Remington 870 QC Issues? [Archive]

mtnbkr

10-30-2018, 11:47 AM

I bought my 870 Express new in 1999 (or 2000, can't recall exactly). I used it for 15 years as a trap/skeet/small-game/turkey gun. Not once in that time did I experience any issues. Once I decided to change its mission from sport to home defense, I went through the gun and replaced all the bits deemed "problematic" by the Internet and installed an aftermarket 18" barrel (first a Mossberg, later 870 with sights). Still no issues and the gun continues to run.

I don't know exactly how many rounds are through the gun, but I've burned through enough cases of ammo in addition to smaller volumes of premium ammo to guess I have somewhere north of 2k rounds. Not "high volume" per se, but enough to expose any obvious issues.

So, to my mind, Yr2000 (and presumably older) is "safe".

Chris

Dave J

10-30-2018, 12:08 PM

I don't actually know the answer, but I'd guess early 2000's.

IIRC, 2003 was the last year that Remington turned a profit. In 2004-2006, they ran in the red, prior to being acquired by Freedom Group in 2007. Seems to me there's a lot of incentive to cut corners when your company isn't making any money.

FWIW, my 1994 870P was great. My 2007 870P was a train wreck, but some of the deficiencies might have been from someone at the original owning agency swapping parts before they sold it off.

I'm interested to know what our LE members have observed.

blues

10-30-2018, 12:12 PM

I have an 870 built in about 2001 (maybe 2002) that has exhibited no issues thus far.

thatguybryan

10-30-2018, 06:58 PM

I have owned both a 2008-2009 870 express, as well as just bought a new 870P.

I had no issues with rust or function with the 870 express despite the forum discussions about them. In fact, I liked it so much I bought the 870P to replace it (sold the express for an AR in 2016).

I will report back after I get the 870P to the range, but fit and finish is good or better than any shotgun I have seen recently.

One caveat to my statement about the express is that I did steel wool the barrel per AIP Tactical standards. Not sure if it was necessary but I did it just in case. I have not done this on my 870P so it will be interesting to see what happens.

PS, send me a PM if we have met before Tabasco. ;)

TCinVA

10-31-2018, 07:14 AM

I bought my Express in the early 00's. It was already cursed with the polymer trigger guard, the MIM extractor, and the sub-par finish. Here's my rundown of Remington's history on the models as best I know it from research and personal experience. Anyone with additional information is welcome to offer additions or corrections.

Remington introduced the Express line in the late 80's. When it was introduced, the Express was made the same way as the Wingmaster. The major parts were machined the same way, the receivers were vibra-honed, etc. They didn't perform final exterior polishing necessary to put on the shiny blued finish the Wingmaster was known for. Instead, they parkerized the metal and they used plainer wood furniture. I'm familiar with these guns because I grew up using one. My dad bought one in the late 80's or very early 90's and I killed more than a few critters with it. These guns are most easily recognized by the parkerized finish and a metal trigger guard. (Keep that in mind...we'll see these items again) I'll try to get hold of my dad's Express to get some pictures of it.

Sometime in the late 90's or early 00's, Remington made changes to the Express model that we have come to know and hate. They stopped vibra-honing the receivers, started using MIM'd parts like the extractor and various other parts in the trigger group, used a polymer trigger guard, and finished the gun with a simpler "matte blue" finish which is rough as fuck and doesn't hold up. This is where I bought in because I figured I should get an 870 and my experience with dad's 870 Express made me think it was a good option.

My gun worked...but I only fired maybe two or three boxes of shells through it in the decade that followed.

At this point Remington was forced to establish a separate Police line because departments were buying the Express guns as they always had and found that the degradation in the quality of the product was unsustainable for a duty gun. So the Police model was introduced which kept the tool-steel extractor, the vibra-honing of the receiver, the cheaper wood (or polymer furniture), the metal trigger group (which didn't have MIM parts in it) and a parkerized finish. In other words, the 870 Police guns were made like the original Express guns were.

In the late 2000's, Remington was bought out by Cerberus. This is when they started to cut the Express guns to the absolute quick...the finish got even shittier (this is mainly where the corrosion issues come from) and they stopped doing things like making sure the chamber was sufficiently polished that it would reliably extract shells. The QC got bad enough that they were missing steps altogether. I've had guns come through class that didn't have an ejector installed properly.

