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Artemas2
11-21-2018, 04:04 PM
I ordered some Berry's for the first time because it is close to the profile of Hornady's HAP round, but for half the price.

Berry's lists the OAL at 1.169, Hodgon lists is for 1.150. I can't get a round to "plunk" and spin until 1.118. Still won't pass a case gauge until 1.075.
In case it was the crimp I slowly increased and rechecked it until it was clearly over crimped.

Hogdon lists a powder charge for 3.6-4.1 for that 1.150 length with unicorn .750 length brass.
Can/how do I safely guesstimate a starting load for an OAL that is .094 shorter than any published data? Am I safe to start with the 3.6 or do I need to go lower still given the substantial difference?

Berry's 124 Target Hollow point https://www.berrysmfg.com/item/bp-9mm-356-124gr-thp
Primer: WSP
Powder: Hogdon Titegroup
Brass: Range pickup, large length variations

LittleLebowski
11-21-2018, 04:18 PM
Not sure of the book answer, but I have done nearly the exact same thing. You can back off to 3.5gr if you're worried.

GuanoLoco
11-21-2018, 04:56 PM
Still won't pass a case gauge until 1.075.

#1: That doesn't make any sense to me - SAAMI spec is 1.169 IIRC and a 9mm case gauge usually doesn't care about OAL.

GuanoLoco
11-21-2018, 05:03 PM
Hogdon lists a powder charge for 3.6-4.1 for that 1.150 length with unicorn .750 length brass.
Can/how do I safely guesstimate a starting load for an OAL that is .094 shorter than any published data? Am I safe to start with the 3.6 or do I need to go lower still given the substantial difference?

It's never a bad idea to start low. 1.118 isn't really all that short as far as short loadings go, I've had Stock 2 barrels that needed 1.085" with certain bullets (Bayou 135gr IIRC).

Going shorter is a non-linear proposition. Reducing OAL by 0.01" doesn't amount to much pressure-wise and velocity-wise at 1.150. Reducing OAL by 0.01" at 1.085" and shorter will mean a much larger increase in pressure - and may STILL not change velocity all that much. I don't think you are anywhere near danger territory though.

I suggest starting low, maybe even 3.4gr and going up - it doesn't cost anything but a little time and some cheap components. In general I start low, using the soft primers I have available (usually Federal), then monitor for pressure signs (primer flattening / flow / cratering / piercing) and velocity as I gradually increase the charge until I hit my goal.

Artemas2
11-21-2018, 05:08 PM
#1: That doesn't make any sense to me - SAAMI spec is 1.169 IIRC and a 9mm case gauge usually doesn't care about OAL.

Got me. Cases all measure that same at .746. "Pass" also seems to be a loose term for me at this point.
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farscott
11-21-2018, 05:13 PM
Are you full-length resizing the cases? I suspect the combination of the tapered 9x19 case and some case bulging from barrels with less than optimum case support are combining to create your issue.

In any event, I would start with less powder. If the case volume is reduced by some percentage of capacity, I would back off the powder by the same percentage. In this case, the math appears to say the reduction is 8%.

GuanoLoco
11-21-2018, 05:36 PM
Are you full-length resizing the cases? I suspect the combination of the tapered 9x19 case and some case bulging from barrels with less than optimum case support are combining to create your issue.

In any event, I would start with less powder. If the case volume is reduced by some percentage of capacity, I would back off the powder by the same percentage. In this case, the math appears to say the reduction is 8%.

My point is that the math isn’t linear - there can be little difference at long or medium OAL’s but HUGE difference at very short OAL’s.

I’ve seen commercial 9mm loads as short as 1.05x” so short is relative with 9mm.

