"Serious Use" Shotguns and Chokes

[Unobtanium]

I bought the pistol grip stock LE only version from a dealer about a month ago. Has all the Gen 2 features minus the barrel with interchangeable chokes. When I asked Beretta customer service why their website listed the barrel had a choke of OCHP, they said the LE version only comes in cylinder bore. They said their website had OCHP listed as a choke because that's the diameter bore they make the barrel as opposed to the Mobilchoke diameter. I didn't quite understand the point seeing as the LE version has Gen 2 everything except the barrel and it's listed on their site with a choke.

Serious use shotguns shouldn't have chokes.

[e_stern]

Serious use shotguns shouldn't have chokes.

That is the prevailing opinion, although I personally strongly disagree with it.

[Unobtanium]

That is the prevailing opinion, although I personally strongly disagree with it.


Why?

Since I asked you, here is my "why"


-I use Flite Control buckshot. It does terrible out of ANY choke. There is no buckshot that holds a tighter pattern no-matter what fancy choke you use, than Flite Control through a CYL bore. If I want more spread, say, for in my house only, I'll use non FC buckshot.
-I also use slugs. Slugs shoot just fine out of a CYL bore.
-Chokes can and do come loose, and can and do become secondary projectiles.
-Even when chokes don't come loose, they will accrue fouling faster and degrade slug accuracy and buckshot patterns faster than a straight-wall bore. Especially because they are near the muzzle where velocity is highest.
-Choke tubes can become frozen in the gun if you're lazy or ignorant.
-Changing chokes can and will change your POI, so to argue the versatility line, you need to accept re-zeroing every time you change a choke, for optimal performance, and isn't a choke about optimal performance for a certain load?
-Gamers who only shoot 3G birdshot have a legit need for a choke, usually LM.

[TCinVA]

-I use Flite Control buckshot. It does terrible out of ANY choke. There is no buckshot that holds a tighter pattern no-matter what fancy choke you use, than Flite Control through a CYL bore. If I want more spread, say, for in my house only, I'll use non FC buckshot.


Everybody doesn't use FFC, though. Especially in LE. Some people/organizations prefer to use more traditionally wadded buckshot in concert with a choke that yields a better pattern than cylinder bore.



-I also use slugs. Slugs shoot just fine out of a CYL bore.


True...they work pretty good out of improved cylinder and modified, too. At least in my guns.



-Chokes can and do come loose, and can and do become secondary projectiles.
-Even when chokes don't come loose, they will accrue fouling faster and degrade slug accuracy and buckshot patterns faster than a straight-wall bore. Especially because they are near the muzzle where velocity is highest.
-Choke tubes can become frozen in the gun if you're lazy or ignorant.


All maintenance issues. Valid maintenance issues, but choices are usually about picking downsides. Lots of people would prefer to have those potential maintenance issues if they can get better accountability for their patterns.



-Changing chokes can and will change your POI, so to argue the versatility line, you need to accept re-zeroing every time you change a choke, for optimal performance, and isn't a choke about optimal performance for a certain load?


That depends on your gun. On the Wingmaster I had Wilson cut for Remchokes, I can change from the modified that's in the gun to a cylinder choke without impact to how my buckshot shoots.

That being said I expect most people will put a choke in there and leave it alone. They just want something a little bit better for their use than cylinder bore and the easiest way to accomplish that is with screw-in chokes.

[Unobtanium]

Everybody doesn't use FFC, though. Especially in LE. Some people/organizations prefer to use more traditionally wadded buckshot in concert with a choke that yields a better pattern than cylinder bore.



True...they work pretty good out of improved cylinder and modified, too. At least in my guns.



All maintenance issues. Valid maintenance issues, but choices are usually about picking downsides. Lots of people would prefer to have those potential maintenance issues if they can get better accountability for their patterns.



That depends on your gun. On the Wingmaster I had Wilson cut for Remchokes, I can change from the modified that's in the gun to a cylinder choke without impact to how my buckshot shoots.

That being said I expect most people will put a choke in there and leave it alone. They just want something a little bit better for their use than cylinder bore and the easiest way to accomplish that is with screw-in chokes.


While I respect your opinion, I disagree. Its nice that Beretta sells a gun that meets the needs of either camp.

[e_stern]

Tim essentially put everything I'd say to words already.

I can say from having dealt with a number of agencies firsthand already re: 1301, many of them do not run FC. Without FC you will see a significant improvement in patterning with a tighter choke.

[Unobtanium]

Tim essentially put everything I'd say to words already.

I can say from having dealt with a number of agencies firsthand already re: 1301, many of them do not run FC. Without FC you will see a significant improvement in patterning with a tighter choke.


I understand and agree. How many people in this thread are their agencies purchasing contact vs. "bought this gun for myself" though? I'd tend to think if you're the purchasing agent, you might could steer the buckshot train as well. If you "bought it for yourself"...buy FC. So I'm failing to see the argument, here, from an end-user standpoint. If championing "other people" though, maybe the LE dept will just buy CIV guns? Problem solved.

[Cory]

I've never seen chokes as a down side. I'm sure they could fly off but I've never seen it. Even average attention to maintence seems to take care of preventing catastrophe.

I honestly think the 1301T could serve as a "social" gun and probably a turkey gun as well now that it has chokes.

