Training PID and decision to fire

[JDD]

What, if any, resources exist to train shoot/no shoot and target id outside of dedicated facilities and courses. The brain equivalent of dry fire practice vs range time.

I have reasonable shooting abilities (high C low B for USPSA production). On the shooting mechanics front I have substantial room for improvement, but I have identified specific areas and training options to reinforce those skills.

The problem that I have is with overrunning my headlights. I can put accurate aimed fire into a target much faster than I can positively identify the target and make the mental switch to engage. I have had quite a few fantastic opportunities to train force on force, escalation of force, various types of video simulation, and even simple drills like flip the card and shoot the target with the matching suit, but I am looking for something that I can incorporate into a weekly routine that is not on a range.

What do you folks use to exercise your ability to make those choices? It's an OODA loop problem, but if it is a skill, it should be one I can practice - ideally outside of an extensive training environment.

[BehindBlueI's]

Do you have access to realistic FoF or a FATS simulator? There's at least two places in my state were private citizens can use a firearms simulator. Outside of a training environment or role play, I don't know what would be helpful.

[JDD]

Do you have access to realistic FoF or a FATS simulator? There's at least two places in my state were private citizens can use a firearms simulator. Outside of a training environment or role play, I don't know what would be helpful.

There are some decent course options that I can ask my agency to send me to when we have the time and they also have a FATs system in my last field office, but sadly those are not options that are available to me right now.

I know I am reaching, but I figure that if anyone has dealt with this before or had good ideas on the way to train it, they would be here on PF.

[Chemsoldier]

Video review of real incidents ala Active Self Protection followed by visualization?

Incorporation of more dry fire drills that do not alwats result ina trigger press and/or where you do not know whether you are going to need to shoot till the draw has started? Perhaps a partner to indicate shoot or verbal challenge or something?

[HCM]

The technical shooting ability to “out run your headlights” is not uncommon. Jared Reston does a good job discussing it here:


https://youtu.be/8YMA7Y7aer0

[JDD]

Video review of real incidents ala Active Self Protection followed by visualization?

Incorporation of more dry fire drills that do not alwats result ina trigger press and/or where you do not know whether you are going to need to shoot till the draw has started? Perhaps a partner to indicate shoot or verbal challenge or something?

These sound workable with what I have, I appreciate the ideas.

[OnionsAndDragons]

YouTube.

Set it up through a laptop on your tv. Play action scenes from movies you aren't familiar with or even video game play throughs and dry fire when you ID bad guys.

The movies you will be able to grab scenes of differing paces, but you can do some fast and furious stuff if you find the right video game cuts to game.

I've been trying this recently and really like it. I try to revisit older cop movies that I don't remember who was the first aggressor in a scene etc so I am surprised as much as possible.

Something to consider if you wanna do it at home.


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[DueSpada]

"What do you folks use to exercise your ability to make those choices? It's an OODA loop problem, but if it is a skill, it should be one I can practice - ideally outside of an extensive training environment."

Can the decision to shoot or not to shoot be contained in a jargon filled training technicality?

[rathos]

Although it takes some work to get them done initially (actors for the pictures and a place to do it) I have seen some simulators done with powerpoint. Then use a projector and a choose your own adventure type thing and use SIRT pistols. We have also done a setup at the range with live fire on a white background which adds some more realism to it and makes it easier to record where shots landed.

[cpd2110]

I suffered the same problem when I first started out on the job. I have always been able to run the gun fast, no matter pistol or rifle. I would also show off. When I transferred to my agency now, 15 years ago, I was so far ahead of everyone else that I would routinely be done with a drill and holstered before many were even part way through. My firearms instructor cert was recognized in short order and I began to influence the training curriculum. Then I went to a class and was embarrassed in front of the whole class as the instructor called me out for speed holstering, shooting things too fast without proper PID. As an instructor I realized not only was I building a serious training scar into myself but also into my people. It was a pivotal moment for sure. Subsequently I trained with many members of a certain Tier 1 unit. They stressed PID, to the point of guys getting fired for failure to do so.

I think it comes down to simply using discipline, make the choice to confirm its a shoot or no shoot. The other thing we do is impose penalties on our people, it can be push ups, walk of shame back to the range house etc. Personally I view it as I have a responsibility to the officers I work with (cause it could be one of them in an active threat deal), the citizens and my family to ensure I do or don't need to shoot a target. Each one can be involved in situations, think chaotic scenes, armed citizens or home defense where my ability to process and discriminate is not just important, its a duty.

I will leave you with a couple tricks we have done with our people. We get a room the size of most bedrooms and put as many targets in that room as possible. We then have the officer enter the room initially and video them so they see their confusion. The targets are shoot/no shoot and of the 25ish targets maybe 3-4 are actually shoot. We just have them say bang when they see one. On the first run you always see the same thing, mind overload. Their eyes are running everywhere but seeing nothing. We then pull them out, teach them to scan the whole body first (soft focus), then the hands, waistline, surrounding area and then the face/demeanor last. The reason is that teaching people to look at hands first, ie see gun, also means people will shoot often before they PID if its a threat. We do the soft focus first because for us, you may see a team members patch or badge or some other indicators that say don't shoot. This whole deal is from Paul Howe, so he kind of knows what he is talking about.

