Performance of .357 Magnum JHP when fired from a lever action gun

[Luger]

Hello,
how will quality .357 Magnum JHP loads perform in ballistic gelatine, when fired from a lever action gun?
As far as I understand they are usually made for the use in revolvers with maybe a four inch barrel. What if you use a rifle with a longer barrel (20 inches or more) instead?

[OnionsAndDragons]

I’m interested in this as well, considering keeping caliber commonality and thinking about a new levergun purchase.


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[awp_101]

As the owner of a couple of GP100s, a Marlin 1894 and a work in progress Martini Cadet I can tell you they're a ton of fun so I'm definitely in for solid, quality information.

[okie john]

DocGKR may have written about 357 Magnum rifle performance in gelatin.

At one point, I had a Marlin 44 Magnum with a 20" barrel and a 5" S&W Model 629 Classic. Most loads ran about 300 fps faster in the long gun than they did in the revolver.

The American Eagle 240-grain JHP load did around 1,200 fps from the revolver. It did about 1,500 in the Marlin, which turned it into a grenade when I shot a little blacktail with it. It made a mess of that poor deer, like I had shot it at close range with a 25-06. If I ever hunt with a 44 rifle again, it will be with hard cast SWC bullets or a premium factory load that's built for use in rifles.

That's the problem with ammo commonality between two firearms: chances are slim that both weapons will perform their best with the same load. If you're crossing the prairie in a covered wagon, then you can accept slightly reduced ballistics to gain massively improved logistics. But if you want optimal performance from both weapons, then you either have to work up two different hand loads or stock two different factory loads, and then you're back to square one. If you have two different weapons or weapons types, then you might as well have two different cartridges with radically different characteristics.

The only reason I'd go for it today is if I had an unending supply of free ammo.


Okie John

[Totem Polar]

In a lever gun, I might be steered towards a 158 gr JSP. Those things can hit 2000fps out of a Henry—which (I’ve read) is enough to cause good expansion. I would probably stay away from the lighter loads, eg. 125 out of a rifle—the collective wisdom is the bullets are driven beyond their design integrity. I’ve also seen 140 gr weights recommended. But I’m not doc GKR, so grain of salt.

[Duelist]

In a lever gun, I might be steered towards a 158 gr JSP. Those things can hit 2000fps out of a Henry—which (I’ve read) is enough to cause good expansion. I would probably stay away from the lighter loads, eg. 125 out of a rifle—the collective wisdom is the bullets are driven beyond their design integrity. I’ve also seen 140 gr weights recommended. But I’m not doc GKR, so grain of salt.

If you’re shooting a deer with your .357 lever rifle, 125gr full house magnum loads might be too explosive. But if you’re shooting a yote or something else like that, they might be just right.

[Greg]

Paging DocGKR

A .44 Mag Marlin 1894 was my home defense carbine for a bunch of years.

You do have to consider overpenetration.

[OlongJohnson]

Hornady sells two XTP bullets in 158gr.

One HP and one FP. The recommended velocity range for expansion of the FP goes much higher, making it a safer bet for carbines, but also goes low enough to make it a reasonable choice for handguns in +P+ or magnum loads. For standard .38SPL loads up to +P, go with the HP.

[JohnO]

The key is going to be optimizing the powder burn rate and pressure curve for a longer barrel. Pistol powders typically burn faster than long gun powders. Longer barrels only increase velocity to the extent that the powder is still burning and expanding with enough force to accelerate the projectile. If a given powder charge has exhausted its ability to accelerate a projectile and there remains barrel to transition, friction will reduce velocity.

[Malamute]

I studied up on the matter a bit some time ago, the 158s seem to work fairly well in carbines. Our Andrew Wiggins, AKA The Chopping Block on youtube has several 357 carbine and carbine/pistol tests in calibrated gel. This suits me fine, I prefer the 158s in pistols.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=357+magnum+rifle+carbine+gel+ test

Several guys on the leverguns forum use them on deer, but I dont recall what loads were used or preferred. A google search on that site may yield some info.

https://www.levergunscommunity.org/

I dont believe we will see deceleration in any 357 loads in common rifle barrels up to 24". The 357 seems to be the better example of velocity increase in carbine or rifle barrels over pistol lengths, no doubt due to the slower burn rate magnum type powder and load levels.


