh? That looks like a fawn up here, I cannot speak from experience but I would guess a humans initial reaction is strikingly different than deer or other wild game when shot unless they are drt.

People and animals act the same in my experience. If theyre mad or drugged, they move until BP drops or CNS is disrupted. Otherwise you just scared them into compliance.

That is a respectable 8 point, here. I do not know what he weighed. I deadlift 405 and frontsquat 315, and he was a real bitch to load onto the 4 wheeler, but he was also...dead...weight and had no knurling. My best guess is 145 ish. I loaded him myself by getting my hands under him while squatting, then rocking back and rolling him onto my forearms and frontsquatting him up and then onto the 4wheeler raear rack (which had a 6"lip). It was harder than id like to admit.

[Indy5000]

This was my buck from last year. Federal Fusion .223, 62 grain.

He was broadside at just under 100 yards and dropped right there.

All of our hunting on the family property (Texas Hill Country) is within 100 yards and we are confident we can ethically harvest our deer with that round.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181204/68d27a79158f4f2ac7fddc9c4a296195.jpg

[GJM]

Heavy clothing produces similar results to animal hide, I've read numerous times on this forum. So here, let's see what a 150gr bonded .308 load does...

http://www.le.vistaoutdoor.com/ammunition/speer/rifle/details.aspx?id=24457

Looks like 18" of penetration and 0.75" expansion.

http://www.le.vistaoutdoor.com/ammunition/speer/rifle/details.aspx?id=24475

75gr .223 looks like it manages 16.75" of penetration, and 0.57" expansion.

Obviously the .308 will be a bit more destructive, but we can also see above that the .223 expands and has enough KE to provide damage...but let me ask you about those angles again...what angle, exactly, are you counting on that extra 1.25" giving you that the .223 shooter will be denied?


Bullets sometimes do not perform as designed, and when they don’t, I would rather have a .30 caliber hole than a .22 caliber hole. I also would like to have the option of shooting a deer from behind and reaching vitals.

[littlejerry]

Bullets sometimes do not perform as designed, and when they don’t, I would rather have a .30 caliber hole than a .22 caliber hole. I also would like to have the option of shooting a deer from behind and reaching vitals.

I agree, that's another key difference. I would never take a shot from behind. I hunt for recreation, and a big part of that for me is harvesting the meat. I'd be concerned about ruining too much meat. Also, our season is 3 months long and our limit is 2 bucks and 10 doe. It's not like we draw tags to go hunt some trophy for a week or two. Letting a deer pass because the angle isn't right is no biggie.

[GJM]

I agree, that's another key difference. I would never take a shot from behind. I hunt for recreation, and a big part of that for me is harvesting the meat. I'd be concerned about ruining too much meat. Also, our season is 3 months long and our limit is 2 bucks and 10 doe. It's not like we draw tags to go hunt some trophy for a week or two. Letting a deer pass because the angle isn't right is no biggie.

If an animal is wounded, you may only have an unfavorable angle for a finishing shot. Buddy of mine just came back from two weeks of deer hunting on Kodiak, and he shot three deer that others had wounded. Ten years or so ago, I shot a wounded mule deer up the butt at 42 yards with a 329 and Garrett Defender ammo to finish him.

[Matt O]

Ten years or so ago, I shot a wounded mule deer up the butt at 42 yards with a 329 and Garrett Defender ammo to finish him.

I think I’d be opting for the gutless method on packing that guy out.


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[Unobtanium]

If an animal is wounded, you may only have an unfavorable angle for a finishing shot. Buddy of mine just came back from two weeks of deer hunting on Kodiak, and he shot three deer that others had wounded. Ten years or so ago, I shot a wounded mule deer up the butt at 42 yards with a 329 and Garrett Defender ammo to finish him.

The 70gr GMX gives me well over 20" of penetration if it expands correctly. If it doesn't, it will do what any rifle bullet does and tumble wildly.

[Wayne Dobbs]

This was my buck from last year. Federal Fusion .223, 62 grain.

He was broadside at just under 100 yards and dropped right there.

All of our hunting on the family property (Texas Hill Country) is within 100 yards and we are confident we can ethically harvest our deer with that round.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181204/68d27a79158f4f2ac7fddc9c4a296195.jpg

Holy shit, that's a nice Texas buck! Cool kicker, too.

[TCFD273]

This was my buck from last year. Federal Fusion .223, 62 grain.

He was broadside at just under 100 yards and dropped right there.

All of our hunting on the family property (Texas Hill Country) is within 100 yards and we are confident we can ethically harvest our deer with that round.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181204/68d27a79158f4f2ac7fddc9c4a296195.jpg

Our ranch is a few miles South of Llano. I primarily use 5.56 as well, everything from hogs to Axis deer, never had an issue.

Last weekend I used 62gr TSX, dropped 7 hogs (4 were head shots), and 2 whitetail. The deer didn’t go more than 20yds, and were shot inside 150yds.