I’ve use the Lee U-die to help with case gauging issues but it is too hard use use by hand and works the brass too much - I get too many case splits. I’m currently using a regular Lee full-length resizing die for pre-processing many 10’s of thousands of cases (30-40K0 just in the last month or so.

https://ads.midwayusa.com/product/578115/lee-carbide-sizer-die?utm_medium=shopping&utm_source=google&utm_campaign=Reloading%20-%20Dies%20%26%20Shellholders&utm_content=578115&cm_mmc=pf_ci_google-_-Reloading%20-%20Dies%20%26%20Shellholders-_-Lee-_-578115&gclid=CjwKCAiAodTfBRBEEiwAa1hautA9-C2hV8hC3gbcMymc-wLoc0-iLjk-dmy0yHgvjoDkA-n-zsrWVBoCkXYQAvD_BwE

My case gauge failures with a BSPS Hundo Case gauge are about +/-1% with mixed range pickup brass, using a Dillon taper crimp die and a crimp of aboout 0.378-0.379”.

farscott
11-21-2018, 05:45 PM
My point is that the math isn’t linear - there can be little difference at long or medium OAL’s but HUGE difference at very short OAL’s.

I’ve seen commercial 9mm loads as short as 1.05x” so short is relative with 9mm.

In general, I agree with your point that the relationship is not linear. The math is a good place to start as one should reduce at least the amount of the capacity reduction. In other words, a sanity check.

revchuck38
11-21-2018, 07:49 PM
I’ve use the Lee U-die to help with case gauging issues but it is too hard use use by hand and works the brass too much - I get too many case splits. I’m currently using a regular Lee full-length resizing die for pre-processing many 10’s of thousands of cases (30-40K0 just in the last month or so.

I've been using the U-die with my RL550 and haven't noticed it to be too hard, but then I'm not processing 30-40k/month. :) I was using the standard Lee die until I broke the decapping pin and found there was little difference in the prices between a new die and a new stem. I think I've had one split 9x19 case in almost 40 years of handloading - I always lose them first.

GuanoLoco
11-21-2018, 08:32 PM
My reloading processes are probably a bit rougher on brass. I preprocess (quick manual QC + size/swage/decap) all my brass before reloading at 2400 RPH on a Mark 7 / 1050. I can do this as a background task while watching NetFlix & doing minor chores like cleaning guns, polishing parts, etc.

During the reloading process (also 2400 RPH) I’m doing a 2-step flare (Mr. Bullet Feeder funned in a Lee Expander) in the swage station, then the Dillon powder funnel in the powder station. No NetFlix during this process - I’m busier than a one-armed paper hangar.

Why to 2-step process? I like running at max speed, getting done ASAP, and I really dislike fixing jams duiring reloading. I also find that this process minimizes bullet topple and other issues inherent in high speed loading.

BUT - I get issues like case splits, etc. that I never experienced when using less harsh manual loading processes. Then again, most of my QC failures and the lesser case splits shoot just fine as practice ammo.

First World Problems...

taadski
11-21-2018, 09:54 PM
I load a Berry's plated 124 grain flat point. It has a very similar profile to the hollow point you linked. My OAL is 1.065, a length I originally worked up to accommodate shorter CZ chambers. I load it over 4.0 of Titegroup and it chronographs right at 130 out of a 4.25" barrel. It has never shown any signs of overpressure. On the contrary, it's pretty soft shooting and is very accurate. I've been shooting it pretty exclusively as a production load for a bunch of years.

Just to put it out there as a comparison, our duty load, 124 grain Federal HST +P comes out of the box at an OAL of 1.10, also substantially shorter than what is considered "standard" for the caliber. FWIW.

GuanoLoco
11-21-2018, 10:23 PM
I load a Berry's plated 124 grain flat point. It has a very similar profile to the hollow point you linked. My OAL is 1.065, a length I originally worked up to accommodate shorter CZ chambers. I load it over 4.0 of Titegroup and it chronographs right at 130 out of a 4.25" barrel. It has never shown any signs of overpressure. On the contrary, it's pretty soft shooting and is very accurate. I've been shooting it pretty exclusively as a production load for a bunch of years.