Would like a Browning 92 carbine or Winchester 73 trapper size carbine in 357 one day. Loaded with ultra-light round ball loads in event of an ammo shortage, it would be cheaper than shooting 22s at shortage prices and quiet for yard or inside use if desired. I have several bullet moulds in 38 size, from round ball up.

[Robinson]

I always ran 158gr JSP ammo in my Marlin .357 lever guns. It worked great on varmints. I doubt pistol caliber hollow points would hold together at those velocities unless the bullet is specifically designed for it. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't use .357 Magnum hollow points for large game like deer.

[peterb]

Federal has a couple of 180 grain loads, one using the Swift A-Frame bullet.

[JHC]

Federal has a couple of 180 grain loads, one using the Swift A-Frame bullet.

Any feedback as to whether these feed well in .357 leverguns or are they too long?

[TicTacticalTimmy]

I feel this application is one where an all-copper bullet would really shine. Something like this 140gr Barnes XPB:

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=287

1500 or so from a pistol and 1950 from a rifle

[OlongJohnson]

Would like a Browning 92 carbine or Winchester 73 trapper size carbine in 357 one day. Loaded with ultra-light round ball loads in event of an ammo shortage, it would be cheaper than shooting 22s at shortage prices and quiet for yard or inside use if desired. I have several bullet moulds in 38 size, from round ball up.

At one point, I read up on the B92 in .357. General consensus is that it is unlikely to feed .38SPL cartridges well. Marlin 1894s may or may not feed them or have issues with certain bullets, but generally can be made to do so reliably even if needing a bit of work. So if that's important to you, Marlins might be preferred. No first-hand experience with the B92, that's just the information I found that kept me from spending money on a Browning habit in that particular area.


Any feedback as to whether these feed well in .357 leverguns or are they too long?

As noted above, lever guns are known for having issues with cartridges that are too short. I would expect any cartridge within SAAMI length specs should be OK. Pull up the photos on Federal's site, the loaded rounds all look pretty standard.

Generally, the heavier bullet will fill more of the case rather than extending farther out the front. They reduce the internal volume of the case, which is why powder charges for heavier bullets are smaller than for lighter bullets to reach the same pressure in the same case. The pistol bullets don't have the long-skinny ogive problem that long-range heavy bullets run into causing problems with magazine length.

[JHC]

At one point, I read up on the B92 in .357. General consensus is that it is unlikely to feed .38SPL cartridges well. Marlin 1894s may or may not feed them or have issues with certain bullets, but generally can be made to do so reliably even if needing a bit of work. So if that's important to you, Marlins might be preferred. No first-hand experience with the B92, that's just the information I found that kept me from spending money on a Browning habit in that particular area.



As noted above, lever guns are known for having issues with cartridges that are too short. I would expect any cartridge within SAAMI length specs should be OK. Pull up the photos on Federal's site, the loaded rounds all look pretty standard.

Generally, the heavier bullet will fill more of the case rather than extending farther out the front. They reduce the internal volume of the case, which is why powder charges for heavier bullets are smaller than for lighter bullets to reach the same pressure in the same case. The pistol bullets don't have the long-skinny ogive problem that long-range heavy bullets run into causing problems with magazine length.

Thanks! My two 92 clones and 1894 took some finessing to feed .38s but I never tried 180s.

[OlongJohnson]

Thanks! My two 92 clones and 1894 took some finessing to feed .38s but I never tried 180s.

Are your 92 clones Brownings, or something else?

Chiappas are spendy, but the .44RM Alaskan I handled I handled at an LGS was slick enough it might actually be worth it. I kinda want one of these:

https://www.chiappafirearms.com/p/id/107/product/1892-Lever-Action-Alaskan-Takedown-Rifle.php

[Malamute]

At one point, I read up on the B92 in .357. General consensus is that it is unlikely to feed .38SPL cartridges well. Marlin 1894s may or may not feed them or have issues with certain bullets, but generally can be made to do so reliably even if needing a bit of work. So if that's important to you, Marlins might be preferred. No first-hand experience with the B92, that's just the information I found that kept me from spending money on a Browning habit in that particular area.