We have them do the drill again, with the systematic approach listed above, plus starting on one side and moving their eyes across the room in a pattern. They improve greatly from the first time and their time to PID is reduced. We also teach eye sprints. I picked this up from a student at a shooting class with Frank Proctor. Basically, its a way to improve your processing by sprinting your eyes from one place to the next. So on the range if I were with a partner, I would watch him shoot, look at the target and back to him etc. This can be done say doing a 2-2-2 drill, I know he is going to shoot each target twice, but I can sprint my eyes from place to place. I do this at home a lot, if I get up to get a drink I will pick a couple places out on the way and act like I'm shooting a gun. I fire the first shot and sprint my eyes to the next place I would shoot. The idea is that running my eyes to the next potential threat, before my gun gets there, I may be able to decide not to shoot by the time my gun gets there. The average person takes about .33 seconds to undo a decision. My hope is that by doing this drill I can help my processing ability.

I hope the ideas above help.

[Chemsoldier]

So with competition shooting we break it into little pieces and work on those pieces and then put it all back together right?

Perhaps we break the PID and decision to fire into pieces, build capacity in each and put it all back together. We can always give enough tactical stimulus to overwhelm the trainee, so to just come up with super complicated shoot/don't shoot scenarios would be like putting a budding competition shooter into a long field stage and saying "go faster."

1. NOTICE: Increase the shooter's ability to notice things under time pressure. Start with generous time window "Kim Games" (where a person is presented with an array of things for a time period and then the items are removed and they are asked to remember them). Keep it related to the tactical domain. Badges, guns by type, pictures of people that are known, types of uniforms, vehicles, etc. with diminishing time standards. Perhaps stand in a windowless room facing the wall, partner places various objects, photo-grade targets, etc. Shot timer is set with a par time. On the beep the trainee turns and tries to see what he can see. On the par beep, the partner turns out the lights so visual is cut off. Talk through what was seen in the dark, then turn it back on and check your work. That would be the seeing equivalent of some of the "calling your shot" drills. Basically try to build the shooter's ability to notice small details within time pressure. Note that this is not really about identifying a "shoot" situation. Someone with a gun may not deserve to get shot. Eventually move to video stimulus so the shooter is assessing moving, active stimulus with body language and facial expressions.
2. DISCRIMINATE: Classic Target discrimination using color/number/shape; building the ability to process stimulus and make a decision and implement. Don't just shout the stimulus, use a visual cue or maybe discordant stimulus (car horn for blue, three light up dots for "3", etc).
3. SHOOT: Keep working on the technical aspects of shooting fast and accurate. Misidentification and being slow out of the starting gate in identifying the need to shoot will happen sometimes no matter how well trained, so the ability to get the gun out and rounds on target will be important still. In particular the ability to work through flubbed draws and such mistakes and not lose focus or feel rushed.
4. TACTICS: Do similar perception drills as in 1. above, but deliberately set them up so the trainee needs to change something to perceive fully, like changing their position to get a better angle. Perceiving potential cover, and determining when they have the tactical stimulus to find it even if they don't have the stimulus to shoot?
4. SCENARIO TRAINING: Putting it all together. Combine all elements into scenario based training using live fire, branching video and/or sims training. Can also do some self-study using visualization. Include scenarios that do not result in a "shoot," add success criteria to the "no shoot" scenarios like voice or written reporting so the trainee cannot just mind dump once he knows its a "no shoot." Adding similar success criteria to "shoot" scenarios may not be a bad idea either.

I guess that is what comes to my mind.

[JDD]

So with competition shooting we break it into little pieces and work on those pieces and then put it all back together right?

Perhaps we break the PID and decision to fire into pieces, build capacity in each and put it all back together. We can always give enough tactical stimulus to overwhelm the trainee, so to just come up with super complicated shoot/don't shoot scenarios would be like putting a budding competition shooter into a long field stage and saying "go faster."

1. NOTICE: Increase the shooter's ability to notice things under time pressure. Start with generous time window "Kim Games" (where a person is presented with an array of things for a time period and then the items are removed and they are asked to remember them). Keep it related to the tactical domain. Badges, guns by type, pictures of people that are known, types of uniforms, vehicles, etc. with diminishing time standards. Perhaps stand in a windowless room facing the wall, partner places various objects, photo-grade targets, etc. Shot timer is set with a par time. On the beep the trainee turns and tries to see what he can see. On the par beep, the partner turns out the lights so visual is cut off. Talk through what was seen in the dark, then turn it back on and check your work. That would be the seeing equivalent of some of the "calling your shot" drills. Basically try to build the shooter's ability to notice small details within time pressure. Note that this is not really about identifying a "shoot" situation. Someone with a gun may not deserve to get shot. Eventually move to video stimulus so the shooter is assessing moving, active stimulus with body language and facial expressions.
....

I guess that is what comes to my mind.


This is incredibly useful. I really like the breakdown, it helps me mentally contextualize the way I was looking at the issue.

Your sub-skill #1 of notice is what I want to develop the most. It's not the mechanics of actually shooting (although I do need to work on going from a target focus as I work through the Notice phase, to the hard front sight focus as the OODA loop rolls into a firing cycle) it is the issue of making that assessment and the decision to engage.

I really liked the way that FLETC did practical application training on the use of force, but that is a difficult package to reproduce!

[JDD]

Can the decision to shoot or not to shoot be contained in a jargon filled training technicality?

Of course not. It is an incredibly complex and difficult decision that has to be made quickly with imperfect information, and enormous consequences ...but I suspect your question is rhetorical.

That said, while I have never been a good communicator, the various bits of jargon that I used to ask my question have resulted in some very useful responses that I can incorporate into actual training to improve my skills.

My organization has a program that is a particularly notorious compost pile of jargon that has been robbed from any number of different sources - but underneath it all, many of us are able to appreciate the utility of a system that ensures we all have a shared reference point and common language (even if we frequently use it as a punchline, and don't necessarily feel obligated to use it for everything).