Picking a Metal-Framed Handgun - LTT Elite vs Shadow 2

[einherjarvalk]

I try to buy myself a Christmas gift every year, and this year, so long as things go well, I'm looking at finally adding a high-end metal-framed TDA handgun to my safe.

Right now I've got a rising competition bug - at the moment I'm shooting outlaw matches out of convenience with my P30L V1, but I do want to try my hand at formal USPSA matches next year. I got interested in the Beretta 92 series earlier this year after talking with some other shooters in our matches that were either shooting LTT-tuned PX4s or had taken classes with Mr. Langdon recently. These shooters had nothing but good things to say about modern 92Gs and highly recommended the Wilson BrigTacs...which shortly gave way to recommendations for the LTT Elite once it began circulating. I've got some limited experience with the 92FS Inox that a friend brought out once before I started taking handgun shooting seriously, and I recall shooting it comparatively well given my limited skillset at the time.

That said, the Shadow 2 has always had my eye to a certain extent as well. Even back before I started shooting as regularly as I do now, I heard great things about it from friends who have bought them and competed with them, and they appear to be the undisputed champion in USPSA Production class. My understanding is that a semi-custom gun such as the LTT Elite 92 would put me in Limited once I start shooting USPSA. However, I'm somewhat hesitant to jump on the CZ train due to durability concerns I've heard about (mostly premature parts failures and occasionally light primer strikes). With the majority of my handgun stable now having "HK" or "Glock" stamped on the slide, I've come to really appreciate guns that need a minimum of preventative maintenance and parts replacement.

Ultimately, I'm looking for some guidance as to the major pros/cons with each handgun. The way I'm looking at it now, the LTT Elite seems to make more sense as a gun that can serve many purposes from concealed carry to competition right out of the box, whereas the Shadow 2 is firmly in the competition category, with all the increased maintenance schedule and fine-tuning that may entail. If that's the case, it may be worth buying the LTT Elite instead and deciding on a "comp-specific" gun later once I'm fully committed to actually showing up at USPSA matches on a regular basis (in which case I may find myself weighing the Shadow 2 against the USP Expert, but that's a whole different story).

My local range might have a Shadow 2 for rent, but certainly doesn't have an LTT Elite, and I'm doubtful that a factory M9A1 will give me a reasonable sense of what I'd be getting with a higher-end model. I don't think either of these guns are going to instantly improve my shooting or make me more competitive on their own, but I do want to make sure I'm making an informed decision either way.

[Bucky]

Ultimately, I'm looking for some guidance as to the major pros/cons with each handgun. The way I'm looking at it now, the LTT Elite seems to make more sense as a gun that can serve many purposes from concealed carry to competition right out of the box, whereas the Shadow 2 is firmly in the competition category, with all the increased maintenance schedule and fine-tuning that may entail. If that's the case, it may be worth buying the LTT Elite instead and deciding on a "comp-specific" gun later once I'm fully committed to actually showing up at USPSA matches on a regular basis (in which case I may find myself weighing the Shadow 2 against the USP Expert, but that's a whole different story).

I think you hit on one of the key comparison points. I don’t have the LTT Elite, but do have an Elite 2 that LTT worked on many years ago. Very solid pistol for sure. The other question is, is the LTT Elite Production legal yet?

[revchuck38]

I have experience with the base versions of the guns you're considering, a 92 Inox Brigadier and two CZ-75Bs, but not the specific models you're looking at. IMO, there's no wrong answer for what you're considering.

Both guns are excellent in terms of accuracy and reliability. Both guns have had issues in the past with parts breakage which came to light from heavy use in competition and which have been rectified by the manufacturer and/or the aftermarket - locking blocks and trigger return springs with the Beretta and trigger return springs and firing pin issues with the CZ. Both guns can be purchased new from highly-respected gunsmiths with all the bells and whistles.

The difference, IMO, is in the ergonomics, how they feel in your hand. The grip frame on the CZ is smaller and the trigger reach in DA is shorter. Racking the slide is slightly more difficult on the CZ since the slide runs inside the frame as opposed to outside on the Beretta. Operation of the manual safeties is much different; lowering the hammer for a DA first shot requires two hands and ALL your attention with the CZ, it's much simpler with the Beretta.

