Replacement for Unique?

[revchuck38]

I've finally finished off my stash of old powder - I've got about 200 rounds worth of Solo 1250 to load in .40 S&W and that's it, I'll be completely out of pistol powder. I want to order an eight-pound jug of a medium-speed powder and want to try something new, or at least new to me.

What I'm looking for is a powder that will work well in several calibers that is not Unique:

9x19 +P with 124 FMJs
.38 Special +P and .357 Magnum with 158 coated lead
.40 S&W with 180 coated lead
.41 Magnum with 210 coated lead
.44 Special and Magnum with 240 coated lead
.45 ACP with 230 coated lead

I want to approximate factory loads in the defensive calibers (9x19, .38 Special, .40 S&W, 45 ACP) and hit midrange velocities (1000-1100 fps) in the Magnums. My main beef with Unique is how it meters, so I want something that meters well in a Dillon RL550. Other qualities I'm looking for are clean burning, relatively cool burning - doing Bill Drills with a revolver with ammo loaded with Titegroup made this a requirement - and relatively low flash.

Perusing the powder manufacturer's websites shows the following powders to be possibilities based on published data:

BE-86
W244
W572
CFE Pistol
Silhouette
AA#5

I'd appreciate experience-based recommendations. Thanks!

[olstyn]

CFE Pistol is what I was going to suggest before I even read your list of possibilities. I found that in 9mm, it required slightly heavier charge weights than Unique, but metered much better in my Hornady powder measure. The reason I haven't gone through the pound of it that I bought to try is that I tried VV N320 at the same time and got hooked on that one's soft recoil impulse for USPSA loads.

[Hambo]

What I'm looking for is Unique-like powder that is not unique to one caliber, that is not Unique:

I think I FIFY ;) Other than torturing grammar, I tried to use just two handgun powders for a while (TiteGroup and H110) at in the end it wasn't 100%. I didn't find any .44 mag data for AA5 on their site so maybe that's a no-go.

[Jim Watson]

I have loaded all those (except .41 which I do not own) with W231/HP38 and done OK.
I believe W244 to be the Designated Successor to 231, more environmental/less expensive process, similar application but not a grain for grain replacement.

I just loaded up and started shooting up the pound of W572 that came in my IDPA match goodie bag. I was at the maximum for 147gr 9mm before the velocity evened out, anything less gave wide velocity variation. I did not try it in other calibers, I did not plan on buying more, so why do more workup?

I think Ball powders are less flexible than flake or extruded. I have READ a lot in favor of BE86. Universal (clays) is said to be a Unique equivalent.

[MGW]

A friend of mine has just started experimenting with CFE in 9mm. It is much less blasty than Titegroup, burns really clean, and feels very consistent. I have settled on Bullseye because it works for every pistol caliber I load (38, 9, and 45) and is cheap. I really like the way 231 feels but it’s just kind of a dirty burning powder compared to other stuff.

I think I might explore CFE when I finally burn up all the Bullseye I have put back.

[Lester Polfus]

I almost ran out of powder during the Great Ammo Panic. CFE Pistol was one of the few powders available at the time so I ordered several pounds. I've run it through .38 Special and 10mm loads and have been quite happy with it. It meters well and I get very low extreme spreads and and standard deviations with my hand loads, which have been more than acceptably accurate.

[Jim Watson]

I almost ran out of powder during the Great Ammo Panic. CFE Pistol was one of the few powders available at the time so I ordered several pounds. .

A friend had the same experience. Came to prefer CFE-P over the 231 he had been using but could not get.

[willie]

I suggest that the op consult a burning rate chart to see powders having similar burning rates to Unique. He may be asking a great deal for one powder to perform really well across the board when at the same time requiring it to excel at metering accurately. I suggest considering a fast powder like Bullseye or 231 and then a slower powder like HS-6. Either will meter accurately. The choices will give wider burn rate range which permits greater versatility. In the event of powder shortage, either will work for the calibers listed although HS-6 is not an ideal powder for .45 acp.

[deputyG23]

I load all the calibers and weights you list except .41. I use BE-86 for all but .44 mag.
Produces service round velocities with the three service auto rounds and .38 special with acceptable consistency and accuracy. I suspect .44 mag would be easily loaded with it but I have two pounds of WST to use up and seven grains behind a 240 grain cast bullet yields 850 FPS from a 3” M29.