If you can get your hands on one of the parkerized Express guns (and there are a bunch out there) it's a superb shotgun.

ricky_bobby

10-31-2018, 08:47 AM

^^Great post - I will keep my eyes out for an older Express, or a newer Police model, if I ever get the urge to add a Rem870 to my collection...

mtnbkr

10-31-2018, 08:57 AM

polymer trigger guard...the metal trigger group (which didn't have MIM parts in it)
Is there a specific issue with the polymer trigger guard or is it just preference. I haven't been able to find any particular problems reported about the plastic trigger guard and mine seems pretty durable, so I left it in place. Also, regarding the 2nd statement, does that mean the guns with the polymer trigger assembly have MIM parts within the assembly or does that just mean the polymer trigger assembly goes along with MIM parts such as the extractor? Asking because I've never noticed anyone calling out other MIM parts in the 870 before.

the finish got even shittier (this is mainly where the corrosion issues come from)
I'm not a duck hunter, so mine never got used in truly wet environments, but as an upland field gun and sporting (clay games) tool, it never had corrosion issues. The only spot of rust is where I was carrying it by the receiver, slipped on a wet rock, and slammed it down on a rock, dinging the side. There's a touch of rust in that dinged spot. It's been there for 13 years and hasn't changed. That might have been the last time it was used for hunting (gave up turkey hunting around that time and switched to rimfire or 20g SxS for small game).

Chris

TCinVA

10-31-2018, 10:55 AM

Is there a specific issue with the polymer trigger guard or is it just preference. I haven't been able to find any particular problems reported about the plastic trigger guard and mine seems pretty durable, so I left it in place. Also, regarding the 2nd statement, does that mean the guns with the polymer trigger assembly have MIM parts within the assembly or does that just mean the polymer trigger assembly goes along with MIM parts such as the extractor?

The polymer trigger guard goes along with MIM'd parts like hammer and carrier dog, or at least that used to be the standard. The Police spec trigger group also has a stronger carrier dog spring and sear spring in it to reduce the chances of an unintentional discharge should the gun suffer an impact with a round chambered.

The actual durability of the trigger guard itself is an open question. Some argue it's more durable than the aluminum ones.

I'm not sure if a current production (as in made in the last couple of years) 870P has the polymer trigger guard or not. They didn't used to, but they may now use the polymer trigger guard with proper police spec parts. Or they may have cheaped out again and just use the same trigger group in all of them.

What I can say is that Brownell's sells a Remington 870P trigger group that is parkerized:

https://www.brownells.com/shotgun-parts/trigger-group-parts/trigger-plate-parts/trigger-plates/trigger-plate-assembly-police-parkerized-prod26466.aspx

...which I assume is the current standard for Remington Police spec guns.

I'm not a duck hunter, so mine never got used in truly wet environments, but as an upland field gun and sporting (clay games) tool, it never had corrosion issues. The only spot of rust is where I was carrying it by the receiver, slipped on a wet rock, and slammed it down on a rock, dinging the side. There's a touch of rust in that dinged spot. It's been there for 13 years and hasn't changed. That might have been the last time it was used for hunting (gave up turkey hunting around that time and switched to rimfire or 20g SxS for small game).

Chris

The corrosion issues, at least as best I can tell, started in earnest after the post-Cerebus cheapening of the Express guns. The finish on my gun didn't rust, but it was thin and shitty. So thin that with only a relatively low level of use the receiver had enough damage to the finish that you could see silver through it in lots of places. I had it refinished with Cerakote which is wearing much better.

mtnbkr

10-31-2018, 11:40 AM

The polymer trigger guard goes along with MIM'd parts like hammer and carrier dog, or at least that used to be the standard. The Police spec trigger group also has a stronger carrier dog spring and sear spring in it to reduce the chances of an unintentional discharge should the gun suffer an impact with a round chambered.
Are those MIM'd parts known to be a problem? When I had my trigger assembly apart last year, they looked physically fine (no chipping or anything obvious). They don't show up on "parts you should replace" lists either. I did replace the carrier spring and sear spring, but ended up back on the factory sear spring. The police one made the trigger far too stiff. The write-ups in favor of using it were to prevent NDs, but this is the first time I've heard it suggested to avoid drop fires. I might give it another try.