I've used both guns for concealed carry and competition. The CZ conceals very slightly better. Shooting them in competition is a wash. Thankfully, I've never been in a defensive situation where shooting was required, but I've switched from carrying the CZs to another Beretta (the PX4) due to the ease of decocking.

If you see yourself ever carrying the gun, I'd go with the LTT. Range toy? Coin toss.

[BigT]

The popularity of the Shadow 2 in IPSC and USPSA Production is with good reason. If you want a pure game gun as opposed to a dual purpose one its the gun to get.

I think the small parts breakage thing gets a little over blown. Trigger springs fail and slide stops break, less than they used to. If you don't go batshit on the mods they set most things off. Mine has a just over 6.5lb DA trigger and sets off all the primers Ive tried including Ginex.

I thing the LTT92 would make an epic fighting gun.

[Bucky]

The difference, IMO, is in the ergonomics, how they feel in your hand. The grip frame on the CZ is smaller and the trigger reach in DA is shorter. Racking the slide is slightly more difficult on the CZ since the slide runs inside the frame as opposed to outside on the Beretta. Operation of the manual safeties is much different; lowering the hammer for a DA first shot requires two hands and ALL your attention with the CZ, it's much simpler with the Beretta.


The trigger reachon my Shadow 2 is long, much longer than my Berettas. In fact, I need to get the short reach trigger for mine soon! The frame feels longer front to back as well. Not sure if this is just an anomaly with the Shadow 2, as it’s the only CZ I own.

[nightstalker865]

No decocker on the Shadow makes it a no-go for me. I’ll take a Beretta or Sig over a CZ any day.


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[Jared]

I sold my shadow 2. I've been using Berettas since before I found this forum. I'm probably biased. Keep that in mind.

For a dual use gun, Beretta all the way. The decocking situation on the CZ's is a no go for any kind of post incident situation in my opinion.

Now, if you want to do a "family" things even out a lot. A shadow 2 is a phenomenal competition pistol. Pairing it with a P09 for defensive use makes a lot of sense. The Shadow is probably the better game gun.

All in all, I greatly prefer the Beretta models. I use a full sized 92 for any competition use, as well as a nightstand pistol with a rail mounted light. A PX4CC gets the carry duty.

When I had my shadow 2, I did a fair amount of shooting with it. I didn't see much of a jump at all in scores with the CZ compared to what I was doing with the Beretta 92's I have. That led me to decide that it deserved a different home.

[revchuck38]

The trigger reachon my Shadow 2 is long, much longer than my Berettas. In fact, I need to get the short reach trigger for mine soon! The frame feels longer front to back as well. Not sure if this is just an anomaly with the Shadow 2, as it’s the only CZ I own.

To be honest, I'm going from memory on this. I sold the Brigadier a couple of years ago due to personal reasons not related to function or finance.

[CraigS]

My SIL had a Shadow 2 for 6 months or so. I got to shoot it some. I really liked it but that dropping the hammer on a live round and using you thumb and finger to make sure it doesn't fire made it a gun I absolutely will not own. When I shot his I just loaded 10 in the mag and shot til the slide locked back. Here is an idea that may make your B92 and even better all around gun.
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1946/45194571062_7b6974b71d_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2bRFZqs)Home Brewed EII (https://flic.kr/p/2bRFZqs) by craig stuard (https://www.flickr.com/photos/152454123@N04/), on Flickr
See the small hole in the grip at the rear bottom? This allows me to change hammer springs w/o removing the grips. Although I am fortunate enough to have a dedicated comp pistol it could also be used to go back and forth on springs. 12# for comp and 14# for defense. I also installed a spring cap w/ the old lanyard loop because it makes it easier to depress the cap to remove the pin.

