OG TDA

[jlw]

https://scontent.fatl1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/46449191_1057119797824740_1725302158238154752_o.jp g?_nc_cat=105&_nc_ht=scontent.fatl1-1.fna&oh=64a9049bf1496f860b23b276eff4f945&oe=5C6773D0

20th Century... You had to have been there.

It was my original duty pistol.

[SeriousStudent]

Nice pistol, Chief. I fondly remember the Smith and Wesson "Gun of the Week. :)

There is a big part of me that regrets parting with my 4566.

[HCM]

9mm or .40 ?

[jlw]

9mm or .40 ?

.40 (4006)

[BobM]

I was issued a 5906 for 16 years. I bought it when we traded them for M&Ps. I'd shoot it more if parts were more available.

[Cypher]

The only TDA as well as the only non 9MM I own.

https://i.postimg.cc/vmZ0jWM6/FB-IMG-1515897730682.jpg (https://postimg.cc/YvTNLLvp)

4006. I paid 200 bucks for it.

[Paul D]

32404

[Tamara]

32405

I would absolutely walk the earth with this thing. It certainly passed the test (https://booksbikesboomsticks.blogspot.com/2018/05/heavy-is-good-heavy-is-reliable.html) that most around here consider significant...

[GardoneVT]

Well look at this, a S&W semi auto thread.

It’d be ungentlemanly to pass up sharing my 645.
https://i.imgur.com/9eBggw1_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium

[MattyD380]

I just shot a steel match this Saturday with a stock 6904. I usually shoot my PX4CC... but its rear sight is currently on backwards (Gunsmith much?) and I don't have enough mags for my other guns. So, I grabbed the 6904.

I couldn't believe how much better I shot in DA. Never missed a plate. And while I go faster with the PX4 in SA, my DA hit percentage is much lower.

The 3rd gens are on point with their DA trigger game. My 6904's trigger is smooth and consistent with zero stacking. And it doesn't jostle the gun off target when the hammer falls (there was a recent thread on this). That 6904 has been a great gun since I got it (off the S&W forum) almost 3 years ago. I shoot it well. Carry it from time to time. It's always reliable. It even saved my dog's life out on the trails one day.

[Lester Polfus]

My first duty gun was a 5906, followed by a 4006. I had zero issues with both. Great guns. The 4006 was nice to have on a particularly bad day at work.

[MattyD380]

Well, since we're playing that game...

32406

I still want a 4506-1. With the adjustable sights. And a 5906.

[Cypher]

32405

I would absolutely walk the earth with this thing. It certainly passed the test (https://booksbikesboomsticks.blogspot.com/2018/05/heavy-is-good-heavy-is-reliable.html) that most around here consider significant...

Is that your 5906?

[Cypher]

The first handgun I ever bought was a S&W model 915. I bought it the day I ETSd. It's the only gun I regret selling. I remember it being pretty close to the size of my Glock 19.

If I had the discretionary income I'd buy another but I can't afford a range toy.

[Tamara]

Is that your 5906?

Yes.

[PD Sgt.]

My first duty gun was a 4506-1, I still have it (bought it when we transitioned to plastic). I also carried/owned a 915 and a 908s. Sold both of those off, still kind of miss the 908. For a bargain pistol, it shot really well.

I don’t shoot it very much anymore, parts, and people to work on them, are getting scarcer.

[rathos]

Not just OG TDA but OG SRT. S&W did the Short reset trigger before sig knew what one was...

[Lester Polfus]

The 3913 and it's plain jane cousin the 908 are great guns.

We issued 3906s to folks who couldn't wrap their mitts around a double stack and those were REALLY nice guns as well. I actually liked the way they sat in my hand (and I have big hands) better than the double stack guns.

[rathos]

We issued 3913s for the same reason to the folks that couldn't get their mitts around a beretta vertec. Most kept the 3913s until just last year transitioning to the Glock 17. A lot of our admin kept the 3913 when they retired.


The 3913 and it's plain jane cousin the 908 are great guns.

We issued 3906s to folks who couldn't wrap their mitts around a double stack and those were REALLY nice guns as well. I actually liked the way they sat in my hand (and I have big hands) better than the double stack guns.

[Jason M]

First issued duty gun was a S&W 669. When received it was well loved but ran great. After about 3 years we went to the 4566. Was issued a Glock about 3 years after that and have been with them ever since. I do miss the TDA guns.

[Duelist]

32409

[jlw]

Not just OG TDA but OG SRT. S&W did the Short reset trigger before sig knew what one was...

Yeah, the reset on the S&Ws was fantastic.

[PD Sgt.]

When I first came on we still qualified out to 50 yards with the 4506. No one ever failed because of the pistol.

The 3G models would also chamber a rock if you could get it in the magazine.

[Robinson]

Yeah, the reset on the S&Ws was fantastic.

That's one of the things I remember most about the 3rd Gen S&W pistols.

I also remember the ones I owned, several 45 and several 9mm over the course of maybe 10 years, were always reliable. My wife's gun until very recently was a 457 converted to so-called DAO with tritium sights.

[Sherman A. House DDS]

That's one of the things I remember most about the 3rd Gen S&W pistols.

I also remember the ones I owned, several 45 and several 9mm over the course of maybe 10 years, were always reliable. My wife's gun until very recently was a 457 converted to so-called DAO with tritium sights.

Mine will feed empty cases.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181116/38b6f721dd8aed3ecf31ec380a5d592c.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Beat Trash]

My first duty gun was a 5906. Back then we had about 1,200 of them in the field.

For some reason, we went through extractors. I actually had one break on me when trying to shoot a dog that was trying to remove my arm from my body. Didn’t leave me with a warm feeling for the gun.

You could always spot a gun with a replacement extractor, as the replacement parts were blackish and an original was plated to match the color of the slide.

I always liked the reset on the 5906’s. Later production guns had really nice triggers.

The only 3rd gen gun I still own is my 3913 off-duty pistol. Loved that thing at the time. Though due to a lack of support for parts, it’s retired.

[Doc_Glock]

Is there a definitive link or anything that can explain all these S&W numbers? Kind of like the Beretta chart from Lucky Gunner?

Edit: found it!

Thanks LGChris

https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/guide-smith-wesson-semi-automatic-models/

[Doc_Glock]

Another question: are these all decocker/safety guns, or can they be run decocker only like a G Beretta?

[Duelist]

Yeah, the reset on the S&Ws was fantastic.

Still is.

[Duelist]

Another question: are these all decocker/safety guns, or can they be run decocker only like a G Beretta?

There are true DAO, DAO with a slide reset, TDA with a safety/decocker, TDA with a decock only lever, and TDA with a SIG-type decock lever.

[Bigghoss]

Ignore the Beretta. (Unless we want to talk other DA guns. I have a bunch)

4506-1
https://scontent.fapa1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/25438631_10155683451475219_7953359966253985870_o.j pg?_nc_cat=109&_nc_ht=scontent.fapa1-2.fna&oh=329383ac735fff40b3c6a7da2b480e4a&oe=5C724976

3914(sold. Also the only one that wasn't a cop gun in a past life.)
https://scontent.fapa1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/19274947_10155152273005219_5695245360699066003_n.j pg?_nc_cat=108&_nc_ht=scontent.fapa1-1.fna&oh=f375108287fd10fd93f05bd9de5d9b87&oe=5C7588B3

Pair of 4006 TSW's (sold the bottom one)
https://scontent.fapa1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/30715863_10155998221740219_3430047907212951552_o.j pg?_nc_cat=107&_nc_ht=scontent.fapa1-2.fna&oh=83137e529bbc4ead9f9f4744cdaf9863&oe=5C6E9C9E

[jlw]

Another question: are these all decocker/safety guns, or can they be run decocker only like a G Beretta?


There are true DAO, DAO with a slide reset, TDA with a safety/decocker, TDA with a decock only lever, and TDA with a SIG-type decock lever.

The TSW models could be converted with to a G type decock only model with the addition of a spring under the left side decocking lever, but I can't vouch for that spring still being available as the pistols have been out of production for over a decade. Non-TSW models aren't convertible.

[GardoneVT]

The TSW models could be converted with to a G type decock only model with the addition of a spring under the left side decocking lever, but I can't vouch for that spring still being available as the pistols have been out of production for over a decade. Non-TSW models aren't convertible.

This is the only practical drawback to the pieces these days. Correspondence with S&W yielded news that any repair requiring a new frame or slide meant a deadlined pistol & an M&P voucher due to lack of parts. Small parts are available, but factory stock is uncertain.

[OlongJohnson]

This is the only practical drawback to the pieces these days. Correspondence with S&W yielded news that any repair requiring a new frame or slide meant a deadlined pistol & an M&P voucher due to lack of parts. Small parts are available, but factory stock is uncertain.

I'd try to negotiate that M&P nonsense to a revolver. At least an M&P 340 or M&P R8.