[andre3k]

BE-86 is what you want.

http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/Powder.aspx?powderid=38

[willie]

BE-86 is what you want.

http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/Powder.aspx?powderid=38

I learned something. Reading the link showed this powder to be ideal. I was ignorant of its usefulness since I'm locked in to a giant supply of older powders. Will buy a can.

[fly out]

Anyone tried to sub in Alliant's more-recent Sport Pistol? The recipes are not quite as extensive as BE-86.

I've been told by some reloading friends that it is now the first choice for polymer-coated bullets. (I'm mostly stuck on jacketed bullets.)

Anyone?

[olstyn]

No direct experience with Sport Pistol here, but the charge weights I see listed for 9mm match up pretty closely with N320 and/or Titegroup, so it's probably on the fast end of the spectrum. A friend of mine recently started using it for his USPSA loads and seems happy so far for that purpose. I'll definitely be interested to pick up a pound to try out when my current stash of N320 runs low, but I don't think it's really a substitute for Unique.

[Mark D]

I'm interested in Alliant Sport Pistol too. The Alliant webpage for Sport Pistol has published loads for all of the OP's calibers, with the exception of .41 Mag/special.

http://www.alliantpowder.com/products/powder/sport-pistol.aspx

[ER_STL]

I've been using Winchester's Super Field (WSF) for about 8 years now and it meets all of my needs. It burns at a rate that appears to be pretty close to Unique according to this chart (https://www.hodgdon.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/burn-rate-color.pdf) on Hodgon's site. it burns clean, it can be used to safely load up through +P levels and it has the added benefit of smelling good too. :)

Oh, it's also a small ball powder so it meters very well. It's not an overly bulky powder though but for standard pressure 9mm loads (124gr) the brass is almost 50% full; double-charges become very obvious.

[Hambo]

Universal (clays) is said to be a Unique equivalent.

And CSB1M is a Universal equivalent. I bought a ton of it cheap and use it in 9mm and .45acp, but there isn't much data for anything else. I have read guys who are working with it in other calibers.

[muzzleblast]

For me, pistol powders are Bullseye, Unique, 2400 and H110. Mebbe, some day, I'll try some of that new stuff. :rolleyes:

[ranger]

I have never tried to standardize on just one powder - I would need at least two - one "medium burn rate" and one "slow burn rate". The closest I have to the "one" powder is WSF.

However, I got caught once without enough powder on hand and the market went crazy. I have multiple pistol powders that I bought when I shot anything I could get on the shelf. I hope to never be reloading component short again.

[revchuck38]

All - Thanks for the feedback! I've narrowed it down to CFE-Pistol and BE-86. The deciding factor will probably be whichever is on sale on payday. :)

Some notes...

I went through a pound of WSF, actually worked up a load for .357 Magnum with 158-grain LRNs. I had to do that blind since there's no revolver data out there that I could find. It was pretty nice, though.

I'll never use HS6 again. I thought it was discontinued about ten years ago. I think the only powders that leave more unburnt powder are 1F and 2F. 3F is about equal. :cool:

I no longer hunt, so the .41 and .44 Mags are fun guns. Full power loads through them are not fun, at least for my 66-year-old body. I'm pretty sure a 240-grain LSWC at 1000 fps will penetrate anything that walks east of the Mississippi. That's well within medium-speed powder range. If I end up spending time in the Rockies, I'll just buy a pound of 296. :)

[BehindBlueI's]

I don't know what you went with, but I like CFE pistol for semi-auto cartridges. I found it very position sensitive in .38 158gr SWC loads. It just didn't fill enough of the case and was very inconsistent in velocity. It's fine for WC loads.

[FPS]

Powder Valley has good prices on CFE Pistol, especially the 8#. They are running specials now (free hazmat through today) and will be running more deals up to Christmas - https://www.powdervalleyinc.com/product/hodgdon-cfe-pistol/

[Unisaw]

During the Great Shortage, I bought 8 lbs. of Universal Clays. I haven’t used it yet. Does anyone here have experience using it for .38 Special and 45 ACP?