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[GJM]

Heavy clothing produces similar results to animal hide, I've read numerous times on this forum. So here, let's see what a 150gr bonded .308 load does...

http://www.le.vistaoutdoor.com/ammunition/speer/rifle/details.aspx?id=24457

Looks like 18" of penetration and 0.75" expansion.

http://www.le.vistaoutdoor.com/ammunition/speer/rifle/details.aspx?id=24475

75gr .223 looks like it manages 16.75" of penetration, and 0.57" expansion.

Obviously the .308 will be a bit more destructive, but we can also see above that the .223 expands and has enough KE to provide damage...but let me ask you about those angles again...what angle, exactly, are you counting on that extra 1.25" giving you that the .223 shooter will be denied?

Do you really think the difference between .223 and .308 is just 1.25 inches of expansion? As Bill Wilson told me fifteen minutes ago, he views .223 as a small deer, perfect conditions cartridge.

To your point on the similarities between animals and people, people may stop from noise, a peripheral hit, or a mortal wound. Animals that you hunt require a lethal wound, with that wound ideally delivered so you can recover them soon and close by.

[TCFD273]

Do you really think the difference between .223 and .308 is just 1.25 inches of expansion? As Bill Wilson told me fifteen minutes ago, he views .223 as a small deer, perfect conditions cartridge.

To your point on the similarities between animals and people, people may stop from noise, a peripheral hit, or a mortal wound. Animals that you hunt require a lethal wound, with that wound ideally delivered so you can recover them soon and close by.

As someone who uses 5.56 on TX deer, I absolutely agree 100% with Bill’s assessment.

Shot placement, and angles are king when using the 223. For me, it makes it more interesting, otherwise it’s shooting fish in a barrel on our ranch.




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[OlongJohnson]

Mono metal bullets provide more reliable expansion at higher impact speed, so in general, lighter mono metal bullets tend to be more reliable and faster killers than heavier mono metal bullets, up until penetration is compromised by the lightness. Look up the mechanical properties of 5% brass (gilding metal). It’s stronger and harder than annealed 100 percent copper.

Shoot a heavy for caliber gilding metal bullet in a small cartridge from a 16-inch barrel, and the chance of a result like the OP goes up. Put it in an appropriately twisted.22-250, and a lot of concern evaporates. The 50 or 55gr bullets would likely be a better choice for the cartridge/gun/game combo.

[littlejerry]

With the cost, availability, and performance of Fusion and Gold Dots, I don't understand the desire to use TSX and GMX loads.

[OlongJohnson]

There have been links posted to studies presenting sufficiently interesting data that one might reasonably choose to follow a precautionary principle in the release of Pb into the food ecosystem. Also, some jurisdictions require it.

[Lester Polfus]

There have been links posted to studies presenting sufficiently interesting data that one might reasonably choose to follow a precautionary principle in the release of Pb into the food ecosystem. Also, some jurisdictions require it.

This. It's a question of when, not if, this comes to Washington, so I'm pro-actively figuring out what monolithic loads work best in my hunting guns.

[TCFD273]

Mono metal bullets provide more reliable expansion at higher impact speed, so in general, lighter mono metal bullets tend to be more reliable and faster killers than heavier mono metal bullets, up until penetration is compromised by the lightness. Look up the mechanical properties of 5% brass (gilding metal). It’s stronger and harder than annealed 100 percent copper.

Shoot a heavy for caliber gilding metal bullet in a small cartridge from a 16-inch barrel, and the chance of a result like the OP goes up. Put it in an appropriately twisted.22-250, and a lot of concern evaporates. The 50 or 55gr bullets would likely be a better choice for the cartridge/gun/game combo.

I’ve had success using the 55 grain GMX TAP out of a 16” barrel. I have never used the 70. In my experience with all copper rounds, the faster the better.


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[Lester Polfus]

I’ve had success using the 55 grain GMX TAP out of a 16” barrel. I have never used the 70. In my experience with all copper rounds, the faster the better.


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I've been deep diving into copper bullets and the general consensus seems to be that you can go down a weight class, and often NEED to do that to get the required velocity. I'm wondering if the 55 grainer would have opened up a little more as well, although in this particular case, I would observe that the deer appears to be quite dead nonetheless.

[TCFD273]

I've been deep diving into copper bullets and the general consensus seems to be that you can go down a weight class, and often NEED to do that to get the required velocity. I'm wondering if the 55 grainer would have opened up a little more as well, although in this particular case, I would observe that the deer appears to be quite dead nonetheless.

As I’ve mentioned above, shot placement is paramount using a 5.56. That being said, I’ve had far better results using lighter copper bullets on hogs in 5.56, which led me to trying them on a several cull deer one year with great success. It’s pretty much all I use unless I’m wanting to test out a new bullet in a larger caliber rifle.

I do not care for all copper in larger caliber rifles though. They tend to pencil through animals. I prefer bullets that come apart inside the animal.


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[GJM]

I have used the Barnes .300 WM load, 180 TTSX BT, with complete satisfaction on two mule deer, one moose and three elk.

[John Hearne]

I have used the Barnes .300 WM load, 180 TTSX BT, with complete satisfaction on two mule deer, one moose and three elk.