[beenalongtime]

If I were to do the hole thing for competition, then personally I would be looking at a Wilson mag guide, rather then the flat cap. (just preference)

I bought a LTT Elite, and twice looked at the same Shadow 2 at my LGS. It was brought in, with one clip through it on a trade for a "grail gun", then the person that bought it, brought it back after putting three magazines through it and marked for $1000. It was stolen when they were broken into, or I would have bought it.
From handling them both, I would still prefer the LTT. For defense, with my hours, I would prefer the LTT with Spartan sights, but the normal fibre optic for competition.
To me there are few reasons why the gun shouldn't make it into the 2000 sold category:
End of the world as we know it, shitstorm.
EL gets tired of dealing with it and people and says enough.
Beretta decides, Hey, this really is a better designed frame, and lets use it for all 92's now and eliminate that point on the button, etc.

I have a P01 and another one of the versions without the rail, that are fine fun guns. For carry and practice, I have several PX4's, that just feel so much better to me.

EDIT: I should add that my LTT is loaned to my LGS owners, who want to order one and I haven't received it back because they are enjoying it, and debating which sights. If I didn't have other expenses happen now, I would be ordering another with the Spartan sights and of course like the other, with the trigger job.

[spinmove_]

If you’re looking for something more practical that can do both serious work and competition, the Elite LTT is probably better suited for you. Especially if you’re not going to be too super serious about competition.

If you’re seriously looking at competition, then I’d probably do the Shadow 2.

Durability concerns are overblown I think. The Shadow 2 is competition only, don’t carry it. There’s just enough aftermarket support to make the Elite LTT to do whatever you want it to do at this point.

Get whatever fits better for you.


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[Doc_Glock]

Weight is a big difference between the two. I think the Fe framed CZ is at least 10 oz heavier than the Al framed LTT.

[BN]

For dual purposes, get the LTT Elite. I have one. Get a handful of the 20 round MecGar mags and rock on.

Also, I have a pre-Shadow CZ75 and my wife has a CZ75 Shadow Custom. We treat them like Glocks and they run fine. We might add a drop of oil more often than the Glocks, but they are reliable. We haven't needed to replace any parts other than recoil springs and I have had mine for 10 years.

[Jim Watson]

I shot a "pre-B" CZ75 in IDPA SSP for a couple of years. I eased the hammer down for every start in match and practice with never a wayward shot. Lots of IPSCers do it, too. The DA/SA is advantageous under IPSC rules, the guns can be highly tuned, and there is a good deal of interest in USPSA.

On the other hand, some guy named Ernest once demonstrated that the Beretta could be competitive, too.

I don't have a Beretta, my mechanical decocker is a Sig. I can hit better with the CZ.

I don't want to carry either one, both companies make lighter guns to wear all day.

[Mirolynmonbro]

Beretta because of the decocker. I couldn't get used to having the safety on the shadow 2 after using my decockers for so long

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[Clusterfrack]

For competition, the Shadow 2 is a much better choice.

[orionz06]

I've got a pair of Shadow 2's and for dual use would go 92, otherwise Shadow 2.

[GuanoLoco]

Decide your purpose and your USPSA division.

Do-all gun? Beretta.

Defensive gun? Beretta

USPSA Production Competition gun - Shadow 2, no doubt about it. Have no concerns and learn to drop the hammer like everyone else in the sport. Decockers aren't used because they are assumed (rightly or wrongly) to degrade the trigger quality.

USPSA Limited, Minor Power Factor - whatever floats your boat - You will be competing with 40S&W 2011 SAO guns shooting Major Power Factor and 140mm magazines and race holsters - neither the Shadow 2 or the Beretta is a very good choice if you want to be hardware equitable. If you are having fun and want to run carry gear shooting Lim Minor, the Beretta is fine and more versatile. If you have super awesome skills it won't matter than much anyhow.

[Manbearspider]

I have both. The CZ is definitely a hell of a game gun/ laser gun with how soft and flat it shoots with that steel frame. Add in some more tuning and ammo matching, and I can see why guns similar to that are what the pros run at the top end of the competition world. The Elite LTT is what I find myself reaching for way more often for league night, for an informal match, or for a range day because it shoots like the guns I'm used to, just at a far higher fidelity. It also happens to fit in my hand a bit more comfortably, and is a gun I wouldn't hesitate to trust my life to (the CZ, while awesome, does not meet that feeling for me personally).

In both cases, running them in a scored setting and against the clock, I feel like I'm clearly the weak link in the system holding me back from a higher score. The guns are both already there to perform.