What I can say is that Brownell's sells a Remington 870P trigger group that is parkerized:

https://www.brownells.com/shotgun-parts/trigger-group-parts/trigger-plate-parts/trigger-plates/trigger-plate-assembly-police-parkerized-prod26466.aspx
On my Brownells wish list...

Thanks,
Chris

TCinVA

10-31-2018, 11:55 AM

Are those MIM'd parts known to be a problem?

It will depend on how hard you run your gun. My grey Humble Pie gun is at the point now where shit is breaking or close to being broken on it. My ejector is broken but the hammer in it (MIM part) is pretty deformed and I expect it will eventually die, too. You've seen how I essentially abuse the shit out of the gun both by how much muscle I put into running it and the round counts I put it through.

Most people are not running a defensive shotgun the right way, and certainly not as much as some of us are. The harder you use the gun the more that stuff is going to matter.

The write-ups in favor of using it were to prevent NDs, but this is the first time I've heard it suggested to avoid drop fires. I might give it another try.

ND is kind of a nebulous term that gets thrown around and people misunderstand the intention of this particular modification. One of the biggest problems for repeating shotguns is their tendency to go off if they experience an impact with the chamber loaded. Given the tolerance issues of mass production and the tendency to never perform proper maintenance on shotguns out in the field by many agency users, a spring that gives a greater mechanical margin of error against the gun going bang if it receives an impact while it's loaded is beneficial.

Especially since shotguns tend to have chambers left loaded unintentionally on a frequent basis.

farscott

10-31-2018, 12:00 PM

TCinVA

10-31-2018, 12:19 PM

The QC issues I have witnessed on 870P guns are sights not properly oriented and barrel rings not secured to barrels. Looks like the barrel ring attachment method went from silver solder to some adhesive, and I have seen guns where the barrel ring just falls off the barrel.

...or ends up placed in the wrong spot on the barrel altogether.

They seem to have changed to the same not-silver-solder process for attaching sights as well, at least on recent production barrels I've seen.

mtnbkr

10-31-2018, 02:18 PM

It will depend on how hard you run your gun. My grey Humble Pie gun is at the point now where shit is breaking or close to being broken on it. My ejector is broken but the hammer in it (MIM part) is pretty deformed and I expect it will eventually die, too. You've seen how I essentially abuse the shit out of the gun both by how much muscle I put into running it and the round counts I put it through.

Most people are not running a defensive shotgun the right way, and certainly not as much as some of us are. The harder you use the gun the more that stuff is going to matter.
Gotcha. Makes sense now. I assume your ejector is broken from use and not because you sent it to the best gunsmith in Manassas? :D

ND is kind of a nebulous term that gets thrown around and people misunderstand the intention of this particular modification. One of the biggest problems for repeating shotguns is their tendency to go off if they experience an impact with the chamber loaded. Given the tolerance issues of mass production and the tendency to never perform proper maintenance on shotguns out in the field by many agency users, a spring that gives a greater mechanical margin of error against the gun going bang if it receives an impact while it's loaded is beneficial.

Especially since shotguns tend to have chambers left loaded unintentionally on a frequent basis.
The specific description was to protect against poor handling by cops (fingers on triggers, etc), not dropping. That appealed to the worrywart side of me, so I bought the spring and installed it. I didn't like how it made the trigger feel and didn't have enough time to train my finger before class, so I pulled it out. However, now knowing it helps drop-safety, I'll probably put it back in and work through the trigger pull issue. I like larger margins of error.

Chris

TCinVA

10-31-2018, 02:21 PM

Gotcha. Makes sense now. I assume your ejector is broken from use and not because you sent it to the best gunsmith in Manassas? :D

Oh, most definitely. The ejector on that gun has had the living shit beaten out of it in the last year of serious use, including lots of dryfire with correctly weighted dummy shells.

The ejector is the major weak point on the 870.

Tabasco

10-31-2018, 03:33 PM

Oh, most definitely. The ejector on that gun has had the living shit beaten out of it in the last year of serious use, including lots of dryfire with correctly weighted dummy shells.

The ejector is the major weak point on the 870.

And the only way to replace it is to drill out the rivets, re-install a new one with rivets, grind them flush with the receiver and refinish the whole receiver. Way beyond my humble abilities...