That is impressive performance. How did you get all six animals to line up for the shot? :)

[GuanoLoco]

That is impressive performance. How did you get all six animals to line up for the shot? :)

He baited them with pepperoni on rye, doused with more than a little Wild Turkey.

[Unobtanium]

Do you really think the difference between .223 and .308 is just 1.25 inches of expansion? As Bill Wilson told me fifteen minutes ago, he views .223 as a small deer, perfect conditions cartridge.

To your point on the similarities between animals and people, people may stop from noise, a peripheral hit, or a mortal wound. Animals that you hunt require a lethal wound, with that wound ideally delivered so you can recover them soon and close by.

Sooo...

gel is now invalid and real world results > gello.
5.56 is marginal on anything but perfect angles on 150# creatures within 100 yards.

Funny how things change...

[TCFD273]

Sooo...

gel is now invalid and real world results > gello.
5.56 is marginal on anything but perfect angles on 150# creatures within 100 yards.

Funny how things change...

If your trying to harvest an animal humanely, yes. I’m ok out to 150yds on a broadside shot.

Otherwise you end up with a gut shot deer that runs for awhile and suffers.

Your initial post was about bullet performance. Shot placement is first, then terminal performance. If you can’t make near perfect hits on 150lb game, then yes, you need to step up in caliber.


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[Unobtanium]

If your trying to harvest an animal humanely, yes. I’m ok out to 150yds on a broadside shot.

Otherwise you end up with a gut shot deer that runs for awhile and suffers.

Your initial post was about bullet performance. Shot placement is first, then terminal performance. If you can’t make near perfect hits on 150lb game, then yes, you need to step up in caliber.


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As a new hunter, I'm not tracking.

Yes, with a heavy or monometal .308, i can shoot a deer in the arse and reach lungs. Maybe.

But really, what shot with a .308 that is ethical (other than that) would not be ethical or effective with a 5.56?

I did not shoot the deer in OP, i merely presented it as a case study about hollowpoint monometal failure along with a question if that was "a thing".

[GJM]

As a new hunter, I'm not tracking.

Yes, with a heavy or monometal .308, i can shoot a deer in the arse and reach lungs. Maybe.

But really, what shot with a .308 that is ethical (other than that) would not be ethical or effective with a 5.56?

I did not shoot the deer in OP, i merely presented it as a case study about hollowpoint monometal failure along with a question if that was "a thing".

I have been shooting animals for coming up on forty years, and through this experience on a range of animals from rabbits through elephant, learned that some bullets perform exactly as expected, some bullets perform better than expected, and some bullets perform worse than expected. Unfortunately, it is hard to know in advance which will do what.

When bullets do not perform as well as expected, due to the terminal performance of the bullet or shot placement, larger caliber bullets typically make larger holes that let more blood out, giving you more of a blood trail to follow, and causing the animal to die sooner due to blood loss. Larger caliber/heavier bullets also typically penetrate more deeply, allowing you to reach the vitals from more unfavorable angles, which can be helpful on a wounded animal that is fleeing, or when shooting animals, like dangerous game, where meat damage is not a consideration.

Being a new hunter is like a new pilot. You have tons of enthusiasm, but your actual knowledge is mostly theoretical. Some guys only learn from making mistakes themselves, while others read widely and engage in hangar talk, to learn from the mistakes and experience of other pilots to accelerate their learning. Threads like this are the equivalent of “hangar talk,” where you can get input from guys like Bill Wilson, who gets to shoot more deer in a year than most other hunters do in a lifetime.

Gel testing is important and useful, but no hunter would expect the results from gel testing to perfectly translate into bullet performance on every shot, since bullets often do weird things, and shot placement on living animals can be so variable.

[Unobtanium]

I have been shooting animals for coming up on forty years, and through this experience on a range of animals from rabbits through elephant, learned that some bullets perform exactly as expected, some bullets perform better than expected, and some bullets perform worse than expected. Unfortunately, it is hard to know in advance which will do what.

When bullets do not perform as well as expected, due to the terminal performance of the bullet or shot placement, larger caliber bullets typically make larger holes that let more blood out, giving you more of a blood trail to follow, and causing the animal to die sooner due to blood loss. Larger caliber/heavier bullets also typically penetrate more deeply, allowing you to reach the vitals from more unfavorable angles, which can be helpful on a wounded animal that is fleeing, or when shooting animals, like dangerous game, where meat damage is not a consideration.

Being a new hunter is like a new pilot. You have tons of enthusiasm, but your actual knowledge is mostly theoretical. Some guys only learn from making mistakes themselves, while others read widely and engage in hangar talk, to learn from the mistakes and experience of other pilots to accelerate their learning. Threads like this are the equivalent of “hangar talk,” where you can get input from guys like Bill Wilson, who gets to shoot more deer in a year than most other hunters do in a lifetime.

Gel testing is important and useful, but no hunter would expect the results from gel testing to perfectly translate into bullet performance on every shot, since bullets often do weird things, and shot placement on living animals can be so variable.

Yes. I am seeing the book vs. world disconnect in my experiences (as I theorized I just might...).

It's led me down a path to preferring a bonded softpoint. Those can't clog or "slam shut" if they hit a rib, etc.