Just to put it out there as a comparison, our duty load, 124 grain Federal HST +P comes out of the box at an OAL of 1.10, also substantially shorter than what is considered "standard" for the caliber. FWIW.

BOOM! Nice post.

GNiner
11-21-2018, 11:14 PM
I load Berrys 124 HP over 4.1g of Titegroup at 1.120 COAL for a PF of 131 out of a Glock 19. I used to get a few per hundred that wouldn't pass a case gauge but they would always shoot in my Glocks. After about 10 years of separating out the case gauge failures and having ALL of them run fine in my Glocks, I just quit case gauging them all together unless I am doing a small run for a little used CZ.

GuanoLoco
11-21-2018, 11:40 PM
I load Berrys 124 HP over 4.1g of Titegroup at 1.120 COAL for a PF of 131 out of a Glock 19. I used to get a few per hundred that wouldn't pass a case gauge but they would always shoot in my Glocks. After about 10 years of separating out the case gauge failures and having ALL of them run fine in my Glocks, I just quit case gauging them all together unless I am doing a small run for a little used CZ.

I case gauge everything in a BSPS Hundo. I have a little ‘Channelled OCD’ going on - I just can’t help it.

My Glock 19s, Tanfoglio Stock 2’s and CZ P-07 & P-09 consume ALMOST all of them without complaint - including most split cases.

Maybe one in a ‘Case Gauge Failure’ Plastic Bottle of ~300 will fail to go into battery, and that case is usually a mess.

Artemas2
11-22-2018, 07:28 AM
You guys are awesome:cool:

I loaded a small batch last night with 3.7grns to a 1.115 OAL. If I get a chance to sneak out today I will use those up.


I load a Berry's plated 124 grain flat point. It has a very similar profile to the hollow point you linked. My OAL is 1.065, a length I originally worked up to accommodate shorter CZ chambers. I load it over 4.0 of Titegroup and it chronographs right at 130 out of a 4.25" barrel. It has never shown any signs of overpressure. On the contrary, it's pretty soft shooting and is very accurate. I've been shooting it pretty exclusively as a production load for a bunch of years.

Just to put it out there as a comparison, our duty load, 124 grain Federal HST +P comes out of the box at an OAL of 1.10, also substantially shorter than what is considered "standard" for the caliber. FWIW.

I primarily use a Glock 34 with an Agency arms barrel, but it is nice to not have to tailor make loads to fit my occasional CZ and eventual Beretta habit, so my intention is to get back to the 1.075 length.

Artemas2
11-22-2018, 10:55 AM
4 rounds WHO at 5 yards to test cycling
6 Rounds at 10 yards My plan was to test accuracy, but the cold weather and my hands so nope

Despite my goal of 1.115 and 1.075 there was a fair amount of variation, the shortest of each batch was put on the bottom of the magazine.
The 1.063 was noticeably sharper than the 1.075.
The 1.115 batch felt consistent for all 10 rounds
Between the 2 batches I could not tell the difference in recoil apart from the final shot.
Brass piled in a small circle with 6 inches of my right foot

I will probably stick with the 1.115 OAL just for more margin of error as I work up the powder charge. It also looks like I need to invest in a chronograph. Data is fun!

(1.118-1.111, not 1.011)
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2 primer strikes are discolored from the 1.075 batch. In general they have a more pronounced Glock rectangle
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olstyn
11-22-2018, 11:45 AM
It would not shock me at all if that FC case second from the right on the bottom row was the one at 1.063. That much flattening of the primer makes me a little bit nervous. You'll probably want to figure out what's causing the OAL variation you're seeing, and you're right that you should invest in (or borrow) a chronograph. Honestly, even a cheapo one will do - IIRC I paid about $120 for mine all in, including the tripod, and the readings it has given me have always matched up with the chrono at the USPSA state section match. If you want to get something fancy, you can certainly spend a lot more, but for most load development purposes, it's not really necessary to break the bank.