[Sal Picante]

I don't think either of these guns are going to instantly improve my shooting or make me more competitive on their own, but I do want to make sure I'm making an informed decision either way.

Maybe skip the guns and buy some ammo/range time to shoot USPSA more regularly?

Your HK's will probably be just fine. Honestly.

But, since you asked:


Ultimately, I'm looking for some guidance as to the major pros/cons with each handgun.

Both are sweet shooters with lots of parts, crap, etc to pimp 'em out how you want.

As many mentioned before: The S2 is pure competition gun with no decocker and a very heavy all steel frame.
The cat's meow is to get someone like Matt Mink at Automatic Accuracy to put a short resetting trigger in there. Pure competition goodness.
Don't worry about the parts reliability issue, bro: If you're not dry firing it for an hour a day and running 1000 rounds a week through it, you'll be fine. When you hit that mark and start slaying it at the local matches, you'll be so deep into the sport that the hour of monthly maintenance will be nothing compared to the time you spend reloading all your ammo. Your wife will probably have strong words for you either way about how the lawn isn't getting mowed, you're not saving enough, and "why are you gone all the time!?!". I.E. You'll have other karmic problems to deal with.

The LTT92 is nice, multi-purpose gun built for people who really like Berettas. (I don't hesitate to carry a 92 for games and as CCW)

You really can't go wrong with either.

Personally? I love my Beretta pistols: They've realiable, safe, shoot well, the skills transfer from games-to-steet since I pretty much shoot the same gun in competition that I carry. I shot the CZ Shadow (the older one) and had my best season in USPSA with it - I'd be lying if I didn't say that I had some issues, but I was probably running the ragged edge of what is acceptable useage for a pistol with high round counts, hectic maintenance, etc. I didn't like the fact that the carry gun that CZ offered was too radically different than the gun I used in competition (CZ BD compact vs Shadow) and that was one of the key reasons I shifted back to a Beretta. That just my story. YMMV.

Proof that both work:


https://www.facebook.com/wiil.shoot/videos/1452986554972335/

p/BZtQDfZnzdn

[einherjarvalk]

Thanks for the comparative breakdown, guys. The way I see it, I know I'm starting to pull ahead slightly in skill from the majority of the folks at the range, but I like to think I'm humble enough to know I'm not skilled enough to wring every ounce of performance out of either gun at this stage (or my current pair of P30Ls, frankly).

Thinking about it some more, it seems like either gun will give me plenty of room to grow, with a slight edge perhaps to the Shadow 2, but given that I'm looking at round counts closer to the 500 round mark on a good month in my current situation, my personal skill levels will keep that possible performance delta from being noticeable for a fair while longer. I'll probably try and handle a Shadow 2 this coming weekend just to see if it "clicks" for me in the hand the way the P30 did, but I somewhat doubt it will, and the lack of a decocker - which I wasn't aware of previously - is already working against it somewhat. I'll probably end up reaching out to LTT to find out if it's possible to order an Elite with green grips instead of the standard blacks and what serial numbers are available some time in the near future.

[GuanoLoco]

Maybe skip the guns and buy some ammo/range time to shoot USPSA more regularly?

Your HK's will probably be just fine. Honestly.

But, since you asked:



Both are sweet shooters with lots of parts, crap, etc to pimp 'em out how you want.

As many mentioned before: The S2 is pure competition gun with no decocker and a very heavy all steel frame.
The cat's meow is to get someone like Matt Mink at Automatic Accuracy to put a short resetting trigger in there. Pure competition goodness.
Don't worry about the parts reliability issue, bro: If you're not dry firing it for an hour a day and running 1000 rounds a week through it, you'll be fine. When you hit that mark and start slaying it at the local matches, you'll be so deep into the sport that the hour of monthly maintenance will be nothing compared to the time you spend reloading all your ammo. Your wife will probably have strong words for you either way about how the lawn isn't getting mowed, you're not saving enough, and "why are you gone all the time!?!". I.E. You'll have other karmic problems to deal with.

The LTT92 is nice, multi-purpose gun built for people who really like Berettas. (I don't hesitate to carry a 92 for games and as CCW)

You really can't go wrong with either.