[SecondHandSmoke]

I've seen decent performance from Federal Fusion 223 and a couple other 5.56 loads on decent sized northern deer. The shots were always inside of 200 yards on pushed/moving deer.

Only a couple of times was I the one pulling the trigger, but I have yet to see an animal wounded and get away after hit with a 5.56. I probably won't use it anymore, but others in the hunting group do.

[Unobtanium]

I've seen decent performance from Federal Fusion 223 and a couple other 5.56 loads on decent sized northern deer. The shots were always inside of 200 yards on pushed/moving deer.

Only a couple of times was I the one pulling the trigger, but I have yet to see an animal wounded and get away after hit with a 5.56. I probably won't use it anymore, but others in the hunting group do.

All of the deer I have shot with 5.56 (except the one who's spine got in the way...) ran about 75 yards and then piled up dead as could be. This is the only (see OP) failure I've ever seen from a good bullet in 5.56, but it has me seriously leaning back toward softpoints. About 150 yards is the furthest I could conceive of shooting a deer on my property, and a 75gr GDSP is still going to expand just fine, even out of a 12.5, at that distance, IMO. There is no way to have a failure with a softpoint unless there is a "quirk of the bullet" such as the core was harder than normal or something, IMO. The hollowpoint? Well, this one failed at a great velocity (5.56 pressure, 125m impact, give or take, from a 16.1) and t hat's given me serious pause. All t he people saying "Well, it didn't fail if the animal died", okay, fair enough, but I'm accustomed to similar damage from my 5.56 ammo as people are getting with 168gr SMK's from a .308 (I know, not a hunting bullet, but still, my 5.56 is showing those up bad on the autopsies of deer).

[TCFD273]

As a new hunter, I'm not tracking.

Yes, with a heavy or monometal .308, i can shoot a deer in the arse and reach lungs. Maybe.

But really, what shot with a .308 that is ethical (other than that) would not be ethical or effective with a 5.56?

I did not shoot the deer in OP, i merely presented it as a case study about hollowpoint monometal failure along with a question if that was "a thing".

The 308 has a lot more forgiveness than a 5.56. Im also not a fan of monometal bullets in larger calibers. For almost anything in the south, I recommend a Hornady SST in a 243 and up.

Bullets do weird things when they hit meat. The best example I can give is my wife shot a good buck 2wks ago with her 270. A good shot, a tad further back than I like, but it was a kill shot. The deer ran into pretty thick brush. No worries, because the Hornady SST made a blood trail like an axe murderer went ape shit. With a 5.56, I’m pretty sure we would have been looking for that for deer for hours. In this case, he went 35-40yds through some nasty stuff, but very easy to track.

A poorly shot deer, is a poorly shot animal no matter the caliber. But with larger heavier projectiles you will have a greater chance for more damage and a blood trail to track.


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[TCFD273]

and a 75gr GDSP is still going to expand just fine, even out of a 12.5, at that distance, IMO.

My friend, if you are using a 12.5” 223 at 100+yds you are playing with fire.

I’m all for sport shooting, hell I just won a nice pile of cash shooting Columbaire. But I hate seeing any animal suffer, and an SBR 223 is asking for trouble.


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[Unobtanium]

My friend, if you are using a 12.5” 223 at 100+yds you are playing with fire.

I’m all for sport shooting, hell I just won a nice pile of cash shooting Columbaire. But I hate seeing any animal suffer, and an SBR 223 is asking for trouble.


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I have friends that kill plenty of deer with 10.3-12.5's , well past 200 yards. I doubt it will be a problem, but am curious why you think it would be?

[Unobtanium]

The 308 has a lot more forgiveness than a 5.56. Im also not a fan of monometal bullets in larger calibers. For almost anything in the south, I recommend a Hornady SST in a 243 and up.

Bullets do weird things when they hit meat. The best example I can give is my wife shot a good buck 2wks ago with her 270. A good shot, a tad further back than I like, but it was a kill shot. The deer ran into pretty thick brush. No worries, because the Hornady SST made a blood trail like an axe murderer went ape shit. With a 5.56, I’m pretty sure we would have been looking for that for deer for hours. In this case, he went 35-40yds through some nasty stuff, but very easy to track.

A poorly shot deer, is a poorly shot animal no matter the caliber. But with larger heavier projectiles you will have a greater chance for more damage and a blood trail to track.


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This is the blood trail left by my 5.56. Similar leavings could be found every 3-4 feet.

32980

[rjohnson4405]

I only hunt deer with compound bows and shotguns (what's legal in my state), but that is a blood trail I would consider pretty weak.

Doesn't mean it didn't get the job done, but I'd want it to look like someone poured a full solo cup minimum over those distances you mentioned.

[Unobtanium]

I only hunt deer with compound bows and shotguns (what's legal in my state), but that is a blood trail I would consider pretty weak.

Doesn't mean it didn't get the job done, but I'd want it to look like someone poured a full solo cup minimum over those distances you mentioned.

It's more than my 12ga slug through both lungs managed.

[rjohnson4405]

It's more than my 12ga slug through both lungs managed.