GuanoLoco
11-22-2018, 11:49 AM
32612

Those primer strikes look VERY deep but I dont’ see signs of primer flow or flattening. You could probably back off on the weight of your striker spring.

What’s going on with the two I circled? I’m hoping that is a trick of the light and not primer piercing.

Yes, WSP are softer primers, but those striker (firing pin) strikes seem quite deep.

olstyn
11-22-2018, 11:53 AM
What’s going on with the two I circled? I’m hoping that is a trick of the light and not primer piercing.

The strikes on those two are also noticeably off center compared to the rest.

Artemas2
11-22-2018, 11:55 AM
It would not shock me at all if that FC case second from the right on the bottom row was the one at 1.063. That much flattening of the primer makes me a little bit nervous. You'll probably want to figure out what's causing the OAL variation you're seeing, and you're right that you should invest in (or borrow) a chronograph. Honestly, even a cheapo one will do - IIRC I paid about $120 for mine all in, including the tripod, and the readings it has given me have always matched up with the chrono at the USPSA state section match. If you want to get something fancy, you can certainly spend a lot more, but for most load development purposes, it's not really necessary to break the bank.

The variation has been an issue for me, though not as bad as these. +/- .005s was normal for me with Jacketed bullets.

This is only the first year I have been reloading so I am still trying to pick up proper equipment and knowledge when I can.

Artemas2
11-22-2018, 11:59 AM
32612

Those primer strikes look VERY deep but I dont’ see signs of primer flow or flattening. You could probably back off on the weight of your striker spring.

What’s going on with the two I circled? I’m hoping that is a trick of the light and not primer piercing.

Yes, WSP are softer primers, but those striker (firing pin) strikes seem quite deep.

All my glocks hit deep including factory ammo, always figured it was normal.

Yep those two are black inside the primer strike, guessing that they are the ones that were seated below 1.075.

revchuck38
11-22-2018, 01:16 PM
I stopped being fastidious in working up loads when I got out of competition. But back then, when working up loads, I'd use the same headstamp brass, usually FC. That lessened the variations in OAL and velocity. Once I settled on a load I'd exclusively use that headstamp brass for matches. Practice ammo was loaded with whatever brass I had that was clean at the time. This worked with both revolvers and bottomfeeders.

FWIW, my go-to 9x19 load was 4.2 grains of TG under a 125-grain Zero JHP at 1.12" OAL. It was an honest 1.5"@25 yards load from my CZ-75B. I forget the velocity, but the PF was between 130 and 135.

GuanoLoco
11-22-2018, 09:39 PM
It would not shock me at all if that FC case second from the right on the bottom row was the one at 1.063. That much flattening of the primer makes me a little bit nervous. You'll probably want to figure out what's causing the OAL variation you're seeing, and you're right that you should invest in (or borrow) a chronograph. Honestly, even a cheapo one will do - IIRC I paid about $120 for mine all in, including the tripod, and the readings it has given me have always matched up with the chrono at the USPSA state section match. If you want to get something fancy, you can certainly spend a lot more, but for most load development purposes, it's not really necessary to break the bank.

Good catch olstyn!

I was so focused on the possible primer piercing that I missed the very clear primer flattening on that specific case. Between the flattening and the primer flow/piercing I’d say something was amiss on the circled case on the right and quite possibly both the circled cases. These were all WSP primers, right? OAL range? Charge weights?

I’ll often write the charge weight and even OAL on the sides of the cartridges when doing load testing. I’ll also arrange the cases in order of OAL - you can sometimes see detectable velocity differences for, say, 10 cases with the same charge weight running from shortest to longest case.

One more thing - selecting for cases with the same head stamp removes one more variable from the load workup process. Also, beg/borrow/buy a Chrono. If you want to borrow one, offer to replace it if you soot it or leave a $100 bill as collateral. Working blind with respect to velocity is doable for blasting ammo, but no bueno for competition or if you are serious about quality and consistency.