-Cory

[4gallonbucket]

I've never seen chokes as a down side. I'm sure they could fly off but I've never seen it. Even average attention to maintence seems to take care of preventing catastrophe.

I honestly think the 1301T could serve as a "social" gun and probably a turkey gun as well now that it has chokes.

-Cory

EXACTLY. I think this would make a great turkey gun. I want to see one with a rattle can camo job.


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[Lester Polfus]

That is the prevailing opinion, although I personally strongly disagree with it.

I both agree and disagree with it.

If by "serious use" we mean a shotgun that will be issued in a military or LE setting, ride around in a patrol car/HUMVEE, and be handled by people who could break a blacksmith anvil after first getting it pregnant, then the shotgun should have a fixed choke.

My own personal shotgun? It has interchangeable chokes. Of all the personal firearms I've owned since I hung up the super suit, it has come the closest to seeing "serious use" but the guy decided to leave.

While I certainly prefer to use Flight Control buckshot, I've gotten near equivalent patterns out of Remington Express by changing the choke in the gun.

[JHC]

EXACTLY. I think this would make a great turkey gun. I want to see one with a rattle can camo job.


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Grabagun has a factory camo gun for $771.
I checked and they confirmed it is 2018 production "with the updates".

[ECVMatt]

I am just going to be honest and admit that I shoot my hunting shotguns a lot more than my defensive ones.

I really like shooting shotguns and have been shooting them for the last 30 years or so.

I also like to hunt quail and chukar in the desert and have driven many untold miles in search of them and just plain old fun in general. I have not had a problem with chokes coming loose, falling out, or getting stuck. I do check them occasionally and I really like to be able to adjust my pattern. I have found that different loads react differently to different chokes. It is very interesting to shoot your hunting loads through various chokes and see what happens. Sometimes the results seem counterintuitive.

So as a user of defensive shotguns for home defense, camp protection, and mostly fun, I like chokes. Even if the world ended today and I had to pick between the same shotgun with or without chokes, I would grab the one with chokes. It would be more versatile in the long run.

[ASH556]

Too often I think folks try to dumb down the shotgun as a beginners weapon or troglodyte stick. I think it's quite the opposite. The shotgun is very much an enthusiasts weapon. The only gun lower capacity than a shotgun is a revolver (or a muzzle-loader I guess), so you need to be proficient at loading it, which is it's own exercise in dexterity. Manual of arms offers lots of opportunity for doing wrong and inducing malfunctions. They're usually picky with ammo, patterning, and POI, even from gun to gun.

I love shotguns, but because they're an enthusiast's weapon, I'd rather have chokes so I have the opportunity to tune it to my desired use.

[ubervic]

I have zero experience with defensive-use shotguns or ammo. On the other hand, I shot skeet and clays for over 20 years, where chokes----either fixed or removable----are definitely the standard, including 'Cylinder' chokes.

I fully understand that shooting moving clay targets at an average distance of 20 yds does not compare with the use of defensive shotguns against active threats. Still, I struggle to see how chokes would bring any negative impact. After all, chokes simply tune your pattern density for any given load to the intended target distance.

[willie]

At least one shotgun specialist offers a permanently installed choke tube. Those of us who own several shotguns might have the luxury of selecting one without choke tubes if that were our preference. Or the man with only one shotgun could buy an extra barrel and have it both ways. Once I forgot to replace a choke tube after cleaning, and shot doves with it at least once. I noticed that my hitting had improved, and then I found out that I was shooting the gun without a choke tube. Not my intent. I didn't fret too much about damage because a shotgun competition guru of that time shot in competition without a tube installed. I don't recommend doing that.

[farscott]

I may be confused, but there seem to be two topics: the proper choke constriction for a "serious" shotgun and whether choke tubes are needed. Those two items seem to be conflated in the discussion.

I am a strong believer in the former and indifferent on the latter. My preferred choke constriction is Modified, and I can adjust patterns by choosing loads with harder or softer shot. Harder shot provides patterns closer to "Full choke" and softer shot provides patterns closer to "Improved Cylinder". Modified choke in the 870 also allows slugs to be used in Remington barrels with no concerns about too much constriction.

Since Remington only offers 870P barrels with fixed "Improved Cylinder" or "Cylinder" choke constriction and I usually cannot get FC loads, I have spent a lot of time selecting loads that pattern with those constrictions and settled on IC. While each gun is a bit different, promo #00 Buck loads that are on sale at this time of the year pattern with closer to Cylinder percentages out of my 870P guns while premium loads are closer to Improved Modified percentages. The soft shot in promo loads is too soft and tends to produce flyers, so I would not recommend using that ammo.

In any event, the pattern board is a great tool for load selection.

[TGS]

True...they work pretty good out of improved cylinder and modified, too. At least in my guns.

Does that hold true for hardened sligs as well, like the Brenneke or Truball DP? I thought those + chokes were a no-go.

[OlongJohnson]

https://www.brennekeusa.com/service/faq/


The purpose of the ribs on the outside diameter of the slug (with the exception of the 3- inch Gold Magnum/Magnum Crush and the all brass Super Sabot which are designed for rifle barrel shotguns only) allows them, unlike most competitors slugs, to be used with any choke. As the slug passes through the three constricted areas, inside of the barrel, the Forcing Cone, Inside Bore, and then the Choke, the excess lead is squeezed into the gaps between the ribs with no damage to the barrel. Somewhat better accuracy may be noted when using the more open choke - Improved Cylinder.