Then you may be hitting the deer high, not too high to hit vitals, but high enough that the blood is filling the chest cavity and not getting high enough to pour out the entrance/exit holes.

Are you shooting from a stand? I often get better blood trails from a stand because the exit wound tends to be lower on the animal.

How far did the deer go with the 5.56 vs slug? I don't think you're doing anything unethical, to be clear. I'm just curious and wondering if I can help with my experiences. You seem to be very interested in learning and doing things right which is great!

ETA: And Lord knows I've done some things I wish I hadn't either out of ignorance, excitement, or laziness over my hunting career.

[TCFD273]

I have friends that kill plenty of deer with 10.3-12.5's , well past 200 yards. I doubt it will be a problem, but am curious why you think it would be?


This is the blood trail left by my 5.56. Similar leavings could be found every 3-4 feet.

32980
I’ll echo what was said above, that’s a pretty weak blood trail. And your not going to have an easy time tracking that on my ranch.

January through September a suppressed 11.5” SBR w/a 1-6x rides in my Ranger. I’ve shot PLENTY of hogs with it and I know what it’s capable of.

Oct-Dec its a 16” gun. Because why make a marginal caliber even worse.

Just because you can doesn’t mean you should.


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[Wayne Dobbs]

I've killed dozens of deer over 45 years of deer hunting and have used some of the usual "suspects" as far as rifles: .30-30, .30-06, .243 Winchester

I've also killed about two dozen in the past 10 years with a .45 ACP revolver. In that time, I also killed one with a 9mm and have taken several in my early pistol hunting days with .357 Magnum and .44 Magnum revolvers. I've learned a bit about shooting them and what works. Killing a white tail isn't hard, given a vital area hit and adequate penetration. If you achieve both of those, just about anything will do the job and has over the centuries we've been shooting them with firearms.

The problem that we all face after this is FINDING the deer! Sometimes they die in their tracks, sometimes they go a short distance and sometimes a very long distance, relatively speaking. The "find my deer" problem is often complicated with failing light, heavy vegetation, a poor (or no) blood trail and the fact that wounded deer don't always run a straight line after they're shot. Obviously, the more of these "sickening" factors you have, the larger the challenge to find the deer.

This isn't news, but full penetration of the heart/lung area with a large wound channel and a wide exit hole produce the best blood trail. Some calibers and projectiles do this as normal performance. The centerfire rifles I've mentioned above are pretty good at that with rare exceptions (with the .243 possibly not being a good candidate on very large deer). The high velocity projectiles that don't exit often produce some spectacular "in their tracks" kills, but when they don't, you have a missing deer and no blood trail, which is not good.

Surprisingly, the deer I've killed with a .45 ACP revolver have all gone less than 30 yards, and I think that's due to a lower noise level of the shot and therefore a less excited, though still fatally wounded animal. I've seen many of these deer run a few steps and then stop, wobble and drop dead. I've also noted that other deer present will often only run 10-15 yards at the shot and this has allowed me to double on a couple of occasions (I hunt on a ranch where we're management/cull hunting). With the growing use of suppressor equipped rifles, I wonder if this may not be a positive factor in helping to recover deer because they're not as scared from shot noise and supersonic crack.

[Unobtanium]

Then you may be hitting the deer high, not too high to hit vitals, but high enough that the blood is filling the chest cavity and not getting high enough to pour out the entrance/exit holes.

Are you shooting from a stand? I often get better blood trails from a stand because the exit wound tends to be lower on the animal.

How far did the deer go with the 5.56 vs slug? I don't think you're doing anything unethical, to be clear. I'm just curious and wondering if I can help with my experiences. You seem to be very interested in learning and doing things right which is great!

ETA: And Lord knows I've done some things I wish I hadn't either out of ignorance, excitement, or laziness over my hunting career.


5.56 killed the deer much better (68 yards vs. 100+). Both rounds hit lungs, neither hit heart. I won't use a 12ga slug when I can use 5.56, now. The autopsy was rather lackluster on the 12ga. I don't feel either deer was hit higher than the other, the 12ga just caused a lot less trauma all around. I was using the Federal DP LE slugs, which is probably part of it.

I'm honestly just perplexed about all the negativity the 5.56 is getting in this thread. Every deer I've shot with it, it has been rather graphic, except this singular bullet "failure" in OP. Which wasn;'t my deer. Was my ammo though,...

[TCFD273]

5.56 killed the deer much better (68 yards vs. 100+). Both rounds hit lungs, neither hit heart. I won't use a 12ga slug when I can use 5.56, now. The autopsy was rather lackluster on the 12ga. I don't feel either deer was hit higher than the other, the 12ga just caused a lot less trauma all around. I was using the Federal DP LE slugs, which is probably part of it.

I'm honestly just perplexed about all the negativity the 5.56 is getting in this thread. Every deer I've shot with it, it has been rather graphic, except this singular bullet "failure" in OP. Which wasn;'t my deer. Was my ammo though,...

I took 7 whitetails this year with a 223, 1 with 470 nitro, and 2 with a 6.5 Creed.

I’m not hating on 223 at all. I just know it’s a marginal caliber.

