View Full Version : Defensive Power Factor (DPF)
LittleLebowski
03-02-2012, 11:40 AM
I saw one gun blogger quoting this and was wondering if it's something to be taken seriously?
Mitchell, Esq.
03-02-2012, 01:15 PM
I saw one gun blogger quoting this and was wondering if it's something to be taken seriously?
I have a client who at different points in his life was:
Hit by a car.
Dragged by a car.
Shot 3 times COM with a 9mm.
Shot 1 time in the back of the head. (Pharmaceutical sales is a cut throat trade. Another sales rep actually did it to him when they were talking about who gets to sell at which location. You'd think professionals would be civil about these things...but then again, his was a company regulated more by the DEA than the FDA...)
He is still alive, and when he came to my office to sue the cab which took off as he was getting out resulting in him being dragged, his biggest complaint was the driver was "rude"...
Oh, and the head shot?
I didn't see the police report, but I did see the healed entry/exit wounds. Entry was just to the right of the base of the skull, exit was above & behind the right ear.
The round used...
According to him, a 10mm.
I'll take placement (and LOTS of it) over "Power" any day.
jetfire
03-02-2012, 01:35 PM
What blogger? Because that sounds hilarious.
Did a quick google, and what I did find did not take into account expansion or penetration, so no, I don't think it should be given one moment's consideration.
(bullet weight x caliber x velocity = DPF is what came up when googling.)
MechEng
03-02-2012, 02:00 PM
What blogger? Because that sounds hilarious.
I saw the same blogger’s entry and was wondering the same thing.
Think "Angry Shrek"
It seems to me his formula caterers to the “bigger faster bullet is better” crowd.
MechEng
03-02-2012, 02:05 PM
I can make up a DPF too.
Caliber x bullet weight x dice roll of 2d20 = DPF
If you are using a 10mm then it’s +10 on the dice roll.
jetfire
03-02-2012, 02:35 PM
Think "Angry Shrek"
Hahahahahaha awesome.
Just found it. The blogger in question is a big fan of .40 S&W, because he believes in "stopping power." He's a nice guy and is right on some things, but I'd disregard this "defensive power factor" stuff since it doesn't have anything to do with actual terminal ballistic performance.
Edit for additional thoughts: the DPF as listed also completely disregards the expansion of modern JHP bullets which makes it completely irrelevant.
LittleLebowski
03-02-2012, 02:57 PM
What blogger? Because that sounds hilarious.
http://madogre.com/?p=2487
Savage Hands
03-02-2012, 02:58 PM
http://www.myfacewhen.net/uploads/394-intredasting.png
orionz06
03-02-2012, 04:23 PM
I have often thought about trying to come up with a counter argument using some neato equation that people cannot understand. Perhaps I should give that a whirl. Make it something their iPhone can't solve readily.
Case in point as to why DPF is bunk, a baseball thrown at 20mph has a DPF of 190 while the .40 loads from what I googled have a DPF of around 72. You can't tell anyone with a straight face to stop carrying a handgun and carry around baseballs.
orionz06
03-02-2012, 05:53 PM
And odds are the velocity of the 5.7 still doesn't keep it from being the suck in yet another (useless) "factor" that someone brained up.
Odin Bravo One
03-02-2012, 06:05 PM
Academic study based on a whole lot of speculation, assumption, and pure BS.
When the academic shooters start shooting some actual people with their wonderful theory bullets, then I might start to listen. (With them pulling the trigger, not reading reports after someone else fired the rounds).
Until then, I simply walk away from such worthless discussions.
LOKNLOD
03-02-2012, 06:20 PM
Case in point as to why DPF is bunk, a baseball thrown at 20mph has a DPF of 190 while the .40 loads from what I googled have a DPF of around 72. You can't tell anyone with a straight face to stop carrying a handgun and carry around baseballs.
Sounds like someone is trying to play up the bias that collision physics has for momentum over energy, but without actually understanding what any of it means.
Imagine how frackin' lethal we'd all be if every minute spent talking about this stuff was instead a trigger pull in training (dry or live).
Tamara
03-02-2012, 08:08 PM
Imagine how frackin' lethal we'd all be if every minute spent talking about this stuff was instead a trigger pull in training (dry or live).
Man, P-F.com is all ate up with the smarts today. :cool: (I'll be stealing that line, just so you know.)
Tamara
03-02-2012, 08:17 PM
Hahahahahaha awesome.
Just found it. The blogger in question is a big fan of .40 S&W, because he believes in "stopping power." He's a nice guy and is right on some things, but I'd disregard this "defensive power factor" stuff since it doesn't have anything to do with actual terminal ballistic performance.