[Sherman A. House DDS]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181116/f1fab27a17f6ccf4c2833f646e379400.jpg

It’s safe to say I’m a 3rd Generation Smith fan.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[SW CQB 45]

duty carry

1998-2008

https://i.imgur.com/6zKGZ7Y.jpg

[MattyD380]

duty carry

1998-2008

https://i.imgur.com/6zKGZ7Y.jpg

Way to rock them 1076 grips.

[TheNewbie]

It's my understanding that SW had a lighter weight DAO style trigger available for the 3rd gen series. Like in the 4586.

What is that trigger like?

[SW CQB 45]

The palm swell 1076 grips were my favorite. SW delrin grips needed traction though.

[jlw]

This is the only practical drawback to the pieces these days. Correspondence with S&W yielded news that any repair requiring a new frame or slide meant a deadlined pistol & an M&P voucher due to lack of parts. Small parts are available, but factory stock is uncertain.

We really weren't planning to switch to Glock when we did. In fact, we were about to place an order for 15 more 4006s.

The agency sent me to an armorer class, and I received a special purchase certificate for any pistol at the wholesale cost. This was as S&W was rolling out the M&P. I called the number on the certificate to order a 5906TSW and was told that the third generation pistols had been discontinued. I spoke with our area LE sales rep and learned that S&W had 22 4006s in the vault left over from a recent CHP order. The sales guy told me the only way any more would be produced would be for a contract order to make it worthwhile and that if we wanted more 4006s we had better order them quickly.

The chief authorized me to begin evaluating other options. I did a T&E on the M&P, but we ultimately went to Glock.

The vouchering for M&Ps was an eventuality.

[OlongJohnson]

It's my understanding that SW had a lighter weight DAO style trigger available for the 3rd gen series. Like in the 4586.

What is that trigger like?

I have tested a 3953 police trade-in with the "enhanced/shortened" DAO trigger. Eight-pull average on a Lyman digital gauge was 11 lb, 7 oz, with the gun freshly cleaned and lubed. It is fairly smooth, though. I might experiment with somewhat lighter springs in that one. If it will reliably pop CCI primers in the 8.5-9 lb range, I think that will be about right.

Smoothness varies considerably. A lot of the pre-MIM, flash-chromed parts are extremely rough on the places where you can't see and they rub against each other. I tried a recent-production, brand new 5946 at the local Cabela's a few years ago that was actually ridiculously smooth. The MIM looked as nice as it felt. Almost bought one, but decided there are better options - like almost any current-production service pistol. I've seen a recent-production 3953 TSW model that was in severe need of a thorough deburr and smoothing of every part before being placed into service.

The 39XX variants sit in a niche that is really hard to match. Slim, especially the DAO models without control levers on the slide, but big enough to be shootable. Like an Officer-size 1911, but shrunk around the 9mm cartridge and with a DAO trigger. And super-reliable. If you consider the double-stack models, a USPc or G19 is a vastly better option. Unless you just happen to have the double-stack Smith, in which case you should enjoy shooting it until a part you can't find breaks, and then sell the magazines but keep the rest of it around to scavenge parts in case you need to for your 39XX guns.

[SeriousStudent]

....

The 39XX variants sit in a niche that is really hard to match. Slim, especially the DAO models without control levers on the slide, but big enough to be shootable. Like an Officer-size 1911, but shrunk around the 9mm cartridge and with a DAO trigger. And super-reliable. If you consider the double-stack models, a USPc or G19 is a vastly better option. Unless you just happen to have the double-stack Smith, in which case you should enjoy shooting it until a part you can't find breaks, and then sell the magazines but keep the rest of it around to scavenge parts in case you need to for your 39XX guns.

Agreed. I had a DAO 39xx, and I'm trying to recall the exact model number. Drooling moron that I am, I traded it for a spare Gen2 Glock 19.

It was a very size-efficient pistol.

[farscott]

Own more than a few. They are reliable yet more complex than modern striker-fired pistols.

[JAH 3rd]

I miss my 6906.

[BobM]

After being issued the 5906 in 1990, I bought a 3913 for off duty carry and a 4506 for shooting bowling pins and some IDPA, and occasional off duty carry. For a while I had two 3913s and RH and LH IWB holsters.

[SW CQB 45]

not sure how well the image will show. I found it on the net but that is my gun from around early 2000.

DPA5906.

Probably the best PC I owned and like a dumb azz, I sold it.

http://i.imgur.com/RnCKkjI.jpg (https://imgur.com/RnCKkjI)

[TheNewbie]

Does S&W still make 5946s for the RCMP? That has to be a big contract.

[HCM]

Does S&W still make 5946s for the RCMP? That has to be a big contract.

No.

S&W had limited production of third gen guns including the 5946 for RCMP and NYPD and other legacy contracts at their Maine facility but that ended about 2 years ago.

That was why NYPD replaced the 5946 on their duty gun list with G17s with 15 round magazines. We had a thread on it.

In addition to the RCMP and NYPD, the two biggest users of third gen Smiths were the CA Highway Patrol with 4006TSWs and the West Virginia State Police with 4566’s.

CHP is going to the M&P. No idea what RCMP or WVSP are going to when the guns / parts run out.

[Duelist]

Does S&W still make 5946s for the RCMP? That has to be a big contract.

My understanding is that they don’t make any of them at all. Which is a damn shame.

[HCM]

My understanding is that they don’t make any of them at all. Which is a damn shame.

They aren’t economically viable.

[MattyD380]

There's been more than a few "damn, they should bring back the 3rd gens" threads on this forum and others. Consensus always seems to be that the guns are too complex in terms of machining, parts and materials to be profitable bin today's market. They'd have to charge a grand or something outrageous to make any money--which not many would be willing to pay.

I have two thoughts:

-Field stripped a 92 lately? Cuts, angles, inner rails, outer rails, locking blocks, plungers, chrome rifling. Maybe there's some X factor I'm not aware of, but I wouldn't expect 3rd gens are any more complex to manufacture than a 92.

-Yeah, I'd pay a grand for a nice, new upgraded XX06. With G10 grips. And Trijicon sights. And a melonite finish. And low profile levers. And scandium... totally scandium. And while they're at it, they can clean up those janky barrel crowns you always see on 3rd gens. Yeah, I'd pay a grand for that.

I tried the Daewoo (i.e., Lionheart) thinking it would be more or less a reincarnation of a 3rd gen. And it is, in a lot of ways--except for the action. And the crummy safety. Which wiggled off in my holster. Haven't been too keen on carrying it since. But it is a really nice gun, aside from that.

[HCM]

There's been more than a few "damn, they should bring back the 3rd gens" threads on this forum and others. Consensus always seems to be that the guns are too complex in terms of machining, parts and materials to be profitable bin today's market. They'd have to charge a grand or something outrageous to make any money--which not many would be willing to pay.

I have two thoughts:

-Field stripped a 92 lately? Cuts, angles, inner rails, outer rails, locking blocks, plungers, chrome rifling. Maybe there's some X factor I'm not aware of, but I wouldn't expect 3rd gens are any more complex to manufacture than a 92.

-Yeah, I'd pay a grand for a nice, new upgraded XX06. With G10 grips. And Trijicon sights. And a melonite finish. And low profile levers. And scandium... totally scandium. And while they're at it, they can clean up those janky barrel crowns you always see on 3rd gens. Yeah, I'd pay a grand for that.

I tried the Daewoo (i.e., Lionheart) thinking it would be more or less a reincarnation of a 3rd gen. And it is, in a lot of ways--except for the action. And the crummy safety. Which wiggled off in my holster. Haven't been too keen on carrying it since. But it is a really nice gun, aside from that.

It wouldn’t be a grand. It would be closer to $1500. Basically the Gen 3 S&W Legion. That is before scandium.

Beretta 92s are cheaper now than they were 20-25 years ago. That is a combination of economies of scale, Beretta learning to build them in the most efficient manner possible and sunk investment in tooling. The relatively low prices of other guns like SIG SP2022s, S&W 442/642 etc.

[GardoneVT]

-Yeah, I'd pay a grand for a nice, new upgraded XX06. With G10 grips. And Trijicon sights. And a melonite finish. And low profile levers. And scandium... totally scandium. And while they're at it, they can clean up those janky barrel crowns you always see on 3rd gens. Yeah, I'd pay a grand for that.

Or one could get all of that in an M&P (less G10 grips) and pocket $300. Which is what most sensible shoppers will do.

[Trooper224]

http://a4.pbase.com/g10/64/521964/2/167266965.6uKfsxPC.jpg

[farscott]

A relatively rare gun from the period of "S&W of the week", the 5944. It is a DAO, alloy-frame gun with carbon steel slide using the 59xx magazines. Great DAO trigger. The markings on the slide indicate that the DAO action requires different parts than the TDA guns. The trigger, hammer, and firing pin retainer spacer (sear release lever without the foot) are specific to the DAO guns.

[Jared]

The one that I'd love to get my hands on is the 3906. I know it's the same size as a 5906 with half the capacity, but I don't care. I'd even be willing to try a Gen 2 639 or the like.

On the other hand. Every time one of these threads comes up, I get all antsy to play with the Smith 3rd gen guns. Then I go get one and do some shooting. I've found them to be accurate enough and plenty reliable. I always thought the ergos were a little behind a Beretta 92, but I can't really put my finger on why. Beretta triggers seem better to me too, even if all you did was drop a D spring in a standard 92FS.