As noted above, lever guns are known for having issues with cartridges that are too short. I would expect any cartridge within SAAMI length specs should be OK. Pull up the photos on Federal's site, the loaded rounds all look pretty standard.

Generally, the heavier bullet will fill more of the case rather than extending farther out the front. They reduce the internal volume of the case, which is why powder charges for heavier bullets are smaller than for lighter bullets to reach the same pressure in the same case. The pistol bullets don't have the long-skinny ogive problem that long-range heavy bullets run into causing problems with magazine length.

Im curious what the source of the info was, and exactly what the issue was. Its quite possible that an individual example of any type may or may not feed 38 spls, but its not difficult to tune the cartridge stop on 92s to help. It seems to be individual guns that do or dont feed 38s spls or 44 spls from what I can gather. One other thing, sometimes shorter cartridges can pop up through the guides when run fast since they arent held to the back of the carrier and the rim can start coming up through the rim slots in the cartridge guides in some guns. This varies with individual guns I believe. Theres things that can be done, also just using rounds with longer noses to keep the cartridge on the carrier (lifter) in its proper place until feeding into the chamber. Ive shot 44 spls in my 44 92, they worked fine, but some were the old RN factory loads with longish nose, and some Lyman 429421 bullets, which are too long in magnum cases, but are perfect in spl cases. The 92 action can be tuned to use slightly longer OAL loads (cutting the cartridge stop nub on the carrier back, and probably cutting the lower edge of the ejector back a little for clearance), like the Lyman bullets in magnum cases, but most just find it simpler to use loads that work easier.

Its been several years since I was looking at this stuff, I may be mis-remembering some of the particulars. Steve of Steves Gunz has mentioned some makes have better cartridge guides, or easier to tune.

Theres also a little trick to getting loads with fat nosed bullets to feed.

Most 357 factory loads are close to common spec for OAL, as many pistols have somewhat short cylinders. I dont have examples to check, but think you are correct that heavier 357 bullets are seated deeper to maintain proper OAL.

[JHC]

Are your 92 clones Brownings, or something else?

Chiappas are spendy, but the .44RM Alaskan I handled I handled at an LGS was slick enough it might actually be worth it. I kinda want one of these:

https://www.chiappafirearms.com/p/id/107/product/1892-Lever-Action-Alaskan-Takedown-Rifle.php

Do those Chiappas have a pretty good reputation? I mean for that money and all. I could stand the price if it was top shelf quality.

[Wyoming Shooter]

Do those Chiappas have a pretty good reputation? I mean for that money and all. I could stand the price if it was top shelf quality.

I have the Chiappa 1892 Skinner Carbine in 38/357: https://www.chiappafirearms.com/p/id/103/product/1892-Lever-Action-Skinner-Carbine.php. It ran great for about 200 rounds. Then the lever became "stiff". I sent it back to Chiappa for warranty repair. The repair was handled quickly and it's back to running very smoothly again. The sights are excellent. A close friend has the equivalent Henry and it's a great shooter. Best, ELN.

[Sherman A. House DDS]

Nobody asked me...BUT

I have a Rossi Puma in .357. Winchester 92 copy. I used it at PEP4 in a Chuck Haggard class, where we shot gelatin.

Shooting it side by side to an AKM, with 125 grain SJHP’s, the results in the gelatin were clinically identical. I’ve had similar results against mild steel targets.

With 148 grain WC’s, it is VERY quiet. It’s an oddball though.

Also, the Chiappa Alaskan in .44 mag is nice. I want one.


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[UNK]

Does this help? http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/357mag.html

[Frank R]

Out of my LSI/PUMA M92 .38/.357, 20" Octagon barrel, the Hornady Leverevolution 140gr. FTX works very well.