Personally? I love my Beretta pistols: They've realiable, safe, shoot well, the skills transfer from games-to-steet since I pretty much shoot the same gun in competition that I carry. I shot the CZ Shadow (the older one) and had my best season in USPSA with it - I'd be lying if I didn't say that I had some issues, but I was probably running the ragged edge of what is acceptable useage for a pistol with high round counts, hectic maintenance, etc. I didn't like the fact that the carry gun that CZ offered was too radically different than the gun I used in competition (CZ BD compact vs Shadow) and that was one of the key reasons I shifted back to a Beretta. That just my story. YMMV.

Proof that both work:


Dayum. I think my fastest El Prez was 4.5 - just completing the mechanics sub-4s is impressive, ignoring quality of hits.

[Sal Picante]

Dayum. I think my fastest El Prez was 4.5 - just completing the mechanics sub-4s is impressive, ignoring quality of hits.

Thread drift: There is value in going fast... When you finally go slower, time just seems more available. LOL. My fastest with decent hits is just over 4...

[Sal Picante]

I'll probably try and handle a Shadow 2 this coming weekend just to see if it "clicks" for me in the hand the way the P30 did, but I somewhat doubt it will, and the lack of a decocker - which I wasn't aware of previously - is already working against it somewhat. I'll probably end up reaching out to LTT to find out if it's possible to order an Elite with green grips instead of the standard blacks and what serial numbers are available some time in the near future.

Yeah - the Tanfo's and CZ's need a "hammer pinch" technique like "the cowboy", "the SlaveX roll", or "the pinch" to start in DA for production. For Limited, cocked and locked.

The P30L is a sweet pistol. I love the way it shoots, but hate the magazine release. Honestly, I'm not trying to steal bread off of Ernest or Bill Wilson's table, but you might strongly consider ponying up for a class with a decent coach and putting money into a reloader if you plan on getting more into USPSA.

That said, they do make Green grips for the Beretta:

https://shopwilsoncombat.com/Wilson-Combat-G10-Grips-ULTRA-THIN-with-WC-Logo-Dirty-Olive-Beretta-92_96/productinfo/728%2DFS%2DUT%2DDO/
https://lokgrips.com
https://vzgrips.com

Don't forget a Pepperoni sight on the Beretta too... ;)

[YVK]

Having shot all three mentioned guns in competition, the 30L, the Beretta(not LTT but E2, but I own a full house LTT B92), and CZC Shadow 2, my take is that the answer is not in what gun does what better etc. At some point, the guns matter less. I picked up a Glock after not shooting one since 2011, dry-fired for a couple of months and ran my first classifier at nearly exact percentage of my USPSA classification that I got to with 2 years of Tanfos and CZs. At the same time same people who have been kicking my ass locally still kick my ass, shooting Glocks, CZs, Tanfos, Berettas etc.

I think the answer is in how your brain is wired. Going with Shadow 2 or Tanfo achieves the following: you know that there isn't really a better purpose built gun for Production so you forget about the gun. Gun's out of the consideration, it is all 100% you now, so you just work on your skills.

B92 is a great gun, although that dual purpose that people mentioned... I know people do it. I have CCW'd both Elite II and regular width B92, the conceal great, but 37 oz unloaded with 5 inch bbl double stack in my pants lasted less than a year. But I digress. B92 has slightly worse sights, slightly worse trigger (subjective), 20% less mass, tighter magwell.
If you can ignore those things mentally, you can shoot it all the way to top 10 in the nation, but it doesn't give you the same "I can't have a better gun so it is all on me" as Shadow 2 does.

P30L is more practical but less shootable version of B92. I don't regret shooting it, I wouldn't do it again.

[willie]

I started riding the CZ train years ago. The 75 series pistols are reliable. Other than the trigger return spring, I would not be concerned about parts breakage. Light strikes occur when the hammer spring is replaced with one that is too light. Also I ride the Beretta train and place Beretta 92 pistols above the CZ 75 series. I prefer CZ decockers as opposed to da/sa versions. The CZ PCR has soul. You need both brands to have a complete collection.

[Trooper224]

For a dedicated competition gun the CZ is the best choice. I regret selling the two I had. If a multipurpose pistol is the goal I'd give the nod to the LTT.