TCinVA

10-31-2018, 04:11 PM

And the only way to replace it is to drill out the rivets, re-install a new one with rivets, grind them flush with the receiver and refinish the whole receiver. Way beyond my humble abilities...

Not necessarily. It’s possible you can cut the head off the existing rivet that holds the spring itself in, replace it, then re-rivet the new spring in place. That’s what many shops that replace them do.

That still requires a special tool set for the purpose and it’s not the easiest thing for the uninitiated to perform.

thatguybryan

10-31-2018, 06:33 PM

The last new 870P guns I have seen come with the polymer-based trigger plate. From what I can tell, the polymer is a product improvement as it holds tighter tolerances and is a bit more resistant to abuse. It is probably a cost reduction as well.

The QC issues I have witnessed on 870P guns are sights not properly oriented and barrel rings not secured to barrels. Looks like the barrel ring attachment method went from silver solder to some adhesive, and I have seen guns where the barrel ring just falls off the barrel.

Personally I have experienced no issues related to the MIM extractor versus the milled extractor. In both cases, cheap ammo (Remington Gun Club) causes failures to extract, and decent ammo functions fine.

On my new 870P, I don't think either of these things are true. I believe my barrel ring is brazed on and the trigger guard is metal also.

...or ends up placed in the wrong spot on the barrel altogether.

They seem to have changed to the same not-silver-solder process for attaching sights as well, at least on recent production barrels I've seen.

Mine are brazed or silver soldered on my current production 870P.

I'm going to take some pictures later to demonstrate current production quality, which in my opinion is quite good.

HCM

11-01-2018, 01:19 AM

This is from the guns you have seen fail thread: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?280-A-different-take-on-reliability-Guns-you-ve-personally-seen-fail/page10

Gun: Remington 870 police
Setting: Agency Quals
How did it fail: Ring that secures the front of the barrel to the magazine tube broke.
What was the remedy: new barrel required
Was it your pistol or someone else's: Agency
Notes: Most likely cause - magazine cap not properly tightened. This is a newer gun and it appears the barrel ring is now epoxied to the barrel rather than soldered.

31911

31912

These guns were produced sometime between 2010 and 2012. Agency issued 14” 870P.

Tabasco

11-01-2018, 10:44 AM

This is from the guns you have seen fail thread: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?280-A-different-take-on-reliability-Guns-you-ve-personally-seen-fail/page10

31911

31912

These guns were produced sometime between 2010 and 2012. Agency issued 14” 870P.

Magazine cap not properly tightened, as in it was too loose and the barrel ring slammed forward during recoil?

HCM

11-01-2018, 01:22 PM

Magazine cap not properly tightened, as in it was too loose and the barrel ring slammed forward during recoil?

Yes, I mentioned that in the original post in the broken guns thread.

You can clearly see the ring for the mag tube is epoxied to the barrel not soldered.

I have a personal 870 which I purchased with Scattergun ghost rings already installed. I sent it to robar for refinishing and during the process the front sight came off because it had been epoxied instead of soldered. To their credit robar soldered the front sight on for half price and refinished the barrel.

Tabasco

11-01-2018, 02:10 PM

Yes, I mentioned that in the original post in the broken guns thread.

You can clearly see the ring for the mag tube is epoxied to the barrel not soldered.

I have a personal 870 which I purchased with Scattergun ghost rings already installed. I sent it to robar for refinishing and during the process the front sight came off because it had been epoxied instead of soldered. To their credit robar soldered the front sight on for half price and refinished the barrel.

Yikes! I bought two Remington barrels from Midway over the last couple of years, and the rings and sights look to be brazed on. A brass colored seam between the ring/sight base and the barrel, which I assume is some type of metallic soldering. Maybe they tried epoxy for a while and it didn't work out so well?

thatguybryan

11-01-2018, 10:26 PM

Hi all,

Here are some pics of my current production 870P.

https://i.imgur.com/xRegVAf.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/hOPVzcf.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/alB1M7z.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/h8oabfo.jpg

Hopefully this answers some questions about current production quality. Here you can see brazed barrel ring, front sight (rear is wilson combat), the aluminum trigger guard, and the finish.