Edit for additional thoughts: the DPF as listed also completely disregards the expansion of modern JHP bullets which makes it completely irrelevant.
The internet sure is a funny old place. I'm sure there's a twelve-year-old thread at TFL where George is teasing me about my Glock 29 'cause it wasn't a .45 1911. Good times, good times... :)
jetfire
03-02-2012, 08:33 PM
Let's not get started about threads on TFL, because I'm pretty sure there's one of me defending my Taurus because it had been "flawless for 500 rounds". Such shame is a burden I wear daily.
orionz06
03-02-2012, 08:38 PM
The Judge is a handgun forged out of pure Powah Factah!
HeadHunter
03-02-2012, 08:45 PM
DPF
Handguns = shit
Rifles and Shotguns = not too bad, usually
M2 = Pretty good
M242 25mm Bushmaster Chain gun = kicks ass
SecondsCount
03-02-2012, 08:47 PM
I have had this discussion with George at one of his classes.
While I don't agree with the Ogre on every issue, he is still a good guy. Somebody tell him that caliber wars are so yesterday. :D
Chuck Haggard
03-03-2012, 12:56 AM
DPF
Handguns = shit
Rifles and Shotguns = not too bad, usually
M2 = Pretty good
M242 25mm Bushmaster Chain gun = kicks ass
I know a guy, I bullshit you not, who took two 12.7 bullets though the abdomen one bad day in Vietnam. Killed his gunner and blew the crap out of the Cobra he was driving, which of course resulted in said Cobra losing the ability to fly. He not only lived to tell the tale, he was still healthy enough to be on flight status several years later.
HeadHunter
03-03-2012, 10:21 AM
I know a guy, I bullshit you not, who took two 12.7 bullets though the abdomen one bad day in Vietnam. .. he was still healthy enough to be on flight status several years later.
Hence, pretty good. Until we get into explosive ammunition, like the M242, any hole puncher has a possibility of failure.
Jimmy Cirillo was underwhelmed by the performance of 12 gauge slugs. Someone from the Stakeout Squad shot some guy twice with 12 gauge slugs, which both perforated the dude, and he still ran out the door and halfway down the block.
secondstoryguy
03-03-2012, 01:07 PM
Although not relevant to ballistic injury, I thought this was an excellent example of how tough humans can be:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWVe0JbMh6c&feature=player_embedded#!
Hence, pretty good. Until we get into explosive ammunition, like the M242, any hole puncher has a possibility of failure.
Jimmy Cirillo was underwhelmed by the performance of 12 gauge slugs. Someone from the Stakeout Squad shot some guy twice with 12 gauge slugs, which both perforated the dude, and he still ran out the door and halfway down the block.
And I read of one instance where an African elephant was killed with a single .22LR. Weird stuff happens at all ends of the scale. I say we take off and nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure...
I can make up a DPF too.
Caliber x bullet weight x dice roll of 2d20 = DPF
If you are using a 10mm then it’s +10 on the dice roll.
No no no, it's 2d6 for service handgun rounds (2d6+1 if it's 10mm, .357 or .45 ACP), 2d8 for magnum pistol/revolver rounds, 12 gauge slugs, 5.7mm and intermediate rifle-caliber rounds (2d8+1 for 7.62x39mm ball, but only out of an AK), 2d10 for medium-caliber rifles and the Taurus Judge, and 2d12 for the .50 BMG. Didn't you read the d20 Modern book?
I am surprised that nobody has created some Xtra Normal (http://www.xtranormal.com/) movies about guns like this one about the IPhone vs Android (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL7yD-0pqZg)
Topics off the top of my head:
"45 vs 9mm"
"7.62 vs 5.56"
"Racking the Shotgun"
"I just bought a gun with a blemish, should I send it back the manufacturer"
"I just bought a gun, should I shoot it or just put it my safe"
"It runs flawless: 500 rounds over 5 years"
Mitchell, Esq.
03-05-2012, 03:23 PM
No no no, it's 2d6 for service handgun rounds (2d6+1 if it's 10mm, .357 or .45 ACP), 2d8 for magnum pistol/revolver rounds, 12 gauge slugs, 5.7mm and intermediate rifle-caliber rounds (2d8+1 for 7.62x39mm ball, but only out of an AK), 2d10 for medium-caliber rifles and the Taurus Judge, and 2d12 for the .50 BMG. Didn't you read the d20 Modern book?
If it ain't Vampire: the Masquerade...
You are just playing with yourself.
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