Frankly though, I wish badly Smith still made the 3913/3953 type guns. A 3953 would be like a little magazine fed j frame for me and if a special run was made I'd probably find a way to get three. I know, I know, there's the Shield and G43. Tried both of them. Went back to the revolvers. I'd still give a 3953 a go.

[Bucky]

Well look at this, a S&W semi auto thread.

It’d be ungentlemanly to pass up sharing my 645.
https://i.imgur.com/9eBggw1_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium

Is that a philips head screw? Beautiful piece, but that screw really jumps out at you.

[Jason M]

Yes it is. The 2nd Gen guns used them to hold the right side safety/decocker lever in place.

[OlongJohnson]

There's been more than a few "damn, they should bring back the 3rd gens" threads on this forum and others. Consensus always seems to be that the guns are too complex in terms of machining, parts and materials to be profitable bin today's market. They'd have to charge a grand or something outrageous to make any money--which not many would be willing to pay.

I have two thoughts:

-Field stripped a 92 lately? Cuts, angles, inner rails, outer rails, locking blocks, plungers, chrome rifling. Maybe there's some X factor I'm not aware of, but I wouldn't expect 3rd gens are any more complex to manufacture than a 92.

I've detail stripped 3rd gens, Sigs, and a Beretta. What was going through my mind the whole time on the Smith was, "Dang, machining this frame would be really time-consuming and expensive."

As a mechanical engineer, my impression of the Smith is that it was designed by someone clever enough to always be able to figure out a way to squeeze one more sprocket into the box of cogs. Whereas the Sig action was designed by some Swiss watchmaking genius with a handful of parts that accomplish the same task in a deceptively simple and elegant ballet.

There are other threads where people with experience around large numbers of the Smiths in service talk about limited service life round counts before structural issues start to show up, components breaking, replacing those components requiring fitting by a trained armorer where on any other modern gun they are drop-in, etc.

The solution, if you want to carry one forever, is to wait for the LE lifts to end up on GB, and then buy six.

[jlw]

There's been more than a few "damn, they should bring back the 3rd gens" threads on this forum and others.

The romance with TDA is confined to a pretty small subset that is statistically overrepresented on this forum compared to the pistol market as a whole. I think it is an extension of AIWB, which also has a strong core here.

I have nostalgic feelings for the third gen S&Ws because I carried them as an issued weapon for so long, but if they went back into production, I would not be in line to purchase one.

[GardoneVT]

Is that a philips head screw? Beautiful piece, but that screw really jumps out at you.

I’ve never understood this concern. The bullets leaving the chamber don’t care about the shape of the safety screw, and Phillips head screws hold up half the parts in most machines we use. I’d rather see a legit Phillips head then some soft Torx T10 screw that rounds off from just thinking about unscrewing it.

[farscott]

I’ve never understood this concern. The bullets leaving the chamber don’t care about the shape of the safety screw, and Phillips head screws hold up half the parts in most machines we use. I’d rather see a legit Phillips head then some soft Torx T10 screw that rounds off from just thinking about unscrewing it.

For some reason, the screw attaching the starboard safety lever is prone to backing out and causing the safety lever to disappear. The design used on the 3rd Generation guns is much more robust.

[Bucky]

I’ve never understood this concern. The bullets leaving the chamber don’t care about the shape of the safety screw, and Phillips head screws hold up half the parts in most machines we use. I’d rather see a legit Phillips head then some soft Torx T10 screw that rounds off from just thinking about unscrewing it.

Not sure how you got concern out of my post. It just stands out, that’s all.

[Bucky]

For some reason, the screw attaching the starboard safety lever is prone to backing out and causing the safety lever to disappear. The design used on the 3rd Generation guns is much more robust.

When I said it jumps out at you, I was speaking figuratively. Sounds like you’re saying it does that in a literal sense. :rolleyes:

[farscott]

When I said it jumps out at you, I was speaking figuratively. Sounds like you’re saying it does that in a literal sense. :rolleyes:

Yes, people have tried various flavors of threadlocker over the years to keep the screw secured while allowing it to be removed for detail stripping. Most now just replace the safety body and levers with those from a 3rd Generation or run without the starboard lever. My 459 and 559 have the older single-side safety.

[MattyD380]

It wouldn’t be a grand. It would be closer to $1500. Basically the Gen 3 S&W Legion. That is before scandium.

Beretta 92s are cheaper now than they were 20-25 years ago. That is a combination of economies of scale, Beretta learning to build them in the most efficient manner possible and sunk investment in tooling. The relatively low prices of other guns like SIG SP2022s, S&W 442/642 etc.

Yes. Exactly. A Legion / Wilson-Beretta competitor, based on 3rd gen DNA. A Legion approaches that price range. So does a BrigTac/CenTac. People buy them. I think that consumer segment (i.e., us) would be interested in another premium DA/SA offering. For me, the Legion lacks a perception of authenticity and, in some ways, quality. And if you're not looking for a big, full-size option, Beretta-Wilson doesn't really have anything to offer. I suppose there is the CZ Custom SDP. Again... $1500. People buy them.

It make sense that Beretta can mass produce 92s more cheaply given their investment in automation/tooling. I realize Smith would never tool up to build metal DA/SAs on that scale again. But if it was a high-end, boutique offering... they could have a price point that worked. Maybe. And they were still making 3rd gens as of 2015ish.

[MattyD380]

I've detail stripped 3rd gens, Sigs, and a Beretta. What was going through my mind the whole time on the Smith was, "Dang, machining this frame would be really time-consuming and expensive."

As a mechanical engineer, my impression of the Smith is that it was designed by someone clever enough to always be able to figure out a way to squeeze one more sprocket into the box of cogs. Whereas the Sig action was designed by some Swiss watchmaking genius with a handful of parts that accomplish the same task in a deceptively simple and elegant ballet.

There are other threads where people with experience around large numbers of the Smiths in service talk about limited service life round counts before structural issues start to show up, components breaking, replacing those components requiring fitting by a trained armorer where on any other modern gun they are drop-in, etc.

The solution, if you want to carry one forever, is to wait for the LE lifts to end up on GB, and then buy six.

I'm not an engineer... so, I'm sure you know your stuff. I have been reasonably deep into a 3rd gen and there are definitely a lot of parts--the sideplate setup is kinda strange. Though, from a lay perspective, a Beretta 92 still seems quite complex. Even as a casual user, I can certainly see that Sigs are the most simplistic and mechanically elegant design of the 20th century DA/SAs.

That said... they were making 3914DAOs for the NYPD as late as 2015. Make some tweaks, add some features, sell custom-grade DA/SA pistols to gun forum hipsters.

[HCM]

I'm not an engineer... so, I'm sure you know your stuff. I have been reasonably deep into a 3rd gen and there are definitely a lot of parts--the sideplate setup is kinda strange. Though, from a lay perspective, a Beretta 92 still seems quite complex. Even as a casual user, I can certainly see that Sigs are the most simplistic and mechanically elegant design of the 20th century DA/SAs.

That said... they were making 3914DAOs for the NYPD as late as 2015. Make some tweaks, add some features, sell custom-grade DA/SA pistols to gun forum hipsters.

I think it is more correct to say they were assembling Guns for NYPD, RCMP etc as late as 2015.

My guess is the last few years they were building guns off old stock parts. Do they still have the tooling ? Is it serviceable? Do they still have the institutional knowledge to make these guns rather than just assemble them ?

[MattyD380]

I think it is more correct to say they were assembling Guns for NYPD, RCMP etc as late as 2015.

My guess is the last few years they were building guns off old stock parts. Do they still have the tooling ? Is it serviceable? Do they still have the institutional knowledge to make these guns rather than just assemble them ?

Maybe you're right. Makes sense. Though I think there were some minor nuances in how the Houlton frames/slides were marked/finished vs. Springfield (e.g., no trigger guard stippling). Not sure if that indicates new manufacture or leftovers.

At the end of the day, I can't speak to Smith's current manufacturing capabilities or engineer-level nuances regarding the 3rd gen design. But I can say that consumer demand (albeit niche) does exist for premium DA/SA offerings. Especially compact, concealable options; as we speak, a new thread about small, single stack TDA options came up. The 3913 and CS9 came up as options, as they always do. Currently, Smith has nothing to offer TDA consumers--Beretta, Sig and CZ do.

So... is Smith missing out on sales, while other companies are answering the call for these pockets of TDA demand? I'd say yes. Is a lot of sales? Probably not. But if it were at all feasible to evolve the 3rd gen platform into a premium, modern offering... I think they'd sell.

[farscott]

S&W may indeed be missing out on some sales of TDA pistols, but I am not sure S&W is missing out on profitable sales of TDA pistols. The demand for the 3rd Generation pistols started vanishing when Glock started making inroads into the LE market and individual purchasers followed LE's example. I remember in the early 1990s that Glock 17 pistols were about $200 less expensive than 5906 pistols, and it made a huge difference in sales. Both NYPD and CHP were more than happy to keep buying 3rd Generation pistols, but S&W turned down the sales.