Just to be clear, not saying any other reports are not true. However, a lot of the information in this thread and many others seems to be outdated.

farscott

11-02-2018, 03:37 AM

thatguybryan

11-02-2018, 08:13 AM

Interesting gun. The barrel code appears to be "KM", which suggests it could be an older barrel as it could be from either 1965, 1992, or 2019. Since we have not yet made it to 2019 and that barrel was not made in 1965, I assume the barrel is from 1992.

I'm not sure that makes sense. Not saying you're incorrect, but just to clarify the gun was bought brand new from a dealer.

Additionally, it has an XS front sight and a barrel detent ball on it, neither of which were around in 92 as far as I can recall.

Finally, even if they are using 1992 barrels (which I don't think they are) on their new guns, I have no problem with that as long as it is high quality and reliable.

I think it being marked 2019 makes more sense, as we are only 2 months away from that. I could be wrong though. :)

farscott

11-02-2018, 09:24 AM

I'm not sure that makes sense. Not saying you're incorrect, but just to clarify the gun was bought brand new from a dealer.

Additionally, it has an XS front sight and a barrel detent ball on it, neither of which were around in 92 as far as I can recall.

Finally, even if they are using 1992 barrels (which I don't think they are) on their new guns, I have no problem with that as long as it is high quality and reliable.

I think it being marked 2019 makes more sense, as we are only 2 months away from that. I could be wrong though. :)

Remington is famous for finding old stock and using it on new guns. The barrel detent ball goes all the way back to the beginning of the 870. My old V-suffix (non-Magnum receiver) guns came with the barrel detent ball; it was removed on the Express guns. The ramp sight base design is also quite old.

I can only say that I have looked at rather large batches of new 870P guns in the past few years, and the barrel rings are definitely not soldered or brazed to the barrel.

thatguybryan

11-02-2018, 10:26 AM

Remington is famous for finding old stock and using it on new guns. The barrel detent ball goes all the way back to the beginning of the 870. My old V-suffix (non-Magnum receiver) guns came with the barrel detent ball; it was removed on the Express guns. The ramp sight base design is also quite old.

I can only say that I have looked at rather large batches of new 870P guns in the past few years, and the barrel rings are definitely not soldered or brazed to the barrel.

Interesting. If that is the case, I'm certainly not complaining about getting a brazed one. Will report back on how it shoots this evening.

scjbash

11-02-2018, 10:30 AM

I'm sending an 870 back today. Odd part though is that it was made in 2009 and has never been fired. The top of the receiver is cut on such a bad angle that when you look through the rear peep you don't see the front sight. When I bought it new I called them and they said they knew about the problem and to send it back for a replacement. They sent me a return label and then that week I got hurt and didn't get it sent back right away. Life got busy and the gun got packed away and I forgot about it. An 870 discussion last week reminded me of the gun so I called Remington and they still have the return in their system as an open order. She sent me another shipping label but had no idea what they will do with the gun since it really should have been sent in during the one year warranty. She said they may go ahead and replace the receiver for free or I may have to pay for it.

thatguybryan

11-02-2018, 06:49 PM

Just got back from the range, the 870p functioned flawlessly with about 38 shells of buckshot thru it (range doesn't allow anything other than buck or slugs).

Will keep updating as the gun is shot.

TCinVA

11-03-2018, 03:27 PM

LHS

11-06-2018, 09:19 PM

Our most recent shotgun class, from the end of September. This was a department-issued 870 (type unknown, but appeared to be fairly recent) broke both action bars simultaneously.

32090

LHS

11-06-2018, 09:20 PM

3209132092

farscott

11-07-2018, 07:54 AM

Breaking both action bars at once is failure mode unknown to me. It almost has to be a metallurgical failure.

Guerrero

11-07-2018, 10:01 AM

Breaking both action bars at once is failure mode unknown to me. It almost has to be a metallurgical failure.

I thought I heard of that happening at a Tom Givens class, too.

TCinVA

11-07-2018, 12:03 PM

Breaking both action bars at once is failure mode unknown to me. It almost has to be a metallurgical failure.

It could be that. It could also be over-tightening of the castle nut that holds the fore-end to the fore-end tube. Given that this gun was equipped with a SureFire fore-end and that the SF unit weighs almost a pound and a half on its own, no small amount of force is imparted to the action bars when we run the action as we must to ensure reliable function in a defensive context. It's not at all uncommon for the nut that holds the SF unit to the forend to come loose after the repeated blows it suffers while being run, and I could see how someone would think that really ratcheting that nut down super hard was the best way to prevent that from happening again. That puts the action bars under a considerable stress which only gets worse when we actually run the gun.