I have 25yrs of hunting the same 870 acres for whitetail. I’m one of 3 that shoot them, and I’ve used almost every caliber up to the 470NE.

I’ve lost deer, I’ve tracked them for hours, I’ve had bang flops and almost everything in between. The 223 absolutely works, you just need to pick your shots. Another rifle usually rides next to the 223, if a trophy comes walking out, I grab the bigger gun.


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[Unobtanium]

I've killed dozens of deer over 45 years of deer hunting and have used some of the usual "suspects" as far as rifles: .30-30, .30-06, .243 Winchester

I've also killed about two dozen in the past 10 years with a .45 ACP revolver. In that time, I also killed one with a 9mm and have taken several in my early pistol hunting days with .357 Magnum and .44 Magnum revolvers. I've learned a bit about shooting them and what works. Killing a white tail isn't hard, given a vital area hit and adequate penetration. If you achieve both of those, just about anything will do the job and has over the centuries we've been shooting them with firearms.

The problem that we all face after this is FINDING the deer! Sometimes they die in their tracks, sometimes they go a short distance and sometimes a very long distance, relatively speaking. The "find my deer" problem is often complicated with failing light, heavy vegetation, a poor (or no) blood trail and the fact that wounded deer don't always run a straight line after they're shot. Obviously, the more of these "sickening" factors you have, the larger the challenge to find the deer.

This isn't news, but full penetration of the heart/lung area with a large wound channel and a wide exit hole produce the best blood trail. Some calibers and projectiles do this as normal performance. The centerfire rifles I've mentioned above are pretty good at that with rare exceptions (with the .243 possibly not being a good candidate on very large deer). The high velocity projectiles that don't exit often produce some spectacular "in their tracks" kills, but when they don't, you have a missing deer and no blood trail, which is not good.

Surprisingly, the deer I've killed with a .45 ACP revolver have all gone less than 30 yards, and I think that's due to a lower noise level of the shot and therefore a less excited, though still fatally wounded animal. I've seen many of these deer run a few steps and then stop, wobble and drop dead. I've also noted that other deer present will often only run 10-15 yards at the shot and this has allowed me to double on a couple of occasions (I hunt on a ranch where we're management/cull hunting). With the growing use of suppressor equipped rifles, I wonder if this may not be a positive factor in helping to recover deer because they're not as scared from shot noise and supersonic crack.

All of my deer, I've shot suppressed when I use 5.56. I have not noted any difference in behavior vs. my unsuppressed shotgun, or friend's unsuppressed M4 type rifles.

Good data, and thank-you!

I guess I've never conceived that if I heavily damage the heart and lungs, the deer won't die within a very short distance?

[TCFD273]

All of my deer, I've shot suppressed when I use 5.56. I have not noted any difference in behavior vs. my unsuppressed shotgun, or friend's unsuppressed M4 type rifles.

Good data, and thank-you!

I guess I've never conceived that if I heavily damage the heart and lungs, the deer won't die within a very short distance?

Short is relative. 75yds through cactus and heavy brush can be pretty miserable, especially with no blood trail.

But yes, everything eventually dies if the lungs are shot out. Getting to the vitals is the key.

If it’s working for you, keep doing it. My only recommendation for 223 at this point is light for caliber using all copper, heavy using soft point. I’ve had better luck with light fast bullets though. If you can get it, try the Hornady TAP 55gr GMX out of a 16” Gun.


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[Hambo]

All of the deer I have shot with 5.56 (except the one who's spine got in the way...) ran about 75 yards and then piled up dead as could be.

That's not abnormal.


5.56 killed the deer much better

How much better? ;)

[Unobtanium]

Short is relative. 75yds through cactus and heavy brush can be pretty miserable, especially with no blood trail.

But yes, everything eventually dies if the lungs are shot out. Getting to the vitals is the key.

If it’s working for you, keep doing it. My only recommendation for 223 at this point is light for caliber using all copper, heavy using soft point. I’ve had better luck with light fast bullets though. If you can get it, try the Hornady TAP 55gr GMX out of a 16” Gun.


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I can get it, but am waiting to see if Black Hills will drop their loading in it, as I prefer them to Hornady.

[Unobtanium]

That's not abnormal.



How much better? ;)

About twice as fast (considering distance). Also, the lungs were in far worse shape given equal shot placement.

[TCFD273]

I can get it, but am waiting to see if Black Hills will drop their loading in it, as I prefer them to Hornady.

I get better velocities with Federal than black hills using the tsx

I think recall 55 TAP is around 3,000 or 3100 out of a 16”


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[GJM]

That is impressive performance. How did you get all six animals to line up for the shot? :)

It took four years.

[Unobtanium]

I get better velocities with Federal than black hills using the tsx

I think recall 55 TAP is around 3,000 or 3100 out of a 16”


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Federal stopped making their 55gr TSX LE loading, IIRC, no?