[Lon]

Does that hold true for hardened sligs as well, like the Brenneke or Truball DP? I thought those + chokes were a no-go.

I’ve used both with mod chokes during gun games. Many times.

[TCinVA]

Does that hold true for hardened sligs as well, like the Brenneke or Truball DP? I thought those + chokes were a no-go.

I've fired a few dozen out of the Federal Tru-Ball DP slugs from my 870 with the Improved Cylinder with no noticeable impact on accuracy. Same for my Wilson customized gun with a modified RemChoke in it.

I haven't fired any Brenneke brand slugs through my guns, but I've used some other Brenneke style slugs from Fiocchi without noting any accuracy issues.

The Federal TBDP's are pretty potent on the recoil side of things, but that's true from my cylinder bore 870's too.

Every gun is different, of course, but on my choked guns I haven't seen any problems.

[sharps54]

Another consideration is ammunition availability, if you avoid interchangeable chokes because you plan on using FC what is your plan when marketing makes a stupid decision and discontinues it?

[Norville]

Another consideration is ammunition availability, if you avoid interchangeable chokes because you plan on using FC what is your plan when marketing makes a stupid decision and discontinues it?

Flight control is an excellent software solution to a hardware problem. I’m a big fan, but recognize that some day soon I may not be able to acquire it, so interchangeable chokes are a great option once my supply is exhausted. See my FC#1 thread...

[Unobtanium]

Does that hold true for hardened sligs as well, like the Brenneke or Truball DP? I thought those + chokes were a no-go.

Federal told me they "would not advise it, but if it damages your gun it will be over time, not a catastrophic event".

I simply use ammo to tailor the performance, and a CYL choke gives me the most widest range of tailoring.

Another poster here said they use pellet hardness AND chokes. Well, with buckshot you have 3% antimony from Remington, and 6% from Hornady and around 5% from Winchester. Federal/LEVista I believe is probably around 3-5%, as well. I can use cheap buckshot from a CYL bore, or I can use FC buckshot from a CYL bore, but you can't use FC buckshot from any kind of choke that will make it pattern TIGHTER than it does from a CYL bore, and you can't get tighter buckshot patterns through any choke than FC offers that will ALSO shoot a slug. To me, the choke is like a carburetor. Give me fuel injection.

[Aray]

Federal told me they "would not advise it, but if it damages your gun it will be over time, not a catastrophic event".

I simply use ammo to tailor the performance, and a CYL choke gives me the most widest range of tailoring.

Another poster here said they use pellet hardness AND chokes. Well, with buckshot you have 3% antimony from Remington, and 6% from Hornady and around 5% from Winchester. Federal/LEVista I believe is probably around 3-5%, as well. I can use cheap buckshot from a CYL bore, or I can use FC buckshot from a CYL bore, but you can't use FC buckshot from any kind of choke that will make it pattern TIGHTER than it does from a CYL bore, and you can't get tighter buckshot patterns through any choke than FC offers that will ALSO shoot a slug. To me, the choke is like a carburetor. Give me fuel injection.

I understand that you don't prefer a choke, but I don't understand why you made the statement that no defensive shotgun should have one.

[03RN]

I really don't care either way.

[Unobtanium]

I understand that you don't prefer a choke, but I don't understand why you made the statement that no defensive shotgun should have one.

I said "Serious use shotgun". If you have a turkey gun that you also use for home defense, then I'd say you have a turkey gun that you use for home defense...it's not "a serious use gun". When I use that term, I mean a gun that is only going to see buck and slug, because it only has ONE JOB. Now, mind you, I am not at all knocking the guy who uses his turkey gun for HD, or using chokes in it at all. I am simply saying for a hard use, serious use gun, I don't think chokes are good.

[vaspence]

I said "Serious use shotgun". If you have a turkey gun that you also use for home defense, then I'd say you have a turkey gun that you use for home defense...it's not "a serious use gun". When I use that term, I mean a gun that is only going to see buck and slug, because it only has ONE JOB. Now, mind you, I am not at all knocking the guy who uses his turkey gun for HD, or using chokes in it at all. I am simply saying for a hard use, serious use gun, I don't think chokes are good.


I think serious use is defined by experience of the user. The shotgun to me is the multitool of the firearms world and choke tubes make it easier to get an accurate pattern. How would you define hard, serious use?

[RevolverRob]

but you can't use FC buckshot from any kind of choke that will make it pattern TIGHTER than it does from a CYL bore, and you can't get tighter buckshot patterns through any choke than FC offers that will ALSO shoot a slug.

How many chokes have you tried with FC Buckshot?

This seems like an interesting thread for GJM and Dagga Boy to weigh in on.

Replaceable chokes, in my opinion, offer versatility that a fixed choke gun doesn't. I can pick up virtually any load of buckshot, anywhere, and tailor my gun to shoot it, by patterning it and adjusting the choke as necessary, to meet my needs.