One can even purchase used 5906 pistols today for less than $400, and S&W would be competing with their own old guns. I assume S&W would have to invest in new tooling (3rd Generation production started more than thirty years ago) and possibly additional CNC machinery for any TDA design, making the business case even worse.

S&W could go to a polymer lower TDA design to lower costs like the Walther collaboration SW99AS, but those pistols did not sell. It looks like a single-stack TDA gun the size of the G43 is wanted, but I suspect most buyers will opt for the simplicity of the Shield or the G43.

[MattyD380]

The demand for the 3rd Generation pistols started vanishing when Glock started making inroads into the LE market and individual purchasers followed LE's example.

Yeah, I don't think LE sales would be a reason to get back into the DA/SA game. I feel like agencies have made the shift to the striker fired world, and the pendulum isn't going to swing back anytime soon. Unless of course there's some epiphany that DA helps prevent NDs (I recall reading some studies to that effect).

I think Smith is missing sales from consumers: CCers who want DA/SA; potential Legion and BrigTac buyers who aren't finding exactly what they want; even 1911 consumers. These kind of buyers are willing to spend more, and are often looking for something premium. In my mind, any new TDA offering would have to be renamed, repositioned and rebranded as a new sub brand/line. Or fold it into their Pro Series, Performance Center lines. I'm in product innovation, so that's how I'm thinking about it.

[OlongJohnson]

I would much rather see S&W get religion on improving the quality of current production revolvers than spend time, money and focus trying to revive the past.

[jlw]

I would much rather see S&W get religion on improving the quality of current production revolvers than spend time, money and focus trying to revive the past.

Now that's funny.

[GardoneVT]

I think Smith is missing sales from consumers: CCers who want DA/SA; potential Legion and BrigTac buyers who aren't finding exactly what they want; even 1911 consumers.

S&W covers this base with the SW1911 line.

[MattyD380]

S&W covers this base with the SW1911 line.

Some of it. But there's a demand space--evidenced by the existence of Legions, BrigTacs and tricked-out CZs--that 1911s aren't serving.

[HCM]

Some of it. But there's a demand space--evidenced by the existence of Legions, BrigTacs and tricked-out CZs--that 1911s aren't serving.

How many of those guns actually get shot DA and how many are range toys ?

Even in the hey day of TDA duty guns S&W was in 3rd behind Sig and Beretta.

Given the increase in CCW and the number of mag ban states S&W’s niche would likely be resurrected versions of the 3913 and 3906.

[Jared]

Given the increase in CCW and the number of mag ban states S&W’s niche would likely be resurrected versions of the 3913 and 3906.

I've had this exact same thought, especially regarding a railed 3906 for a nightstand pistol in a ban state.

[Jason M]

Given the increase in CCW and the number of mag ban states S&W’s niche would likely be resurrected versions of the 3913 and 3906.

Given the popularity of the PX4CC I would expect to see some interest in the 6906 too. Maybe a 10round mag for those in ban locales.

[Screwball]

Given the popularity of the PX4CC I would expect to see some interest in the 6906 too. Maybe a 10round mag for those in ban locales.

I agree...

While a thinner gun would be better for a ban state, you can sell a double stack to all states, and sub in a 10 rounder for restricted states.

While NJ was 15 rounds, I never looked at it through that view, and wondered why Glock never did 15 round full size magazines. Didn’t do it for state law... did it for NYPD, and sold it commercially to increase profits.

Dollars definitely run the world. But I’d like to see some 3rd Generation guns come back.

[Beat Trash]

How many of those guns actually get shot DA and how many are range toys ?

Even in the hey day of TDA duty guns S&W was in 3rd behind Sig and Beretta.

Given the increase in CCW and the number of mag ban states S&W’s niche would likely be resurrected versions of the 3913 and 3906.

If they brought back a new version of the 3913, but used the stack and a half magazine design of the Shield so as to get it up to a 10 round magazine capacity, I think they’d sell.

[GardoneVT]

If they brought back a new version of the 3913, but used the stack and a half magazine design of the Shield so as to get it up to a 10 round magazine capacity, I think they’d sell.

Sig basically makes this pistol in the form of the P225A1 , and it’s hardly setting sales records.

[HCM]

Given the popularity of the PX4CC I would expect to see some interest in the 6906 too. Maybe a 10round mag for those in ban locales.

No, there are plenty of double stack guns with neutered mags. That’s not the niche.

[HCM]

I agree...

While a thinner gun would be better for a ban state, you can sell a double stack to all states, and sub in a 10 rounder for restricted states.

While NJ was 15 rounds, I never looked at it through that view, and wondered why Glock never did 15 round full size magazines. Didn’t do it for state law... did it for NYPD, and sold it commercially to increase profits.

Dollars definitely run the world. But I’d like to see some 3rd Generation guns come back.

Would you still want them if the QC was as bad as current S&W revolvers ?

[Jason M]

No, there are plenty of double stack guns with neutered mags. That’s not the niche.

Perhaps my analytic ability on potential marketability of the little gun is being compromised by the fact that I just like the 6906 and would not be disappointed to see them return. ;)

[Screwball]

Would you still want them if the QC was as bad as current S&W revolvers ?

Haven’t bought one in almost a decade (just checked, 04/2009)... so can’t speak directly to it.

When it comes down to it, my issue is more the internal lock than QC. I consider some Rugers, but only in like one or two setups. Revolvers... got my C&R license, which will likely cover a few of the ones I’m interested in.

Whether or not S&W’s QC is up to par, I do know if I get a lemon... their CS will get it squared away. If a company’s QC isn’t that great, I look at CS before deciding. If both suck... I don’t buy. Reason why I won’t go Mossberg again.

But to answer your question, as long as CS remains strong, I’d buy one. But must also bring back the parts supply, and keep them identical to the rest of the 3rd Generation. Hell, I’d just want them to start up production on 10mm magazines.

[rathos]

They also sell it for $900. If it was a $500 to $600 price it would be doing a lot better.


Sig basically makes this pistol in the form of the P225A1 , and it’s hardly setting sales records.

[HCM]

They also sell it for $900. If it was a $500 to $600 price it would be doing a lot better.

That is unrealistic. Metal frame TDA guns like the SIG, Beretta and Smith Third Gen Sind for $600-$700 20 years ago. You can make a profit making metal frame TDAs in the price range without cutting many corners. The only reason Beretta can do so is sunk cost and economies of scale.

A polymer frame TDA could be done well in that price range.

[Duelist]

If they brought back a new version of the 3913, but used the stack and a half magazine design of the Shield so as to get it up to a 10 round magazine capacity, I think they’d sell.

Not a one to me. I hate that magazine design, do not trust it, do not trust the execution of it they are making, and won't own one or a gun that uses it.

[rathos]

Hence why they don't sell....


That is unrealistic. Metal frame TDA guns like the SIG, Beretta and Smith Third Gen Sind for $600-$700 20 years ago. You can make a profit making metal frame TDAs in the price range without cutting many corners. The only reason Beretta can do so is sunk cost and economies of scale.

A polymer frame TDA could be done well in that price range.

[Screwball]

They also sell it for $900. If it was a $500 to $600 price it would be doing a lot better.

That is true with all of SIG’s Classic line...

Only one I own is a German P228. Refuse to pay their pricing on them. Only ones that interest me are their CPO guns. If they put new guns in that price range, and reduced CPO more, I’d have a few more SIGs.

If you were getting more for the money, I’d have no issue. But you get the same quality as Beretta or CZ... SIG has to have made up the original production costs.

[GardoneVT]

They also sell it for $900. If it was a $500 to $600 price it would be doing a lot better.

Exactly. Since $1,000 is likely the minimum price S&W could sell it for at a profit, the idea is DOA.

[HCM]

That is true with all of SIG’s Classic line...

Only one I own is a German P228. Refuse to pay their pricing on them. Only ones that interest me are their CPO guns. If they put new guns in that price range, and reduced CPO more, I’d have a few more SIGs.

If you were getting more for the money, I’d have no issue. But you get the same quality as Beretta or CZ... SIG has to have made up the original production costs.

You’re missing the point. It’s not about what they want to charge. They are priced as they are because of what it costs to make them.

[Screwball]

You’re missing the point. It’s not about what they want to charge. They are priced as they are because of what it costs to make them.

I respectfully disagree...

What processes does SIG carry out in a P226 that isn’t done in a comparable Beretta 92FS? Base guns... not a Legion verses a standard Beretta. I personally feel the Legion is even less of a purchase value... but I get the “club” membership they are trying to market. Just not worth it to me.

Price differences (all prices from Impact Guns)... a standard 92FS, actually an M9, $558.59. A P226R, which was the cheapest 9mm (don’t think they do non-railed P226s anymore, at least not on Impact), $829.99. I personally feel that is a good comparison. But if you want railed to railed... M9A1, $678. Either $271.40 or $151.99 difference between Beretta and SIG.