[Sal Picante]

What I'm looking for is a powder that will work well in several calibers that is not Unique:


Ah... "Antique", err, "Unique", aka "fish food flake"...

LOL

Someone mentioned Win231 (also Hogdon HP-38, they're the same) and that is a pretty good choice for the variety you're interested in. In the 44 there is some really nice data pushing a 240 pill at low-recoil 44 special velocities ~6.5. In my 44 Mag Snubbie (Alaskan) I had to boost it to 7gr but it is still really soft. It is a nicely metering, non-temp affected powder that burns reasonably clean. Try 3.5gr under a 147 coated in 9mm sometime for a super nice action pistol load.

AA#5 is nice, but I don't think you'll be able to load as much variety with it. I love the way AA2 and AA5 meter: spherical powder that is like the fine sand of a Florida beach...

During the powder shortages or '09 and '13 I loaded through 10#'s of Unique... It certainly works, but it is, well, unique...

p/BWO6_E-Ae8i

[olstyn]

During the powder shortages or '09 and '13 I loaded through 10#'s of Unique... It certainly works, but it is, well, unique...

Unique was the powder I started out with when I was first learning reloading. It does the job, and there's data for tons of calibers, but it meters poorly (like +/- 0.2 to sometimes 0.3 grains where N320 and CFE Pistol are both +/- 0.1 grains or less for me) and it's dirty. 4.7 under a MG 124 JHP @1.075" made ~130 PF from a 3.5" barrel for me, so you can definitely do action pistol loads with it, but it's far from optimal. 4.2 of N320 made the same velocity with noticeably less blast/recoil, was LIGHT YEARS cleaner, and produced far lower SD numbers. 5.0 of CFE-P made the same velocity, had about the same recoil impulse as Unique, metered better, was cleaner, and produced SD numbers that were close, but not quite as good as N320. I've still got ~1/3 of a pound of Unique on my bench, but it'll be my powder of last resort if I manage to run out of everything else somehow.

Now that I'm shooting a longer-barreled gun and using coated bullets at a bit longer OAL, N320 only needs 4.0 to get the job done, so I'm sure the charge weight for Unique and CFE-P would be lower, but that arguably makes Unique even worse, because the variations produced by its poor metering characteristics would be a larger percentage of the total charge weight.

[revchuck38]

A downside to CFE-P is that one could easily double-charge a case with it, it's so dense. By contrast, a book-max standard-pressure load of 5.8 grains of Unique under a 124-grain FMJ in 9x19 almost fills the case. The Unique load runs 1135 fps from my PX4, so it's a good stand-in for +P HST (1186 fps). Hopefully I can replicate that with CFE-P.

[olstyn]

The Unique load runs 1135 fps from my PX4, so it's a good stand-in for +P HST (1186 fps). Hopefully I can replicate that with CFE-P.

I expect you'll be able to get there. Some folks shooting USPSA Open division use CFE-P to load 9mm to major power factor, pushing 124 gr bullets to close to 1400 FPS. Granted, that's way over book max through a gun with a fully-supported chamber specifically built to handle it, but just under 1200 shouldn't be too tough to make happen within a more normal pressure range.

[revchuck38]

Hodgdon's data shows 5.5 grains giving a 124-grain Berry's HBRN 1120 fps. I'm out of bullets right now but have about 2k loaded, it'll probably be next month before I try it out. I've got >1k of 40 to load first.

[Jim Watson]

I learned something. Reading the link showed this powder to be ideal. I was ignorant of its usefulness since I'm locked in to a giant supply of older powders. Will buy a can.

Giant supply of what older powders?
Why not use them?

[GuanoLoco]

And CSB1M is a Universal equivalent. I bought a ton of it cheap and use it in 9mm and .45acp, but there isn't much data for anything else. I have read guys who are working with it in other calibers.

It’s awesome sauce in 9mm but I don’t load in other pistol calibers. I’ve written on it before.

[willie]

I learned something. Reading the link showed this powder to be ideal. I was ignorant of its usefulness since I'm locked in to a giant supply of older powders. Will buy a can.