That said, flitecontrol can make this mostly irrelevant, however, I've yet to find a reliable local source for flitecontrol. I also am a fan of full power buckshot, not reduced recoil. Which means I've settled on the 8-pellet Hornady TAP 'Lite Magnum' versatite load, which is even harder to find than FC. So, I just opt for whatever full-power 8-pellet 00 load I can find by the case and tailor the shotgun to the load.

PS: My opinion and mine alone. I'd rather tune the gun to run the available shells than rely on a steady supply of a specific shell type. To take on the carburetor/fuel injection analogy - screw-in chokes may require the end user to adjust the fuel-air ratio, but they allow infinitely more variation than a fixed choke gun does. Which is precisely what FI does, it varies more readily across the spectrum of inputs (fuel and air) to optimize than a carburetor does. Really, the fixed choke + FC is the carburetor in this equation, because a good carb tune works best at one elevation, one fairly consistent A/F ratio, and on one consistent fuel type. Where as FI can take variable inputs and create an optimum output with minimal work from the end user. Screwing in or out a choke takes seconds, it's not difficult. ;)

[GJM]

I have definite opinions about slugs, as in go Brenneke 2.75 Classic Magnums, but my buck knowledge is limited to my Vang fixed barrels all shot eight pellet Remington LE buck well, and now everyone seems to use Federal FC.

[TGS]

Question here: What do you guys need a steady supply of your actual HD/duty/"carry" load for?

Aren't you doing the same thing as your pistols and rifles and buying a case, verifying function, POI, stoking it and keeping the rest as spares while using a cheap generic load for practice? For any of you that feel the need for a steady supply of FC to make it a worthwhile choice, are you practicing exclusively with your HD/duty/"carry" load?

[Unobtanium]

I think serious use is defined by experience of the user. The shotgun to me is the multitool of the firearms world and choke tubes make it easier to get an accurate pattern. How would you define hard, serious use?

500+ round per day training, riding around in a cruiser or Humvee, etc.

[Unobtanium]

Question here: What do you guys need a steady supply of your actual HD/duty/"carry" load for?

Aren't you doing the same thing as your pistols and rifles and buying a case, verifying function, POI, stoking it and keeping the rest as spares while using a cheap generic load for practice? For any of you that feel the need for a steady supply of FC to make it a worthwhile choice, are you practicing exclusively with your HD/duty/"carry" load?

FC is similar in price to most other decent buckshot, so if youre going to train with buckshot, why not train with it, as its performance is unique.

[TGS]

FC is similar in price to most other decent buckshot, so if youre going to train with buckshot, why not train with it, as its performance is unique.

I get "why not train with it"....hey, smoke'em if you got'em…..but given even most high-end shotgun instructors conduct the majority of their training with birdshot, not even buck, I guess I'm not seeing why it's necessary to make it your primary training round and make such a requirement for selecting it to be the load you need to realistically have a whole 10 rounds of on-hand to feed your shotgun.

[Unobtanium]

I get "why not train with it"....hey, smoke'em if you got'em…..but given even most high-end shotgun instructors conduct the majority of their training with birdshot, not even buck, I guess I'm not seeing why it's necessary to make it your primary training round and make such a requirement for selecting it to be the load you need to realistically have a whole 10 rounds of on-hand to feed your shotgun.

I've not taken a shotgun course, but on my own range I shoot out to 25 yards with buckshot, and beyond, and birdshot would pepper the whole target at that range even holding off of it.

[RevolverRob]

Question here: What do you guys need a steady supply of your actual HD/duty/"carry" load for?

Aren't you doing the same thing as your pistols and rifles and buying a case, verifying function, POI, stoking it and keeping the rest as spares while using a cheap generic load for practice? For any of you that feel the need for a steady supply of FC to make it a worthwhile choice, are you practicing exclusively with your HD/duty/"carry" load?

If you're using FC/Versatite to solve your shotgun patterning problems - yes you should be training exclusively with it. Because it has unique characteristics where there is no (cheap) birdshot stand-in for it. The closest would be Blackcloud which uses the FC wad. If you're running a cylinder choke shotgun and using FC to keep the pellets on the paper to 25-yards, switching to birdshot for training out to distance is not going to work.

Which is maybe why chokes are sometimes useful? If you run an 8-pellet buck through an IMOD choke and get an acceptable pattern at 25, you'll almost certainly get an acceptable pattern in #7.5 or #8 birdshot through the same choke from one of the various loads available. You know, kind of like shooting 147-grain HST and 147-grain AE through the same handgun.

Since shotguns are picky and load specific, I'd think a tool that allows you to tune the shotgun better would be ideal, but hey I've been wrong before. :rolleyes:

[Unobtanium]

If you're using FC/Versatite to solve your shotgun patterning problems - yes you should be training exclusively with it. Because it has unique characteristics where there is no (cheap) birdshot stand-in for it. The closest would be Blackcloud which uses the FC wad. If you're running a cylinder choke shotgun and using FC to keep the pellets on the paper to 25-yards, switching to birdshot for training out to distance is not going to work.

Which is maybe why chokes are sometimes useful? If you run an 8-pellet buck through an IMOD choke and get an acceptable pattern at 25, you'll almost certainly get an acceptable pattern in #7.5 or #8 birdshot through the same choke from one of the various loads available. You know, kind of like shooting 147-grain HST and 147-grain AE through the same handgun.