[PearTree]

Interesting thread. I use 308 for deer and echo what others have said, it’s unpredictable how the animal will react shooting the body regardless of caliber. This is why a long time ago I switched from body shooting deer to shooting them in the neck. I’m well into double digits of deer shot in the neck and I have a 100% drop on the spot rate going with the 308. We hunt with muzzleloaders as well and even body shots with those massive bullets at short distances are never guaranteed although the blood trail is so big a blind man could track with it. Given my experience and the size of deer I shoot I am in the camp that 556 is too small of a caliber. Even 243 is too small for my tastes because a perfect shot is required to dispatch the animal. And for reference my last deer I shot was in the 210-230 lb range.

[Trigger]

Interesting thread. I use 308 for deer and echo what others have said, it’s unpredictable how the animal will react shooting the body regardless of caliber. This is why a long time ago I switched from body shooting deer to shooting them in the neck. I’m well into double digits of deer shot in the neck and I have a 100% drop on the spot rate going with the 308. We hunt with muzzleloaders as well and even body shots with those massive bullets at short distances are never guaranteed although the blood trail is so big a blind man could track with it. Given my experience and the size of deer I shoot I am in the camp that 556 is too small of a caliber. Even 243 is too small for my tastes because a perfect shot is required to dispatch the animal. And for reference my last deer I shot was in the 210-230 lb range.

Given the opportunity, I neck-shoot deer now as well. But the opportunity is not always there.

I like using .243, 6.5 and .308. Given the choice, I favor bullet velocity over bullet weight.

[TCFD273]

Federal stopped making their 55gr TSX LE loading, IIRC, no?

62 grain. I prefer the lighter all copper bullets


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[OlongJohnson]

Surprisingly, the deer I've killed with a .45 ACP revolver have all gone less than 30 yards, and I think that's due to a lower noise level of the shot and therefore a less excited, though still fatally wounded animal. I've seen many of these deer run a few steps and then stop, wobble and drop dead. I've also noted that other deer present will often only run 10-15 yards at the shot and this has allowed me to double on a couple of occasions (I hunt on a ranch where we're management/cull hunting). With the growing use of suppressor equipped rifles, I wonder if this may not be a positive factor in helping to recover deer because they're not as scared from shot noise and supersonic crack.

I've read similar regarding suppressor hunting. Anecdotes of the deer just standing there, seeming to wonder what that noise was and failing to connect the noise with the fact that it's feeling some pain, maybe wondering what silent, invisible animal has attacked it, until it tips over from low blood pressure.

Seems like would be best optimized with a subsonic round, like a 230gr HST+P through a can, like on a USP Tactical.

Or maybe a bigger/tougher animal with a .44 cal, 325gr lead FN (a .444 Marlin light load comes to mind) going about 1050 FPS out of a suppressed 16" long gun with no cylinder gap.

BTW, did you ever shoot your deer with Dagga Boy's Expert?

[Lester Polfus]

I've read similar regarding suppressor hunting. Anecdotes of the deer just standing there, seeming to wonder what that noise was and failing to connect the noise with the fact that it's feeling some pain, maybe wondering what silent, invisible animal has attacked it, until it tips over from low blood pressure.


I have observed this while shooting deer with a longbow that I have. It is dead silent on release, because I've tuned some string silencers and I usa 750 grain arrow.

[Wayne Dobbs]

Seems like would be best optimized with a subsonic round, like a 230gr HST+P through a can, like on a USP Tactical.



BTW, did you ever shoot your deer with Dagga Boy's Expert?


That's exactly the load I've used the most in my S&W 625 Mountain Gun (pre-lock). I've also used a 255 Keith at about 900 on several. Results have been about the same across the board: Well placed shot at ranges under 25 yards, full penetration, very short run and dead deer.

[WDR]

Using .223 on deer strikes me as being either a stunt or a by product of MSR love, and I can’t imagine choosing .223 on deer for any other reason.

Since there is a bit of thread drift going on here... I'll pitch in on this.

With modern bullets its really not a stunt at all, unless you are hunting big bruiser deer (or other, larger game). On some of the tiny bodied Texas deer, and other smaller animals, like Antelope/Pronghorn... I'd argue that .223 is more than enough. If you choose your shots carefully, .223/5.56mm with proper bullets, is plenty for most deer. I will absolutely agree that it does limit your options on "Texas heart shots" etc... which for a lot of people isn't really a consideration, short of wounded game getting away. I don't think I'd ever take that shot on a non-wounded animal, and I'd probably be hesitant to take it on a wounded animal as well. Better to back off and let the animal bleed out for a few minutes before following up. Deer are not dangerous game.

I've used the 70 grain Barnes TSX bullet in my own handloads to take a young, but big bodied mule deer buck. It was a running shot, and I screwed the pooch, and hit it way far back, breaking both rear hips/spine... followed up quickly with two rounds to the heart/lungs, and a 4th from a frontal angle that basically penetrated the deer front to back (30+inches), as the deer fell. Why so many shots? Well, because it wasn't dead yet, and having made the poor initial running shot, I didn't want to be tracking a wounded animal. Seeing as to how .223 from a semi-auto allows fast follow up shots, I basically "shot it to the ground". For sure not my best feat of marksmanship, but the bullets all penetrated (far above what you might expect from a .223), and judging by the wounds, expanded well. All but the first poorly placed shot would have been fatal within a minute or so, I'd say. I fired five rounds, and made four hits, three fatal, within the span of maybe 5-10 seconds. My usual hunting rifle (.30-06, 180gr Accubonds) wouldn't have fared any better on that poorly placed running shot.