I definitely will continue to use the tried and true powders. Out of curiosity I might experiment with a can of this newer powder. Sometimes I enjoy shooting low velocity cast bullet loads in some center fire rifle calibers. For this Unique is very useful. Perhaps the powder mentioned above will have magical powers and with it I can produce even more accurate ammo with which to shoot stumps and dirt clods. ;)

The older powders are Red Dot, Green Dot, Unique, Bullseye, 2400, IMR 4227, HS-6. I won't live long enough to exhaust the supply. Somebody will hit a homerun at my wife's yard sale.

[revchuck38]

If I had a lifetime supply of those, I'd just keep using them too!

[willie]

Hey rev, if you're ever driving through Waco, bring containers labeled with each of the above. I'll share with you.

[jtcarm]

I suggest that the op consult a burning rate chart to see powders having similar burning rates to Unique.

This is probably dated, I don’t see BE-86:
https://www.grafs.com/uploads/technical-resource-pdf-file/14.pdf

I switched to Power Pistol for a medium rate powder during the ammo panic and am quite happy in .38 +P.

[Spartan1980]

You want BE-86. A friend of mine is a factory sponsored shooter (big name starting with f) and his sponsor and a lot of others load it in their factory loads. He said "at least I'm pretty sure" with a big smile. It's only new as canister powder. It's been used by several factories for years.

It's reasonably priced, extremely versatile, flash suppressed, meters well, and seems pretty clean. I've went through about 2lbs of it so far in 9mm. I plan on it being my primary pistol powder in .380, .38SP, 9mm and .45 and switching to Sport Pistol specifically for USPSA ammo.

[GuanoLoco]

...
Someone mentioned Win231 (also Hogdon HP-38, they're the same) and that is a pretty good choice for the variety you're interested in. In the 44 there is some really nice data pushing a 240 pill at low-recoil 44 special velocities ~6.5. In my 44 Mag Snubbie (Alaskan) I had to boost it to 7gr but it is still really soft. It is a nicely metering, non-temp affected powder that burns reasonably clean. Try 3.5gr under a 147 coated in 9mm sometime for a super nice action pistol load.
...

My testing with Win 231 (and WST) showed a distinct ‘reverse’ temperature sensitivity: http://www.doodieproject.com/index.php?/topic/5134-most-awesomest-competition-powders/page-5#entry156400


9mm
Winchester 231 (aka HP-38)
135 gr Bayou Bullet - Hitek Coated
Federal Small Pistol Primers
1.090-1.100 COAL
EAA/Tanfoglio Stock 2 - 4.5" Barrel, Polygonal rifling

3.5 gr 911 fps, 122 PF
3.6 gr 957, 129 pf
3.7, 980, 971, 131-132 pf
3.8, 989, 992, 133 pf
3.9 1007, 135 pf

10 rounds @ ~72F: Lo 994, Hi 1039 (Flyer), Avg 1004, E.S. 43

8 rounds heated on oil heater - avg 972.5, 131 PF
10 rounds from chest freezer - avg 1017, 137 PF. 3 'hot' rounds at 1032, 1041, 1042 fps.

WTF? Win WST AND Win 231 are both reverse temp sensitive? Who'da thunk it....

This powder seems a little more manageable than WST but is definitely showing primer flattening at 138 PF. Less at 131-134 PF.

I guess if you are Leadchucker and shoot in a predictable climate that this could be a good choice.

[Sal Picante]

My testing with Win 231 (and WST) showed a distinct ‘reverse’ temperature sensitivity: http://www.doodieproject.com/index.php?/topic/5134-most-awesomest-competition-powders/page-5#entry156400

I know we've gone back and forth over this before: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?22974-Just-starting-out-loads-for-HP-38-Win-231-and-cast-bullets/page2

I tested Win231 at 40F, 70F, 90F while you tested at more extreme temperatures.

Working with a 135PF load (which is a good margin of safety for Action pistol) I think you saw a +-3PF variation with Win231.
This was contrast to my experience where there was no measurable difference.

Enos has a few threads about Win231/HP38 https://forums.brianenos.com/topic/230930-hp-38-temperature-sensitivity/

The reality, however, is that Win231 is a nice broad-use powder that, with a respectable PF loading should make it at all reasonable temperature spreads.