Since shotguns are picky and load specific, I'd think a tool that allows you to tune the shotgun better would be ideal, but hey I've been wrong before. :rolleyes:

Even with a MOD choked gun, you're going to be peppering targets at 25 yards and 1 of 2 things will happen.

1) The pattern will compensate for poor aim, and when you inspect the target, a "miss" with buckshot will look like a decent peripheral or even COM hit with birdshot.
2) The pattern will be disperse enough that you won't get the instant feed-back you want if using steel.

I guess you could use a turkey type choke to train with.

[Hambo]

Replaceable chokes, in my opinion, offer versatility that a fixed choke gun doesn't. I can pick up virtually any load of buckshot, anywhere, and tailor my gun to shoot it, by patterning it and adjusting the choke as necessary, to meet my needs.

All barrels are not created equal, and barrels from the same manufacturer with the same fixed choke can shoot FC differently. I know because I have a pair that don't pattern the same. One of them is going to get reamed for tubes.

[Lester Polfus]

I use a mixture of birdshot and my chosen buck and slugs when practicing. I particularly find it useful to use my chosen buckshot load when practicing at the back half of the "B" zone for example.

I also swap the ready service ammo in, and on two shotguns in the spring and fall when the time changes, so there's about 50 rounds or so a year.

[vaspence]

500+ round per day training, riding around in a cruiser or Humvee, etc.

If you are shooting 500 rounds per day to train with buckshot my hat is off to you and your shotgun (and your wallet!). No disrespect intended at all, like I said everyones definition is different. My shoulder would be mush at the end of that day and I actually enjoy shooting shotguns.

[willie]

Some may not know that choke tubes are also available in cylinder constriction. Also some brands offer rifled tubes for slug shooting. Skeet choke tubes are one constriction level below improved cylinder. Tubes marked skeet 2 are between improved cylinder and modified.

Some brands can be interchanged. Mossberg and Browning are examples. But Browning makes two sizes.Their Plus chokes intended for back bored barrels do not interchange. Cross reference charts showing all brands are available. I like Trulock chokes. The company makes tubes fitting different gun brands. It's a family owned company.

[RevolverRob]

Even with a MOD choked gun, you're going to be peppering targets at 25 yards and 1 of 2 things will happen.

1) The pattern will compensate for poor aim, and when you inspect the target, a "miss" with buckshot will look like a decent peripheral or even COM hit with birdshot.
2) The pattern will be disperse enough that you won't get the instant feed-back you want if using steel.

I guess you could use a turkey type choke to train with.

An IMOD choked shotgun should be able to put 100% of the pellets into a 20" circle at 25 yards, without issue. You can get a tighter pattern using lower velocity or plated shot, eventually you should be able to get between 10-15" pattern with cheapo birdshot from a choked shotgun. 00 buck from IMOD should get you 6-10" at 25 yards.

Flite Control will not pattern well from choked guns because the choke constriction will cause the pellets to smash into one another and cause pellet deformity, which is what causes the lame accuracy from FC from choked guns.

[nalesq]

Flite Control will not pattern well from choked guns because the choke constriction will cause the pellets to smash into one another and cause pellet deformity, which is what causes the lame accuracy from FC from choked guns.

I have two fixed mod choked shotguns and the FC patterns out of them are similar enough to the FC patterns out of my two fixed cylinder bore shotguns that I would hardly call it “lame accuracy.”

On the other hand, most non FC buck (e.g., the el cheapo S&B buck that is commonly available) definitely patterns better out of my mod guns.





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[TCinVA]

Question here: What do you guys need a steady supply of your actual HD/duty/"carry" load for?

Aren't you doing the same thing as your pistols and rifles and buying a case, verifying function, POI, stoking it and keeping the rest as spares while using a cheap generic load for practice? For any of you that feel the need for a steady supply of FC to make it a worthwhile choice, are you practicing exclusively with your HD/duty/"carry" load?

I shoot a fair bit of FFC in class and I end up giving some away to students in every class so they can see how it does in their guns and/or shoot the 15 yard portion of the qual with it.

I typically practice with heavy game loads in my guns and most of the buckshot I shoot is cheap S&B. The stuff I shoot the most of actually recoils more than the LE FFC loads I use.

I can see practicing with it at extended distances (over 15 yards) but I tend to work primarily on manipulations and speed at ~ 10-12 yards and do distance work with slugs. I don't shoot it very much in my personal practice. Outside of classes I mainly consume it when I'm testing a new gun or re-zeroing a gun because the loc-tite on the sights gave up the ghost.

[TCinVA]

If you are shooting 500 rounds per day to train with buckshot my hat is off to you and your shotgun (and your wallet!). No disrespect intended at all, like I said everyones definition is different. My shoulder would be mush at the end of that day and I actually enjoy shooting shotguns.

Dude...push/pull. I got to get you in class. You can fire 300+ rounds in a day without even the slightest tenderness in the shoulder.

[vaspence]

Dude...push/pull. I got to get you in class. You can fire 300+ rounds in a day without even the slightest tenderness in the shoulder.

I keep watching your schedule and it is highest on my list, the dates just haven't worked out yet. I'm in as soon as it does!