Moving on to a couple years later, I had a two tag, doe pronghorn/antelope hunt. I had found a small band several days prior to the opening day, and knew almost exactly where I'd find them that morning. Before sunrise, I made my way into the canyon/draw where they were, and slowly walked and scanned for my quarry. I stopped when I heard the buck of the band huff/snort at me, and he stood up, but didn't run. Spotting a doe bedded down on the hillside in front of me, about 150 yards out, I found a spot to go prone, and started searching for the other animals. I found a couple more, and picked one that was in a reasonable position to shoot, while it was still lying down. I put one 62gr Federal Fusion through the boiler room. She stood up, ran a few yards, then turned back and toppled over. The buck stood his ground, and I found a second doe, now standing, after I made sure the first one was down and not moving. I figured I was about to get dirty anyway, so I put another single round through that doe, and it also ran a few yards, then toppled over dead. Both were good broadside shots. Both didn't make it more than 10 yards from where they were shot. My wife was pretty upset when I went back to the trailer about 30 minutes after I had left, to tell her to get up and start breakfast... and that my hunt was over in the first minutes of the first day.

When I hunt, I almost always take my bolt action .30-06, because I am more confident in making a longer shot, at a less than optimum angle if necessary, and in some cases, I really don't mind making a mess of the far, offside shoulder if it means I anchor the animal where it stands. But I've used .223 on deer and antelope sized game without issue, and I have sometimes chosen to take one of my AR's instead of the bolt gun. Bolt guns also carry better in the field for me, slung, or in my hands. In brushy country, and shorter ranges, I've sometimes chosen to use an AR. That said, I understand its limitations, and have passed on shooting before, when maybe I would have taken the shot with a larger caliber.

I've said a couple of times I'd like to take a cow elk with a 75gr .223 Gold Dot or 70gr TSX... just to prove it could be done... but that is certainly bordering on a stunt. Elk have far larger and tougher bones. But I have no doubts I could, if required, cleanly take one with a smaller caliber rifle and proper bullets. Just have to get close, and pick a clean shot, like handgun hunting.

ETA: In my state the only caliber requirement for hunting big game is that you use a centerfire cartridge firing expanding bullets. So, theoretically, you could hunt bison with a .17 Remington. It also means that 9x19 would be legal to use in a rifle/carbine.... but is not legal when fired from a handgun (does not meet the minimum ft-lbs of energy required).

[Jim Watson]

I am not a hunter but can offer an amusing anecdote.

A friend's son, about 11 years old, reported killing his first deer.
Me: "Good hunting, what did you shoot it with?"
Kid: ".223, 64 grain Winchester."
Me: "Good choice of bullet."
Kid: "People usually ask me how many times I had to shoot it."
Me: "OK, how many times?"
Kid: "Once."

[Galbraith]

Interesting thread. I use 308 for deer and echo what others have said, it’s unpredictable how the animal will react shooting the body regardless of caliber. This is why a long time ago I switched from body shooting deer to shooting them in the neck. I’m well into double digits of deer shot in the neck and I have a 100% drop on the spot rate going with the 308. We hunt with muzzleloaders as well and even body shots with those massive bullets at short distances are never guaranteed although the blood trail is so big a blind man could track with it. Given my experience and the size of deer I shoot I am in the camp that 556 is too small of a caliber. Even 243 is too small for my tastes because a perfect shot is required to dispatch the animal. And for reference my last deer I shot was in the 210-230 lb range.

I have off-and-on shot white tail deer for about 25 years now. I have lost count of how many I have harvested in that time, but in my experience the smaller rifle calibers are more prone to fail in rapid incapacitation of the deer than larger calibers. With 5.56, even with the best loads offered today, I still find that getting white tail to drop quickly is a tricky matter. Shot angle, placement, and range need to be ideal with a precision optic. For a long time I shot white tail with an old Springfield M1903 .30-06 and generic soft points, and even with open sights and less than ideal placement/angle white tail dropped very well. My father has been hunting white tail regularly since the 1950s, and he settled on the .270 Winchester as being the ideal white tail caliber in the 1970s after using a wide variety of .25s-.30s. I would agree with my father that the happy balance for white tail(or any mammal in the 200lb range) is probably the .277 caliber +or- a few hundredths. :)

[medic15al]

Mitght as well us FMJ then.

It lived for 10 minutes or so, ran, bedded, ran again, maybe 75 yards total. Way worse kill than any of mine. THIS is what I'm used to for entry/exit for 70gr GMX when it does as designed.

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32928

Back in the mid 80s or so when I was a teen, I accidentally shot a small spike with actual U.S.G.I M-193 (dad grabbed some from the NG unit after a qual day). I grabbed the wrong mag in the dark Thinking I had some handloaded 60 grain Partitions or some other SP.

Colt 20in SP1 with the 1/12 twist.

The wound looked almost like the one in your picture. Range was about 40-50 yds.