A CZ-75 likely could be done cheaper, with the lack of anodizing (I tend to see them priced as such), but I’m not comparing a P226 to a polymer pistol (Glock 17, for example). That, I agree, is a lot different production costs... and how Glock undercut their way into a lot of holsters.

Maybe I’m missing something, but companies have been cutting production costs over the years. External extractor... cheaper production costs. Stainless slides... more strength/mass to handle larger rounds, but also easier to produce than the older stamped/welded slides. Beretta did it, as well... with polymer controls. But it is still a large price difference between the two... and remember, SIG had the cheaper gun during the M9 trials, with Beretta doing a cheaper overall package.

[Trooper224]

I respectfully disagree...

What processes does SIG carry out in a P226 that isn’t done in a comparable Beretta 92FS? Base guns... not a Legion verses a standard Beretta. I personally feel the Legion is even less of a purchase value... but I get the “club” membership they are trying to market. Just not worth it to me.

Price differences (all prices from Impact Guns)... a standard 92FS, actually an M9, $558.59. A P226R, which was the cheapest 9mm (don’t think they do non-railed P226s anymore, at least not on Impact), $829.99. I personally feel that is a good comparison. But if you want railed to railed... M9A1, $678. Either $271.40 or $151.99 difference between Beretta and SIG.

A CZ-75 likely could be done cheaper, with the lack of anodizing (I tend to see them priced as such), but I’m not comparing a P226 to a polymer pistol (Glock 17, for example). That, I agree, is a lot different production costs... and how Glock undercut their way into a lot of holsters.

Maybe I’m missing something, but companies have been cutting production costs over the years. External extractor... cheaper production costs. Stainless slides... more strength/mass to handle larger rounds, but also easier to produce than the older stamped/welded slides. Beretta did it, as well... with polymer controls. But it is still a large price difference between the two... and remember, SIG had the cheaper gun during the M9 trials, with Beretta doing a cheaper overall package.

A key thing you're missing is that guns like the Sig and Beretta are plug and play designs. Nothing needs fitting. Not only is this a big benefit to the end user, but makes a huge difference in productions times and time is money. The old Smiths have numerous parts that required hand fitting and adjustment. This is a huge cost factor in terms of man hours and labor in a production environment.

[Jared]

One really cool thing about the Gen 3 Smith's is just how "complete" the line was over it's total life cycle. I mean, you had full size and compact double stack 9's and 40's. You had full size and compact single stack 9's. You had 45's to compete in the officer, commander, and government sizes. There were the 10mm's. Smith probably made the most variety in 10mm of anyone. Most of the guns and sizes had DAO variants. Heck, in 9mm full size double stack, you had you choice of steel or alloy frame, blue or stainless.

I was trying to think of another line of pistols that really presenter this level of size and capacity options over a period of time and all I could think of was the 1911, as long as you're willing to include the 2011's in with the 1911's.

So that makes the Smith third gens sort of cool in my eyes.

I doubt that many SKU's could ever be resurrected. What I think could be done is a polymer framed TDA similar to the third gen, perhaps optimized for easier manufacturing. Call it the fourth gen. Make a full size and compact double stack 9, get a small single stack 9 in there, see what happens.

[Chuck Whitlock]

Bear in mind that the Beretta has had the benefit of being "subsidized" with a USG contract. Colt rode that train for a long time before it bit them.

[HCM]

I respectfully disagree...

What processes does SIG carry out in a P226 that isn’t done in a comparable Beretta 92FS? Base guns... not a Legion verses a standard Beretta. I personally feel the Legion is even less of a purchase value... but I get the “club” membership they are trying to market. Just not worth it to me.

Price differences (all prices from Impact Guns)... a standard 92FS, actually an M9, $558.59. A P226R, which was the cheapest 9mm (don’t think they do non-railed P226s anymore, at least not on Impact), $829.99. I personally feel that is a good comparison. But if you want railed to railed... M9A1, $678. Either $271.40 or $151.99 difference between Beretta and SIG.

A CZ-75 likely could be done cheaper, with the lack of anodizing (I tend to see them priced as such), but I’m not comparing a P226 to a polymer pistol (Glock 17, for example). That, I agree, is a lot different production costs... and how Glock undercut their way into a lot of holsters.

Maybe I’m missing something, but companies have been cutting production costs over the years. External extractor... cheaper production costs. Stainless slides... more strength/mass to handle larger rounds, but also easier to produce than the older stamped/welded slides. Beretta did it, as well... with polymer controls. But it is still a large price difference between the two... and remember, SIG had the cheaper gun during the M9 trials, with Beretta doing a cheaper overall package.

Beretta has paid for the tooling fixtures etc for the 92 series no new cost there other than new cutters etc. plus the more you make something the more efficient you get at doing so. The benefits of a 30 year US DOD contract. The 92f is basically unchanged other than switching to a few plastic parts in low stress areas. You see the same thing with the SIG SP2022 ( French police cromtract etc) the S&W 442/642 - they are cheaper now than they have ever been.

SIG has changed production methods and design on the P226 several times during the same time span. Those changes cost money. They have also cut some of their TDA manufacturing lines in favor of other products. Trooper is also correct that both the 92 and 226 are assembled “plug and play” not fitted.

Another issue is quicker production rate / machine speed and lower reject rates for QC results in lower quality and more problems. Cheap, fast or good - pick 2. You see the same thing with the various grades of FN CHF barrels they offer other companies. BCM, Noveske, PSA and Spikes CHF barrels may al come from the same line at FN but you can see the difference in quality between the former and the latter. The difference between them is the production rates/ machine speed and the reject rate.

With the SIG Legion and the Brig Tac what you are supposed to be paying for is them taking the extra time to do it right in the first place, like they used to, and the extra QC checks along the way to catch it if they don’t. I have seen two bad Wilson berettas that never should have shipped. I’ve also seen many more Legions with issues. If SIG is charging a Cadillac price and not delivering that is a separate issue. The legion is hokey marketing but at least the early Guns had great triggers like the old SIG QC. I had hopes Bruce grays involvement and new processes like chemical polishing of trigger parts would mean a good gun under the hokey grey PVD. Of course SIG messed it up with bent sights and other issues. They newer legions have the typical random grab bag of triggers ranging from good to the worst I’ve ever felt in a SIG P series.

The fact is machine time and skilled (even semi skilled) labor is expensive. Our view of what things cost is often skewed by market forces other than what they actually cost to produce. You see this with AK’s - big glut of surplus parts kits in te 90s lead people to think AKs are cheaply made. Not the case. There was simply a bubble where supply far exceeded demand. Now people act shocked when a new WASR is 600-700 dollars and an Arsenal is $1k. They always cost about the same to make as a decent AR. Same with surplus LE revolvers, followed by 9mm autos and the current cheap surplus 40s. In the early 90s you couldn’t give away police surplus revolvers. Just like $99 SKS nothing lasts forever.

Your view of S&W third gen Guns, SIG’s Etcis skewed by LE surplus, CPO Guns etc all of which affect the market price. In the late 80s and early 1990s (before the 1994 AWB) the hey day of these guns, they were $600 to $800 new with a S&W and SIG being comparably priced.

When I bought my first handgun in 1988, a Taurus PT99, it was $350 vs $650 for a new 92f. When I learned what a POS the Taurus was I replaced it in 1990 with a used 92f with 5 mags for $525. My used P226 was $550 in 1992. At that time a new P226 was about $650. If you wanted night sights, k Kote or nickel it was closer to $800. Those guns were all QC inspected and test fired at the factory.

Now add in the fact S&W has lost much of the skilled labor they had 20-25 years ago without training replacements and it is likely they don’t have te skilled labor on the regular floor to fit parts for a third gen gun. 1/3 or more of the Current S&W revolvers I see have some defect. Factor in the limited pool of skilled labor and all of a sudden new 3rd Gen autos at the old QC level are $1500 / performance center propositions.

S&W has gone to the Taurus model- it’s cheaper to give a lifetime warranty than to maintain high quality standards since most people don’t shoot their guns anyway

[muzzleblast]

Personally, I love me some S&W 3rd gen goodness. Kinda like the DAOs though.

https://i.imgur.com/cWNCcRh.jpg

I also find the short ones interesting. Thanks belatedly to Paris Theodore's ASP.

https://i.imgur.com/hS0AWis.jpg

Gen 2s are also welcome here:

https://i.imgur.com/kIPZUdS.jpg

[OlongJohnson]

S&W has gone to the Taurus model- it’s cheaper to give a lifetime warranty than to maintain high quality standards since most people don’t shoot their guns anyway

Only in the very short term. Japan, Inc. took the opposite approach, and almost put Detroit out of business - multiple times.

In the really long term, we are all dead.

[HCM]

Only in the very short term. Japan, Inc. took the opposite approach, and almost put Detroit out of business - multiple times.

In the really long term, we are all dead.

It’s a little different as most people drive their cars regularly. Tamara has posted before about how most guns are either shot once or put into drawers unforced like ballistic lucky rabbits feet.

I have a pre-27 5” made in the late 1940s. Shoots great. The original owner and the people who made it are likely all dead. I have no doubt it will outlast me.