[willie]

All my shotguns with regular buckshot(brand name)fired through modified chokes gave very tight patterns at 25 yards. S&B buckshot is an exception. With birdshot fired through same at 25 yards, the pattern for me resembles full choke patterns because the shot in either does not begin spreading until about 30 yards. That's my experience. High velocity and small shot will spread more. I described my experience. A safe generalization that much variation exists in barrel, choke tubes, and ammo. If you don't test what you have, then you don't know. Usually.

[RevolverRob]

One, serious, issue with shotguns is variation from barrel to barrel in nominal diameter. Most American made shotguns have a diameter of about 0.73", but most Euro blasters (Berettas and Benellis) have ~0.728" - That may not seem like a lot, until one remembers that a full choke creates a restriction of 0.03". Which in turn places most cylinder-choke (.000 non-restricted) Euro guns into the realm of Mod-choked American gun.

Which returns us back to the point that you must pattern your shotgun with your ammo, whatever you decide on. Personally, I like my guns to hit POA/POI with my chosen defensive and practice loads, whatever they are. I've got no problem running a choke in a gun to get it where I want it, it's the same as adjusting sights to me. I've not seen any significant evidence that suggests that chokes are a no-go in a "serious"/"hard use" gun. In fact, quite the contrary, I have a hard time imagining anyone running their shotguns harder that clay bird shooters/upland hunters or 3-gunners and screw-in chokes are the absolute norm for those folks and their guns.

[Aray]

I've not seen any significant evidence that suggests that chokes are a no-go in a "serious"/"hard use" gun. In fact, quite the contrary, I have a hard time imagining anyone running their shotguns harder that clay bird shooters/upland hunters or 3-gunners and screw-in chokes are the absolute norm for those folks and their guns.

Agree. It sounds more like "Onions don't belong on serious sandwiches because I don't like onions."

[4gallonbucket]

One, serious, issue with shotguns is variation from barrel to barrel in nominal diameter. Most American made shotguns have a diameter of about 0.73", but most Euro blasters (Berettas and Benellis) have ~0.728" - That may not seem like a lot, until one remembers that a full choke creates a restriction of 0.03". Which in turn places most cylinder-choke (.000 non-restricted) Euro guns into the realm of Mod-choked American gun.

Which returns us back to the point that you must pattern your shotgun with your ammo, whatever you decide on. Personally, I like my guns to hit POA/POI with my chosen defensive and practice loads, whatever they are. I've got no problem running a choke in a gun to get it where I want it, it's the same as adjusting sights to me. I've not seen any significant evidence that suggests that chokes are a no-go in a "serious"/"hard use" gun. In fact, quite the contrary, I have a hard time imagining anyone running their shotguns harder that clay bird shooters/upland hunters or 3-gunners and screw-in chokes are the absolute norm for those folks and their guns.

I think you’re missing the last decimal. Yes 12 ga bores can range from about 0.725” to about 0.750” or more for “backbored” barrels. I believe there’s a Mossburg that’s around 0.780” - basically a 10ga diameter. My Browning Gold has a 0.740” bore. For any barrel though, the choke is measured against the bore to which it’s attached. Improved Cyl. Chokes generally reduce bore diameter by 0.010”, modified by 0.020”, and Full chokes are generally 0.030”. The reduction in diameter would be specific to the barrel. So a Remington (0.730” bore) modified choke would measure 0.710” and my Browning (0.740” bore) modified choke measures 0.720”


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[jetfire]

I've not taken a shotgun course,

This is my shocked face

[Unobtanium]

This is my shocked face

Yeah, i need to, but so far I treat the shotgun like a big carbine. Same manual of arms nearly and its worked just fine, with the exception of "if youre not shooting, be loading". Mag capacity seems to be about the only difference. Malfunction clearance drill is VERY slightly different (you don't check to see if the mag is seated), but otherwise it's just "Rack, Bang."

In fact, the other day I had a shell that was charged light, as best I can tell. Had no expectation of this failure coming. Treated it just like a carbine that couldn't have mag issues.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTRHGf2VxAM

[Lon]

I was teaching at the police academy this week. I always bring my shotgun (an 870 Super Express) that’s been modified and vang comped for cadets to use if they are struggling with the old POS shotguns the academy has. It’s got screw in chokes. I checked the choke when I got home tonight and it was nice and snug. It’s had hundreds of heavy bird shot/00 buck and slugs through it this week without a hiccup and without the choke coming loose.

This is the second academy class I’ve done that with. Never been an issue with the chokes.

[RevolverRob]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTRHGf2VxAM

Why are you dressed like a garbage man?

[Unobtanium]

Why are you dressed like a garbage man?

Layers. Mobility. Simple and works. In cold weather i put Wiggy's netting gear under it. In warm weather its light enough with a t shirt and boxers, unlike a nomex. Just my preference and what works. Think about what a garbage man does. Inclement weather. Physical exertion. Heat and or cold.

[Lester Polfus]

This isn't my first rodeo with this question, and I should probably add it to my list of "shit I don't argue about on the internet."

I've had a choke in my "serious use" shotgun for six years now, with zero issues. Like I said before, I wouldn't want them in agency issued weapons, but my personal shotgun has neither launched its choke down range nor has it "accumulated fouling" nor caused any other issues. After shooting I run some patches through the barrel and check the tightness of the choke. It's never loosened ever firing, nor has it gotten loose sitting in my locked gun cabinet or while I was walking around the property with the shotgun.