[andre3k]

This is probably dated, I don’t see BE-86:
https://www.grafs.com/uploads/technical-resource-pdf-file/14.pdf

I switched to Power Pistol for a medium rate powder during the ammo panic and am quite happy in .38 +P.

It's the same burn rate as PP.

[GuanoLoco]

I know we've gone back and forth over this before: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?22974-Just-starting-out-loads-for-HP-38-Win-231-and-cast-bullets/page2

I tested Win231 at 40F, 70F, 90F while you tested at more extreme temperatures.

Working with a 135PF load (which is a good margin of safety for Action pistol) I think you saw a +-3PF variation with Win231.
This was contrast to my experience where there was no measurable difference.

Enos has a few threads about Win231/HP38 https://forums.brianenos.com/topic/230930-hp-38-temperature-sensitivity/

The reality, however, is that Win231 is a nice broad-use powder that, with a respectable PF loading should make it at all reasonable temperature spreads.

I’m good at figuring things out, but memory isn’t my long suit.

[boatbum101]

Unique has broad applications . Don't know if you're using a Dillon powder measure or not . A baffle & a cheap aquarium air pump attached to powder measure will reduce varitions in thrown charges . Unique also burns much cleaner in the upper range of its data for a given cartridge . Tried Universal Clays when it first came out & the only attribute was it metered better , but was unable to equal the performance / accuracy of Unique . So like 2400 I continue to use it because if you accept it's limitations & load accordingly it flat out works very well . Ramshot True Blue , Silhouette , Enforcer also would work for your applications . AA # 5 & 7 are also worth consideration

[revchuck38]

I’m using the book max charge, 5.8 grains with a 124 grain FMJ at 1.14” OAL for 1130 fps from my PX4. It does burn relatively cleanly at that pressure, just like it does in .357 Magnum. If I can get a powder that meters better and hits my velocity and accuracy goals, I’ll switch.

[Spartan1980]

I know we've gone back and forth over this before: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?22974-Just-starting-out-loads-for-HP-38-Win-231-and-cast-bullets/page2

I tested Win231 at 40F, 70F, 90F while you tested at more extreme temperatures.

Working with a 135PF load (which is a good margin of safety for Action pistol) I think you saw a +-3PF variation with Win231.
This was contrast to my experience where there was no measurable difference.

Enos has a few threads about Win231/HP38 https://forums.brianenos.com/topic/230930-hp-38-temperature-sensitivity/

The reality, however, is that Win231 is a nice broad-use powder that, with a respectable PF loading should make it at all reasonable temperature spreads.

WST is fine for action pistol power factor loads in 9mm and .40. But I can say from first hand experience that you don't want to use WST for full power loads in either caliber. When working up I wanted to see what would happen. With a coated cast 180 grain bullet at 169 PF in .40SW I was getting 28 for an ES. The same PF with a jacketed bullet of the same weight doubled that. Note that even USPSA major power factor is lower pressure than factory pressure levels in these calibers. WST works very well for low to moderate pressure rounds, but there are just too many other choices for full power, +P or NATO type loads.

[Sal Picante]

Unique has broad applications . Don't know if you're using a Dillon powder measure or not . A baffle & a cheap aquarium air pump attached to powder measure will reduce varitions in thrown charges . Unique also burns much cleaner in the upper range of its data for a given cartridge . Tried Universal Clays when it first came out & the only attribute was it metered better , but was unable to equal the performance / accuracy of Unique . So like 2400 I continue to use it because if you accept it's limitations & load accordingly it flat out works very well . Ramshot True Blue , Silhouette , Enforcer also would work for your applications . AA # 5 & 7 are also worth consideration

AA powders meter sooo well...

[spj]

Put me in the need more than one camp. Titegroup for all works if you just want to plink. I use it for bulk 9mm Dillion duties with 147's. Also like it for easy 44 mag loads. But if performance is wanted, CFE in 9mm is the ticket. Ramshot Enforcer goes real nice in 44 mag; however H110 is still king for shock and awe.

[hollywood63]

I've been having good luck with shooters world powder. Ultimate Pistol is very close to unique and meters better and is alot cleaner.