The S&W that made that gun doesn’t exist anymore, and neither does the S&W that made Screwballs prized 1006.

[GardoneVT]

It’s a little different as most people drive their cars regularly. Tamara has posted before about how most guns are either shot once or put into drawers unforced like ballistic lucky rabbits feet.

I have a pre-27 5” made in the late 1940s. Shoots great. The original owner and the people who made it are likely all dead. I have no doubt it will outlast me.

The S&W that made that gun doesn’t exist anymore, and neither does the S&W that made Screwballs prized 1006.

As much flack as current Sig CEO Cohen catches , from a purely business perspective he’s dead on the money. There’s a reason he’s not flipping burgers for a living ; most customers buy Sig pistols for aesthetics, not function.

As such if the pieces self destruct in 5000 rounds most of their customers won’t shoot the pistols enough to find out. The ones who will , they’ll deal with on a case by case basis. Informed consumers will shun the brand, but for every dedicated shooter that rightly stays away ten more collectors fill the market breach. Even LE won’t necessarily be swayed; the line troops will be stuck with substandard equipment, but as long as the City Manager/ Chiefs budget doesn’t change they won’t care either.

Don’t think for a moment Cohen is the only one following this plan. Matter of fact Taurus USAs former CEO tried to invest in product quality improvement and got sacked for it; bottom line is cranking out $200 disposaguns is way more profitable then selling quality $450 guns. Bringing back the 3rd Gens in any form is business suicide in a world where an M&P9 fits more hands, shoots more bullets and costs less to make and sell.

[HCM]

As much flack as current Sig CEO Cohen catches , from a purely business perspective he’s dead on the money. There’s a reason he’s not flipping burgers for a living ; most customers buy Sig pistols for aesthetics, not function.

As such if the pieces self destruct in 5000 rounds most of their customers won’t shoot the pistols enough to find out. The ones who will , they’ll deal with on a case by case basis. Informed consumers will shun the brand, but for every dedicated shooter that rightly stays away ten more collectors fill the market breach. Even LE won’t necessarily be swayed; the line troops will be stuck with substandard equipment, but as long as the City Manager/ Chiefs budget doesn’t change they won’t care either.

Don’t think for a moment Cohen is the only one following this plan. Matter of fact Taurus USAs former CEO tried to invest in product quality improvement and got sacked for it; bottom line is cranking out $200 disposaguns is way more profitable then selling quality $450 guns. Bringing back the 3rd Gens in any form is business suicide in a world where an M&P9 fits more hands, shoots more bullets and costs less to make and sell.

My agency only looks for a 10k round Service life in a handgun. If you are one of the few who shoots more than 1k rounds a year you just turn it in and get another at 10k. At that point they either destroy it or make it a dummy/sims gun.

Many agencies trade guns every few years because it is cheaper to trade them in than to pay the labor for preventive maintenance.

[OlongJohnson]

Many agencies trade guns every few years because it is cheaper to trade them in than to pay the labor for preventive maintenance.

This is the world we live in for almost all manufactured goods, sadly.

[revchuck38]

As much flack as current Sig CEO Cohen catches , from a purely business perspective he’s dead on the money. There’s a reason he’s not flipping burgers for a living ; most customers buy Sig pistols for snob appeal, not function.

FIFY.

[MattyD380]

Bringing back the 3rd Gens in any form is business suicide in a world where an M&P9 fits more hands, shoots more bullets and costs less to make and sell.

So it's business suicide to sell TDA guns? Pumping out polymer, striker-fired commodities surely isn't the only way to make a profit in the gun business.

Legions, BrigTacs, 1911s, PC revolvers... none of these serve the lowest common denominator gun buyer, nor were they intended to. The price point reflects that and people still pay it. My hypothesis is that Smith is missing an opportunity in the niche/boutique handgun market because they're not offering any TDA options. Yes, they'd have to offer any new TDA gun at premium price to be profitable. And yes, I believe people would pay it... just like they pay for custom 1911s, Wilson Berettas, Audis, Breitlings and Ruth's Chris steak.

More specifically, there is a very tangible void in the market left by the 3913. Now the P239's f-ing gone too. And no..... I'm not saying crank up the tooling and pump out 3913s again. I'm saying relaunch the guns with improvements and upgraded features, as part of new a new premium TDA product line.

[GardoneVT]

So it's business suicide to sell TDA guns? Pumping out polymer, striker-fired commodities surely isn't the only way to make a profit in the gun business.



No, but it’s the best way by far.

What do the 1911, PC revolvers, Sig Legions, and BrigTac share in common? Premium branding and direct connection to elite unit and competition users. Beretta made the 92G-SD years before the WC pistols, and despite being qualitatively similar sold slower then molasses in a Montana winter. Slap a WC roll mark on the slide of the same pistol and bam, instant fame and sales volume. The others are similar.

Besides us enthusiasts and retired lawmen, a 3rd Gen S&W is basically an unknown. Even the 1006 isn’t well known to laypeople, and would basically look like a DA 10mm 1911 to the uninitiated. Hardly a compelling business case , and even more so when the cheapest profitable price S&W could sell it for is exponentially higher then a basic Glock 20/XDM 10mm.

Had SEALs used the 1006 to cap OBL it’d be a different matter, but from where I sit any reissue of the 3rd gen is a business nonstarter. Judging from S&Ws refusal to build them it seems they agree.

[Screwball]

A key thing you're missing is that guns like the Sig and Beretta are plug and play designs. Nothing needs fitting. Not only is this a big benefit to the end user, but makes a huge difference in productions times and time is money. The old Smiths have numerous parts that required hand fitting and adjustment. This is a huge cost factor in terms of man hours and labor in a production environment.


Beretta has paid for the tooling fixtures etc for the 92 series no new cost there other than new cutters etc. plus the more you make something the more efficient you get at doing so. The benefits of a 30 year US DOD contract. The 92f is basically unchanged other than switching to a few plastic parts in low stress areas. You see the same thing with the SIG SP2022 ( French police cromtract etc) the S&W 442/642 - they are cheaper now than they have ever been.

SIG has changed production methods and design on the P226 several times during the same time span. Those changes cost money. They have also cut some of their TDA manufacturing lines in favor of other products. Trooper is also correct that both the 92 and 226 are assembled “plug and play” not fitted.

Another issue is quicker production rate / machine speed and lower reject rates for QC results in lower quality and more problems. Cheap, fast or good - pick 2. You see the same thing with the various grades of FN CHF barrels they offer other companies. BCM, Noveske, PSA and Spikes CHF barrels may al come from the same line at FN but you can see the difference in quality between the former and the latter. The difference between them is the production rates/ machine speed and the reject rate.

With the SIG Legion and the Brig Tac what you are supposed to be paying for is them taking the extra time to do it right in the first place, like they used to, and the extra QC checks along the way to catch it if they don’t. I have seen two bad Wilson berettas that never should have shipped. I’ve also seen many more Legions with issues. If SIG is charging a Cadillac price and not delivering that is a separate issue. The legion is hokey marketing but at least the early Guns had great triggers like the old SIG QC. I had hopes Bruce grays involvement and new processes like chemical polishing of trigger parts would mean a good gun under the hokey grey PVD. Of course SIG messed it up with bent sights and other issues. They newer legions have the typical random grab bag of triggers ranging from good to the worst I’ve ever felt in a SIG P series.

The fact is machine time and skilled (even semi skilled) labor is expensive. Our view of what things cost is often skewed by market forces other than what they actually cost to produce. You see this with AK’s - big glut of surplus parts kits in te 90s lead people to think AKs are cheaply made. Not the case. There was simply a bubble where supply far exceeded demand. Now people act shocked when a new WASR is 600-700 dollars and an Arsenal is $1k. They always cost about the same to make as a decent AR. Same with surplus LE revolvers, followed by 9mm autos and the current cheap surplus 40s. In the early 90s you couldn’t give away police surplus revolvers. Just like $99 SKS nothing lasts forever.

Your view of S&W third gen Guns, SIG’s Etcis skewed by LE surplus, CPO Guns etc all of which affect the market price. In the late 80s and early 1990s (before the 1994 AWB) the hey day of these guns, they were $600 to $800 new with a S&W and SIG being comparably priced.

When I bought my first handgun in 1988, a Taurus PT99, it was $350 vs $650 for a new 92f. When I learned what a POS the Taurus was I replaced it in 1990 with a used 92f with 5 mags for $525. My used P226 was $550 in 1992. At that time a new P226 was about $650. If you wanted night sights, k Kote or nickel it was closer to $800. Those guns were all QC inspected and test fired at the factory.

Now add in the fact S&W has lost much of the skilled labor they had 20-25 years ago without training replacements and it is likely they don’t have te skilled labor on the regular floor to fit parts for a third gen gun. 1/3 or more of the Current S&W revolvers I see have some defect. Factor in the limited pool of skilled labor and all of a sudden new 3rd Gen autos at the old QC level are $1500 / performance center propositions.

S&W has gone to the Taurus model- it’s cheaper to give a lifetime warranty than to maintain high quality standards since most people don’t shoot their guns anyway


The S&W that made that gun doesn’t exist anymore, and neither does the S&W that made Screwballs prized 1006.