I think reasonable minds can differ about the value added by interchangeable chokes in a defensive shotgun, but they aren't the equivalent of carrying a Judge loaded with Glaser Safety Slugs either.

[e_stern]

Grabagun has a factory camo gun for $771.
I checked and they confirmed it is 2018 production "with the updates".

Link?

I seriously doubt it. The ONLY factory camo gun we did was with Viper camo and it was a Gen 1 w/o chokes.

[Cory]

Link?

I seriously doubt it. The ONLY factory camo gun we did was with Viper camo and it was a Gen 1 w/o chokes.

I'm not him, but here is a link: https://grabagun.com/beretta-1301-viper-12-18-5-bl-sy-4-1.html

Looks like the Viper. Shouldnt be Gen 2, but its likely some CS person just got it wrong and said it has the updates. Out of stock at the moment.

-Cory

[Dave Williams]

I spent a few hours with Ernie Tobin at the GPSTC, and he'd had all the facilities' shotguns threaded for modified chokes, was a big believer in the choked shotgun for law enforcement.

[TCinVA]

I spent a few hours with Ernie Tobin at the GPSTC, and he'd had all the facilities' shotguns threaded for modified chokes, was a big believer in the choked shotgun for law enforcement.

Modified is working well for me in my Wilson modified 870.

[2238945]

My 870 has had a Modified RemChoke installed since day 1 (2012 (?)), and I haven't had a problem with any patterning issues through it, with standard and reduced recoil Federal Flite Control 8 and 9 pellet buckshot, Fed Hydrashock standard and reduced recoil slugs, and a number of other various loads such as S&B 9 pellet 00 and slugs. I just try to loosen and re-tighten the choke every time after I shoot it, and I haven't a problem.

If my memory serves me correctly, last I remember, my mod-choked 870 shoots comparably, and sometimes slightly better than my friends and co-workers cylinder bore 870s with the Flite control loads, up to 50 yards.

[03RN]

My 870 has had a Modified RemChoke installed since day 1 (2012 (?)), and I haven't had a problem with any patterning issues through it, with standard and reduced recoil Federal Flite Control 8 and 9 pellet buckshot, Fed Hydrashock standard and reduced recoil slugs, and a number of other various loads such as S&B 9 pellet 00 and slugs. I just try to loosen and re-tighten the choke every time after I shoot it, and I haven't a problem.

If my memory serves me correctly, last I remember, my mod-choked 870 shoots comparably, and sometimes slightly better than my friends and co-workers cylinder bore 870s with the Flite control loads, up to 50 yards.

Interesting. I have a 20" vr barrel for my 500s that I use to hunt with sometimes that lives with a mod choke in it. I should see how it compares

[Lester Polfus]

Interesting. I have a 20" vr barrel for my 500s that I use to hunt with sometimes that lives with a mod choke in it. I should see how it compares

That exact barrel lives on my Walking Around Shotgun and I've had great results with a modified choke.

[Aray]

My Wilson 870 with screw in choke shoots slugs and #1 FC best with C choke, 8 pellet 00 FC best with IC choke, and 9 pellet 00 FC best with Mod choke.

[Hambo]

This isn't my first rodeo with this question, and I should probably add it to my list of "shit I don't argue about on the internet."

Good plan, but it's hard to stay the course. I would put high volume hunting trips under "serious use" because you can easily shoot more heavy loads that you would in a shotgun course. If choke tubes survive that, they'll survive low recoil buckshot.

[JHC]

Data point of one: my 870 is old, like 1960 vintage and it fame with a 28" modified choked barrel ($180 on a used gun rack locally, prolly due to 2 3/4" chamber)

The modified barrel does not pattern as tight or evenly the FFC #1 buck load as the 18.5" cylinder bore barrel I bought for it. Not a major difference but a bit more ragged and wider at 15 and 25 yards.

[Trigger]

Why?

Since I asked you, here is my "why"


-I use Flite Control buckshot. It does terrible out of ANY choke. There is no buckshot that holds a tighter pattern no-matter what fancy choke you use, than Flite Control through a CYL bore. If I want more spread, say, for in my house only, I'll use non FC buckshot.
-I also use slugs. Slugs shoot just fine out of a CYL bore.
-Chokes can and do come loose, and can and do become secondary projectiles.
-Even when chokes don't come loose, they will accrue fouling faster and degrade slug accuracy and buckshot patterns faster than a straight-wall bore. Especially because they are near the muzzle where velocity is highest.
-Choke tubes can become frozen in the gun if you're lazy or ignorant.
-Changing chokes can and will change your POI, so to argue the versatility line, you need to accept re-zeroing every time you change a choke, for optimal performance, and isn't a choke about optimal performance for a certain load?
-Gamers who only shoot 3G birdshot have a legit need for a choke, usually LM.

If you are use removable choke tubes, you really should be installing them with anti-seize or choke tube grease, and use the proper choke wrench. This will prevent the fear of choke tubes coming loose and becoming secondary projectiles as you mention in bullet three.