When we run the gun with the appropriate vigor there is so much force that if you make the mistake of practicing heavily with that generation of the SF fore-end while there are batteries installed in it, you will beat the batteries and the contacts for the batteries to death:

32118

The dishing in the bottom of that battery is the result of only a relatively small amount of live work and a relatively small amount of dryfire with dummies.

It's also a good reason why using SureFire batteries in such a device is a good idea, as they are at least constructed very well. A cheaper battery may well have failed by this point.

OlongJohnson

11-11-2018, 12:15 PM

So it might be better to hang mass on a non-reciprocating part of the gun, if you can engineer the ergonomics to be functional. Surprises me I've not heard that yet.

LJP

11-12-2018, 02:02 PM

I have an 870P SBS that I bought new in 2017. My only complaint is with the finish. Just recently, I pulled it out of my bedroom closet safe and discovered a fine patina of rust on the receiver.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

KevH

02-16-2019, 12:55 PM

I'm currently responsible for maintaining 80 Remington 870's for my medium sized police department.

Our department inventory ranges from 1960 "Wingmaster" marked guns to 870P's purchased in 2004. Additionally, any seized guns to be surrendered/destroyed are given to me to either cannibalize for parts or convert to department use.

My personal opinion is the 1990's "Police Magnums" are the best of the breed. Came with Flexitab. Excellent fitting of parts, great tough parkerized finish, for the most part zero issues. The newer guns (2010+) all seem to have finish issues and part fitment issues (things like the front sight pedestal being slightly crooked, etc).

My "home defense" 870 is a 2001 production Express with the polymer trigger guard. Honestly, I think it's fitting and finish is better than the latest 870P's I've seen.

We simply refinish/refurb our older guns rather than buy new ones.

OlongJohnson

02-17-2019, 09:51 AM

The newer guns (2010+) all seem to have finish issues and part fitment issues (things like the front sight pedestal being slightly crooked, etc).

Same methods that drove Chrysler into bankruptcy...

willie

02-17-2019, 10:30 PM

Back when the Express was introduced, a Remington rep told me that the Express finish was matte(rough)blue and not parkerized. To find an older nice Express, look for one with a machined extractor. On the Express guns no effort was made to deburr action parts. If I were a young man, I would locate a couple really nice Expresses and send then to Robar to be parkerized. While there, I'd pay Robar to relieve forcing cones and install the best recoil pads with stocks cut to my ideal length. Once received, I would slap a coat of Rig Gun Grease on these guns and use'em like hell but give sensible care. Robar is expensive but has a sterling reputation. Their park service cost is most reasonable. Since the guns would already be there, why ship elsewhere for other work?

deputyG23

02-22-2019, 11:08 AM

Finally got the chance to lay hold of my father's 870 Express. It was purchased in Delaware sometime between 1989 and 1991:

31976

Some years ago he replaced the factory wood with factory polymer stocks. Apart from that the gun is stock.

31977

Here you see the blued bolt with evidence of wear from use. The extractor is made of machined steel.

31978

Parkerized finish is uniform and has proven durable as evidenced by the wear on it relative to the wear evident on the bolt.

31979

Aluminum trigger group with the flex-tab lifter.

The action on this gun is Wingmaster smooth because at this point the receivers were still being vibrahoned. It was used heavily for hunting birds, small game, and deer for about a decade without issue.

If you can find an Express model gun made like the one pictured, it's a damn fine shotgun. Don't hesitate to buy it. It is a completely different animal than the 870 Express I bought a little more than 10 years later.

If you want to see how Remington used to build guns:

https://youtu.be/SNIb20fDTY4
I picked up two used Express pump guns in the mid and late '80s, respectively. I put synthetic Police furniture and a factory mag extension on one and ran it as a work shotgun from '92 to '96 when my work finally bought the civil deputies shotguns, which are 870P models with wood furniture, rifle sights, and mag extensions. They are still in service with few issues.
I removed the mag extension off my Express and turned it into a HD shotgun and gave the second one to my son. Both have been used for clay shooting and one full day shotgun class with Benjamin DeWalt. No issues with either gun.