Think something is being alluded to that I really wasn’t saying... just wanted to clarify a little bit.

I’d love to see a bring back of 3rd Generation guns. Big fan of them. But I am not saying it is in the cards. S&W won’t do them (were clear about it up to the end), and as mentioned, probably couldn’t get back to that output for a few years of trial/error/learning curve... if even possible. If S&W did put them out, which they won’t, I’d probably buy one... depending on what model came out (a 1016... hell yea [emoji106]).

My price argument was strictly in regards to SIG’s Classic line... which I do feel are overpriced. Was a separate statement to whether or not S&W should reintroduce the metal guns. Don’t remember what those last models of S&Ws were priced at, since I really wasn’t too interested, but I’m sure you saw them considerably more than M&Ps.

For the DoD contract, yes... Beretta did have some backing with that. However, in that same time period... what else did Beretta bring to the market that did well? The 8000 Series, 9000? At the tail end, you saw the PX4/CX4, some pocket guns (think those were when Beretta realized they weren’t going to have the military contract forever), and eventually the APX. They definitely rode that hell out of the 92 bike... and rightly so. S&W and SIG did the same, and SIG still has some life in theirs (Beretta, too).

Same time period, SIG had A LOT more L/E agency use (how many State and Federal agencies have issued them). While I’ll agree that they may have done a lot in regards to production changes, there is no way they are still paying that off. And even with the changes, a few of them did make production easier... like the 9mm P229 frames switching to .40 frames, also gaining the extra rounds. If they are paying off costs, most would likely have been self-inflicted, like the P224. I did like the concept, but even still, that was probably not a great money making decision.

When I bought my Beretta (tail of the Federal AWB; 2004), which was my first new pistol, I looked at a few guns. Standard 92FS, I believe was right around $600 (may have been $550). The dealer showed me something that he thought was awesome... a P226 that looked like it was dragged behind a truck, but was “rebuilt.” Guessing new springs, and I am sure the gun would function fine... but same $600 price tag (or $550... but know it was identical). First gun... wasn’t buying something well used. So, $750 bought my 92 Brigadier Inox. Didn’t really look into other SIGs, but I wished I did to have another price reference to go off.

Hope nobody takes my post as anti-X company. Most larger companies will get you an awesome pistol with the purchase... and if not, most will make it right. SIG, they aren’t my favorite... pricing, the P320 fiasco (how they handled it), all are issues I have with them as a company. However, I still feel the P320 is the best modular system out. My P228 is my only Classic SIG, but had no issue buying a P938 (was before all the other Shield/43/XDS offerings... so was an awesome small gun when I got it). People like SIG, and nothing wrong with that. My view, which is worth as much as people pay me for it... and after the Disney cruise, I’m pretty damn broke. [emoji6]


Besides us enthusiasts and retired lawmen, a 3rd Gen S&W is basically an unknown. Even the 1006 isn’t well known to laypeople, and would basically look like a DA 10mm 1911 to the uninitiated. Hardly a compelling business case , and even more so when the cheapest profitable price S&W could sell it for is exponentially higher then a basic Glock 20/XDM 10mm.

Had SEALs used the 1006 to cap OBL it’d be a different matter, but from where I sit any reissue of the 3rd gen is a business nonstarter. Judging from S&Ws refusal to build them it seems they agree.

And I agree with this completely...

But for sure, I wouldn’t lug around a loaded 1006, along with a combat load. Boat anchor is definitely an understatement.

[MattyD380]

Besides us enthusiasts and retired lawmen, a 3rd Gen S&W is basically an unknown.

My thesis with this crusade is that we're not selling 3rd gens. We're selling something new. Something like... "The new Executive Carry line from Smith & Wesson's Performance Center."

You and I (and a decently sized pool of others) would recognize it as a modernized, tricked-out 3913 without a shitty-looking barrel crown. Lay consumers would see a premium all-metal pistol with great lines, a great trigger and a slick finish... plus this cool "new feature" of being able to pull the trigger when the hammer's down. "Say... you can't do that with a 1911!!!"

Honestly, maybe a 39-2-inspired aesthetic is the way to go. Wood grips. Smith medallion. I'd say stick with melonite. But I could be into some old school glossy blueing, I guess. You could go a bit more tactical... or a bit more traditional.

[OlongJohnson]

More specifically, there is a very tangible void in the market left by the 3913. Now the P239's f-ing gone too. And no..... I'm not saying crank up the tooling and pump out 3913s again. I'm saying relaunch the guns with improvements and upgraded features, as part of new a new premium TDA product line.

Going back to my previous point about the complexity of the internal machining of the frame. It's not just the details, or the number of components, but the complexity and manufacturability of the components, and the tolerances that must be held with complex geometry and multi-part assemblies.

The third-gens are accurate and reliable, but extremely expensive to manufacture, have short life times before small things start breaking, uncompetitive lifetimes before big things start breaking, and require well-trained, "old school" armorers to get them back up and running. Parts (extractors, replacement barrels, etc.) have to be fitted by hand at the time of manufacture and for service replacement. Basically, they are a product of the bad old days.

If a revival was to begin to make sense even just on paper, the whole action would have to be redesigned to be vastly simplified and be more efficient to manufacture. As someone noted, their complexity enabled them to be everything to everybody. That was good, but also part of their downfall.

I would be very interested in something like a 3953 with simplified guts. Keep the outside the same (OK, skip the checkering on the front of the trigger guard), but clean-sheet the inside. Go with the larger, full-length rails of the later TSW models for durability, but keep it optimized for 9mm. Don't make it big to work with .40 what's-that-company. Go with a barrel hood chamber lockup and a straight barrel that fits in the front of the slide without a bushing, like any modern pistol. Contemplate a steel frame insert or something for the unlocking barrel stop so they aren't wedging the barrel against the aluminum frame, and so they can use a MIM part in place of a bunch of machining operations on the frame. Do an extremely simple DAO action, and no other options. Excellent templates for such an action exist in the LCP Custom, Beretta 92/6D models, and the Sig P250. All of these, when properly un-kittened, are outstandingly smooth and shootable (except the LCP, which is too small for me). The SD9VE is kinda sorta like that, but the one I got ultimately proved resistant to un-kittening due to poor quality machining of the slide. Design it to work with tolerances that can be reliably met by low-cost production methods and equipment that are in service.

[MattyD380]

Going back to my previous point about the complexity of the internal machining of the frame. It's not just the details, or the number of components, but the complexity and manufacturability of the components, and the tolerances that must be held with complex geometry and multi-part assemblies.

The third-gens are accurate and reliable, but extremely expensive to manufacture, have short life times before small things start breaking, uncompetitive lifetimes before big things start breaking, and require well-trained, "old school" armorers to get them back up and running. Parts (extractors, replacement barrels, etc.) have to be fitted by hand at the time of manufacture and for service replacement. Basically, they are a product of the bad old days.

If a revival was to begin to make sense even just on paper, the whole action would have to be redesigned to be vastly simplified and be more efficient to manufacture. As someone noted, their complexity enabled them to be everything to everybody. That was good, but also part of their downfall.

I would be very interested in something like a 3953 with simplified guts. Keep the outside the same (OK, skip the checkering on the front of the trigger guard), but clean-sheet the inside. Go with the larger, full-length rails of the later TSW models for durability, but keep it optimized for 9mm. Don't make it big to work with .40 what's-that-company. Go with a barrel hood chamber lockup and a straight barrel that fits in the front of the slide without a bushing, like any modern pistol. Contemplate a steel frame insert or something for the unlocking barrel stop so they aren't wedging the barrel against the aluminum frame, and so they can use a MIM part in place of a bunch of machining operations on the frame. Do an extremely simple DAO action, and no other options. Excellent templates for such an action exist in the LCP Custom, Beretta 92/6D models, and the Sig P250. All of these, when properly un-kittened, are outstandingly smooth and shootable (except the LCP, which is too small for me). The SD9VE is kinda sorta like that, but the one I got ultimately proved resistant to un-kittening due to poor quality machining of the slide. Design it to work with tolerances that can be reliably met by low-cost production methods and equipment that are in service.

Great info. Really cool ideas on simplifying and modernizing the design. Using a frame insert to handle the camming action also occurred to me. Kinda like Sig has, with the locking inserts. Barrel hood lockup is a good idea too. I'd also want to see the sideplate assembly go away (I broke one) and that goofy trigger return leaf spring. But that's about the extend of my engineering insights.

I have a Daewoo DP-51c and while it's a dead-ringer for a 3rd gen in a lot of ways, there's a lot of mechanical differences. For starters, they went to a single barrel lug (like most tilt-barrel pistols) instead of the angled nubs/frame lugs on either side of the feed ramp. I always wondered why Smith used that system, instead of a single BHP-like lug. Maybe it was patent related? I suppose the 39 was the first tilt-barrel 9mm after the BHP. Unless you count obscure 9mm 1911s.