My experience does not correlate with yours regarding fouling and accuracy degradation as you mention in bullet four. Although I might seem counterintuitive, in my experience at the patterning board, I have not found that longer chokes or choke tubes pattern better than short ones. This goes from Tula chokes to screw-in chokes to choked barrels. The patterning board tends to reveal the differences. I have found straight rifling, as Briley uses in their tubesets, does improve patterns, because it reduces wad rotation in the barrel. More of a birdshot issue than a buckshot issue. Buckshot patterns are more dependent on wad and buffer than birdshot.

You should pattern the gun with your choke tubes. If you experience changing POI as you mention in bullet six, you have concentricity issues that should be addressed. This discussion assumes properly machined barrels and chokes.

[Exiledviking]

I realize this is an older thread, but it hits on my subject.
My Benelli M4 came with a modified choke only. Having read posts online including a response somewhere from Benelli, slugs are not be used in conjunction with a modified choke. I thought that was weird as the Benelli M4 only comes with the modified choke.

I bought a Briley IC choke as I want the flexibility of running either Federal LE133 8 pellet 00 buck (2.75" pre Flite Control) OR Federal LE127 RS (2.75" 1 oz slug). I believe both are reduced recoil rounds.

I spent some time yesterday sighting in the red dot on the M4 using the Briley IC choke and the Federal LE133 00 buck load and the pattern was quite large at 25 yards, probably around 24 inches. I found that to be larger than what I'd hoped for at that distance. My Benelli M1 Super 90 with the factory IC choke would pattern at roughly 10 inches that same distance.
I put one slug thru it at 25 yards to see where it would hit and it hit inside the black of 6 inch center (about 2 inches low and about 2 inches right).

I'd like to see a tighter pattern with the Federal 00 buck out of the M4, but I'm hesitant to use the original modified choke in case I need to run the Federal LE127 rifled slugs thru it.

What do you guys think? OK to run the modified choke with those slugs?

[DDTSGM]

I realize this is an older thread, but it hits on my subject.
My Benelli M4 came with a modified choke only. Having read posts online including a response somewhere from Benelli, slugs are not be used in conjunction with a modified choke. I thought that was weird as the Benelli M4 only comes with the modified choke.

I bought a Briley IC choke as I want the flexibility of running either Federal LE133 8 pellet 00 buck (2.75" pre Flite Control) OR Federal LE127 RS (2.75" 1 oz slug). I believe both are reduced recoil rounds.

I spent some time yesterday sighting in the red dot on the M4 using the Briley IC choke and the Federal LE133 00 buck load and the pattern was quite large at 25 yards, probably around 24 inches. I found that to be larger than what I'd hoped for at that distance. My Benelli M1 Super 90 with the factory IC choke would pattern at roughly 10 inches that same distance.
I put one slug thru it at 25 yards to see where it would hit and it hit inside the black of 6 inch center (about 2 inches low and about 2 inches right).

I'd like to see a tighter pattern with the Federal 00 buck out of the M4, but I'm hesitant to use the original modified choke in case I need to run the Federal LE127 rifled slugs thru it.

What do you guys think? OK to run the modified choke with those slugs?

Most folks say it's okay to run slugs through a modified choke. I've done so.

[Unobtanium]

I realize this is an older thread, but it hits on my subject.
My Benelli M4 came with a modified choke only. Having read posts online including a response somewhere from Benelli, slugs are not be used in conjunction with a modified choke. I thought that was weird as the Benelli M4 only comes with the modified choke.

I bought a Briley IC choke as I want the flexibility of running either Federal LE133 8 pellet 00 buck (2.75" pre Flite Control) OR Federal LE127 RS (2.75" 1 oz slug). I believe both are reduced recoil rounds.

I spent some time yesterday sighting in the red dot on the M4 using the Briley IC choke and the Federal LE133 00 buck load and the pattern was quite large at 25 yards, probably around 24 inches. I found that to be larger than what I'd hoped for at that distance. My Benelli M1 Super 90 with the factory IC choke would pattern at roughly 10 inches that same distance.
I put one slug thru it at 25 yards to see where it would hit and it hit inside the black of 6 inch center (about 2 inches low and about 2 inches right).

I'd like to see a tighter pattern with the Federal 00 buck out of the M4, but I'm hesitant to use the original modified choke in case I need to run the Federal LE127 rifled slugs thru it.

What do you guys think? OK to run the modified choke with those slugs?

Benelli Mod and le127rs are fine.

[gato naranja]

I both agree and disagree with it.

So do I.

My "fool's errand/utility shotgun" quest convinced me that a screw-in choke was the only way to be able to run a kaleidoscope of loads successfully (though it became bewildering), but a fixed choke was administratively and procedurally more sensible for SD/HD. Since I was already done with hunting by that time, a fixed IC barrel was not the handicap it might have been if I was planning to pot turkeys. Nothing since then has changed my mind.

That being said, I now sort of regret gifting away an 870P barrel which had been reworked for RemChoke tubes. It wasn't taking up much space and it had proven fairly versatile, although with some tube/load combinations the rifle-type sights were distractingly not "set and forget"... I ended up converting the rear sight to an express-type shallow "V" before playing the philanthropist, but the front bead was still a bit too fine.

Having both a fixed choke defensive barrel and a choke-tubed "hunting/utility" barrel is a decent solution, with the fixed barrel being the "under the bed and ready to go" BITN/SHTF/TEOTWAWKI/OMG configuration.