[Duelist]

... I wish badly Smith still made the 3913/3953 type guns. A 3953 would be like a little magazine fed j frame for me and if a special run was made I'd probably find a way to get three. I know, I know, there's the Shield and G43. Tried both of them. Went back to the revolvers. I'd still give a 3953 a go.

I’m your huckleberry:
32505
32506
Unfortunately, they aren’t really analogues. The 3953/3913 are bigger and heavier, and not really pocket guns. They are slim, comfortable, good shooters, and easy to carry, but an airweight jframe carries in a pocket or ankle or Smartcarry a heck of a lot easier. Belt or shoulder holster, let’s get one of the 39xx guns out.

[HopetonBrown]

I find it hilarious that people think a resurrected 3rd Gen S&W would sell to anyone other than 9 regular posters on Pistol-forum.

[MattyD380]

I find it hilarious that people think a resurrected 3rd Gen S&W would sell to anyone other than 9 regular posters on Pistol-forum.

What makes it so blatantly obvious to you that it wouldn't?

Certainly it's not the fact that many thousands of DA/SA guns are sold each year, from all major manufacturers... except Smith & Wesson. And Glock. Or the fact that there's no shortage of threads, on multiple forums, about the lack of small, single stack DA/SA 9s on the market. I mean, Springfield did it. But I don't think the XDE is high-end enough to appeal to the crowd who really wants this kind of a thing. I tend to think we get hung up on this fatalistic notion that DA/SA is dead or dying--there's still a shit ton of crunchentickers sold every year. Look at H&K. They didn't have a striker fired gun until 2014. CZ didn't until the P10c, like, 2 years ago.

If Smith did it right, it would sell. And it would sell well.

[JAH 3rd]

Exactly. Since $1,000 is likely the minimum price S&W could sell it for at a profit, the idea is DOA.

We can look at the S&W Classic line of revolvers and see what the MSRP is. I know on the street the price would be cheaper, but still expensive. The classic line gives us insight into pricing by S&W. Dan Wesson is making their revolver again and it's expensive. It's difficult to compete against polymer.

[modrecoil]

Love em. Especially the 3913s. Wish I shot them better.
32508

[Rock185]

I've had a bunch of Smith TDA guns. Most are gone, but still have a few, in 9mm, 10mm and .45.

[SW CQB 45]

I've had a bunch of Smith TDA guns. Most are gone, but still have a few, in 9mm, 10mm and .45.


is that a DPA5906 and the black one is a 4566 PC?

[Rock185]

SW CQB 45, Yes, 4" and 5" DPA 5906s. I sold my all stainless 4566 CQB. The one in the photo is the alloy framed 4563 CQB version.

[SW CQB 45]

Cool. I am slipping. Been out of the PC game for a while.

Is the bottom one a frame mounted decocker 10mm (1026?)

[iWander]

https://scontent.fatl1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/46449191_1057119797824740_1725302158238154752_o.jp g?_nc_cat=105&_nc_ht=scontent.fatl1-1.fna&oh=64a9049bf1496f860b23b276eff4f945&oe=5C6773D0

20th Century... You had to have been there.

It was my original duty pistol.Was my first issued duty gun as well. Carried a G22 when I was part time. Took me a time to adjust to the Smith! Recently acquired a buddy's original duty weapon, a 645. The differences between the generations are interesting.

[Trooper224]

At the local range where I shoot, up on the wall is one of those large promo type photos that features an attractive woman shooting an S&W third gen pistol. Every time I see it, it makes me smile.

[JonInWA]

In the 1990s throught the early 2000s, I owned some interesting TDAs; SIG P220, SIG P225, P228, P229 (with both .40 and .357 SIG barrels), Sigpro 2340 (with both .40 and .357 SIG barrels), Walther P1, P5, P5C, P99, Ruger P85, P89, P94, P97, Beretta 92 Compact L Type M, CZ83 (inboth .380 and 9 x 18 Makarov), CZ75B, and a Browning BDM.

Out of that list, the only one that I've kept is my Ruger P89. The only ones that I really regret not hanging on to are the Walther P5 and the Sigpro 2340. It's not that the others were bad, or without desirable features or performance, it's just that to me the juice they provided, for various reasons and at various times simply didn't warrant the squeeze. And improvements in polymer-framed platforms (in my case, Glock and HK) essentially obsoleted them for my purposes

While it may be a bit of an aberration with it's exceptional accuracy (primarily as a beneficiary of a company-wide product improvement program in 2007, which the P89 was a short beneficiary of before Ruger ended their commercial marketing later in 2007) I can honestly say that my Ruger P89 provides me with an exceptionally accurate, durable, reliable and decently ergonomic TDA. And one with a decent (albeit long) DA triggerpull, and a reasonably crisp and short-resetting SA. Magazines are easily available, and Ruger actually increased their quality during the P89 production cycle (as they did with several other components, noticeably the safety levers and grips, and barrel-to-slide fit). And the P85/P89 guns were significantly over-engineered with the goal of success with the XM9 and XM10 trials; the P85 never made it to the XM9 trials, and the later variant submitted for the XM10 trials performed well and in short order became the P89, but the Beretta M9 performed sufficiently well to prevail as the XM10 trial winner, retaining the DoD contract).

https://i.imgur.com/2iqbtuk.jpg

Best, Jon

[Bigghoss]

I need to get a P89DC. I have a P94, 95 and 97, all decock only.

[JonInWA]

I need to get a P89DC. I have a P94, 95 and 97, all decock only.

Look for a 305- or later serial#; they're the ones with the improved barrel-to-slide relationship. The breechblock protrudes slightly above the slide plane at the rear of the breechblock. Also make sure that you get the appropriate magazines in relationship to the serial #; in mid-production cycle, Ruger modified the magazines, so the newer ones sit a bit higher in the receiver, enabling a slightly straighter magazine-to-chamber feeding. The Ruger website provides the proper magazines by serial #; just go to shopruger.com and check out the P85/P89 magazines.

Best, Jon

[Rock185]

SW CQB 45, Yes, bottom gun is a 1026.

[Sherman A. House DDS]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181120/e13b1071e462f0fb58798996ff5e6e30.jpg

This is on the wall at the Memphis FTU.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Dorsai]

I've read the thread and had a few thoughts on the idea of resurrecting the 3rd Gen S&W guns. First, look at what people are enthused about that is different from traditional SA and striker fired guns, and what is different about the modern/custom SA/DA guns. People want a gun that feels good in the hand, which means a high grip, undercut trigger card and a trigger guard that doesn't wear a sore spot on your middle finger after shooting it a short time. Where there is a real or perceived advantage to a DA first shot, it isn't because it is a heavy trigger, it is because it is a longer trigger press. The goal should be something like the Langdon or Wilson Combat Beretta triggers. 7lb DA, smooth, no stacking, minimal overtravel. I've got an old Walther P1, the aluminum framed version that replaced the P-38 of WWII. The DA trigger is heavy and there is a lot of overtravel that causes the muzzle to jerk to the side. It sucks, but it's still better than my neighbor's 1945 P-38. I also have a 39-1 sitting in my bathroom drawer and it's better than the P1, but still not up to Beretta standards. So improve the trigger pull, give it a narrower, polished and rounded trigger. Get rid of the magazine safety!!!! Better checkering on the front and back straps. Dovetail front and rear sights, AND make it C.O.R.E. It doesn't cost that much to mill the slide as a production standard and RDS is becoming the standard. Almost forgot the most important change! De-cocker only, not a safety. Think Beretta G model. The Sig style decocker didn't go over well, but that was one of the things I liked about Sigs. At least you didn't rip up your hand or put the gun on safe trying to do a fast malfunction clearance. Front cocking serrations as well. Dehorn the gun. That's about all I can think of. Make it classy.

[Screwball]

Almost forgot the most important change! De-cocker only, not a safety. Think Beretta G model. The Sig style decocker didn't go over well, but that was one of the things I liked about Sigs. At least you didn't rip up your hand or put the gun on safe trying to do a fast malfunction clearance.

That was a big benefit of the TSW guns...

A lot came with a decocker only setup, like a Beretta G model, but there were ones with a safety. Whichever one you got, buy the other control, and you can convert it (check decocker timing, though).

My 1006 slide was recently milled for the TSW cut, and the gunsmith installed the decocker only setup. Love that setup, as all my Berettas are G models (from factory or converted).

[ER_STL]

I've had a bunch of Smith TDA guns. Most are gone, but still have a few, in 9mm, 10mm and .45.Is it weird to say that I'm slightly aroused by that picture?

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

[Balisong]

Came across this deal and it made me think of all the TDA Smith fans here. CHP 4006 TSW decock-only for $385 with 3 mags

http://www.summitgunbroker.com/?redirect=false

[JSGlock34]

Came across this deal and it made me think of all the TDA Smith fans here. CHP 4006 TSW decock-only for $385 with 3 mags

http://www.summitgunbroker.com/?redirect=false

M9A1s for $399...

[Bigghoss]

Came across this deal and it made me think of all the TDA Smith fans here. CHP 4006 TSW decock-only for $385 with 3 mags

http://www.summitgunbroker.com/?redirect=false

Makes me want to grab a second.